David Boies plans to strip teachers of due process rights state by state.

[madfloridian]

I can't begin to fathom how harmful it is to say teachers' due process rights harm civil rights. It is amazing how Boies and Campbell Brown and others are simply getting away with it...the media never questions it.

David Boies, eyeing education through a civil rights lens

David Boies, the superlawyer who chairs a group that is trying to overturn teacher tenure laws in New York and elsewhere, said Monday that his organization is not looking to take the issue to the U.S. Supreme Court — at least not in the short run.

Well, thank goodness for that at least.

Last month, Boies became chairman of the Partnership for Educational Justice, a group founded by former CNN anchor Campbell Brown to challenge teacher tenure laws. The group says that tenure laws make it too costly and difficult to get rid of weak teachers and that poor students are saddled with the worst educators.

A similar group based in California — led by lawyers Ted Olson and Ted Boutrous, with whom Boies worked on the Supreme Court case regarding gay marriage — challenged and won a judgment in a Los Angeles court against that state’s tenure laws. The judge found that tenure laws violate students’ civil rights under the state constitution. The teachers union and Gov. Jerry Brown are appealing.

This is what he plans to do.

Boies said in an interview with The Washington Post that he is crafting a state-by-state strategy regarding teacher tenure because many state constitutions explicitly require the provision of an equal education to all public school students.

All these lawsuits against teachers' due process rights....a hearing before being fired...are putting the blame on teachers for ills that are not their fault at all.

I don't think I could have stood up for the rights of my students if I had not had a continuing contract behind me. That did not mean I could not be fired, but it meant that there had to be just cause.

I could give so many examples. This one stands out because of the child's suffering. A 2nd grader in my class years ago had serious kidney and bladder problems. Because of their religious views the parents would not take him to the doctor for treatment. We even worked out a way they could go now, pay later, but they instead had a violent reaction to our (guidance counselor and I) even talking to them about it.

They threatened to sue me, they were furious. I told them they would have to do what they had to do, but that their child was suffering. I told them of his daily embarrassments and tears. They were not even moved by it. I could take a firm stand because I had tenure (due process)...and even if the principal agreed with them there would have to be just cause. The principal in fact was running scared of a possible religious controversy, not sure how it would have gone.

We had to resolve it through child services.

So to Mr Boies, go ahead with your crusade against teachers' right to due process before being fired. You will probably win because the money, the power, and the media are all on your side.

But the children will have lost. Teachers will fear being advocates for children if they are in a tenuous position with an administration that wants no controversy.

[Jakes Progress]

1. I'm reminded of the haunting song

from the musical "1776". There were the letters begging for help from an embattled George Washington that ended with the refrain:

"Is anybody there? Does anybody care?"

Without a Democratic party to combat this attack on unions and children, what hope is there?

I gave over thirty years of my life to two passions: Education and the Democratic Party. Now I think I will just go out to my shop and build something nice. Maybe show my grandchildren how to carve wood.

I don't see a way out for our children. If your posts on DU and other places don't stir the hearts of Democrats to action, our party is truly a lost cause. I celebrate your determination and zeal in attempting to make a difference. But I feel betrayed and have become cynical. I get thirty emails a day asking me for $5 for this candidate or that. All from a party that is destroying what I loved. I don't even care if it is because they are stupid and really believe the crap they are doing or if they are venal opportunists feathering their campaign nests and future income. The reason not as important as the result. You last paragraph is heartbreakingly true.

[Recursion]

2. OTOH my 7th grade science teacher told us the sun went around the earth

And the most the principal could ever do was recommend her (not require, mind you) for remedial science courses over the summers.

There's got to be a way to solve my problem without exacerbating yours, you know?

[madfloridian]

3. Actually bad teachers CAN be fired. The admins must be ready, must document...

and must be able to show cause.

Yes, bad teachers can be fired. And they are. It takes longer than it should sometimes, but that also falls on administrators.

[Recursion]

4. And in the 6 years it took the principal to exhaust her remediation options

She was still teaching students.

(Also I'll admit this is not entirely a fair comparison because this was Mississippi and racial politics are never very far away from any staffing decision.)

[Starry Messenger]

25. Mississippi has been a right-to-work state since 1960

I don't think excessively strong unions were the problem, only a guess though.

[Recursion]

28. Not in the public schools (nt)

[Starry Messenger]

33. The school unions are more like associations in RTW states. Not very strong.

Open shop never is. Anyway. Sancho's responses downthread cover far more ground and I associate myself with his remarks.

[Recursion]

34. Well, the union certainly kept that teacher from being fired for 6 years

So, I mean, these things do actually happen.

[Starry Messenger]

35. Sorry, didn't mean to upset you, just trying to provide context.

My state had their tenure rights declared unconstitutional, which is going to be replicated in states all over the US. I guess everyone will see how great that will work out.

Hope everyone enjoys the new minimum wage teaching work force, based on the non-union service fast-food model that is coming.

[Recursion]

37. Mississippi was in a weird place

A: this was (sorry, holy crap) 25 years ago

B: at that point it was essentially impossible for a principal to fire a teacher of color for any reason

Like I said before, I realize this isn't a fair comparison to tenure in most public schools, but it's a fairly toxic example I come into the fray with as part of my experience.

[msanthrope]

40. It is an interesting pass at DU...the argument that a right at contract

trumps the civil rights of students. I watch people try to couch that argument into something palatable. No winners, yet.

[Starry Messenger]

41. Test scores are highest in the states with the strongest tenure laws and teachers unions.

In CA, even 25 years ago, I can't think of a single really awful public school teacher from when I went to public high school

I teach now at the same high school that I attended, and it is full of devoted professionals who now have no professional protection, potentially, despite laboring for a decade in a self-created reform effort on a Gates Foundation grant, helping raise and maintain test scores.

No good deed goes unpunished, I guess.

[Recursion]

43. Rich parents believe in those things

And rich parents have kids who score well on tests.

[Starry Messenger]

44. Well. That seems rather a non-sequitor.

"Because of San Mateo County’s high cost of living, comparisons with the federal poverty threshold can be misleading. In 2006, a family of three in San Mateo County needed household earnings of $66,442 to be self sufficient. More than one-third of households earned less than that level of income. In 2007, the self-sufficiency level increased to $71,827."

http://www.sustainablesanmateo.org/home/indicators/2008-indicators-report/economy-income-distribution-and-poverty/

This is where I teach though. The rich parents put their kids in private here.

[dsc]

98. I call bs

I worked in MS in the mid and late 1990's. We had two professional associations (no unions) and not everyone belonged to either one. Whatever else may have been behind that teacher keeping her job, it wasn't a strong union or for that matter any union at all.

[HuckleB]

62. And must do it repeatedly, over time, while spending resources to "help" the teacher.

It can take forever, all the while an entire class can go through a year with zero curriculum. And even if the teacher leaves the school, she/he usually ends up at another school.

We are still going through this process. It has been unbelievable.

[adigal]

78. In NY, it takes two Holt letters

Holt letters are letters of counsel that a principal puts into a teacher's file. The second one triggers the hearings to remove a teacher. Most principals don't utilize this. That is not the teacher's fault.

[BrotherIvan]

5. I hope you don't mean that every teacher deserves their right to due process taken away

because of one bad one? Do you think all union workers should be stripped of the rights for which they fought, struck, and took a pay cut time and again?

[Recursion]

6. As I said, I think there's got to be a way to solve both problems

But it shouldn't take 6 years of remediation to fix that one, for instance.

[BrotherIvan]

7. There is

You want to know the secret? Pay teachers their worth--as in the worth of their degrees and certification--don't beat them up or force them to be test monitors, and we will be able to attract the best of the best. I know many people who would love to leave their corporate and even university jobs and teach in K-12, but the salary is so low and the job so dismal, they don't.

There is a dearth of teachers in the science and math fields, and often those areas are taught by those who did not specialize in that field. I had a lot of coaches for math in high school, for instance, because someone had to run the class. But the teaching profession does not attract those with advanced degrees in science because it is so far off from the pay of that field. If we want excellent teachers, make the job attractive and there will be plenty of people willing to invest in a teaching degree to do it.

It really is that simple.

[Recursion]

8. So let STEM people teach

That was a big headache we had when I was at an engineering education think tank: trying to get state accreditation boards to let people with master's degrees in science or engineering (rather than MEd's) teach. It was like pulling teeth. There's a pendulum between subject mastery and pedagogy, and we're a little too far on one side right now.

But, yes: I do definitely agree with raising teacher pay to attract more people into the field (provided they are allowed to teach).

[BrotherIvan]

9. Agreed

A lot of MEd programs now are not useful. There are so many state guidelines and even credentials that don't cross state lines that it becomes cumbersome. But when a STEM degree means $50k starting salary and a teacher starts at $25k with salary bumps coming only after years on the job, which one would anyone choose?

Add to that the fact that teachers are treated like dirt by our politicians, the media, administrators, parents, and students, who on earth would want that job? Then take a look at the high debt teachers rack up providing materials and books as well as unpaid time. Now sprinkle on classrooms that are decrepit and unsafe, stuffed with up to fifty students all at different levels (I actually had a class like this in my short teaching stint), different languages, special education students with no aides, children who are barely parented or abused, children on medication for ADD and ADHD, and teaching to the test every day, you have to be a martyr to want that job. It's horrible, and it's just going to get worse.

So do I think that teacher's having due process is the problem? NOPE.

[Sancho]

15. Most MEd degrees now require content courses....

there have been changes over the last decade or so. Of course, some of us were required to take graduate courses in a content area as part of a masters even in the 70's. The MEd's without content have been disappearing for about 20 years.

If you get an MEd in most programs now, you will take additional courses in music, math, or whatever subject you teach in addition to foundation and pedagogy courses. You also will likely get more supervised clinical experience teaching in your concentration.

I realize that programs vary widely and mail-order degrees are still out there, but fully accredited programs are carefully examined and usually include useful coursework that's on target.

It's true that some credentials don't cross state lines and there have been complaints about that for decades. Nationally accredited programs can earn credentials pretty quickly, and I've moved across three states without much more than a transcript analysis and taking a state test in a content area.

Yes, my first year teaching science was for $8900 and I was offered $20,000 to work for an oil company at the end of that year. Teacher pay is terrible (and professor pay is not much better). If you want to make a living teaching, you'll probably have to work a second job, go into administration, or buy a lottery ticket.

[BrotherIvan]

88. Is that true for primary and middle school as well

I know the testing for high school is very rigorous as I've seen co-workers prepping for the mat and science ones and it was brutal. But for a teacher that teaches a multitude of subjects, how rigorous is the testing? In my experience, most teachers are fine in their subject matter. The real difference comes in classroom management. That is one of the biggest challenges with overfull classrooms and varying academic levels and languages. We keep dumping more and more on teachers and scream at them that they're failing. It's ridiculous.

[Sancho]

91. Actually, many MEd's for Elementary and Middle school degrees have LOTS of new stuff...

Teachers have to take a mix of content courses (like Teaching Elementary Math or Children's Literature) along with courses in classroom management. Now ESOL endorsements, special education requirements, and technology skills are making the degrees so many hours that you could go to law school or something more lucrative than get a Masters.

High stakes testing is serious. Here in Florida, if your school's test scores are "low", the entire school's faculty are replaced!! I've seen it happen in a St. Petersburg elementary school in the last year! Most of the new "common core" tests are going to be challenging at all grade levels.

Classroom management is very complex, because it coexists with the administrative support and parental involvement. Even then, the best way to learn things like classroom management is to have supervision with experienced teachers - and almost no states support paid internships or extra pay for mentor teachers.

The best teachers have lots of skills that go way beyond content knowledge: communication skills, collaboration with others, planning, management, ethics, child advocacy, and even medical/counseling knowledge.

[adigal]

80. I have two years, one month and 29 days left

What you say is true. I love my students, but the rest is just so discouraging, I can't stand it.

[Sancho]

20. Many schools have experience with this...

Here in Florida, we had a big push for "alternative certification" a few years ago. We recruited NASA scientists, engineers from the defense industry, science teachers from health professions, and math folks from accounting to actuaries. The actual results was that it was a poor investment. It costs a district several thousand dollars per teacher to get folks into the basics of teaching even with simple orientation programs.

The number of successful professionals who transferred in was pretty low at the end of 5 years. Even when they knew their content, they didn't know school curriculums. Scientists took vertebrate morphology, but didn't have a clue about sex education; engineers knew applied calculus, but had never seen a Cuisenaire rod. That sort of stuff was typical.

Many applied professions didn't do well at necessary teacher skills like communication with parents, collaboration with other teachers, classroom management, and planning. The recruits often dropped out as fast as they were brought in. That's likely the reason for all the hoops to jump through. It's simply a matter of where you put your dollars.

As a consequence, many districts cut back their attempts to recruit outsiders because it was not as useful as taking a successful teacher (like a 3rd grade teacher) and turning them into a math or science teacher with a concentrated masters or inservice program. The crazy thing is that once teachers were taught calculus or get a science major, many were hired away (about half) at bigger salaries because of the additional training the district pair for to get them into STEM!

Even though there is still a place for recruiting applied professionals (especially in some AP and IB programs), it has not proven cost effective for most school districts. Even so, we still have active programs in Florida and universities are sometimes funded to recruit and retain professionals for STEM and high need areas.

[joeglow3]

81. So, you are implicitly saying teachers are bad.

You just said we are stuck with crappy teachers because good teachers are priced out of the market.

[BrotherIvan]

84. Um...no

[joeglow3]

90. Um...yes

Go back and re-read what you wrote...

[BrotherIvan]

93. What I wrote is that the teaching profession can no longer attract certain fields that make more

in the corporate world, so we have a severe shortage of math and science teachers. I also wrote that we are demanding that teachers become "highly qualified" with expensive credentials and then pay them crap wages, thereby ensuring a dearth of teachers in the future.

[joeglow3]

104. I have always said we have plenty of bad teachers and need to pay more to attract greater talent

However, if someone's position is that almost all of teachers are great, then they would disagree with our position.

[wcast]

72. It doesn't take 6 years, at least in PA

It takes two unsatisfactory ratings in a 4 month period and you can be terminated. An anecdotal story from 25 years ago doesn't change that fact. It is up to the administration to handle that and as a 22 year teacher who is very active with my union, something I find hard to believe. It may be they could have fired that teacher and chose not to for a variety of reasons that had nothing to do with the union.

[msanthrope]

49. Well....that isn't the argument put forth by the Plaintiffs. If it was, I suspect

that the OP would be able to quote the actual lawsuit.

Or, they might quote the California lawsuit or decision.

It's kind of telling when one describes a lawsuit without actually using the primary source.....the lawsuit itself.

What you have here is quite simple. You wrote:

Do you think all union workers should be stripped of the rights for which they fought, struck, and took a pay cut time and again?

The answer is "Yes, if those contract rights infringe upon the civil rights of children. No, if they do not. Your property right under contract is not more important than the civil rights of children."

Let me give you an example of what I mean. Imagine you are a teacher in Topeka Kansas in 1954. Your union has reached an agreement with the school board that you and your fellow teachers will have the right to apportion resources at your discretion. Then, the Brown decision comes down.

You think that contract provision stands?

[wcast]

73. I'm trying to understand what you are saying.

Are you saying the ability to be fired only for just cause is a violation of someone's civil rights? There are a lot of problems in education but few of those are the direct result of poor teachers.

[Sancho]

13. I've been hearing these stories for a long time and I don't believe it....

(My wife and I are in the 38th year of teaching at all levels in 3 states). Honestly, even in the 70's I saw a science teacher removed for competence. For decades teachers have been required to pass content tests in almost all states after obtaining a major in whatever subject they teach.

The only content knowledge issues that typically occur are when people are hired for some other reason (like coaching) or are assigned out of field by the administration. Most teachers (especially math and science) are pretty well trained. Very few stay in the job because they can walk out and double their salary any time they want. Believe me, I've done it when ever I need money for the mortgage!

What is much more often a problem are people hired on alternative/temporary certificates because they were engineers or scientists and they don't have a credential and they are terrible teachers. I'm a third generation family of STEM teachers (my original certificate was science) before I went to grad school. I can tell you that even university professors in math and science are often TERRIBLE teachers because they don't understand learning processes at all.

The vast majority of certified teachers are pretty good, especially after they get 3 to 5 years experience.

I've seen teachers "non-renewed" in every school I taught in if they were truly bad, committed a crime, or generated complaints from parents. In today's schools, you can be non-renewed or transferred simply because the test scores aren't good even if you didn't do anything except a good job!! If you are put on permanent substitute, you'll probably quit anyway.

[Recursion]

14. Hi. You seem to be calling me a liar.

This was a direct statement of fact that I stand by.

[Sancho]

16. I don't think you are a liar, but you may have limited experience with these things....

most of the horror stories about a terrible teacher are limited to

...something that happened many years ago when teacher quality was not an issue
...a single incident where the public didn't really know what happened behind closed doors
...a second hand story without direct evidence

If someone really doesn't have a clue about their subject (English, science, etc.), then there must be a reason they were put in the classroom. You simply can't take 8-10 science courses in a college major; pass a state test in chemistry, biology, or physics; make it through 3 supervised internships with professors and cooperating teachers; pass your district professional orientation plan (2 to 3 years) with principals and peers checking on you; and then not know the sun doesn't go around the planets. You also have a content supervisor, adopted curriculum, and possibly a content observation annually.

If that's the case, the teacher must not be a real certified science teacher or the district is the problem. In such a case, it would be possible to non-renew a teacher or demand an improvement plan in no more than one year. At the end of two year's you'd be gone or transferred or something. If the principal is incompetent, the district is stupid, and the teacher graduated from a non-accredited school and was credentialed by an alternative route (like TFA) it's possible, but still a very unusual situation.

Even with the shortage of STEM teachers putting pressure on districts to keep the bad ones, there is still an effort to fix problems or get rid of them.

I've taught in rural GA and SC (probably a lot like Mississippi), and I still didn't see protected teachers except political appointees (like the superintendent's in-laws) or coaches. Schools don't like the parents and public complaining so they will usually ask really bad teachers to resign or non-renew them or hassle them with improvement plans and transfers until they quit.

[hatrack]

21. Fallacy of Misplaced Concreteness

"I personally saw this one thing happen once, therefore it remains true in all places and times."

[madfloridian]

26. Well said

[Recursion]

32. My concreteness is quite specific here: my principal should have been able to fire her

Find a way that a similar principal with a similar situation can also fire a similarly unacceptable teacher.

[MohRokTah]

55. Did you ever think the principal was the more incompetent one in this situation?

Perhaps the principal completely fucked up the procedure to go about getting rid of this teacher for six years.

Did you ever think of that?

[Recursion]

56. I did, in fact

However, I also talked to her colleagues once I grew up, and they disabused me of that notion.

[MohRokTah]

58. I disbelieve.

Sorry, but based upon your posting history, I simply do not believe you.

[HERVEPA]

59. Wow, I don't agree with you much, but spot on here.

[HuckleB]

82. The principal, with the help of the principal's supervisor. Still, it doesn't happen, quite often.

[brentspeak]

45. The content of your posts elsewhere on DU

indicate that the implication is correct. (Note how DUers took apart your free trade propaganda, bit-by-bit)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4492144

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5460839

Your "personal anecdotes" are amusing, like this one where you claim that "about half of the under-40-year-old professional teachers I know are trying to start charter schools" (and your alleged support for teacher unions is also very touching).

[Recursion]

46. Are any of those posts false?

The "half" is down to about "30%" now, just from my own straw poll, but still.

[brentspeak]

48. Actually, yes

The responses to your pro-NAFTA posts demonstrated your posts were laughably misleading B.S.

Say 'hi' to your Michelle Rhee clones for us.

[Recursion]

50. Which one?

If any of those numbers are wrong I would like to know.

[HERVEPA]

51. Sure you would.

[Recursion]

52. So... you won't say?

Not surprising

[HuckleB]

63. I've seen bad teachers get passed from school to school.

It happens. It is ridiculous.

[ladjf]

29. There's something "fishy" about this story.

It seems impossible that a science teacher would have been able to graduate from college without learning the basic facts
about solar system mechanics. And at the state level, teachers are required to demonstrate a knowledge of their subject.
I would venture to say that a majority of Jr. High students would have known that the Sun was at the center of our solar system.

[Recursion]

30. Well, sorry I'm blowing up your theory with my facts

That is actually what happened.

[ladjf]

36. If the school system hired a science teacher who knew nothing about science, it is the school

administration that should be fired along with the teacher who obviously was a fraud.

But, let's get one thing straight. An occasional fraudulent teacher is not what the tenure battle is really about. It's about getting rid
of teachers who are unwilling to march lockstep with the ideologies of the right-wingers. This battle has been going on for at least
50 years. Back then it was the John Birch Society.

Your example of one inadequate teacher is an anecdotal smoke screen. Of course the teacher in your example should be dismissed immediately for the misdeed of impersonating a trained science. Any good Principal could have spotted this deficiency almost immediately. The administrator who offered remedial training for the teacher should also be dismissed.

[Recursion]

38. OK, so let's take the "smoke screen" out of it

Why not take the whole issue out of the equation by assessing teachers based on the improvements of their students?

[questionseverything]

53. what we should be assessing teachers by is

if their students love to learn or not

my child goes to first grade at a "failing" public school

and yet she comes home daily excited about reading,about math, about learning

that is what a good teacher does is excite them about discovering the world , my first grader's teacher does that and yet because she teaches in an impoverished area her class will fail ...40% of the kids are not english speaking and the tests are done in english,,,,duh

your story points out it is usually the administration not doing their job,afterall how stupid were they to hire a science teacher that thought the sun rotates around the planets

[ladjf]

66. That might work to a certain extent. However, in most cases, the

teachers start teaching the students how to answer the test questions and in some cases actually help them cheat.

The best way to go is hire well trained teachers with legitimate credentials, pay them a good salary and let them do what they are trained to do. Tenure, yes can causes some problems but, if properly administered can be the best way to go. Any system can be abused and become ineffective.

[Recursion]

67. Is there any other field where you would say not to look at the outcomes?

I keep coming back to that.

[ladjf]

68. I didn't say to not look at the outcomes. I just didn't take the time to discuss everything

pertinent to your topic.

If I understand your main point, which is that tenure causes more harm than good, I don't condemn your opinion.

Personally, I feel that the students are better served when the teachers have some job security.

You are obviously very interested and involved in your school system. As long as you don't try to run the school, your interest is very helpful.

[Recursion]

69. I like the notion of "tenure" in the sense of academic freedom

Actually, for that matter, I think primary and secondary educators should be given sabbaticals and expected to publish.

[Enthusiast]

10. Kicked and recommended!

[blackspade]

11. These folks remind me of anti-vaxers and climate change deniers.

It's all about their selfish view of the world, not about what is good for children or the future.

[Initech]

96. Same group of idiots, different cause.

[secondwind]

12. K&R....

[Sancho]

17. Boies and similar groups are attacking tenure for purely political and profit reasons....

Tenure (continuing contracts) is nothing more than protecting Due Process rights for employees. One interesting book that folks might look at is

The Teacher Wars: A History of America's Most Embattled Profession

http://www.amazon.com/The-Teacher-Wars-Embattled-Profession/dp/038553695X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1410952220&sr=8-1&keywords=war+on+teachers

The crazy conservatives see a way to privatize and make money off of education, get rid of unions as political opponents, and put down women at the same time - so attacking teaching is a hot issue for them. David Boies is one of the hired guns who makes things up, get on TV (like Campbell and Rhee), and run around filing lawsuits. It's a shotgun approach that occasionally pays off when they get a sympathetic court, naive parents, or support from the radical right.

Right now, unions and collective bargaining are the only defense unless parents and the public take an interest in education. I've heard unofficially that Rick Scott (here in Florida) asked all education appointees if they believe in getting rid of tenure before he'll nominate them for anything. I suspect that's truly what is happening.

Hopefully, people will wake up and vote!!

[BrotherIvan]

60. ++++++++

Yes, this is about union busting and Democrats should not support it for ANY reason.

[Sancho]

83. Just to make the point that Madfloridian has documented (thanks)!!!

"Tenure" and "continuing contracts" protect the due process of teachers; particularly teachers who are doing a good job!!! If you are truly a bad teacher because you commit a crime, show up drunk, or don't know your stuff - then the district can document and fire you, non-renew your contract, or even revoke your teaching credential. Sometimes lousy administrators and poor school management foul up the process of removing a really bad teacher, but with schools having lawyers, principals having graduate degrees in leadership, and piles of precedents; it takes a pretty dumb administration to foul up a non-renewal if it's valid.

If you are someone who faces an irate parent (for any number of reasons, you'll NEVER please all the parents). If you have administrators with political agendas. If you have a school board that wants to illegally get rid of older teachers or some other group that they think are "too expensive" or undesirable....then at some point you need job protection.

In those cases where teachers are threatened unfairly, then unions, collective bargaining agreements, "tenure", and similar processes give the teacher a chance for a hearing, representation, legal advice, and a public voice. It does not guarantee the teacher will win; only that the teacher will get a prescribed process to be fairly heard.

As a science teacher in a rural school I had parents criticize me when the school curriculum included evolution. The elected school superintendent was a Baptist minister!!! If I didn't have due process, I'd have been out the door in a flash.

Any teacher, including the best teachers, will sometimes face political and arbitrary accusations. Due process and tenure are the historical way (originally from Europe) that schools and university faculty were protected from abuse. Due process and tenure won't protect you if you are really awful, and in fact many good teachers are non-renewed even with tenure protections. Teachers lose the majority of arbitrations!

Tenure is earned after complete certification and a trial period. There's nothing wrong with the concept of tenure.

[kwassa]

110. This teacher says "thank you" for all your excellent posts.

This myth about teacher tenure is an insidious and unrelenting talking point of the right wing, and bizarrely spouted by some who claim to be Democrats.

[adirondacker]

18. Thanks for this Important news and sharing your experience! nt

[Teamster Jeff]

19. The whole reform scam is not about education

Simply Union Busting 101

[BuelahWitch]

22. Indeed, they want to replace teachers with untrained people who make $10.10 an hour

or a computer program.

[Starry Messenger]

23. Boom.

[leftstreet]

61. +1

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

65. Yet a number of our so called moderates are going right along with it. nt

[Octafish]

24. David Boies? The guy who helped Gore not win Florida?

Odd how he's found his groove when it comes to carrying the oligarch's water.

[UTUSN]

27. Yeah, *that* "superlawyer"!1 & GORE apparently hasn't learned, hired him for the Al Jezeera suit n/t

[msanthrope]

31. The guy who killed Prop 8? David Boies guaranteed the civil rights of

millions. He is kickass.

[brentspeak]

74. Looks like someone got their Daily Caller marching orders today n/t

[msanthrope]

75. Let's not mince words here, brent. Are you alleging that I, an Obama campaign

voter protection attorney, an attorney who was interviewed on The Steve Leser Show on Election Night 2012 for my work in Philly's 14th Ward (google that, friends) is actually a paid troll sponsored by Tucker Carlson's Daily Caller?

If you are going to accuse me of nefarious behavior, then why not be plain, and lodge the accusation for all to see?

[brentspeak]

76. Those are not accusations I made. n/t

[msanthrope]

79. You accused me of taking marching orders from that bowtied motherfucker,

Tucker Carlson. Are you unaware of who founded The Daily Caller? Is ignorance your defense?

Come on brent---this is your chance to strike your blow and make your accusations plain.

[grasswire]

85. doesn't Steve Leser work for FOX News? nt

[msanthrope]

89. No--Steve has appeared as a guest, but has his own radio show in NYC. You'd

like it....the guests are pretty fabulous.

And I think you'd like his FOX appearances.....he brought truth to power.

On Election Night, we discussed the controversial Ward 14th, and rightwing attempts there to disrupt the vote.

[grasswire]

102. an unpaid guest?

Or paid by FOX?

[msanthrope]

107. I've never asked him. Why not PM him? nt

[grasswire]

108. you're citing him as a cred.

I might be a little embarrassed to do that. That's all.

[dsc]

109. So did Ted Olsen

that doesn't make everything he does a good idea by any means.

[msanthrope]

39. The problem with your OP is that it rests on a meme that is fallacious....

namely that your "due process" rights are being violated. Your conflation of your rights under contract, and your civil rights of due process only make your claims murkier.

So would you kindly clarify just what you are claiming?

You have the California decision and the New York lawsuit. Please cite from those documents what you think is the violation of your rights.

Otherwise, I have to say that I find your OP based in ignorance of the law and civics....and I don't mean that as an insult, but what you arguing for is that contract rights trump the civil rights of students. I don't think that's what you mean to argue though, right?

[questionseverything]

70. no the op is saying that

teacher's contract rights help protect the rights of students,,,,and she gave you a clear example

////////////////

on a personal note i have a family member that works for a organization that promotes charter schools, she is very right wing and has admitted the reason she would like to see public schools shut down is because educating the poor and minorities, "doesn't do any good anyways"

so be careful what you wish for

[msanthrope]

71. Actually...the OP did no such thing. The OP's example indicates

a level of abuse and neglect taking place that mandates reporting, regardless of tenure.

[madfloridian]

97. It was reported. I reported it against the wishes of my principal.

She looked at it as a religious freedom issue, I looked at it as child abuse. It could have turned into a legal battle if she had pursued it, but child services made clear to her who was right.

Another principal had once told me privately not to call child services when a child had reported abuse in the family. They were a prominent family in the community. All hell broke loose when I reported it, but I was required by law.

In both cases tenure made me have more confidence to do what I had to do, and it kept the scaredy cat principals off my back.

If I say it's rainy, you will say it's sunny.

[msanthrope]

99. You claim that it was your tenure that gave you more confidence to do what the law required.

Why would that change for teachers under the proposed lawsuit?

Can you cite a single instance in California, where the lawsuit was successful, where a teacher's tenure rights were violated because they reported abuse?

Can you cite a single line from the current NY lawsuit that would have made your situation more difficult?

As I noted in my other post to you--which you didn't answer--you haven't been able to cite a single actual case, or a primary source reference that bolsters your argument.

Can you do that, now? A single legal argument put forth by either Plaintiff that would affect the tenure of a teacher reporting abuse?


I reported abuse without tenure. Hell, I didn't even consider it.

[madfloridian]

100. "Why would that change for teachers under the proposed lawsuit?"

Really?

I thought I would respond to you one more time in that other post. I wish I had not.

[msanthrope]

101. No..REALLY. Here is where you PROVE, with a primary source, either from the CA

lawsuit or the NY lawsuit, that tenure would change in the manner you claim it will.

One sentence, madflo....that's all I'm asking for. One sentence from either lawsuit (or heck, even the CA decisions) that proves that tenure would change in the manner you claim it will.

You claim that "due process" rights would be taken away.

Show us where.

[Jakes Progress]

105. Way to fight the right fight for the right.

Nit pick and dabble with wordiness while claiming that what bennet and reagan and arne want is good for students. You have more imagination than is revealed by the tacky little tactic you play here.

Do you support unions? Do you support public schools? Don't play games with word picking. No blind games. Just tell me why letting administrators behave like robber baron employers and overseers is good for children.

[msanthrope]

106. When did the civil rights of children become subordinate to a property right?

Look....the OP has made the claim that tenure will change under this lawsuit.

Ok....how?

[Jakes Progress]

111. When did you last take a civics course and where?

It must have been at pat roberts university. He confuses that tired old line about student's civil rights all the time. He also would like to give born again principals the power to fire teachers who teach history and science that disagrees with fundamentalist tenets. That would be one of the results of your attack on teachers. The Kochs really like the idea of teachers being fired on the whim of right wing school boards and administrators. That way they don't have to even pretend that they are doing it for the children.

Look . . . just how is this a matter of children's civil rights? Don't you think you are trivializing suffering of civil rights activists with this tired, misapplied, and oh so lame argument? And how does a teacher's right to due process in the workplace become a property right.

Why do you use right wing and neo-con arguments to attack liberal Democrats?

[msanthrope]

112. Jake...on another thread you obviously were angry with me for reminding you

about civics and Senatorial Rules.

In law school, I learned that it is nearly ways fatal to a defense when you claim that the other side's civil rights argument is bogus....particularly when you have precedent that says it is not. My journal contains the relevant California case.

As in the other thread, I urge you to read the relevant information before posting.

[Jakes Progress]

114. You might carry your grudges around.

I don't remember you or whatever crap you keep track of. Is that how you spend your time? What a waste?

So you say they taught you that asking someone to prove their point was "fatal". Please cite the law text that taught you this bit of wisdom? When I was there, we learned that people who throw around their vast legal experience references without any proof are full of it and are dodging the question. Your dunking of the question wouldn't fool a bad TV lawyer.

Tell my how a child's civil rights are being abused here. Which statue would you like to cite?

Attacking liberals as a defense for this administration's right wing efforts is not the way to gather more support for the man you say you support. But a good lawyer would know that?

[msanthrope]

115. Again Jake....not sure why you kicked this thread from last week after

arguing with me on another more current thread.

And I noted to you that the prior CA case is available in my journal. I can't make you read it, but it might be beneficial to your argument if you were somewhat familiar with that case.

And I don't cite statues. Although the CA case does involve a specific statute.

[no_hypocrisy]

42. I can speak of being a teacher without due process rights.

I am a substitute teacher. I go to teach at a moment's notice, any level, any subject. Sometimes there are plans; sometimes there aren't. If there are plans, I may have time to review them and go over the subject matter and actually teach. Or I may have to wing 5 to 6 hours to avoid dead air time.

A district may take me out of their system without notice or explanation or a chance to discuss any problems. And I can be blacklisted among other local districts who will not hire me.

Do I wish I could join a teachers' union and be protected against this? You bet I do. But you have to have a full time position with tenure or on your way to tenure.

[madfloridian]

94. Substitute teachers are very vulnerable.

Our county has often used subs for longer periods to avoid filling a vacancy perhaps caused by teacher illness. Pays less, fewer or no benefits, costs less for county.

[WinkyDink]

47. Makes one wonder how much his legal heart was in it when arguing for a Gore victory......

[Larkspur]

54. We need someone to bring a lawsuit against billionaires and corporation for

not paying their taxes or corrupting our political system so much that they pay either very little to no taxes, thus hurting our nations infrastructure, which includes schools.

Wonder who is funding Campbell's group and Bois' salary?

[Initech]

103. I support this idea!

Why should 400 people get to control the other 320 million of us just because they have more money than god?

[librechik]

57. never did trust that guy. n/t

[grasswire]

86. ^^^ nt

[leftstreet]

64. DURec

[adigal]

77. I have failed 12th graders and had superintendents and parents threaten me

Actually, they failed themselves. I just wrote down their grade. And this is after multiple attempts to get them up to speed.

The teachers who stick to their guns and do their jobs and don't give in to threatening parents are the ones who will lose their jobs without tenure.

At this point, I am tired of fighting and being the bad guy. I have two years, one month and 29 days until I am 55 years old and I can get out. I love my students, but the rest is just plain bad.

[madfloridian]

87. Applause for that post.

You said:

The teachers who stick to their guns and do their jobs and don't give in to threatening parents are the ones who will lose their jobs without tenure.

So very true.

[deminks]

92. More Koch addiction becoming evident.

Major Kansas Papers Ignore Koch Connection To Anti-Teachers' Rights Legislation

http://mediamatters.org/research/2014/04/10/major-kansas-papers-ignore-koch-connection-to-a/198836

It was all Koch, AFP and ALEC here that led to a bill being passed to strip teachers of their due process. Reports abound that the Kochs were sitting in the KS Senate President's office during the "legislative process".

[Initech]

95. Another useful idiot of the upper 1%. Fuck him.

[Sancho]

113. If you doubt teachers need tenure to deal with parents, check out this thread!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018669304