This is an Islamic organization....

[Playinghardball]

http://theobamadiary.com/

[linuxman]

1. They both are.

Last edited Wed Sep 17, 2014, 05:21 PM - Edit history (1)

Doing bad stuff doesn't eliminate you from the larger group.

Doing bad stuff doesn't make the larger group share in the deeds of the smaller group.

ISIS is an Islamic group, as they identify as one.

The KKK is a Christian group, as they identify as one.

[Fred Sanders]

3. Self identification does not mean the identification is correct.

Neither group is based on religion, only distortions of religion.

[jollyreaper2112]

5. really

A sub-genius should know better.

[Downwinder]

6. Are Masons a Christian group?

Or Mormons?

How about Baptists?

[el_bryanto]

8. There are at least two philosophies here (at DU I mean)

One is that only the nice Christians count as real Christians - because they are following the Doctrines of Christ which are all about being nice to one another.

The other is that anybody who calls himself a Christian and who has at least a tangential connection to the Bible is a Christian, and in fact the uglier they are the more they are representative of Christianity as a whole.

Comparing Islamic terrorists to the KKK is supposed to drive home a point about how we should be tolerant towards the majority of Muslims who have nothing to do with ISIS or Al-Qaeda. But it doesn't really work, because of course for many people on this board the KKK is representative of what Christianity is really all about.

Bryant

[snooper2]

7. How do you know that their version isn't the correct version? Both books say some evil shit

In reality it is all fucking mythology, but since we have billions of "believers" of faiths we have to still deal with it

Muslims tend to actually follow their holy book, Christians in the past couple hundred years are only following the happy parts of their texts. When is that last time CBS did a story on some families getting slaughtered because they were doing yard work on a Sunday?

[Fred Sanders]

12. CBS does not do news of Christian atrocities, though that mass killer in Norway comes to mind.

[CJCRANE]

20. You forgot the Christian militias in Central African Republic

and Lord's Resistance Army in Uganda.

Not to mention many in the GOP base who think they're fighting a war against Islam (including General Boykin and the like) and Bush and Blair who specifically invoked religion.

The Abrahamic faiths are all part of the same thing.

They all have the same potential for Wrath or Mercy.

We need a secular society that allows people to practice their faith in private, not bring it into the political sphere.

[Fred Sanders]

52. Well, they say they are Christians and killing and pillaging on behalf of Christianity, so they

must be representing all of Christianity, for true.

Too many confused folks out there that lose all sense of reason and logic when the scary "Muslim" word is used.

[YoungDemCA]

25. What do you believe?

nt

[snooper2]

45. I believe fundies are fucking assholes and a blight on society

Oh, and since our bodies are literally made from atoms from an exploded supernova billions of years ago after our sun swallows planet earth as it starts to die that will be my next resting place.


Pretty awesome isn't it!

[msanthrope]

50. We are all starstuff. nt

[Hugabear]

51. Here we see a perfect example of the 'No True Scotsman' argument being played out

Just because YOU say they're not Islamic or Christian organizations doesn't mean that they aren't.

They would probably say the same thing about you.

[samsingh]

9. they call themselves an islamic nation and they govern by strict interpretation

of sharia law.

[Fred Sanders]

13. I could call myself Jesus and govern by strict interpretation of the Old Testament...so what?

[Kurska]

15. Then you'd be a christian fundamentalist.

Just like how ISIS are muslim fundamentalists.

[Fred Sanders]

16. No, I would be insane, just like ISIS, the KKK and the Westboro Church folks, to name a few.

How is that so hard for some folks to understand?

[Kurska]

17. You'd be both

Insane and a fundamentalist.

It isn't hard to understand. It is a logical fallacy. You're just shouting the no true Scotsman over and over as if you're the ultimate authority on who is actually a member of what religion. ISIS will point to endless Quarnic passages for justification for what they do. Many of their prominent leaders have engaged in extensive religious study. They attempt to rule via sharia law. They are muslims, not the only kind of muslims, but they are muslims.

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled."

http://quran.com/9/29

Conquer non-muslim, then force them to either convert or pay a tax

"And when the sacred months have passed, then kill the polytheists wherever you find them and capture them and besiege them and sit in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they should repent, establish prayer, and give zakah, let them [go] on their way. Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."

Jizyah can only be paid by Abrahamic religions. Everyone else either converts or dies.

There are quranic justifications for what ISIS is doing. Obviously that doesn't make it right, but you can't say they aren't muslims just because you don't like what they are doing. Just like the WBC can point to the bible to justify itself. We don't accept these justifications, but we can't just pretend they don't exist.

[Dems to Win]

22. +1 (wish I'd written this post :)

[CJCRANE]

29. However, ISIS interpretation is historically inaccurate as per The Constitution of Medina:

The Constitution of Medina, also known as the Charter of Medina, was drafted by the Islamic prophet Muhammad. It constituted a formal agreement between Muhammad and all of the significant tribes and families of Yathrib (later known as Medina), including Muslims, Jews, Christians and pagans. This constitution formed the basis of the first Islamic state. The document was created to bring to an end the bitter inter-tribal fighting between the clans of the Aws (Aus) and Khazraj within Medina. To this effect it instituted a number of rights and responsibilities for the Muslim, Jewish, Christian and pagan communities of Medina bringing them within the fold of one community—the Ummah.

...

Rights of non-Muslims
The non-Muslims included in the ummah had the following rights:

The security of God is equal for all groups,
Non-Muslim members will have the same political and cultural rights as Muslims. They will have autonomy and freedom of religion.
Non-Muslims will take up arms against the enemy of the Ummah and share the cost of war. There is to be no treachery between the two.
Non-Muslims will not be obliged to take part in religious wars of the Muslims.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Medina

[Kurska]

33. Yes, which is funnily enough excatly what ISIS would do in the end.

Last edited Tue Sep 16, 2014, 08:52 PM - Edit history (1)

Establish a caliphate through blood and conquest, including the slaughter of those minorities if they resist. Then force minorities to become "equal citizens" of a political and theocratic state ruled by a an absolute Muslim ruler, so long as they payed a tax to continue their worship. They were also forbidden the right to seek converts, that was only for Muslims. Those groups would eventually dwindle and die off like they did throughout the middle east, just like how they did in the caliphates.


The political union and state whose constitution you just described is exactly what ISIS claims they want to recreate. You're talking about the creation of the first Islamic state.

[Fred Sanders]

36. Uh, did you read the post.....none of what is in the Book of Medina is in the ISIS model....

You have made yourself clear enough, you hate Muslims of any kind.
OK, then.

[Kurska]

37. I did read it and what I described is how the first Islamic state was actually ran.

Despite the rosey picture that the post attempted to paint, what I said is how that state actually existed As a state established through bloody conquest and often genocide with female prisoners of war forced to marry Muslim soldiers (sound familiar? I can quote the Quranic verse giving approval of this if you like). Religious minorities were forbidden to seek converts, forced to pay a tax, serve at the pleasure of an absolute Muslim despot and all Muslims forced to exist under the guidelines of sharia law (converting away from Islam means deaths, btw). This system implemented in the first Islamic state and subsequent caliphates is what ISIS wants to bring back and they loudly proclaim that.Will you contest any of these points? Or are you once again going to simply say "nope not true" with no substance to your argument?

No I don't hate Muslims of any kind. I'm just not delusional about how the religion was actually founded and spread (Christianity was spread by the sword too and Judaism as well has several very violent incidents in their holy book). Notice many Zoroastrians around or those pagans that constitution was meant to "protect"? You ever wonder what happened to those guys? They had the misfortune of being a non-abrahamic religion located near Islam during its accession to power.

[CJCRANE]

38. Those minorities have survived for hundreds or even thousands of years

and so have the shrines and monuments.

If you get a chance speak to an actual Iraqi about this.

[Fred Sanders]

40. Folks here are told all they need to know by the TV machine, thank you very much.

[Kurska]

41. Just like in Egypt right?

Coptics are barely at 10% now, they have been shrinking smaller and smaller for centuries. That is what happens when you charge minorities a special tax and make it so only one religion can legally seek converts. Calling that equality before god is laughable.

[CJCRANE]

42. Except Egypt was a secular state. Nasser, Sadat, Arafat, Saddam, Gadaffi, Assad etc.

were all secular rulers.

Arab nationalism was a secular socialist movement.

Neocon policies have done nothing but destroy secular regimes and increase religious fundamentalism at home and abroad.

[Kurska]

43. Talking the past 1400 years. Not the past 100. n/t

[CJCRANE]

46. Do you have an in depth knowledge of the past 1400 years?

How about we look in the mirror right now and look at the mess we've caused?

Why do you think a group of Middle East christians booed Ted Cruz?

Our policies have done nothing but destroy the lives of ME Christians and minorities.

Saddam Hussein's second in command was a Christian. Christians were accepted in Libya, Egypt and the Occupied Territories under secular rulers.

[Fred Sanders]

31. You can not be serious. ISIS is to Islam as the KKK is to Christianity, it is very simple. Neither

has anything to do with their religions other than using religion as a shield for their psychopathy.

It really is cartoonishly simple, complicating simplicity is the preview of a losing argument.

And since you concede ISIS is an insane group, why would you believe insane folks about anything they claim to be?

[Kurska]

34. You keep saying the same thing over and over

Try actually formulating an arguement. ISIS aren't"Real muslims", because you say they aren't and they are bad people. They have quranical justification for their behavior, are lead by religious scholars and seek to establish a Muslim empire state centered on the law as prescribed by the quran. They are muslims as much as you desperately try to deny it. None of this justifies their actions or their means. They are disgusting and horrible people, but nothing about being a monster means they can't be muslims (or christians, or jews, or atheists for that matter)

You can absolutely batshit insane and religious at the same time.

[samsingh]

23. they are following saria which means that some of the things they are doing

are part of their theology.

none of Jesus' teachings ever said it was okay to cut off someone's hands for stealing a loaf of bread. Sharia law prescribes that.

[Fred Sanders]

39. You really do need to be better informed, but I see you have chosen not to be...too bad.

I believe you have been frightened by mass media in thinking sharia law is pure evil, though you may be surprised that sharia law courts exist in several Western countries, including Britain.

No scary, scary be headings yet.....

[samsingh]

48. interesting you say 'pure evil'. why would anyone want a law that has any degree of evil in it

you dont' seem very well informed on the subject of this law

[Fred Sanders]

53. Why don't you ask the British government that agreed to the limited jurisdiction of sharia courts?

[samsingh]

54. they were wrong in doing so. why do i need to ask them.

it would be easy to see sharia law in action. just go to pakistan and make a controversial statement (even innocently enough) about the religion and see how good that law will treat you. Last year there was a small Christian girl who was accused of blashemy and almost put to death. She spent weeks if not months in solitary confinement. This year two women were stoned to death in the capital - for alleged adultry.

[Nye Bevan]

30. I don't remember Jesus appearing in the Old Testament (nt)

[nilesobek]

35. He flashed for a brief cameo

but the camera didn't catch it.

[YoungDemCA]

24. "Doing bad stuff make the larger group share in the deeds of the smaller group."

By this logic, all human beings share in the deeds of the Nazis. Or the KKK, or ISIL.

[Fred Sanders]

32. Sorry to tell you that your disrobing of the logic will only result in confusion.

[linuxman]

58. Typo.

Was supposed to say "Doesn't".

[Rhinodawg]

2. Funny...except ..

one reportedly has 10,000 members and are kiliing countless daily...

the other a few hundred members and kill occasionally.


But really no difference.

[Fred Sanders]

4. The KKK has not killed many folk? And wants to kill more.

So the only difference is a matter of capacity....they are the same kind of hateful folks distorting religion, why is that so hard to get?

The issue is distortion of religion, not the current kill count.

[Jamaal510]

18. +1

"The issue is distortion of religion, not the current kill count".

[samsingh]

10. this is not the same thing

the islamic group rules by sharia law which is part of the religion

[CJCRANE]

44. So what's this Biblical Law that the RW fundies keep talking about?

[samsingh]

47. it's not being applied at a government level

[CJCRANE]

49. Um...that's exactly what the GOP/Tea Party are trying to do all over America!

The christian fundies and muslim fundies are all part of the same thing. They are bankrolled by the same people. They are designed to keep us divided and keep us ignorant.

[samsingh]

55. that's why i'm a progressive and vote against them

but even those fundies are not killing tens of thousands of people.

you can easily google and see a hundred men lying on their stomach and being shot to death. That's one incident of many. Girls are being forced into being sex slaves for people who are kiling in the name of religion. these are the same people that will stone women to death for suggested adultry or even listening to music.

i'm not sure why you don't know that or acknowledge it.

[CJCRANE]

56. What was the whole war on terror about?

Bush and Blair launched their crusade and the GOP thought they were in a war against Islam, that's why they didn't notice when we attacked the wrong country. Look up General Boykin and all the various atrocities carried out under the neocons.

I don't want to watch atrocity videos, that's how they radicalize jihadis. Now the MSM is trying to create christian jihadis by bombarding us with all this propaganda.

They are all part of the same thing, a huge war machine that wants us all fighting each other while they bleed the treasury dry.

Just say no to the MIC.

[Dems to Win]

11. KKK well represents Christianity as practiced in the Americas for hundreds of years

The real Christianity is the religion as real people practice it. Same for Islam.

KKK says they are Christian, ISIL says they are Muslim. I believe them.

[Fred Sanders]

14. You believe what the KKK and ISIS say? Really......

[Dems to Win]

19. Yes, on this one matter. I accept it when people tell me what religion they are practicing.

I have no doubt they believe they are practicing their religions. Therefore, they are.

Same is true of the gentle, peace-loving Quakers. They are practicing their Christianity.

Anyone can muster Bible verses proving the Quakers or the KKK are practicing 'real' Christianity. Personally, I don't believe there is any such thing. The religion is what each individual practicing it chooses to make it. For Islam, as well.

[YoungDemCA]

26. OK

Then what about all the billions of Christians and Muslims who don't go around killing people? Or indeed, preaching hate.

Do they not count now?

[Dems to Win]

28. Of course they count. They are all practicing their religion as they understand it.

I believe that KKK is practicing Christianity as they understand it, as are the Baptists and the Methodists.

There are no arbiters to dictate what is 'real' Christianity or Islam. Each member and sect makes these decisions for themselves.

[Boom Sound 416]

21. Isn't that all the more reason then

To combat them and stop them from killing civilians of other religions and sects

[YoungDemCA]

27. It's one thing to say that these are religious organizations

It's another thing entirely to claim that they are representative of their respective religions.

And actually, the KKK and ISIL are more political organizations, anyway.

[WinkyDink]

57. Really? Because I've seen the entire Catholic faith get excoriated over pedophiliac priests.

So, let Islam take it for a change.

(IOW, I don't worship at the altar of editorial cartoons.)