If only parents used corporal discipline more, there would be less youth violence

[cali]

In the good ol' days, kids were respectful. they knew right from wrong. In our politically correct, feminized society, parents can't even discipline their children.

I can't tell you how often that comment (almost word for word, except they use another word for feminized) is repeated across the internet. I've read hundreds, maybe thousands of comments about the AP case and for the many, maybe even the majority that defend, justify or just plain support AP's beating on his son(s), that's pretty much the essence of their message: our society was better when we used corporal punishment more frequently. Only problem with this:

It's false.

Youth violence has dropped sharply over the past few decades.

http://johnjayresearch.org/rec/files/2013/10/databit201304.pdf

[old man 76]

1. I wonder

Cali is the answer to all our problems getting back to the good old days.

[cali]

2. I think you missed the point of the op

[H2O Man]

3. So you advocate

prayer in school? Is that where we went wrong?














(smile)

[cali]

4. and paddling in school. yeah, more hitting and prayer before each strike

will lead to less violence.

[Sancho]

5. The drop in youth violence may have nothing to do with "discipline" or law enforcement.

One interesting theory is that the availability of abortion and birth control simply eliminates unwanted pregnancies that constitute the kids who are likely to commit crimes!

Correlation doesn't imply causality. There are no studies where one group of kids are in a "paddling" group while another randomly comparative group are in a "non-paddling" group, so generalization is impossible.

If you study "discipline", you eventually have to conclude that it's situational! Even though there are known ways to encourage better behavior and "acceptable" ways to punish offenders, no method or system is universally correct for every parent, child, school classroom, etc. At some point, a knowledgeable person has to make a choice what to do on a particular day, and likely there will always be others who disagree or those who would do differently. That includes spanking, embarrassing kids, isolation (time-out), rewards (lots of people disagree with rewarding kids), peer pressure, physical restraints (handcuffing kids?), various counseling sessions, rules (uniforms), detention, logical consequences, medications, and the list goes on and on.

Anyone who has raised kids or taught school or been a youth leader knows that it's never simple to change the internal value of kids (what the post refers to as "respect&quot . I don't think we really know why reported violence trends up and down, but we do know that parents and teachers who demonstrate effective skills usually have a large tool kit of methods and they usually make good decisions that are appropriate for the time and place.

[onecent]

6. Maybe youth violence has dropped sharply, but let me

tell you as a 69 year old grandma with 16 grandchildren between my 2nd husband
and myself...the kids have NO respect, NO empathy and unless they are going to college on a full scholarship (because of their brains) they are living at home and directing EVERYTHING IN THE HOME....including when they need a NEW IPHONE and car insurance.
They don't say thank you...or please...don't lift a finger and feel entitled to EVERYTHING.
And also I would consider a few of them "violent" toward their parents.

I would give anything for the 50's to come back...

[cali]

7. yeah. the 50's. pre civil rights, pre womens' rights

great time.

I have a 28 year old son. 3 years ago he was living in Colorado, had a great job and loved it out there. I had a serious accident and he moved back to Vermont and moved in with me until I was back on my feet. I never spanked him, and it wasn't like he was a perfect child but he never got into trouble at school or with the law.

I know a lot of young people and they sure aren't as you describe them. At all.

[trumad]

9. yeah me to

Coloreds didn't use our water fountains. Good times.

[Feral Child]

19. Righteous snark, trumad.

I had to read that post twice, just couldn't believe the statement wasn't sarcasm, but, no, that person actually longs for the '50s.

[FSogol]

11. My sons (22 and 18) and their friends are not how you describe youth. Both help out w/o being

asked, chip in for household expenses, and volunteer a couple of shifts weekly at the local food bank. When the youngest went away to college this Fall, he found a local food bank to volunteer at.

Your imaginary 50's is a load of BS. The golden days look better since you were younger, but only look better because adults shielded you from reports of lynchings, rapes, abuses, and injustices. Go to your library and look up some papers from the year you were born. The crimes and problems were just the same or worse than today. My 2 cents.

[countryjake]

12. What you've described seems to me to be simply the results of poor parenting...

and hitting one's children does nothing to teach either respect or empathy, quite the opposite, actually.

But yeah, let's go back to those "good old days" when parents could literally beat the shit out of their kids and the authorities would never even raise an eyebrow, let alone enter a home to protect a child from physical abuse.


Yeah, sure, that's the ticket! That'll teach 'em!

[KitSileya]

22. The poster neglects to realize the one thing all their grandchildren have in common

- parents raised by the poster. Perhaps the poster did a bad job, that then made their grandchildren's parents do a bad job. Perhaps the poster's children did a bad job parenting because they didn't have a good model on which to base their own parenting, and went too far in the opposite direction, substituting spankings (abuse) with too much leniency.

Food for thought, no?

[countryjake]

26. There are lots of reasons why someone might arrive at those conclusions...

as stated in that post. Being in the same age-bracket as she is, I often hear similar opinions on the "youth" of today coming from folk my age, and frankly, it aggravates me. What you stated in your response to treestar is so true...in the difficult world that we're all faced with today, I am amazed and encouraged by so many young people, including the ones I know personally and generally, in all the ones we read and hear about who are determined to bring about positive change and aren't just sitting around waiting for a better world to happen.

If I were to give a genuinely serious response to the above poster, I might also suggest that children sometimes behave totally out of character when they're around their grandparents, so perhaps her progeny aren't actually so bad, after all.

[treestar]

14. absurd generalization

the kids in my family say thank you and are quite loving towards the older people, much more so than my generation, for whom it was "uncool" to have anything to do with your folks.

This must be limited to your family, caused by the way you raised your kids. Perhaps you were so negative to them that they indulge their kids, not wanting to treat them the way they were treated by you.

I can't imagine having that kind of resentment towards your own younger generation.

[KitSileya]

23. I had the same thought,

and posted it above. Honestly, today's kids live in a much more complex world than we do (a coup or disaster somewhere may have direct consequences on their lives, they get more news/connections/have more decisions to make etc than ever before) that I am continually impressed by how they handle it. I am not impressed by their parents, who would much rather plop their kids in front of the tv, while they themselves train for a half-marathon.

[laundry_queen]

20. What baloney

As the parent of 4 kids, 2 who are teens, I'm around youth quite a bit (revolving door of friends around here, lol). I've never encountered that at all. Every single one of my daughters' friends is a delight. They are thoughtful, empathetic, polite, helpful and definitely not entitled. They all have jobs and work their butt off in school, and they all volunteer with numerous causes. The teens where I live are a million times better than the ones I grew up with (I'm in the same town). Many studies show things are getting better, not worse.

Sounds like maybe a parenting failure on your kids' part if your grandkids act that way. if they are violent towards their parents, I'd be willing to wager they were spanked.

Thank GOD it's not the 50's. I'm sure, as a single parent, I'd be in total poverty as I wouldn't get any child support since those laws didn't exist. And my brother's marriage (along with my SIL's parents' marriage) wouldn't have been allowed to exist. So HELL NO.

[cemaphonic]

24. I always love a chance to post this chestnut:

‘The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.’

It may or may not be Socrates, but it's definitely at least as old as the 50s.

[treestar]

25. There are always bad kids, and always people willing to

broad brush the younger generation.

[LeftishBrit]

28. According to the Old Shepherd in Shakespeare's 'Winter's Tale'

'I would that there were no age between ten and three-and-twenty, or that youth would sleep out the rest, for in the between there is nothing but wronging the ancientry, getting wenches with child, stealing, fighting.'


Juveniles have evidently been delinquent for a long time!

[NickB79]

29. Cause nothing teaches "respect" like a good beating

Sounds like something they teach the cops in Ferguson

It also sounds like you raised a bunch of children with no idea how to parent a child. A parent who has to resort to striking their children to teach them respect and to behave is someone who has no idea how to parent, IMO. It's the fallback of someone with no rational thinking ability or patience.

[mercuryblues]

30. Yet my

kids range 13 - 32 are completely different. Volunteered for animal rescue group. My youngest son grew out his hair for the sole purpose of donating to Locks of Love. He will also buy friends their school lunch if they are overdrawn. The older ones will stop on the road to pick up trash that someone threw out the back of their truck and take it to the dump.

By no means are my kids perfect, but I don't focus on the bad and spread the good. the result is they do more good than bad.

[trumad]

8. From what I read...Cali is not advocating corporal punishment..

She's pointing out that it doesn't work. At least I think so.

[cali]

10. yes. that's why I posted the link

[randome]

21. I thought you were clear enough. Fascinating how some drew the wrong conclusion.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]

[FSogol]

27. Some people only read the subject title.

[uwep]

13. This is the best response I have read

I am a man and raised two daughters from early teens into their 20's. Both had to be approached differently. My oldest was a responsible respectful young lady, while my youngest was on the wild side. My oldest responded to praise but my youngest to advantage of praise. My youngest would "cut off her nose to spite her face" and punishment, especially corporal punishment would cause her to act out even if it caused her harm. My oldest resented me for the way I disciplined my youngest, and it was always a balancing act to keep peace, but I survived, and so did my two girls. They now are responsible adults, and even though their mother left, they had a good moral base to develop from because of their mother. I guess all I am saying is every child is different and it is up to the parent to recognize that and act accordingly. Corporal punishment is not necessary, children can be handled with love and should be handled with love. Maybe they will pass it forward.

[CaptainTruth]

15. Using violence to force someone to bow to your will ...

... never seemed to me like a civilized thing to do. Teaching young impressionable minds that violence is the way to subdue another person & get what you want has consequences. I've seen first hand how men who were hit as children went on to hit their wives.

[DrDan]

16. if we allow this for children, I am not sure why we find it criminal with adults

Why can't a manager/supervisor slap an employee "up-side" the head to correct behavior on-the-job?

I guess the real question is, if it is criminal for adults, then why not for children?

[cali]

17. I suppose the answer to that would be something along the lines

of the rights of parents to raise their children as they see fit. It's so weird to me, but that seems to be the response that is most common regarding Adrian Peterson.

[DrDan]

18. but the same line of reasoning would suggest businesses/corporations

should have the right to discipline employees "as they see fit" as well (they are "persons", after all).

an outcome of adults making the laws/rules rather than the children ("don't you dare touch me - but beating my children is ok in the context of responsible parenting)