Every child when I was one

[clydefrand]

must have been physically 'abused'. Why, every one of us that I knew had been whipped with a limb from a tree or scrub. Can't you just imagine every parent in going to jail for teaching their child a lesson about why you really shouldn't be doing bad things.
(I'm 79)
It usually only takes once, then you don't ever do any thing naughty again.

[kcr]

1. Things change

Often for the better. Kids grow up and mature and stop doing naughty things now, too. Only they do it without being beaten bloody with tree branches. It's progress.

[dumbcat]

73. Things DO change

And sometimes we like that, and sometimes we don't.

[kcr]

74. Yes. That's the primary difference between conservatives and progressives.

Conservatives don't like change. Progressives do.

[dumbcat]

77. I was speaking of the "we" progressives

"We" don't always like change. We don't like it when the government changes to Republican rule. We don't like climate change. We certainly don't like a lot of Supreme Court decisions (read, changes.) We don't like the way the economy is changing. But things DO change. Always will.

[kcr]

79. I was speaking of societal norms changing over time

Not speaking of change generally as the word is broadly defined.

[dumbcat]

82. Do you not think Supreme Court decisions

drive societal norms? At least somewhat?

But I agree with your general point.

[kcr]

86. What does that have to do with what we're talking about?

Conservatives don't want things to change. They like to look back at the old days fondly. Progressives desire change. That was my point. I don't know why you're asking me about the Supreme court, but yeah, SCOTUS is at least somewhat influential in that regard. Progressives are likely to desire members who don't subscribe to conservative values and think the old way of doing things is just fine.

[dumbcat]

87. I take it, then, that you believe

and progressives believe, that all change (even all societal change) is good? We desire change, no matter what it is?

I think that is what you just said. And that's OK. Far be it from me, a newbie, to challenge your beliefs. I just thought I would throw in an opinion. Probably should have known better. I'll go back to lurking.

[kcr]

89. No. I don't know why you'd take it that way.

It's not the definition of change, as in change your underwear. Change as in women aren't allowed to vote. That's not a good way to do things. Let's allow women to vote. Change as in gee, the earth is getting warmer. We might want to do something about that. Change as in maybe it isn't a good idea to beat children bloody with sticks. Progressives tend to be more open to doing something about things. I know if it's your first day it can be confusing to get the definitions down.

[dumbcat]

98. Things change. nt

[kcr]

103. It's going to be okay n/t

[dumbcat]

119. OK, I got it. Really, I been schooled.

Progressives like (good) change. (Not bad change.) The changes we like are "good" whether the goodness is explicitly stated or implied. I've got it!

[kcr]

125. Nope

Not really.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

2. my grandmother whipped me with whatever she could grab

she never hit bare skin and never above the waist... but I knew what I had done was very wrong or very dangerous. over the seven summers i stayed with her i would imagine i got 10-12 whippin's... the only one i remember i KNOW i earned it...

sP

[merrily]

7. She had no other way of disciplining you?

If so, how sad for both of you.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

8. none that were effective...

my cousin and i were routinely into stuff. it was summer and we were bored. she would try separating us... sending us to our rooms... scolding... she even denied a meal or two. heck, she put us to work doing stuff we hated... and we just did a piss-poor job of whatever it was or walked off the job.

i only remember those summers with fondness. two mischievous boys running around a farm all summer getting into all sorts of trouble. could have been a book...

sP

[merrily]

10. How sad for both of you. See also Reply 5, as to false equivalencies.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

68. not sad at all

and for you to assume such says a lot about your worldview. she lived a long life full of love and joy. so, she spanked us a few times that i can barely remember.

and as for your false equivalency remark... i wasn't comparing my treatment to anything. i was responding to a post about another person who was spanked as a child and doesn't seem bitter about it. i will simply say that there is a difference between a spanking and a beating... but people like you probably won't agree.

sP

[merrily]

70. Who said she lived a short life full of sadness? I said her not having a way of disciplining you

(that worked) other than hitting you was sad for both of you.

As for my false equivalency remark this thread is obviously about a recent news story, a football player who beat a four year old. What did you think this thread was about?

i will simply say that there is a difference between a spanking and a beating... but people like you probably won't agree.

People like me? LOL! And won't you feel silly when you read my other posts on this thread that say exactly that.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

90. no... still not sad

it worked for us...

now, as to my 'people like you' comment, please accept my apologies. i get very defensive of people who assume my life or really anyone's life or their decisions is either good or bad from such a minor detail as the one i provided. i am not familiar with the story (well, i am now)... the only football story i was privy too prior to this morning was the Ray beating his wife story.

sP

[merrily]

92. Dude you are the one who made comments about me, people like me, my life, my worldview

and my parenting style, as you assumed it to be.

I said nothing about your life or your grandmother's life. I responded to what YOU posted about how she disciplined you and how nothing else would have worked.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

104. and you assumed a sad situation in our lives regarding my discipline...

but hey... see it your way an i will remember that trying to apologize to you is a waste of time...

sP

[merrily]

110. Baloney. I assumed less than zero. And faux apologies usually are a waste of time.

You: My grandmother hit me. No other form of discipline would have been effective.

Me: How sad for both of you. (Clearly, my opinion about something you said. No assumption whatever about your life or your grandmother's life. Actually, not even an opinion. I found it sad. That is a fact.)


You then accused me and people like me of all kinds of things based solely on YOUR assumptions about my finding hitting a child sad. And your Reply 90 to me was more additional insult than it was authentic apology. Moreover, even your alleged apology was only as to your remark about "people like me," not for the other things you said about me--and your comment about people like me was clearly disproven by my other posts on this thread anyway. So, yeah, a waste of time is right.


Still fact free, after all these posts, prodigaljunkmail.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

144. have a nice morning... nt

[GeorgeGist]

142. Apparently the whippings weren't effective either.

[yeoman6987]

78. You clearly do not have children

[kcr]

80. You clearly don't know a lot of people n/t

[merrily]

81. Really? Keep reading the thread.

[Shankapotomus]

3. One time everyone was a cannibal

Like cannibalism, maybe some customs should just stop.

I'm sure there was a time someone said: "Can you imagine every tribe member being shunned for partaking of human flesh?"

[laundry_queen]

20. +1000

Now that we know how detrimental hitting is to a child, we should stop. This "I was hit and I was fine" stuff is so dumb. Define "fine". Nearly every study and by every measure, kids do better when they aren't hit. You'd be 'more' fine if you wouldn't have been hit. And not everyone hit back then. My grandparents never hit their kids, and my mom said in their community people knew who the kid beaters were. My dad was physically abused and abusive to me. I thought it was normal and that all kids were hit too, until I had kids and talked about it with some of my old childhood friends - guess what. They weren't all hit. I just thought they were because it was my normal.

I have kids and I have never hit them, not once. There are many other ways to deal with bad behavior. With all the resources out there now, only lazy people hit their kids to get them to behave, imo. I can only hope someday hitting your kids goes the way of cannibalism - in the far, far past and totally taboo.

[Shankapotomus]

39. Yep.

You don't know what's real when you're raised in the insular confines of a family. You sometimes can't even see your own abuse. Especially, the non-physical, passive aggressive kind. You can report the physical stuff when you finally realize what's happening. But there are no laws against passive aggression on a child or sibling because it's so hard to prove. It has to rise to the level of neglect. So you could be aware you're being emotionally and mentally abused and still have no recourse and no solid proof. The simply act of a parent not helping you with something important to your growth when they can and should, to me, can be abuse.

[laundry_queen]

54. Oh for sure.

As someone who had narcissistic parents I know exactly the passive-aggressive stuff you are talking about. Boy did that mess me up. The physical abuse did too, but it's interesting to see people's reactions when I say I was hit often (they'll cringe) but when I tell them the everyday manipulation and mind games my parents played when I was growing up, they tell me I'm being overly sensitive. Thankfully I discussed this with a very highly qualified therapist and she helped me to see how much my parents mental crap hurt me and how wrong it was (and that it was, indeed, abuse). I recognized the physical stuff was wrong when I was still a teenager, but the other stuff - took me until I was 34 years old to see it and come to terms with the harm it caused.

[Shankapotomus]

66. I sometimes think the mental stuff is the most hurtful

because someone really has to not like you to put that much thought and "care" into emotional abuse and manipulation. Hitting can often be an instinctive reaction for abusers but very often emotional abuse is planned ahead of time. Scenarios are set up and carefully designed to make you feel bad or used or unwanted. And it's terrible to actually know your parent put that much thought into getting away with making you feel like crap. And then of course, nobody believes you when you try to tell them.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

51. The old 'that's how we did it in the past' argument is always a fail as far as

I'm concerned. Simply because something has been done for years, or even centuries or millennia is no reason to continue doing something. When you find a better way, or realize that what you're doing is harmful, you stop and do it differently.

[laundry_queen]

55. Exactly. nt

[SammyWinstonJack]

85. I never had the stomach to whip/hit/beat my two sons and so I never did.

My step monster beat the crap out of my brother while my dad just stood by and did nothing.

He never hit us and yet he let her beat my brother bloody.

My step sisters and I would beg him to make her stop and he did nothing.

She took a broom to him when he was sixteen and he finally fought back, grabbing the broom from her and telling her that she was never going to hit him again.

She never did.

That incident happened in front of her parents who were shocked. Her father spoke up, telling her that she was never hit as a child.

She didn't like us.

She verbally abused me because that is what worked, with me. I often just wished she would hit me and get it over with.

[enough]

4. I'm 70, and I was never hit or struck in any way by my parents or any other adult. (nt)

[merrily]

6. Luckily, before I had a child, my husband's father and uncle

talked about how unfair it was for any adult to hit a child.

And I will add here, especially any adult on whom that child depends for food, shelter and medicine.


We have enough fucking leverage over our children without getting physical, for pity sake. And, if violence against those whom we've given life is all we've got, then maybe we don't have enough brains to raise kids.

Also, while people talk about the unconditional love of parent for child, my observation is that the love of a young child for a parent is truly unconditional. A child whose step dad was in prison for holding her arm in boiling water, scarring her from wrist to elbow for life, told me how much she missed him.

[PassingFair]

67. +10000

It's illegal to assault another person, and rightly so.

Why would anyone strike the most vulnerable of persons?

People see children as projects, not people. They are vulnerable PEOPLE.

[merrily]

5. So, no one your age group committed any crimes? Or even played hookey? Or talked back?

When you and every other child got hit with a switch, did you all get deep cuts that required medical attention? If not, why in hell are you advancing a false equivalency relating to physical abuse of children?


Member since 2004. 4000 posts in ten years.

I am always amazed to see what it is that people who don't post often get motivated enough to post here about.

[BKH70041]

9. I principle I agree.

My parents told me they used to have to go and cut their own switch. I usually got it with a ruler, fly swatter, or a belt.

I have no problem paddling a child's behind, but unlike when we were kids, you can't do it in public anymore. And at least people have become more aware you never need to punish a child if you're angry, and that would include of all you ever do is send them to their room with no TV or something. It seems Peterson knew immediately he had whipped the boy too hard and regretted it. I don't think he's a bad parent.

[merrily]

13. "Deep cuts" on the legs of a four year old--and for pushing his brother, no less?

Yeah, a prince of a parent. And Rice is a prince of a husband, too.

Give me a break.

[BKH70041]

15. Do you not think he loves his son?

I do.

[merrily]

18. What that hell does that have to do with the price of tea in china?

Loads of people who love their children are crappy parents, even deadly parents.

Please don't move the goalpost. Not on injuring children. Please.

[merrily]

23. Bullshit. As I said, parents who love their kids have killed their kids.

Love does not equal good parent. Neither does hitting a four year old so hard for pushing his brother that he requires medical attention.

Get a grip.

[BKH70041]

28. If you kill your kid then you don't love them.

I don't care what they might claim.

[merrily]

35. Again, get a grip. You just excused a football player for

hitting a four year old harder than he allegedly intended to hit him. When you are out of control, you are out of control. It is not THAT much harder to hit a four year old hard enough to kill him than it is to hit him hard enough to give him deep cuts that require medical attention.

Don't be so fact free.

[BKH70041]

47. No, you're misprepresentating the truth.

I never condoned how hard he hit him and admitted it was too much. I just said it doesn't mean he's a bad parent. If you're going to talk to me, you need to do it based upon my positions and not your suppositions. But you're going to have to demonstrate to me you have the mental capacity to do that, which you haven't even come close to doing, or there's no reason for me to continue.

[merrily]

57. Your posts speak for themselves.

As for what I have to do to talk to you, LMAO. Get over yourself.

[GeorgeGist]

143. You're misrepresenting bad parents ...

As good parents .

[RedCappedBandit]

29. Whipping your kids genitals too hard doesn't make you a bad parent.

Welp. There it is.

[BKH70041]

31. Reread what I wrote because your misrepresenting the truth.

I know it's a hobby at this site to twist what people say and then claim they're not, but it's still a hobby of some at this site whether they admit it or not.

[merrily]

37. A hobby at this site? Which sites do you usually prefer?

[RedCappedBandit]

63. That's what he did, and you're saying he's not a bad parent because of it.

Or is that not what you're saying?

[kcr]

34. Yes, it does.

The definition of bad parent isn't lack of love, though of course that can be a factor. A person can love their child but lack the knowledge or capability to be a good parent.

[enough]

117. A hard truth, but truth nevertheless. I've known plenty of alcoholics, for example,

who ever so sincerely love their kids, but don't have the ability to put that into actions. I don't doubt the sincerity of their "love," but the love alone does not equate to being a good parent.

[cali]

43. It has nothing to with it. Not morally and sure as hell not legally.

By definition, beating your toddler so hard that a week later there are still welts, open cuts and bruises from his lower lower back to his ankles and on his scrotum- not to mention defensive wounds to his hands, and stuffing leaves in his mouth, makes you not only a bad parent but a criminal.

that kind of "love" is damaging.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

56. No, it doesn't (have everything to do with it).

Loving a kid does not automatically make you a 'good parent'.

So saying he 'loved him' does not preclude him being a lousy parent.

And not only did he 'whip him too hard', he CONTINUED whipping him. Even if you want to pretend that you can whip a child and be a good parent, wouldn't you assume you'd gone too far the very first time you drew blood? Not continue for so long that you left welts and cuts all over the kid? Arms, legs, butt, scrotum, all over his fricking body?

He's a bad parent.

[Feral Child]

96. Yes it does.

Loving a child isn't enough. Nurturing counts, too.

That individual has some rage issues and shouldn't be around children.


Do you have children? Do you love them?

Do you beat them bloody? I doubt it. I think the thought of your child bleeding from your punishment is horrifying to you.

[BlindTiresias]

131. If you whip your child's genitals

You are a probably a sick fuck, sorry.

[XemaSab]

121. Ray Rice loves his wife

You can love people and still be awful towards them.

[cali]

30. He's a criminal child abusing piece of shit.

the pictures are appalling. Hitting children for discipline is one of the most fucked up things I can imagine- and it's ineffective. There are numerous studies that provide evidence of that.

"disciplining" children by hitting them is bad parenting. It teaches a terrible lesson early in life. sick. sick. sick.

[merrily]

40. I agree, but not all hitting of a child is the same..

I've been hit. I never required medical attention. I know my father loved me. However, I would not give my father any child rearing awards, and I do not excuse any hitting, but I never had deep cuts, either.

[BKH70041]

42. Then don't do it.

I and millions of others were disciplined by being spanked and are just fine. If someone isn't mature enough to know how to properly discipline their child via paddling, then they certainly shouldn't. I can see where many at this site would not qualify to do so given who they are and what they believe on any number of topics. But to reiterate, he did whip him too hard, no argument there.

[cali]

45. bullshit. You may be able to speak for yourself. But you have no right to speak for

millions of others.

[BKH70041]

49. You need to put that in your own pocket.

Mirror. Look at it.

[Tanuki]

50. Beyond the topic at hand, you seem to have some issues with "many at this site" and

"what they believe on any number of topics." Care to elaborate, since you brought it up yourself?

[Feral Child]

97. That struck me also.

He's made a number of generalized negative comments about the community. I get the impression he doesn't think much of us or this forum.

[PassingFair]

69. Would it be OK for an employer to "paddle" an errant employee?

Is it only OK to smack children around?

Or can you physically abuse anyone who is dependent upon you,
like a non-working spouse.

Where do you personally draw the line?

[GeorgeGist]

145. I think it's pretty clever from your comments ...

That you're not 'just fine'.

[cali]

64. on what facts do you base your opinion that he's not a bad parent?

[Logical]

123. LOL, "you can't do it in public anymore" because you shouldn't be doing it!! Wow. scary! nt

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

11. I'm 45 to your 79.

And I was never whipped with anything that would leave welts. One time in school, I was paddled with a big flat board, although not hard enough even to leave bruising. At home, if I did something bad as a child, Dad would yell in my face like a drill instructor. The flying spittle alone was disgusting enough to to make me not want to do such again.

Overall, my experiences were far less physically damaging, and seem to have worked just as well, without leaving me with welts and open wounds all over my body.

I think the less violence we can use, the better.

If you assaulted an adult, for any reason, and leave them with welts, bruises, and cuts over large parts of their body, do you think you wouldn't be arrested and tossed in jail? If you can see that, why would you think that someone who does the same thing to a far more defenseless child, again for any reason, even 'teaching them a lesson', should not likewise receive jail time?

[merrily]

16. It's not about age. Age is a red herring (whatever that means).

I was hit and would have hit my child, if a generation older than I had not taught me better before I got pregnant.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

19. 'red herring' generally seems to mean 'distraction' as far as I've seen.

Something you notice easily, but isn't what you want or what matters.

And sure, there are exceptions - there have been plenty of non-violent types throughout the ages. Quakers, Shakers, Jains, or just pacifists in general. But I think the overall trend over time has been to move from 'children are chattel, and you're free to 'discipline' them as you please' to more of a 'children are a responsibility, and shouldn't be harmed'.

[merrily]

22. For the record, my husband's uncle learned from my husband's father. And my

husband's father was one of 14 children. Besides that, my father-in-law's mother took in her brother and his son when her sister in law left her brother.

If, in that milieu, my father in law somehow learned that hitting kids was unfair and wrong, we can all learn it.

[Bluenorthwest]

36. The red herring is this unsupported bullshit claim that all parents of the past beat their kids

Because that is not the case.

[merrily]

44. And most definitely, not all parents of the past hit their kids so hard that deep cuts resulted.

I don't condone any hitting of a child, but equating every spanking with what this asshole did to a four year old is also bullshit.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

48. And not a claim I made, either.

So if you inferred that from my post, you inferred something I didn't imply.

We call that a 'strawman'. When you set up an argument for yourself to knock down that wasn't ever made by the other person.

(Edit: After I hit enter, the screen popped back up to the top - I can see now you were referring to the original poster's claim, not anything I said. So I take back the 'strawman', since you were talking about his post, not mine.)

[salib]

12. Good grief

[merrily]

14. +1 Says it all.

[HereSince1628]

17. I distrust the "I was abused and I still turned out ok." sorts of argument.

In the first place it's difficult to say that the speaker did in fact turn out ok. Afterall, their willingness to share could be a struggle to maintain denial about the reality of the impacts it has had on their lives. Or they may just think that all their anxieties and fears could just be normal.

Or the chickens just may not have yet come home to roost. What's the possibility that the stories aren't efforts to transform horrific realities into glorious reports of heroic survival of childhood?

Or they could have turned out ok and well adjusted ...

even if that perception largely depends upon membership in a brutal culture that nurtures the cycle of violence. Dysfunction is certainly judged in a cultural light. In our culture we have strongly endorsed memes supporting brutality "Spare the rod and spoil the child." "Fear is the beginning of wisdom."

Personally I think children are not dumb animals that only understand directions accompanied by pain. I don't think good parenting is based on fear of pain.

I think people vary in their responses to brutality. Fortunately, not all of them develop bad habits or mental disorders like cPTSD that make their adult existence a living hell.

Escape of many from that is fortunate, but that good fortune isn't generalizable and can't be argued as such.

[laundry_queen]

32. Good post.

I hate that argument too. My ex-husband says that all of the time. He thinks he's fine. I think he's a sociopath who has stolen hundreds of thousands of dollars from family members and has destroyed many lives. So claiming to be fine is not exactly an objective statement, lol.

Add to that every single study that shows hitting doesn't even work and some sociological studies that show hitting a kid makes their behavior worse...why would anyone defend it is beyond me.

[Bluenorthwest]

24. So you endorse striking a child's genitals with a stick?

It was not every parent, even when you were a kid. That's a lie you tell yourself to excuse what was done to you and that which you want done to all children.

[Le Taz Hot]

25. Bullshit!

If you're striking your child, you're already a failure as a parent. I was "spanked" too. I'm 59 years old and to this day don't want anything to do with that harpy that, not only "spanked" me but would let the boyfriends in on the fun. And just FYI, all "spanking" did was make me more defiant, taught me that might makes right and resulted in me moving out of her house at 17 years old. ANY parent who spanks a child in this day and age should go to jail for assault on a child. If you can't think of a better way of correcting a child's behavior (and study after study affirms that spanking is NOT effective), then maybe you shouldn't have any children.

I love all these people defending the abusive parents here. WHO THE HELL speaks for the child?????

[RedCappedBandit]

26. Lots of things were true when you were a child.

That doesn't make them right, or the best thing for society.

[cali]

27. Ugh. I don't give a flying fig if everyone you knew was struck with a limb

hitting children is not only disgusting, it's ineffective as discipline. It teaches that might is right. It humiliates children and your claim that it "usually only takes once, then you don't ever don anything naughty again." is utter bullshit.

And what Peterson did to his son was flat out abuse. In fact, hitting a child with a switch is abuse every time.

Btw, Peterson's little lesson to his toddler, left the child with welts and bruises and open cuts that were clearly visible in photos taken days later. The child also told doctors and police that his daddy stuffed leaves in his mouth, threatened to punch him if he told anyone, hit him with belts and had a "whooping room".

Fuck yes he should go to jail.

[rurallib]

41. Well said

children are so much smaller, have little muscle and at age 4 just beginning to learn what is acceptable.
If kids could learn through violence, our teachers would be brutes instead of the smart ones.

[yeoman6987]

84. It seems he wanted to get caught

If he was not a good parent, he would not have taken him to the hospital. He would have left them heal on his own. Psychology shows that it is a cry for help.

[cali]

108. he did not take the child to the hospital. The mother, upon the child's return to her

took the child to the doctor. And according to the kid, he threatened to punch him if he told anyone and stuffed leaves in his mouth while beating on him.

He is far from a good father. He is an abusive piece of shit.

I find it shocking that you call him a good father.

[notadmblnd]

33. Must have

I've never struck my child. Course he's beat his own ass on several occasions. Like the time he axed a spray paint can, Goof Off stings when you have to use it on your skin. The boy never took an ax to a spray paint can again. No beating required.

[meaculpa2011]

38. In spite of the fact that I was a model child...

and never did anything wrong, my mother whacked me with the wooden spoon (Italian version of the switch) on occasion.

It's the old joke: My father never had to spank me. Why, you never did anything bad? No, my mother beat the snot out of me.

With my son, a little tap on the palm was sufficient for a quick lesson. For my daughter, no amount of corporal punishment would have been sufficient so I had to find other ways. In any case, I made a vow early on that I would never discipline either of them in anger. I only came close once. A teenaged girl CAN provoke beyond tolerance, but I caught myself, turned around and went for a long bike ride.

They're 24 and 21 now and have all the problems and quirks the rest of us have.

There is no magic formula for parenting. Do what you think is right and pray for the best.

[merrily]

52. I was a model child, too. My son, never hit, is much better than I ever was.

[SocratesInSpirit]

46. I can't believe I'm seeing this sick shit on a progressive site

I was hit as a child and I was not okay. My father hit us with his hands, belts, and in the summer my sister and I got the special treat of flyswatters on our bare legs. After my parents divorced, my father continued to hit us, and it culminated with him kicking me in the face when I was in seventh grade. He knew he'd screwed up big time because times were changing (1990s), begged me not to tell my mother, and because I'd been so beaten down by him, I didn't tell anyone for many years.

My mother never hit us. Guess which parent I loved and respected and did not fear and loathe? It certainly wasn't my dad.

Fortunately, with therapy, I managed to work through my anger and pain, repair the relationship with my father, and I have a happy and stable life with a good husband who would never lay a finger on anyone. I also have a daughter, and I will NEVER hit her. People who defend this kind of discipline are violent, regressive brutes.

[merrily]

72. I know, right?

I have a feeling that at least one or two of the posters might be DUers under false pretenses, but that's just me.

[bobduca]

94. that's because

it's a neo-liberal cesspool.

[gollygee]

53. Are you really defending parents hitting children with sticks?

Wow.

[Shrike47]

58. My mother spanked me on (rare) occasion but took a belt to my brother.

That scared the hell out of me.

If you hit a child's genitals, or leave welts still visible a week later, you have engaged in child abuse and the local Child Protection agency needs to intervene. People sometimes escalate the violence to the point that they kill the child because they don't get the response from the child they feel is warranted.

Hitting is not acceptable. All it teaches a child is that it's OK to hit, assuming the child survives the lesson.

[Earth_First]

59. As a child, I was struck in a violent manner on several occasions...

...often in anger over behaviour that was typical of a child.

It created a rift between my father and I that took over twenty years to repair.

My father verbally recognized this with me about ten years ago when he realized through self-reflection that this was unnecessary and the because of the violent punishment resulted in our empty relationship for so many years.

I love my parents to the end of the world regardless...however we lost a lot of years as a result of this.

The emotional trauma that punishment deemed 'appropriate' by social normality has has always existed to the child...regardless of the 'years ago' meme.

[upaloopa]

60. I'm 68 and my parents never hit us and I

learned by listening to them

[UglyGreed]

61. When my father

would get drunk he use to beat us all with sticks and belts. I called the police twice and they let him be both times. I never made another call again. This was 1973.

[frogmarch]

62. I wasn't. I'm 70 and

my parents never spanked me or slapped me or abused me in any other way either. I had abusive teachers in elementary school, though, and they never got fired for it, so I know that mistreating kids was generally considered acceptable back then. People may wonder why often nowadays, teachers aren't allowed to even lay a finger on their students. That is why.

[cali]

65. a hit and run op. don't even have the courage to post in your own thread.

[Shrike47]

71. I Googled 'football player abuse of child'and found the article about Peterson. That's child abuse.

A four year old? Cummon, you gotta know it's abuse when you do it. Shame on him.

[alphafemale]

75. ....and I so miss the songs of our happy pickaninnies" WTF! Seriously?

It is not even acceptable to use violence or pain against an animal to train them anymore.

You advocate an adult assaulting a child as acceptable?

If you have to use pain to discipline a child you are a FAILURE of a human being.

Edited. For clarity. The first statement is meant to illustrate how dated the OP thought is.

[Shrike47]

76. I think it's generally agreed these days that training an animal through rewards is the way to go.

[abelenkpe]

83. Never hit my kids

And yet we're always being told how well behaved they are in school, restaurants, on planes, out at the park, etc. There are so many other ways to get teach children how to be considerate and polite to those they share the world with that don't require physical abuse or threats of violence. I'm sorry your parents didn't know about them at the time but luckily more and more are aware of ways to raise their children without violence. I hope your post isn't an attempt to justify or condone hitting a child.

[chervilant]

88. So, you think it's appropriate to use physical force to 'punish' children?

You think it's appropriate to flog a child to "teach a lesson"?

I strongly encourage you to read Richard Gelles, Murray Straus, et. al to understand how research has linked the physical 'punishment' of children with "unintended consequences" (their term), including low self-esteem, trust issues, depression, and violence toward intimate partners.

I strongly encourage you to read anything by Alice Miller, and pay close attention to her discussion of our culture's adjuration that we shall not 'disrespect' our parents by questioning or criticizing their parenting skills. Her description of our species' parenting as 'poisonous pedagogy' is most enlightening.

Children are the only members of our society that we can strike with impunity. We've codified 'physical punishment' in order to allow for it and distinguish it from abuse! If you hit anyone else, including animals, you're subject to a plethora of legal repercussions. (In fact, the first child abuse case had to be tried using legislation against animal abuse, because there were no laws against child abuse!)

As you might surmise, I am strongly opposed to hitting children.

[Gormy Cuss]

91. Nah, it never took only one whipping or switching, or spanking.

That's one of the reasons why those forms of discipline are going by the wayside. Other discipline measure, albeit often equally as futile, don't require a parent to inflict pain on his or her child in the process.

But even back in the good old days when these were considered good forms of discipline, there were limits. Most parents briefly swatted a child; some parents beat them to the point of bruising, or welts breaking the skin, or sometimes even to the point of broken bones. That wasn't generally acceptable even when you were a child, although in some communities beating the devil out of the child was considered a good thing.


eta: and yes, I was spanked as child. It was considered normal.

[bobduca]

93. It was bullshit 79 years ago

it's bullshit now.

[Autumn]

95. I remember Grandma making ME go out and cut that switch she was going to use on me

The transgression I got caught and punished for I only did once. God I loved that woman, some of the best memories of my life were spent with her.

[NYC_SKP]

99. Not sure if your rofl is sincere.

Your subject line consistent with my personal experience.

I hope you wouldn't make light of a serious problem.

[Autumn]

100. It wasn't a serious problem for me.

I did wrong I was spanked or switched. That's MY personal memory and take on MY childhood. I was loved.

[NYC_SKP]

102. It's probably a matter of context.

My sister tells me that smacks to my head as an infant caused my hearing loss.

I'm not against consequences for bad behavior, but there are possibly limits to their utility.

[Autumn]

106. I was never slapped or smacked, only a couple of times was I switched by Granny.

We lived in an area where there were mines shafts and other dangers. I got caught playing in the wrong place where I had been told not to go and Granny switched me. Never went to those places or did those things again. It was a much different time then.

[NYC_SKP]

109. Different times, indeed! And I hope you'll accept a hug.

I was raised by my grandmother on a decrepit farm setting, mom went to work (in leg braces, a victim of polio) and one day my Nonnie told us that because we were bad mom wasn't going to come home.

You kids are bad kids and because of you your mother is not going to come home, ever, until you're good.

~sigh~

[Autumn]

114. I'm sorry that your Nonnie said that. My Granny took care of us while Mom worked

she made our clothes, fed us , played with us, read to us and taught us things. Most of all she loved us. She could play a mean game of tag and for a tiny woman she sure was fast. Grandpa worked the oil fields so when she would visit him sometimes we got to go and those trips were always so much fun.

[Shrike47]

105. You exemplify the big problem for kids; they often love their abusers.

Of course, what is abuse verses what is appropriate discipline can be a complicated line to draw, but we tend to forgive those we love. Who knows, it might beat weeks of silent disapproval.

[Autumn]

107. That was the normal a long time ago.

[In_The_Wind]

101. IMO: Creating physical pain to punish a child only makes things worse.

[NYC_SKP]

111. Been there, done that.

No kids from me or sis.

No incentive.

Just fear.

[In_The_Wind]

115. The fear factor didn't work with me.

Just hatred, mistrust and loneliness.

Is it any wonder that I decided not to become a mother. Clearly, the pain left from an abused childhood shapes our choices.

[Bettie]

112. I have memories of spankings

My father would slowly take off his belt and walk toward us (we'd be standing in a row, waiting) while singing his "spanking song".

Then, we'd all have to drop our pants and lie over the couch so he could use his belt on each of us in turn.

He kept singing the song the whole time.

I still have a scar on the back of my leg from the time he lost his grip on the belt buckle.

My mother's weapon of choice was a big, metal serving spoon.

We were careful never to do the same thing twice and we all got really good at reading their faces and body language, but the rules were never the same day to day. What would be fine one day would get you a beating the next day.

Ah, good times.

I don't spank my kids. At. All. Ever.

And you know what? They are extremely well behaved kids.

Physical violence doesn't do anything but teach kids that bigger and stronger people can force younger and/or weaker people to do what they tell them to.

My kids understand why they should or should not do things.

The only things they really do 'wrong' are being too loud and bickering with one another, neither of which is all that big of a deal. Certainly not anything worth beatings.

[SheilaT]

113. I did not grow up in a home where we were whipped

with a limb. Obviously, I had a very bizarre and unusual childhood, according to you.

And again, the pious recitation that "I was beaten as a child and look at how good I turned out" is bullshit. Although, according to you, "It usually only takes once, then you don't ever do any thing naughty again." then you were only whipped once and never ever misbehaved again. I'm impressed, if that's actually true. Instead, what I see are reports from those beaten as children is that they were beaten a whole lot more than once. So either such punishment did not permanently squelch bad behavior, or the person in question simply did different wrong things over and over, and never got around to understanding the general rule about what was wrong, and why not to do it.

I raised two kids without beating them, and they've grown up quite fine. Strangely enough, because according to the happy advocates of corporal punishment, they should be some kind of terrible human beings. They're not. They're the two finest young men I know, although I'm probably a bit biased.

[MineralMan]

116. Well, I'm ten years younger than you, and I don't know anyone who

was switched to the point of drawing blood from when I was a child. I got spanked as a child. But I don't know anyone who had a switch taken to them so hard that they bled.

You might want to re-enter this thread and respond to some of the replies made to your opening post. Really.

[Tikki]

118. No one ever laid a hand on me...

and the one time a teacher was going to 'spat' all his class with a 'spat' board I just walked
out of the classroom and walked home.

I did get a handful of verbal abuse in a cruel way from my parent..but not physically..


Tikki ps I am 65 yrs old

[Rex]

120. At one time, we use to burn witches on crosses.

Progress is a good thing.

[Logical]

122. Wow, are you not understanding things change. As they should!! Some old things were wrong! nt

[Rex]

124. At one time, we use to feed Christians to the lions.

Progress is a good thing.

[Logical]

133. +100 nt

[elleng]

126. No children I knew, when I was one,

and I never was and never hit my children. (I'm 69.)

USE YOUR WORDS, parents!

An honest respect for children nourishes self-esteem, the basis for all learning. In an increasingly troubled world, the need for emotional literacy is clear, as is the need for efficacy, a positive sense of self, and a can-do spirit.

http://www.lowellschool.org/about-our-school/mission-philosophy/the-lowell-way/index.aspx

[uppityperson]

127. Satire? "It usually only takes once, then you don't ever do any thing naughty again."

Seriously? After 1 spanking, whipping, beating, you never did anything naughty again? Seriously?

[liberal_at_heart]

128. there's logic for you.

[otohara]

129. Once.....Unless You're Parent Is An Alcoholic

and gets belligerent just because...depressed, physically abused as a child - a HOT mess.

[tularetom]

130. That's total bullshit

I'm almost your age (73) and I used to get smacked once in awhile for doing something that some adult considered "bad". All it did was make me determined not to let them show it bothered me. I'd bite my lip and force myself to keep quiet, not show any reaction and especially not cry. And you know what? I outlasted them and after a few years I was bigger than they were and they just gave up. I never got into any serious trouble either.

When I hear somebody brag about how they were hit with a belt or a switch and it kept them in line I usually think, what a wimp.

[BlindTiresias]

132. Heh

[Tsiyu]

134. If children learned after one example, we could teach them quantum

physics in an afternoon.

The reason human offspring take so long to grow up is that they take a long time to have good judgment and impulse control.

A parent who whips a child to the point that the child is in shock so it cannot cry, to the point that the child's scrotum and legs are scarred and bleeding, is trying to teach good judgment and impulse control USING POOR IMPULSE CONTROL.

You cannot teach good judgment to a human being with fear. A child who is terrorized by an adult does not TRUST the judgment of the abusive adult; the child FEARS the POOR IMPULSE CONTROL of the abusive adult.

Sure, you turned out great. But maybe you'd have turned out a whole lot better had you not been abused. Not in quotation marks.

Whipping a four-year-old satisfies the impatient, sadistic tendencies of an adult. It does not prepare a child to assess risk or to make good choices.

The child who has something to live for, the child who believes in himself and who has learned to trust those he loves, this child becomes the well-adjusted child.

[AverageJoe90]

135. Response.

Last edited Sat Sep 13, 2014, 07:32 PM - Edit history (1)

I have reason to doubt that this was true for virtually everyone, truthfully. You are likely speaking from your own personal experience.....which is fine. But could one really imagine an America in which such a scenario was actually literally true everywhere? Let's just say it wouldn't be pleasant.

Let's just be glad tradionalist conservatives didn't get to see their fantasies come true or this country would be worse than 3rd world right now. Guaranteed.

[Cleita]

136. I never had children but my observations over my 75 years has been

that the brattiest and most destructive kids are the ones that are yelled at and physically punished at home. It seems that this is where the bullies come from too. But don't take my word for it. There's plenty of studies out there that confirm this.

[NaturalHigh]

139. That was my observation from when I was a teacher too.

I can happily say that neither of my kids have ever been in the slightest bit of trouble at school, and they've never been spanked or otherwise hit.

[tblue37]

137. As a home daycare provider for 18 years, I had a big part in raising 37 children

(my 2 + 35 others). They behaved extremely well for me, even though I didn't hit them or yell at them. And the ones who still live nearby where I can interact with them have become delightful adults, as are the more distant ones that I have been able to keep in touch with.

I didn't have to hit or yell at kids to teach them to behave.

[NaturalHigh]

138. That's mostly true from when I was a kid too.

It's still wrong, though. Hitting a child is wrong. Period.

[Kalidurga]

140. I am sorry you went through that.

It's not your fault. Your post disproves your point of there not being issues. I don't know if you were ever beaten to the point of needing medical attention. But, you are using the story of a child who was as a springboard to talk about how "abuse" isn't really all that bad. It is and it's never Okay. People who do this are disturbed and they pass it on to the next generation. So, we can talk about how your parents might have been abused to and understand where they are coming from, but it's still not Okay. If it was Okay and abuse produced good results we wouldn't just get a pass when we spank our kids. People who cross the line into beating their kids wouldn't be considered monsters by the majority of people. We wouldn't have laws against child abuse. Instead we would have laws that say you are required to beat your child.

[Nite Owl]

141. I'm 67

I was never hit in any way as a child, never. I was always told how much they loved me.
Guess I was either lucky for having good parents or really good!

[Heidi]

146. So-called civilized people used to own slaves, burn "witches" at the stake,

think the world was flat, marry their daughters off to the highest bidder, work children until they dropped, perform medical experiments on people without consent, and commit their daughters to mental institutions for alleged promiscuity.

Are you seriously defending whipping children with tree limbs? That you were beaten as a child is horrible. But are we supposed to be relieved that you were beaten and are claiming to have turned out okay? Because child abuse apologia indicates the opposite of being okay. I hope you can come to an understanding that just because you survived it does _not_ make it acceptable.