Tanks at the school gates? Why not says San Diego County.

[Savannahmann]

The prevalence of Military Equipment in local police departments is an issue which is rather troubling to the public of late. Especially when we saw the images out of Ferguson with Military equipment rolling around in an effort to intimidate the crowds. So the question one would ask when learning that the San Diego School Police has gotten one of those armored assault vehicles is why?

The nation gaped at the sight of a military-grade Mine-Resistant Ambush Protected vehicle trundling through Ferguson, but it turns out that was relatively restrained policing.

Relative, that is, to San Diego, where police will use a similar steel behemoth for the city’s schools.

The San Diego Unified School District Police Department has acquired its own vehicle, known as a MRAP, and expect it to be operational by October.

What in the world is going on at San Diego Schools that would require a tank? The excuse of the police, we have to save the children is asinine. First, what are you saving them from? Second, what good is a tank going to do at the parking lot of the headquarters?

Unless you have a half dozen cops hanging around the tank waiting to go, it's going to be parked with the keys locked in someones desk drawer. Now, let's say that a school shooting is happening. The person in charge decides to deploy the tank. Four or five officers rush back to the police department, let's say it's only two minutes away, to get the tank. They manage to get the keys in less than five minutes. So five minutes to get there, five more to get the tank, and then they roll towards the shooting two miles away. That is a minimum of fifteen minutes. How many kids would be left alive by the time you got back? Here's a better idea, tell the kids if they hear gunshots to run like their lives depended on it. Because their lives do depend on it. Getting away from the shooter is the only hope the kids have.

But let's consider the other excuses that the cops use. They have to have M-16 type weapons in their cars for active shooter situations, because you can't wait for the weapons to show up, you have to go in now to save lives. Well, perhaps they intend to use the armored car to evacuate children? OK, you can fit perhaps ten or twelve kids in the car, fifteen minutes after the attack happens. Let's look at School shootings in the past to see what happened. Arapahoe High School in Colorado in 2013.



It doesn't look like they're worried that those kids might get hurt, the kids are told to walk in single file line with their hands up to get searched. Perhaps that's just a bad picture to choose. Let's look at this one.



So for the safety of the children, we have to point automatic weapons at them while wearing military gear until we've had a chance to search them? It's a shame the police didn't have a tank to point a machine gun at them, that would really have helped matters.



Perhaps they're mounting a belt fed machine gun on the school tank so they don't have to do this.



Here's a better idea, keep the fucking tanks out of our schools, and get the machine guns away from the school police, and then away from the rest of the cops.

[NYC_SKP]

1. We are a police state. Best that we train kids to get used to it, the sooner the better.

I'm not kidding. While there may not be a conspiracy, there's certainly a trend.

Airports, train stations, Stop and Frisk, cameras, and the NSA.

We are toast.

[MineralMan]

2. MRAPs are NOT Tanks. APCs are NOT Tanks.

Call things what they are if you want to make a point. You don't think there's a difference between an MRAP or an armored personnel carrier and a tank? Go look them up. The police do not have tanks. They have an assortment of armored vehicles that are not tanks. Tanks have artillery guns mounted on them, on turrets. What the police have do not have such armaments.

In fact, most of the vehicles that are in police hands are primarily personnel carriers and have armor to protect the personnel being transported. They are not tanks.

Calling things what they are not makes your argument weaker, not stronger.

[snooper2]

3. don't be so quick, maybe it was a school bus tank

[MineralMan]

4. Gives new meaning to "riding the little bus."

Funny.

[tkmorris]

6. That's the first thing I noticed here as well

I thought about bringing it up, but then I realized that it really doesn't alter the argument being made in the OP at all. Deploying an MRAP to "protect" school kids is every bit as asinine as deploying an Abrams tank.

Clearly we have a different perspective on this.

[MineralMan]

7. It does alter the argument, though.

I oppose the militarization of our police forces, too. But it's so easy to dismiss arguments that don't call things what they are and exaggerate that I feel compelled to warn people that hyperbole is not a good way to argue.

The logical answer to why use armored personnel carriers, which is what MRAPs are, is that they are used to protect the officers who are coming to a hot scene. Imagine a scenario where a half-dozen militia types, armed with AR-15 type weapons have come to a school and are holding the students hostage over some point or another.

How do you get armed police into position in that circumstance? That's what armored personnel carriers are about. They'll stop a .223 round cold and protect the people inside. The idea is not to protect the police from the children at the school. It is to protect the police from the armed assholes who are at the school for some nefarious reason.

Is that a good argument? I don't really think so. But that's the argument made in favor of police departments having these vehicles. Calling them tanks doesn't make for a good argument against having them.

[tkmorris]

8. It's a terrible argument, as you seem to admit

So I chose to overlook the error in nomenclature. We aren't drafting a position paper here, it's just a forum post. Now were it MY post I would be sure to get these details correct because I care about such things, perhaps disproportionately, but I have learned to be more forgiving of others.

[MineralMan]

9. I mention such things when I see them.

It's up to the poster whether to listen to what I'm saying or not.

[morningfog]

10. To the average citizen, these are tanks.

And the point of that it is absurd and frightening is unchanged by nomenclature.

[MineralMan]

11. I consider myself an average citizen, and I know the difference.

I'm a military veteran, but I served in the USAF as a linguist, and never saw a tank during my enlistment, since the USAF isn't big on tanks, really. Still, I know the differences between a tank and an APC or MRAP. Using incorrect nomenclature gives easy entry for someone to discredit the argument. Why open that door?

It's the OP's post and decision, of course. I'm just pointing something out.

[morningfog]

15. The only person trying to discredit the information is YOU.

Whether it is to actually discredit the very valid point made or just to be a board nanny, only you know.

[Savannahmann]

12. Semantics? Seriously?

The term tank properly applied would be a tracked vehicle as you describe. However, the term tank is also used to describe heavily armored vehicles in common vernacular. For one example.



The term armored car does not do the MRAP justice. Armored trucks like Brinks use to carry money about are armored to level III which will stop .308 rounds, but probably not stop a .50 BMG. An MRAP on the other hand will stop the .50 BMG round, even an armor piercing one. The MRAP's have turrets, which a Brinks truck does not.

The MRAP's are now being submitted to replace the M-113, an armored personnel carrier. Why not, they have as much armor as the Armored Personnel Carrier.

So let's talk about the article. It is interestingly enough titled....

Tanks at the school gates? San Diego school police acquires its own MRAP

So now that we have dealt with semantics, how appropriate do you think it is to have these battlefield military grade behemoths in the hands of campus police for use in grade schools, middle schools, and of course the ever so dangerous high schools? Because they're not getting them to protect the police from Mines are they? Or are they getting them to protect the police on patrol from an ambush? No, they're getting these armored abominations to use as assault vehicles, that is all they are good for in the hands of the police. Stored in a parking lot minutes or hours away without a crew standing by ready to go means that in the role of rapid response, they're worse than useless.

This is the vehicle they've gotten. Or do you object to describing it as a vehicle too?

The vehicle has ports on the side so that individuals can fire their fully automatic assault weapons out without exposing themselves to fire. Like the Bradly in other words. It has a turret on top, so they can fire fully automatic weapons about more easily. It would take an anti-tank weapon to harm that beast, and if you have to use an anti-tank rocket or cannon to dent it, then let's be honest. It's a fucking tank. Now, unless you are going to claim that the school police in San Diego regularly face students with RPG's, the tank they've gotten seems like way too much overkill.

[MineralMan]

13. Semantics are important when making arguments.

So, yes, semantics.

[Separation]

20. Thank you

It's almost as bad as dragging up a news article from 5-10 years ago and posting it without clarifying that it's an old news article.

[Jefferson23]

5. This is just fucking nuts.

San Diego’s school police obtained the MRAP in April and have been busy modifying it at a transportation centre in the east of the city. Photograph: Chris Hondros/Getty Images

[Savannahmann]

16. Please tell me you aren't going to believe that.

OK, let's go through this. The MRAP is sitting in a parking lot, and since budget cuts have all public service cut to the bone in California, there is no team standing around during school hours waiting to deploy. The keys are in the Lieutenant's desk. An active shooter situation happens. Cops come from all over the city to take action. The Lieutenant decides they need the MRAP. The shooting is five miles from the parking lot. Cops are diverted to the parking lot to man the "rescue" vehicle.

By the time the cops man the "rescue" vehicle, the shooting situation is over. If it isn't they victims would bleed to death before the truck got to the school. At a minimum twenty minutes, more realistically while someone with authority is found, an hour.

The claim that it's going to be used for rescue is asinine. Because nobody is going to send people out of that thing to pick up a kid while the bullets are flying. First rule of rescue is don't become part of the problem. That's why Lifeguards are trained to turn the victim towards the pilings on the pier if impact becomes unavoidable. The victim is already injured, and the only way for the victim to live is if the lifeguard is alive and well. If the lifeguard gets injured, then both people die.

Don't give me that Rescue nonsense. It's worse than useless for that. The only way that is going to be useful is if it's manned during school hours with a rapid response team standing ready to go. If the school district can afford four or six guys to stand around all day waiting for a one in a million incident, they would be better off hiring four or six more teachers to actually teach the kids.

[MindPilot]

21. Oh gee I must be wrong.

Obviously you know so much more about this than the locals. I apologize for my incredible display of ignorance and stupidly.

[Savannahmann]

24. I know that's what the locals said.

I'm saying that makes exactly no sense what so ever. First, why not have the Fire Department, you know the folks with Paramedics, manage it? The police rarely provide anything including first aide to individuals who are injured or even on the threshold of death.

Look at the videos where they use force. No first aid is provided to the individual who is left to bleed. Who do the cops call, if they call anyone? The Paramedics, who work for the Fire Department. So providing the cops with lifesaving equipment, that they are almost certainly unqualified to operate, and ill disposed to actually use, is asinine. It doesn't pass the smell test.

Again, unless it's right there, on the scene, it's going to be too far away to do any good. So they pick one football game in the district on Friday Night to attend with their tank. Then they have it staffed with armor wearing cops carrying fully automatic rifles. Because they're not going to charge in with mere pistols to an active shooter situation. Then when the situation is more or less under control, they're going to use it to make sure there isn't a second shooter while ambulances are used to carry the wounded to a hospital.

Let's pretend that the thing is actually close to a school shooting event. Now, are you going to say that within this armored vehicle, they are going to put paramedics in the back, and drive into a situation where bullets are flying? No way. Not on your life. They're going to fill it with as many machine gun armed and armored police as they can. Painting rescue on it is like the token black at the GOP events. Camouflage to hide the truth.

[Glassunion]

22. Cool story bro...

You're probably right. You never know when you need to open a giant can of "Rescue".


Don't forget to mount a .50 Cal machine gun on top of your "Rescue" vehicle. You never know you never know when you may have to bring on a world of "Rescue" on someone. This one's nickname is the "Peacemaker"


No "Rescue" vehicle is complete without an armored gun turret.


I think the painter screwed up up the order of the wording...


I have yet to find an article or reference to when even one of these MRAPs or APC "Rescue" vehicles did any "Rescuing". Plenty of stories of them driving into houses, fences, over puppies (Steven Segal), serving warrants for non violent crime...

[dickthegrouch]

17. There's a much different issue not being addressed

"They have to have M-16 type weapons in their cars"

WHY????

One bullet should be more than enough to stop one shooter in the hands of a COMPETENT, TRAINED cop. How many people are going to become "collateral damage" when you have half a dozen cops spraying multiple rounds a second in all-but random directions?

A few well-trained marksmen shouldn't need M16's in an urban environment, IMHO.

Question everything about this disgusting militarization and escalation of the "need" for ever more powerful weapons.

[Glassunion]

23. That's not 100%.

The M-16 or that style of rifle ended up finding its way into normal police patrol cars after the North Hollywood shootout.

[Initech]

18. How are we not in a police state?

This is truly fucked up on so many levels. Our militaristic police force is a far bigger threat than any number of terrorist groups ever was or will be.

[KamaAina]

19. Pity nadinbrzezinski left us.

This is right up her alley.

[KamaAina]

26. Turns out she broke this last month

http://reportingsandiego.com/2014/08/27/how-militarized-are-san-diego-police-forces/

The list of what San Diego County has received through this program can be found at the Detroit Free Press.

The database at the site has data for all agencies in the nation, and is fully searchable. The San Diego list includes things you might expect in a DoD transfer. It includes 155 rifles and some pistols. Given the origin of the LESO program, those make perfect sense. The program was meant to better arm police to face heavily armed criminals during the height of the War on Drugs in the 1990s.

Another item in the list is an MRAP. There is only one in the list. Other items in the list include sights for the rifles, and cleaning kits. The list also includes first aid kits, tents, winter survival clothing (which given the winter in the Cuyamacas can be snowy makes sense). Then there is a single coffee maker, and a few digital cameras, as well as refrigerators and tools.

The list is not extravagant, especially when compared to other areas of the country that have gone on a virtual shopping spree to get equipment that otherwise they could not afford. It also should be noted that all weapons and vehicles are technically on loan from DoD, and in case of a major emergency DoD can take them back. Moreover, they need to be put into use within a year. In theory they have to be accounted for if transferred to another law enforcement agency and they cannot be sold.

[Savannahmann]

27. We knew cops were getting this stuff

We didn't know it was the School Police.

[n2doc]

25. Safety First!

Never know when those kids will listen to too much Pink Floyd

[BrotherIvan]

28. Because citizens have militarized

The police can use that as an excuse to keep raising the stakes. The only way to solve this is gun control: disarm.