Nothing good will come of this.

[Puzzledtraveller]

Last edited Thu Sep 11, 2014, 11:53 AM - Edit history (1)

Once again the roar of jets will replace all other sound.

Once again children will be ripped apart.

on edit, decided to share this, inspired by the debate taking place on DU.

"Nothing Good Will Come of This"

Burn out the engines, soulless afterglow
homage paid to The Reaper
reaping what we sow

Black out the sunlight
turning day into the night
under cover of dark
making darkness bright

What did we find now?
that before, was amiss
what is it this time?
Nothing good will come of this

Drown out the screaming
blood is black beneath the moon
keep telling me I'm dreaming
the end, for others
comes too soon

What can you say now?
that wasn't said before
how will this be different?
is it just a game of Risk?
Keep telling us we're winning
Nothing good will come of this

[randome]

1. They are already.

Have you seen how ISIS treats non-believers?

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/foreigners/2014/09/don_t_watch_isis_s_murder_of_steven_sotloff_honor_him_by_remembering_the.html

“Systematic hunting of members of ethnic and religious groups.” Women raped and sold. Young boys executed. Girls enslaved for sexual abuse. Children recruited as suicide bombers. More than 1 million refugees, half of them kids.

But let's not get our hands dirty because we're too shell-shocked from Bush, Junior still.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."
Leonard Cohen, Anthem (1992)[/center][/font][hr]

[Puzzledtraveller]

2. This is what Isis wants.

[randome]

4. Who gives a fuck what they want?

See my revised post and tell me it's not worth the effort to stop ISIS.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A 90% chance of rain means the same as a 10% chance:
It might rain and it might not.[/center][/font][hr]

[Puzzledtraveller]

5. Tell me how we will make it better?

[randome]

9. You want my reassurance? My promise? Sorry, I don't have any.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[Puzzledtraveller]

23. That is rather flimsy, being that you are so sure this is the right move.

Do you have children?

[randome]

26. I have 2 17-y/o daughters. And I'm sure of nothing.

[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

8. Why should you care what they want?

Because you're actually helping them when you drum the drums of war in the US. Just like Bush, you make it into a 'war on Islam' by the United States, and help them recruit even more terrorists.

We need the regional powers to take them on, not for it to be turned into a 'Christianity vs Islam' war, which is indeed exactly what the would-be Caliphate wants.

Do they need to be stopped? Yes. Do we need to be the face of the opposite side? No.

[randome]

11. No one else has our resources.

From current reports, ISIS' invincibility has been vastly over-rated. I truly doubt this will be some long, drawn-out campaign. Take them out. If we leave it to someone else, they may actually have time to become more powerful.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

15. If their invincibility is vastly over-rated, then why would you need our resources?

But I'm not against us supporting other countries in the region in the fight. Give them our intel, help them with money as needed. Just don't let them proclaim the US is at war with them or Islam.

[randome]

18. That would be preferable, I agree.

But I'm no intelligence expert and I doubt Obama hasn't taken all possibilities into consideration. He is not Bush, Junior and we need to get over our shell-shocked attitude from 9/11.

This is not the same as power-mad GOPers invading countries on a whim.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[cilla4progress]

53. This is what I believe

I don't get where Obama is coming from, and this is the 1st time I'm truly, deeply disappointed with Obama. Well, and also the public option.

I could see being in a back up role of some sort. But the leader in this? Why? Why? I thought Isis wasn't a threat to our "homeland" (yechh hate that word). Aren't we only creating more hate and enemies by going into a sovereign nation uninvited (Syria) to confront our enemies there? This does not make sense to me. And I feel it is very, very wrong.

[cali]

12. same goes for Boko Haram.

and have you seen who are "moderate" partners are in Syria?

<snip>

t’s also strange that we are unquestionably calling the Free Syrian Army (FSA) the “moderate” opposition and putting our faith in their abilities, despite many actual experts claiming they’re far from moderate and far from a cohesive army. As George Washington University’s Marc Lynch wrote in the Washington Post recently, “The FSA was always more fiction than reality, with a structure on paper masking the reality of highly localized and fragmented fighting groups on the ground.” The New York Times reported two weeks ago that FSA has a penchant for beheading its enemy captives as well, and now the family of Steven Sotloff, the courageous journalist who was barbarically beheaded by Isis, says that someone from the “moderate” opposition sold their son to Isis before he was killed.

<snip>

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/10/american-fear-mongering-war-again-isis

[bullwinkle428]

20. Someone on MSNBC (forgive me for not recalling) was talking about

the FSA last night, and said they've committed at least six beheadings that have been accounted for to this point.

[randome]

32. 'Strange' as in completely incompetent? Crazy, even?

I doubt the State Department is full of frothing-at-the-mouth idiots writhing on the floor and pitching darts at a list of next steps to take.

It's time to get over our PTSD from Bush, Junior and realize that Obama is carefully weighing the pros and cons before committing military troops to action.

That doesn't mean trust everything he says without question. But I can't think of any other President I'd rather have making these decisions.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[sabrina 1]

30. Any links to photos of the Children of Iraq we blew to smithereens? Check out Dahr Jamail's photo

journal if you can stand it.

And the children who are victims of our Drone strikes, I believe there are records being kept now by Humanitarian Organizations. And the children of Afghanistan who were murdered and the women who were raped, some as young as 14, gang raped actually. I understand, it's brutal and hard to read and since it's ongoing even harder.

I know, it's 'different' this time! And it's better if WE kill them than Al Queda/Isis/Saddam/Assad.

I wonder who is going to pay for this again?

Put it this way, when you have a record of torture and rape and war crimes, you're not the most likely nation to stop war crimes.

But it is profitable, the War Mongers must need more money. So there is that!

[randome]

39. Our record of torture is a very short one compared to those we are trying to stop.

The U.S. is neither pure nor blameless for what happens in the world. But ISIS is a group that needs to be stopped.

I couldn't care less about who pays for this.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[sabrina 1]

48. Yes, yes, as I said, when we do it, it doesn't hurt as much because we are noble. Even though we

helped create ISIS, btw, when did you first hear that name? Was it a month ago, two, three years ago? What happened to Al Queda, did they change their name, or did WE change it for them?

It's odd, isn't it, that with all our 'surveillance' we didn't notice this ISIS group until just recently?? Did they spring out of nowhere and where are they getting all those professional videographers and producers and costumes and flags, not to mention the WEAPONS?

Could you provide a little history on this most powerful threat to the world, because airc, they just sprang up a few weeks ago with all those professionally produced videos and the scary costumes.

Some people are saying they are the creation of some of our allies, but we would never allow our allies to create such a monstrous organization. So that can't be true. Still some of them say they were 'recruited' and given nice uniforms etc and would be paid for their 'work'. A few even claimed to know who was making the offers.

There is a sense of deja vu about all of this, as many people are saying.

[Chathamization]

64. Perhaps you should look into the history of torture and executions by the groups we’re helping

conquer the Sunni Arab lands.

[Feral Child]

49. Crusader.

I'm sorry, I really don't wish to insult, but war, especially a massive air war, isn't going to resolve the problems in the ME. It can only cause more.

This country has it's own problems to address before we restart droning brown kids for democracy.

[randome]

50. I doubt it will be massive. ISIS's capabilities have probably been overblown.

And it's probably best to take them out now instead of waiting to see if they become stronger.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

[HERVEPA]

3. Yeh, isolationist is always good. Just ignore the people ISIS is destroying physically and mentally

[Puzzledtraveller]

6. and how will we make that better?

You don't think they will use innocents as shields?

[cali]

13. what about the people that Boko Haram is destroying just as barbarically?

and just about as many of them.

[sabrina 1]

33. Who came to the aid of the over one million people we brutally killed in Iraq? If only someone

could have stopped it, or the children dying under our drone strikes, who is going to come to their aid? Or do you think that if WE kill, torture, rape and pillage it isn't as bad as when someone else does it? I'm trying to understand why anyone thinks that bombing countries with some of the most powerful WMDs in history is 'humanitarian'.

[Feral Child]

51. Constant unrelenting war is better?

Don't you think we need to clean our own house before we throw more millions of munitions blindly and indiscriminately into the ME?

When our own militarized police stop wantonly killing our own brown citizens, we might then be able to take a "moral" stance against Radical Islam.

[GeorgeGist]

67. Like Wall St.

Oh wait, their white collar terrorists.

[frazzled]

7. I've got news for you

Children are already being ripped apart ... by those in the region (ISIL, Assad). Where have you been?

It's clear that you don't really care about children, do you. That's not your point.

[Puzzledtraveller]

10. So we can add to the body count.

But don't worry, you won't have to see little bodies on TV. Isis will use anyone they can get their hands on as shields.

[MohRokTah]

17. Yep, thousands of ISIL bodies added to that count

That's a good thing.

[Puzzledtraveller]

21. That is blood thirst no matter who's blood it is.

If that is truly what you believe.

[MohRokTah]

22. No, that is reality in a world with no unicorns riding rainbows.

I accept the reality of the world in which I find myself.

Too many do not.

[Puzzledtraveller]

24. I served in Iraq

USAF 1991-1997 in first gulf war. I know reality.

[MohRokTah]

27. My military service was a decade before yours. eom

[Puzzledtraveller]

29. That's awesome

You and I already served.

[morningfog]

44. I thought it was paranoid silliness to suggest we would be bombing Syria?

Now, not doing so is unicorns riding rainbows?

[frazzled]

52. Please don't pretend this is about "the children"

That's cheap.

There are always two choices: don't act, and children will die; or act, and some children may die. It seems everyone's suggestion is that we should just avert our eyes, as we did in Bosnia while children were raped and murdered en masse—often in front of their parents, who were forced to watch—and where among the 8000 marched into the woods murdered in cold blood at Srebrenica were significant numbers of young boys.

We should be proud we stayed out of that one, because if we had involved ourselves, some children undoubtedly would have died. Oops, thousands of children died anyway. (We could talk about Rwanda here, but let's not stray; we didn't see it, so it didn't happen.)

I'm not pretending that this is a fully humanitarian mission rather than a geo-political one. I'm not pretending that I don't think this mission isn't fraught with peril of escalating into something dangerous. (Or it could rather end up like the air-strike mission we finally conducted in Kosovo, which was actually pretty successful.) I'm not pretending that there aren't other pockets of deep concern in the world that we haven't or can't do anything about, either because it's strategically unwise or because there is simply no will.

But one thing I'll never do is to pretend like my positions on any of these things are based on "the children." I care about children too much to use them in this way for cheap political argument's sake.

[sabrina 1]

37. And by drone in Pakistan and in Yemen. Who is going to come to THEIR aid? Have you petitioned

our government to STOP blowing those poor children to death?

[cilla4progress]

55. Your post should be flagged, claiming someone here doesn't care about children!

It's better if WE kill them as collateral damage, than Assad, ISIL?

[Puzzledtraveller]

56. Give me a break.

I asked him a question. It is important. Why?. Because my attitude used to be different then I had my first child earlier this year and can't believe I ever once supported ANY kind of war. I wanted to know if perhaps his reasoning was like mine once was.

[cilla4progress]

59. This was to frazzled, puzzled, not you.

Sorry for the misunderstanding!

[Puzzledtraveller]

61. and mine too.

Must be too many "zz's" Didn't mean to be so sharp, here and the other reply. I just turned in my two week notice at my work I have been at 5 years because I was written up for going to my baby girls doctor appointment so I have been a little fired up lately.

[cilla4progress]

63. No problem.

I agree with your opening post and the opinions you express here. For those who were actually there in the ME, fighting to protect us here at home and for stability - I really honor and appreciate your sacrifices, and also believe you know and speak the TRUTH far more than us here at home living in comfort!

Thanks, and hugs. That totally sucks about your job. I hope you can get unemployment benefits, because that sounds like a totally illegitimate situation!

[GeorgeGist]

69. Children were ripped apart in Shock and Awe.

Where were you?

[Octafish]

14. Harold Pinter understood what you are talking about, Puzzledtraveller....

[Puzzledtraveller]

19. Thank you Octafish!

[valerief]

54. Excellent. Thanks.

Vast tapestry of lies.
Full spectrum dominance.
That's the U.S.

[xiamiam]

65. thank you octafish for posting this..ive been so upset over this today

..this..voice of truth and intelligence calmed me down..the truth is always good enough, its the phony baloney suck up bs that makes me crazy

[MohRokTah]

16. I hope thousands of ISIS fighters are killed.

Absolutely the best move Obama could have made.

And the ISIS people are pretty frickin's stupid since they've been posting videos of themselves in their training camps and headquarter areas in Syria.

Could end up killing tens of thousands of them, and that's a good thing.

[morningfog]

45. LOL, "paranoid silliness?"

[raven mad]

25. My ex (and he isn't my ex because of this)

always said "nuke 'em to glass".

That, my dear one, included the entire middle east, whereat this shit comes from.

America is complicit in this "shit"

Where do we place the blame?

[Puzzledtraveller]

28. We do perpetuate the cycle that is for certain.

Isis, and any radical faction that kills innocents are all repulsive. It is odd, with the lessons so close in recent memory and with the ink of the history books not even. If I could wave a magic wand and remove these scum I would. The bombs will not do that. They will allow them to gain even more support, perhaps even turning other who would be put to death by them to their cause. They will undoubtedly use human shields.

[raven mad]

66. Exactly. And what price revenge?

Ask a veteran - the price isn't worth it.

[snooper2]

31. hopefully the fundies won't hear the jets before a bomb hits their positions

Maybe the Kurds will be able to rest a little easy again without fucking assholes telling them to "convert" and cover their women or die-

[Puzzledtraveller]

34. Oh it's the Kurds

The ones touted often by Bush co as needing our protection.

[snooper2]

36. Yes, and normal people in Syria, and in Iraq, I guess you never watch the VICE videos I post

[sabrina 1]

43. How many 'normal' people are left in Iraq? I think the population was approx. 23-4 million when we

went to save THEM from death and destruction. We killed over a million, tortured who knows how many, maimed untold more numbers, and over FOUR MILLION fled the country to escape the violence we perpetrated on them to go live in Refugee Camps in Jordan and Syria, many still there, although now that we have helped stir up trouble in Syria, those Iraqi refugees are now under attack AGAIN.

So that is about one fifth of their population, gone. Some democracy we created no?

And then as if that wasn't enough, our puppet, Maliki, continued to kill and imprison and torture, see Chelsea Manning for info on how those 'US Trained Police' treated 'normal Iraqis' if they dared to express a negative thought about Maliki.

Should we go to some of the other places in the world where there are people being brutalized and murdered every day also? Do we REALLY care about people, or just when they are near our Oil somewhere?

Because I have a list of places that are screaming for help and have been for a long time. IF you really do want to help people who are in dire need of help.

[snooper2]

47. I protested against war in Iraq in Dallas and in Crawford before it started-

This is different, these asshole fundies are out of control and aren't fucking around-


I have a better solution but nobody wants to do it-

(#1 Take all the fundies in Israel, Palestine, France, the US, all fundies of all stripes)
(#2 Stick them in a largely un-inhabited place in the middle east)
(#3 Give them equal weapons)
(#4 Let them kill each other, winner gets the "holy" patch of useless desert so they can pray for the rest of their lives)



Good plan right!

[valerief]

35. Very rich people will get richer. That's the most important thing in the world.

People give up life and limb for that. Of course, they convince themselves it's for a nobler cause, but deep down they know it's to make rich people richer--and nothing--more but go to war for the wealthy anyway. We're no different than the dog who tries to please its master. It's been bred to do just that.

[Puzzledtraveller]

38. War is Peace.

[woo me with science]

40. Blood for profit. Again.

Time to repost this by William Pitt: Refresher Course on PNAC
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025518146

[Puzzledtraveller]

41. Well, blood is also blue is it not?

The blood thirst displayed by many here is peculiar, blood must taste better when it's blue rather than red, if you take my meaning.

[cilla4progress]

57. I don't get your meaning ...

Could you please elaborate?

[Puzzledtraveller]

58. I didn't ask you.

[cilla4progress]

60. Oky-doky then

my bad. I thought this was an open thread...

[Zorra]

42. The PNAC plan is still working perfectly. nt

[sabrina 1]

46. Well it was working well until they got to Syria. There has been a bit of delay there, but I guess

that will all be fixed now. And then on to, who's next on the list? We got Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, we're working on Syria so I imagine we are getting ready to go 'save' the people of the last three on their list.

[sub.theory]

62. Clearly better to abandon the children to ISIS

Yes, clearly the children are much better off with ISIS. Abandoning them to either be beheaded, raped, or sold into slavery is the better option than taking action to save them. On the other side, it's much better that children are indoctrinated in endless hatred of all the infidels and apostates, training in warfare, and photographed holding severed heads.

But, it's the US that's in the wrong here for trying to help.

[GeorgeGist]

68. It will make things worse.

[GeorgeGist]

70. Lot of bloodthirst in America and DU.

Nothing good with come of it.

[Puzzledtraveller]

71. Some are unabashedly blood thirsty too.

I do wonder and I often get shit for it but I'm usually right, would they all be like this if there were a (R) in the WH? I doubt it, I really do. I believe that party loyalty and an inability to accept that we can be wrong from time to time is the greatest motivator here, it boils down to ego an the ego will protect itself from ever having to admit being wrong.