What if...Zimmerman pleads guilty to manslaughter or a lesser charge?

[MrBig]

Obviously with the limelight this case has, it is very, very unlikely that this case will be pleaded out. But how would people react if, say, the prosecutor offered Zimmerman manslaughter a couple years in prison? Any different if it was more than just a couple years?

[NYC_SKP]

1. He should get what John McNeil in Georgia got for shooting a home intruder:

Life in prison.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=551171

And John should be released, time served.

~

[cthulu2016]

2. If the prosecutor offered such a plea

then I would be fairly confident that she considered it the best thing to do given the state of the evidence.

I have no reason to assume bad motives. She seems like a hard-ass type who likes convictions.

[MrBig]

4. I agree n/t

[Taverner]

3. If they can prove there was pre-meditation, it can't be manslaughter

[MrBig]

5. If they could prove pre-meditation...

They would have tried for murder one.

I'm assuming that by going with murder two, they know they can't show pre-meditation (insofar as he went out that night with the plan and intent of killing Trayvon).

[DevonRex]

8. They were strangers to each other and nothing

on the 911 calls between Zimmerman and the 911 operator indicated that Zimmerman said he was planning to kill Martin. So no premeditation.

[WhoIsNumberNone]

13. I've been listening to Mike Papantonio on this for a while now

He says premeditation only takes a minute or two. They don't have to know each other. Murder 1 would mean a grand jury, and a chance for him to walk without being charged. That's the biggest reason for Murder 2.

[vaberella]

17. And murder 2 just needs malicious intent and it's a go.

Apparently it looks like she can prove that though.

[ProfessorGAC]

22. I Don't Think That's Quite Right

Premeditation doesn't require that you have a specific victim in mind. Berkowitz wasn't stalking people he knew. He was still charged with murder one in multiple counts. He was still going out there with intention to "kill someone".

Don't know if the evidence exists to hit Zimmerman with that, so we agree completely there. But, he didn't have to go out looking to kill Trayvon. Just needed to have premeditation to kill. Probably nearly impossible to prove, though.

[pokerfan]

24. true but it should also be noted that they don't need to prove premeditation for murder 2 either

at least according to Florida law. I was unclear myself (dammit, I'm an engineer, not an attorney) so I resubscribed to the FindLaw blog and found this:

Florida's jury instructions (which are based on the Florida statute) spell out three elements that prosecutors must prove to establish second degree murder beyond a reasonable doubt:

• The victim is deceased,
  
• The victim's death was caused by the defendant's criminal act, and
  
• There was an unlawful killing of the victim "by an act imminently dangerous to another and demonstrating a depraved mind without regard for human life."

The last element -- an "imminently dangerous" act that shows a "depraved mind" -- is further defined by Florida's jury instructions. Three elements must be present:

• A "person of ordinary judgment" would know the act, or series of acts, "is reasonably certain to kill or do serious bodily injury to another";
  
• The act is "done from ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent"; and
  
• The act is "of such a nature that the act itself indicates an indifference to human life."

Note that prosecutors do not have to prove the defendant intended to cause death, Florida's jury instructions state.

Compare that to a charge of first degree murder, which generally involves premeditation. Premeditation would mean the culprit planned and intentionally carried out the killing. (In Florida, only a grand jury can bring a first degree murder charge, according to prosecutors. Corey decided not to use a grand jury in Zimmerman's case.)

http://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2012/04/george-zimmerman-arrested-for-2nd-degree-murder.html

[HooptieWagon]

6. A plea would not be unusual

Although Im sure the prosecutor has the evidence to justify the charge, you never can predict with 100% certainty what a jury will decide. If a plea deal means GZ serves a minimum of 20 years, lifetime parole, and cant profit from the crime, then I for one would be satisfied. But Trayvons family might deserve and desire more.

[DevonRex]

7. Most cases get plea bargained. It's a fact of life.

The vast majority get plea bargained. It means nothing about the strength of the case or the politics of the case or anything but the cost that it takes to try cases and the overcrowded dockets in courtrooms today.

There is no way in hell this prosecutor will go for a plea bargain for manslaughter +2 years. No way. She has the goods for murder 2 based on Zimmerman stalking him with a weapon, Martin being unarmed, physical evidence, plus the 911 tapes with the voice of Martin pleading for his life, THEN the shot being fired.

[MrBig]

9. I agree

I just wonder what the reaction would be from people. I don't anticipate a plea bargain only because of the high profile nature of this case, though I must say this prosecutor seems to be the type that, if a plea bargain is the best avenue, then she'll do it.

Frankly, I think a plea deal with a significant jail sentence would be great for all parties involved. The family deserves justice and it would allow them the time they need to heal without the stress and anguish of a full blown trial.

[crunch60]

11. There should be No plea deal in this case..IMHO. Here is a 17 year old boy, murdered for no just

cause. Even if Zimmerman gets 30 years, he is still alive and will have a chance to have a family and some kind of life. He has deprived Trayvon of his life, his family of their son, horrible unjust shooting, so many lives affected by this tragedy.

[JDPriestly]

15. If I were one of Trayvon's parents, I would want a careful, exact, detailed presentation

of the facts of the case. I would want to hear an apology from Zimmerman. But I have to warn that apologies are virtually never a result. In lieu of an apology, I would want the world to know what happened. And considering all the terrible things that have been said about Trayvon, I would want a trial with evidence that would show that Trayvon was not at fault and had done nothing to cause suspicion on the night of the murder -- assuming that is the case (I don't know what the evidence is about what Trayvon did or did not do). If I were the parents of Trayvon, I would want to see my son's honor and reputation restored. A lot of the media has pounced on all the typical silly teenaged stuff about Trayvon.

[pennylane100]

10. As I understand it, manslaughter applies to killings that were not premeditated.

If the facts that have been made public are true, Zimmerman was told by law enforcement to stop following Martin on at least two occasions. What were his intentions when he disregarded this request. Why was he carrying a gun when as a neighborhood watch person, his role was only to call the police.

The fact is that he had no legal right to approach or detain people. Therefore why would he need to carry a gun if he did not intend to break the law and confront the person he was following. When someone is killed while a crime is being committed, all the people involved in the crime can be charged with murder. Zimmerman may have crossed that line when he continued to stalk Martin after he was told not to. If his stalking, based on the fact that he was using racial profiling is proven, I do not see how he is not guilty of murder.

[shadowrider]

16. A point of correction

He was not told by law enforcement to stop following. He was told by a dispatcher, (NOT a sworn officer), "We don't need you to do that".

He was carrying a gun because he was on his way to Target (perfectly legal) when he saw Martin.

The rest of your post I generally agree with.

[Boabab]

20. "We don't need you to do that" means don't do it. Common sense.

And your point about him carrying a gun because of where he was supposedly going is ludicrous. The only reason that GZ dared to confront Trayvon is because he was holding a gun.

Had he jumped out of his car and left the gun inside, then we'd be talking about a very different subject today.

[shadowrider]

25. Whatever

[hack89]

21. Second degree muder does not require premediation

that's why he was not charged with first degree murder - premeditation would be almost impossible to prove in a courtroom.

[Bucky]

12. I tend to trust court outcomes.

I mean, two years is ridiculously light. But I don't have all the facts and the judge will. Except, obviously, for Trayvon's testimony. But Zimmerman is not striking me as that bright a bulb. I suspect he's exaggerating his "attack" by the unarmed teenager. Properly monitored, which I trust this case will be, the court will certainly see the killer's accounting of facts challenged as much as possible. We will all die never knowing what truly happened in full.

[WhoIsNumberNone]

14. I look at it this way

If Zimmerman pleas out and actually does any time it's going to be a very rough stay for him. Even if this weren't such a high-profile case, he strikes me as being too soft for prison. Even if it's only a year or two, there's no guarantee he'll make it out alive. At the very least he's likely to be somebody's bitch.

[LAGC]

18. Zimmerman has too big of an ego to accept any sort of deal.

This one's going all the way to trial, trust me.

[Solomon]

19. The family does have a say in the matter and they

won't accept a 2yr. deal. Stop dreaming.

[Boabab]

23. What is this fruitless speculation about plea deals?

If such a plea involves GZ spending the rest of his life behind bars for murdering Trayvon, then I'm all for it.

Otherwise, the Martin family would never agree to accept a plea deal.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. Family does not get a choice when it comes to plea deals or sentencing

[Pachamama]

26. Not sure where you are coming up with this 2 year penalty...Florida law clearly spells out sentence

...guidelines on manslaughter and the range is something like 9 1/2 - 15 years.

The State Attorney could have purposely shot high (with the necessary evidence required to ask for the charge) in order to a) make sure he gets no bail; b) to allow negotiation room;

I am sure Trayvon's parents want justice. We all do. But the reality is that jury trials dont always have the outcome we think is fair and the stress of a long trial can take its toll on the family. There is also the factor to keep in mind that a good defense attorneys job is to defend his client, not to get justice. The defense could and will do what it can to defend Zimmerman and that could involve unpleasant things that could do everything from embaressing the family to inciting racial tensions that are already high.

All these factors will be taken into consideration. The family may agree and tell the state that theybare fine with a plea of manslaughter and the max sentence of 15 yrs. Frankly, they are probably as surprised as anyone that the charges were 2nd degree and not manslaughter. Just until April 10th, his family may have wondered if George Zimmerman would ever be arrested. They will have to consider the choice of whether they are satisfied with 15 years in prison or that afyer a lengthy trial Zimmerman walks free. Could happen. Juries are not perfect. The prosecution has the burden of beyond a doubt. The defense just needs to create a reasonable doubt. Just turn on Fox news. Trust me, there is easily doubt put in peoples minds.

I think there is a possibility of a plea for manslaughter. There are also the possibilities of federal charges comimg. And I am sure that there will be a civil trial. Even Judge Zimmerman, George's Dad must see the writing on the wall. Will be interesting what follows. But I hope that it isnt driven by various parties with agendas of their own. I refer to "outside" interests of all sides....this needs to be a decision by these two families and their team of lawyers and state prosecutors....not everyone else.

[cali]

28. well, Trayvon's mother is OK with it and her opinion counts far more than mine

Zimmerman to face judge; Trayvon's mom says 'shooting was accident'
Trayvon's mother, Sybrina Fulton, said on the Today Show she wants an apology from George Zimmerman.

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Zimmerman to face judge; Trayvon's mom says 'shooting was accident'
By Arelis R. Hernández, Orlando Sentinel

7:18 a.m. CDT, April 12, 2012
George Zimmerman woke up in a Seminole County jail cell this morning as the mother of Trayvon Martin, the teen he killed, revealed on national television that she thinks the shooting was an accident.

<snip>

Asked what she would like to ask to Zimmerman, Trayvon's mother, Sybrina Fulton, told The Today Show that she wants an apology from him.

"I believe it was an accident. I believe it just got out of control and he couldn't turn the clock back," Fulton said, revealing her opinion on what happened the night her 17-year-old son was shot to death. "I would ask him, did he know that that was a minor, that that was a teenager and that he did not have a weapon."

Fulton said even if Zimmerman is found not guilty, the arrest achieves the goal of their campaign to raise awareness and bring him to justice.

<snip>

http://www.ky3.com/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-charged-jail-20120412,0,5308517.story