The religious police are here. For real, and in uniform. And I am not in Saudi Arabia

[DFW]

I'm in Germany:
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/scharia-polizei-merkel-verlangt-hartes-vorgehen-gegen-salafisten-a-990489.html

Wuppertal is right down the road from here.

That some German politicians think that no drastic action is necessary is disconcerting to me. Anything like this in a secular western nation is worthy of immediate drastic action. All we need is for some fanatic so-called "Christian" group to point to this in Germany to justify something similar in our (supposedly) secular USA.

One German politician saw no need for legal action. I see a pressing need for some kind of action. Shariah Police, my ass.

[Scootaloo]

1. Seems to read that the german politicians against "drastic action" hold that position...

because they feel it can be handled by standard legal institutions and processes. I.e., arresting people who harass and intimidate, taking them to trial, etc.

Wacky notions for some Americans, I understand.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. I'm puzzled, my dear DFW...

Why are there religious police there, in Germany? Are they an offshoot of some church, or are they governmental?

We sure don't need anything like that here.

[JDPriestly]

3. Here you go. Rough translation of the first paragraph.

Berlin -- Angela Merkel requested a decisive action against the self-appointed (self-named) "Sharia-Police." "The government has a monopoly on force, the CDU leader said on television channel Sat1. "No one else is authorized to fill the roll of the police.

Berlin - Bundeskanzlerin Angela Merkel hat ein entschiedenes Vorgehen gegen die selbsternannte "Scharia-Polizei" verlangt. "Es gibt ein Gewaltmonopol des Staats", sagte die CDU-Vorsitzende dem Fernsehsender Sat1. "Niemand anderes ist befugt, sich in die Rolle der Polizei hineinzuschleichen."

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/scharia-polizei-merkel-verlangt-hartes-vorgehen-gegen-salafisten-a-990489.html

Merkel is right, of course.

[DFW]

7. Definitely NOT governmental!

Unlike the USA, Germany does not tacitly condone this kind of thing.

They just felt emboldened enough to do this and think Germany's freedom of speech and freedom of religion laws allow them the right to "police" their own communities. This is already far advanced in parts of France and England. In Germany, there has been a problem with "honor killings" for years. This is the name given to killings, usually of girls in the family, for reason of "honor," which is always the version perceived by male members of the family. Girls "dishonor" their families by grave offenses like going out with German boys or not wearing a veil in public, etc. You know, really heinous crimes.

What's new is that male members of these communities now feel no compunction to hide their behavior, but think they're free to enforce radical religious norms (theirs, of course) on strangers in public. In Germany, of course, the second the Germans say this is unacceptable, the religious radicals accuse them of being intolerant, xenophobic Nazis.

[Quantess]

11. Which explains...

the steadily increasing popularity of right wing nationalists in just about every european country.

[DFW]

19. It does indeed

Neonazis can't exist if their argument, "you need us to protect you" is always answered with "no, we don't. Get lost."

The moment the answer changes to, "well, if no one else will help," they hear a symphony.

[muriel_volestrangler]

4. Articles in English:

http://www.dw.de/locals-concerned-as-sharia-police-patrol-streets-of-german-city/a-17904887
http://www.dw.de/germany-wont-tolerate-sharia-police/a-17906086
http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2014/09/05/Police-arrest-Sharia-Police-in-Wuppertal-Germany/2811409937280/
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/germany-condemns-sharia-police-patrolling-streets-wuppertal-city-110840551.html
http://www.thelocal.de/20140905/ruhr-police-throw-book-at-shariah-vigilantes

Since they wrote 'police' on their backs, not 'polizei', I presume they got hold of some jackets from someone in the UK. Sorry about that.

'Drastic' seems a strange word to choose form what you want. It's a group of a few idiots who want to poke their noses into other people's lives. "No need for legal action" seems to mean "no need for new laws". I agree with that. You can stop people from harassment in the street with existing laws, surely?

[DFW]

9. "can" is correct--in theory

However, Germany is still, even now, sensitive to accusations of being Nazi-like in their intolerance. Foreign groups, both organized crime and religious extremists are very good at exploiting this. The second any action is taken against them, they scream "Nazis!" and hope the authorities will back off. The problem is that they usually do. Organized crime, especially when it involves only theft, plus "honor" killings for "religious" reasons are usually treated with kid gloves here, and the second anyone screams "Nazi!" the tendency of the legal system here is to throw up its hands and say, "oops, sorry if I offended you." This is a dangerous attitude, because it only encourages the tiny groups of real German neo-Nazis who can claim, with some justification, that the public needs to be better protected.

Therefore, while the Germans obviously "can" stop people from harassment in the street, the reality is, for the most part, that they don't. If they did, this wouldn't be on the front pages of the newspapers here.

[reorg]

14. Der Spiegel also reports that Nazis were the first to "take action"

Neonazis have agitated for days in their blogs against the Islamists. "Die Rechte" (the Right) has founded the "Stadtschutz (Town Security) Wuppertal". This spare time militia, clad in red shirts and equipped with two-way-radios, is supposed to provide "more security, law and order", it says on the Internet.

Seit Tagen machen Neonazis in einschlägigen Blogs Stimmung gegen die Islamisten. Inzwischen hat "Die Rechte" den "Stadtschutz Wuppertal" gegründet. Diese Feierabendmiliz solle nun, ausgerüstet mit roten Hemden und Funkgeräten, "für mehr Sicherheit, Recht und Ordnung sorgen", heißt es im Internet.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/scharia-polizei-in-wuppertal-salafist-sven-lau-und-seine-neue-taktik-a-990191.html

[DFW]

18. That is exactly the danger Germany wants to avoid

No sane German wants to give Neonazis justification to exist. Inaction in the face of outside intimidation is just the thing Neonazis live to hear. It gives the few of them that are around a reason to do something other than shave their heads, hang around, listen to hate music, get drunk and watch soccer on TV.

[leftynyc]

5. Outrageous

Isn't putting "police" on your clothes - trying to pass as a police officer - against the law there?

[DFW]

6. They did it in English, so no one can accuse them of of passing for "Polizei"

Not that it makes them any more legitimate

[reorg]

8. What kind of "drastic action" do you propose? n/t

[DFW]

10. Keep in mind that while I live here, I am not a German citizen.

However, I would arrest anyone seen involved in such activity, expel them if not German citizens, revoke their citizenship if they have acquired it (and then expel them), and throw the book at them with full jail time if they were born as German citizens.

Having bands of self-appointed "police" roving around, enforcing whatever "laws" they feel like enforcing, is not the sort of thing that was meant when the Allies removed the Nazi regime and tried to replace it with a parliamentary democracy. The Weimarer Republik tolerated bands of SA roaming around beating up Jews, too. That didn't turn out so well. The Germans don't want this kind of thing imposed on their territory any more than we want it on ours. Berlin never tried to impose strip joints in Riyadh, after all.

"Tolerance for diversity" must end when the so-called "diversity" means imposing arbitrary social norms on people against their will. If people of legal age want to drink alcohol, go dancing or walk in public without wearing a scarf or a veil, German law says they have every right to do so. Self-appointed "Shariah Police" have no right to prohibit ANYONE from doing that--not in Germany, anyway. Their communities need to be made to understand that in no uncertain terms.

[reorg]

12. If they did something illegal, they should be dealt with according to the law

but your remark about the (SPD) politician:

"One German politician saw no need for legal action."

seemed to imply that you did.

If these youths just voiced their opinions and invited visitors of a game hall into their new mosque (as shown in the Spiegel video), they should not be regarded any different than, say, the Salvation Army who also show up in certain areas and locations advising passers-by not to engage in sinful acts.



Since 90 years the battlesome Christians have their headquarters in Talstraße, right in the middle of St. Pauli among sex shops and strip joints.

[Douglas Carpenter]

13. they do the same in the seedier districts of Amsterdam - but I guess they are a religious army not

"the religious police."

[reorg]

15. Both are acting on behalf of their god, I suppose

The "police" patrol say in their video "we are not talking about issuing tickets for 20 or 50 Euros, we are talking about eternal bliss!" Sounds very similar to what I have heard from the Salvation Army.

[DFW]

17. No one acts on behalf of any god

They act on their beliefs and/or their neuroses.

No one has received direct instructions from any celestial being on how to behave toward anyone else.

If some young thug dons a vest saying "Shariah Police" to go yell at young people trying to enter a dance hall, he did it because some other thug told him what a good idea it was, gave him the vest and convinced him to agree. No deity told him to do that.

[reorg]

21. No, but they believe it is their holy duty

Those who they accost are probably capable of dealing with the nuisance themselves. If anything is needed it is probably sound education and information on the ideology of such groups and what they are supporting where they hold sway over countries and governments.

[DFW]

22. Incorrect supposition

Teenage girls are NOT capable of standing up to five male thugs, and in any case their action constitutes something far greater than a "nuisance." An offensive poster is a nuisance. Five thugs willing to beat the crap out of you for noncompliance is not a nuisance. It is a menace.

Everyone in Germany knows what the thugs are supporting. Shariah law is not a mystery. It is just unwelcome here. Plenty of immigrants in Germany from Muslim countries are refugees fleeing Shariah law back home. We do not need education on their ideology. We need them to go away. These are not peaceful protesters in Hyde Park on Sunday. They are self-appointed "police" who are most definitely NOT enforcing any laws or traditions prevalent in Germany. They have no right, legal or moral, to impose their will on anyone in Germany.

[DFW]

16. Harassment and intimidation are not "expressing opinions"

Screaming at women in front of family planning clinics in the USA is not "expressing an opinion" either.

Besides, religious extremists in Germany have a history of not stopping at verbal abuse, and German society has a history of not acting to protect those being harassed. This is nourishment for right wing movements to come out of the woodwork saying "you need us to protect you." It can't be allowed to come to that--again.

[reorg]

20. Yes, but there are laws in place to deal with this

I remember an incident years ago, when a German anti-abortion activists held a regular vigil in front of an abortion clinic. He was told by the authorities to stay away from the immediate vicinity of the clinic, so he handed out his pamphlets on the other side of the block. Americans (probably mostly right-wingers) complained: how typical of Germany, they restrict the free movement of somebody who simply wants to voice his opinion and even threatened him with arrest!