Evaluating President Obama on tough decisions

[sheshe2]

A critique we Obamabots often get thrown at us is that we never disagree with the President. The assumption that usually follows is that we revere the man over his positions. I've thought long and hard about that one because it is rare that I outright disagree with something President Obama has done. But the reason for that goes MUCH deeper than the idea that I am a "blind supporter."

In the past both POTUS and FLOTUS have pointed out that problems with simple (unambiguous) solutions rarely reach the president's desk. If there is an obvious answer, it is handled long before it gets to him. Therefore, anyone in that office spends their time on complex issues that don't lend themselves to simple right/wrong options.

snip

Once President Obama has made a decision, all of those "unintended consequences" become the focus of the debate. On the other hand, not many people spend time identifying the unintended consequences of the options he rejected.

You can chose any number of scenarios to see how this plays out. One example would be the call he made early on in his presidency to "look forward instead of back" by not opening up a prosecutorial investigation into Bush/Cheney complicity in torture. Lots of people on the left assume that the unintended consequence is that future administrations will feel free to torture. But they rarely think about what the consequences of prosecuting an immediate predecessor would have been as the country careened towards another Great Depression and was engaged in two wars. Either way the President went, his critics would have had a field day - with some justification on both sides.

Read More: http://immasmartypants.blogspot.com/2014/09/evaluating-president-obama-on-tough.html

[madokie]

1. I agree wholeheartedly

thank you

[sheshe2]

13. Thank you madokie!

[Doctor_J]

2. Very generic

substitute Bush for Obama and it would read identically.

it is rare that I outright disagree with something President Obama has done. But the reason for that goes MUCH deeper than the idea that I am a "blind supporter."

Huh?

A critique we Obamabots often get thrown at us is that we never disagree with the President. ... it is rare that I outright disagree with something President Obama has done.

they rarely think about what the consequences of prosecuting an immediate predecessor would have been as the country careened towards another Great Depression and was engaged in two wars

False. That's pretty much all we think about. The fan club rarely thinks about the consequences of caving in to republicans time after time.

The assumption that usually follows is that we revere the man over his positions

False. You revere him over his personality and your own lack of principles on things like torture, drilling, holding white collar criminals accountable, education policy, and so forth. You agree with every decision because of your reverence.

This would probably be better if the writer was not a 3rd grader.

[sheshe2]

15. K

Got it!

Bush=Obama! LOL~ no wonder you thought a third grader wrote this ... My Pet Goat.





[Michael Moore] As the attack took place, Mr. Bush was on his way to an elementary school in Florida.

[Michael Moore] When informed of the first plane hitting the World Trade Center where terrorists had struck just eight years prior, Mr. Bush decided to go ahead with his photo opportunity.

[Michael Moore] When the second plane hit the tower his chief of staff entered the classroom and told Mr. Bush, "The nation is under attack."

[Michael Moore] Not knowing what to do, with no one telling him what to do, and no Secret Service rushing in to take him to safety, Mr. Bush just sat there and continued to read My Pet Goat with the children.

http://www.american-buddha.com/bookworldgov.attach.htm

Good for you!!!!!! Go Doc! Diss this President. Keep on keeping on.

And...

False. You revere him over his personality and your own lack of principles on things like torture, drilling, holding white collar criminals accountable, education policy, and so forth. You agree with every decision because of your reverence.

My own lack of principles? Excuse me! Are you calling me out! My own lack of principles! WTF!? Where have I posted that!?

[OnyxCollie]

3. "[N]ot many people spend time identifying the unintended consequences of the options he rejected."

I've spent a lot of time identifying the unintended(?) consequences of ignoring the Fourth Amendment when it comes to domestic spying, something the author of this tripe is unlikely to have done when thinking "long and hard" about positions Obama has taken.

[Cha]

4. Thank you, she, for smartypants' analysis on these

extraordinarily complex issues.

From your link..

"This is why its so important that we have a president who carefully listens to opposing views and then works their way through the options thoughtfully rather than simply go with his "gut" (as our previous president so often did). Doing that means taking a realistic look at what the unintended consequences are likely to be and choosing a course that limits them as much as possible. It also requires that the president is clear about a North Star so that both the action and its consequences can be weighed against an overarching imperative."



Good Luck to us All in the Midterms!

[sheshe2]

5. Thanks Cha...

at least the President is of sound mind and thinks things through. He is the one that, as you show, is the one doing his job. Members of Congress, meh not so much. They made a decision in 2008 and have stuck to it. Mitch to paraphrase...We will do anything in our power to make Obama a one term President...then they followed through again in 2012. The hate America group, they want power or they will destroy us.

From the link

I recognize that we have to live in the world as it is rather than as we want it to be.

We vote Tuesday Cha. Primaries for Governor, go Martha Coakley and Ed Markey is up again! We can do this. I know we can.

It's time to send the little bullies in Congress home in 2014 and let the adults make the decisions for what is right for America.

[Thinkingabout]

6. Lots have something to say his decisions do not match their expectations, wasn't

Hard enough and on and on but when he makes a decision he has to look past all the mud and rain to get a clear picture and make the proper decision. He is also a Constitution expert and though some would like for him to make decisions to their liking he holds for the Constitution.

[freshwest]

7. Despite prostrating myself to Akhenaten daily, I still don't get all I want.

Poor, poor, pitiful me!

[sheshe2]

8. You need some accompaniment with that violin.

freshwest

[freshwest]

9. That is the one! The live version:

[sheshe2]

19. :)

[1StrongBlackMan]

10. Another well thought out, well ...

presented OP. Thanks!

Amazing how so many are convinced that they are smarter, more capable and more competent than this President, when few have ever, faced as many complex issues, in their lives, as he does in a single week.

[sheshe2]

12. I decided...

to ignore the noise on the thread and concentrate on the positive responses. I will never convince the Obama naysayers of anything. So why try? Sure, I could have posted this in the BOG, yet why should I? It is their problem, not mine. This is a democratic board that was founded on the premise of building a strong coalition of Democrats. Sadly Du has lost it's way, 1SBM.

Well, this President does indeed have more smarts, logic and an infinite amount of patience when dealing with the complexities. I am so happy to have an adult in the room, the children can return to their sandbox and pout.

I got a hide the other night. I mentioned watermelons, I believe you know what I mean.

[MFrohike]

11. That really doesn't make sense

Disproving a counterfactual is always tricky, but this author doesn't even try to do it. She claims that critics of the president regarding prosecution of the W admin haven't imagined the potential problems if he'd made such a move, but she completely fails to list any of this parade of horribles. If you're going to make a case that he made the best possible decision under the circumstances, you have to actually make the argument. Hell, when Voltaire mocked Leibniz in Candide, he was actually mocking actual arguments advanced by Leibniz. Voltaire didn't just say, "Well, he's wrong" and make vague assertions about a decision-making process he had not personally witnessed not had first-hand knowledge in seeing.

This is preaching to the choir in the worst way. Sure, it sounds reasoned. Well, it sounds reasoned as long as you go with your gut concerning its merits, which definitely fits the definition of irony. The "North Star" assertion is maybe the worst part of the whole piece, except possibly the last paragraph. It's a faith-based assertion. In a post that pretends to embrace logic to advance its arguments, this is just ridiculous. No evidence of such a "North Star" is given. It's simply assumed to be true.

"So in the end, the reason I almost always agree with President Obama is not simply because I trust the man. Its because I share his North Star and trust his process. I recognize that we have to live in the world as it is rather than as we want it to be."

That's the last paragraph. Read the first paragraph and then read the last paragraph. The writer tells us that it's not that she trusts the man, but that she trusts his "North Star" and his process. Of course, she has simply made assumptions about his process and his "North Star" but she treats them as givens. Without ever proving those points, she falls back on trust in the particular person without realizing it. She ends up proving the very point, at least for her, that she sought to disprove in the beginning.



Note: I'm only critiquing the post. I didn't make specific political or policy mentions because I didn't see the value in confusing the issue of her terrible reasoning versus discussing the others.

[rhett o rick]

14. Yes but what I don't agree with are his decisions to keep the same Republicans that George Bush

had. He is continuing the same NSA/CIA spy programs that were put together during the Bush administration. He kept the same economic advisers that allowed the bank bailout. He has done nothing to punish the Wall Street corruption.

As far as the war crimes, without prosecutions we will never be the same. If Bush and Cheney are in the same club as the President and therefor President Obama can't prosecute them, at least prosecute the CIA bastards and doctors that actually did the torturing. How can we live with ourselves if we just pretend it never happened?

What I find interesting is that some here won't commit themselves on issues like fracking, the XL Pipeline, and the TPP. And we had a very good post yesterday that pointed out that the "recovery" didn't apply to the 99%. I notice that the President Obama fans, never post in those threads. Apparently have nothing to say about fracking, the XL Pipeline, the TPP or the "recovery". And never post in threads about Wall Street corruption or the Patriot Act.

I am not an Obama hater as some here want to rationalize. I supported him strongly in 2007. I wanted change. But I didn't find change in Tim Geitner, Lawrence Summers, Ben Bernanke, William M. Daley, Jeff Immelt, Dave Cote, Jeb Bush, Robert Gates, Gen Stanley McChrystal, Jacob Lew, Jeremiah Norton, Gen Petraeus, John Brennen, Chuck Hegal, Michael Taylor, James Comey, James R. Clapper, Robert Mueller, Gen Alexander, Michele Leonhart (DEA), Lois Lerner (IRS), Rahm Emanuel and Penny Pritzker.

[sheshe2]

17. Why don't some post on the threads about Tpp and XL etc?

Most likely it is because they are hair on fire threads bashing the President. Same ones about SS and ACA. So were all the threads stating he's caving he is going to cave. Obama=Bush! He sucks. Honestly Rhett why the hell would those that the support the President wish to participate in that?

The reverse could be said. There is a strange silence here on Ferguson. Why is that? A young AA, his name was Michael, was once again shot to death, the reason seems to be that he was black while walking. Where is that outrage? My heart breaks for what this country has done and continues to do to our black youth.

The police response was so frigging out of control yet there is silence here. Absolute silence. That is far more telling to me than the fact that we will not comment on a hair on fire post about TPP and XL.

[rhett o rick]

21. Seems to me that those that are avid Pres Obama supporter won't comment on

issues like the TPP, fracking, the XL Pipeline, because they aren't sure which way the President is leaning or they are really opposed to the Presidents stand but don't want to speak up. IMO Democrats are critical by definition. That's what separates us from the "march-in-step" Republicans. I don't like the Patriot Act. I didn't like it during the Bush Admin and I don't like it now. But some here didn't like it when Bush was president but are ok with it now. The same goes for a load of issues. I don't think agreeing with the President 110% of the time is big D Democratic.

I am not sure what your point is about Ferguson. The Left has been clamoring for action. So far we've seen no results other than the promise to "investigate". I want to see the results of the investigation. Like the investigation of Trayvon Martin's death or the investigation of the NSA. Promises of investigations don't solve problems, the results are what is important.

[sheshe2]

22. Only a promise to investigate?

http://upload.democraticunderground.com/10025489550

Eric Holder Opens Broad Probe Into Ferguson Police

Attorney General Eric Holder on Thursday announced a sweeping federal civil rights investigation of the police department of Ferguson, Missouri, citing a “deep mistrust” between officers and the people who live there.

Holder said the investigation would determine whether officers in Ferguson had “engaged in a pattern or practice of violations of the U.S. Constitution or federal law.”

He said that the investigation would analyze police use of force, traffic stops, searches and the treatment of detainees. It will go beyond the shooting death of an unarmed black teenager, Michael Brown, by a white officer, Darren Wilson, on Aug. 9.

snip

The Justice Department’s Civil Rights Division said it had opened more than 20 similar investigations into police departments across the country over the past five years. It said it is enforcing 14 agreements to “reform law enforcement practices at agencies large and small.”

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-shooting/eric-holder-opens-broad-probe-ferguson-police-n195886

[rhett o rick]

24. "The Justice Department’s Civil Rights Division said it had opened more than 20 similar

investigations into police departments across the country over the past five years. It said it is enforcing 14 agreements to “reform law enforcement practices at agencies large and small.” "

This is very good information supplied by the DoJ. I would be interested in the specifics of the agreements. Did people get fired or moved or retrained? Have they commented on the effectiveness of their enforcement? Has there been any progress in reducing the brutality of police aimed at the Black Community? It obviously didn't prevent this tragedy which seems to be typical of what is currently happening around the country.

I recognize that this is a huge problem but I am interested in results and not rhetoric.

[rhett o rick]

27. Looks to me like the Black lawyers and judges group of the National Bar Assoc

aren't satisfied with the DoJ's actions and plan on taking their own actions.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025505128

[Major Hogwash]

16. So true.

And any decision President Obama would have made concerning their complicity in torture would have resulted in even more Republicans getting put in to Congress in 2010!!

As it is now, we can overcome that difference.

[sheshe2]

18. We can overcome that difference.

We need to vote in 2014. Many say they won't cause they want only a pure progressive. What is that? We are a huge party with different ideas and ideals, we are a party of people, all the people.

Me. I vote for all of us. I want justice, Major. I know you want it too.

[Major Hogwash]

20. We shall overcome.

There's never been any doubt about that, sheshe2.

[rhett o rick]

26. I hear you saying that Democrats need to compromise their principles to get elected. How's

that been working for us for the last 30 years. The middle class has been devastated. Studies show that the American public has no influence on their government. And the latest, the "recovery" isn't helping the 99%.

Maybe it's time Democratic representatives stood up for Democratic principles.

[Major Hogwash]

29. Really? Because that is not what I said at all.

What I said was:

And any decision President Obama would have made concerning their complicity in torture would have resulted in even more Republicans getting put in to Congress in 2010!!

See that word "any"?
I didn't take a position concerning prosecuting Bush, Cheney, et al on the issue of torture.

[rhett o rick]

30. So if "any decision President Obama would have made concerning their complicity in torture would hav

have resulted in even more Republicans getting put in to Congress in 2010!!", then why didn't he prosecute the bastards?

[William769]

23. FUCK the haters! Thats all I will say.

[sheshe2]

25. That covers it William!

[loyalsister]

28. Unintended consequences aren't always bad

It seems to me that ACA may bring us closer to single payer. We know for a fact that republican governors are giving in to the pressure to expand medicaid. Positive results of medicaid expansion will serve as evidence and support the best arguments for a single payer system.
Unintended or intended- who knows? But, for all the legitimate criticism and naysaying regarding Obamacare, why have people resisted considering the possibility of positive potential?