A whole new meaning to "highway robbery"

[marym625]

Billions taken by police and split with the DOJ without conviction, warrant or even charges.

We are not just becoming a police state, we've been one for quite awhile.

"Stop and seize

Aggressive police take hundreds of millions of dollars from motorists not charged with crimes"


http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/investigative/2014/09/06/stop-and-seize/?hpid=z2&Post+generic=%3Ftid%3Dsm_twitter_washingtonpost

[orpupilofnature57]

1. + 1000 !!!

[marym625]

45. Thanks! n/t

[Logical]

2. Thanks for this! This is mostly an unknown issue. Radley balko covers....

It quite a bit in his blog.

[marym625]

4. Thank you

I will check that out!

[NYC_SKP]

3. Between this and Bloomberg's Stop and Frisk program in NYC, we clearly are a police state.

Small wonder Mayor Bloomberg is on his current campaign MAIG or whatever it's been renamed.

Also, your Fourth Amendment rights are limited within 100 miles of the US border (and coastline):



https://www.aclu.org/immigrants-rights/constitution-100-mile-border-zone

Hang on to your rights, we've already seen them eroded away, don't give another inch.

Classic Keith Olbermann:

[marym625]

5. I am sadder each day with what we have become

I am saddened that under a President elected twice with hope that we not only continue down this horrible path but go deeper into it.

I am saddened that we as Democrats and progressives can't even agree that the whistle being blown on unlawful behavior by our government is a good thing.

I am saddened that while our President stands and vilifies the arrests of journalists, he seeks to jail them.

I'm just sad.


I miss Keith Olbermann. Thanks for that

[marym625]

62. Meant to thank you for comment and map too. THANKS!

[NYC_SKP]

63. My pleasure, thank you for your OP!

[marym625]

66. NP. And now I have a new favorite "smilie"

Hey! I don't have that? Hmm. I'll have to stick with

[elehhhhna]

6. no heairng, no charges, the ultimate taxation without representation

or codified theft, of you prefer that term

[marym625]

67. dig your signature line! eom

[JHB]

7. Why tax your own people when you can just take from out-of-town nobodies?

That's a big part of this. Not all of it -- not by any means -- but a big part nonetheless.

[lpbk2713]

8. They own the ball, the bat, the glove, the field, the bleachers ...

we just play there. Cause any trouble and yer outta the game.

[marym625]

10. I think I want to go ice skating

[Hemmingway]

9. I have little sympathy for people who shrink wrap 100k cash and hide in their gas tanks

[marym625]

11. uhm. What?

And that has what to do with seizures without warrant, reasonable cause, charges, etc?

[Hemmingway]

12. It seems reasonable to me to seize that money.

People who obtain their currency legally don't need to go through extraordinary measures to smuggle it from point A to B.

[marym625]

13. Did you read the article?

Or listen to report?

Even if this was about illegal trafficking of money, there have been laws put into place that are now ignored. You're okay with that?

[Logical]

19. 36 posts, I would basically ignore that poster. nt

[marym625]

32. Good idea

Last edited Sun Sep 7, 2014, 02:42 PM - Edit history (1)

There weren't that many when I responded

OH! His! Yeah, and he ran away without every answering if he's okay with search and seizure without cause or warrant.

[JHB]

17. THEY WERE NOT SMUGGLING

Not the money, not anything else.

Ordinary citizens, on legitimate business, had their money seized by police. And then they have to prove in court that the money was not illegally obtained: even though no charges were filed, a crime is assumed and guilt is presumed until proven otherwise.

Are you ok with that?

[Hemmingway]

20. Yes.

If an ordinary citizen says that the reason they have bulk currency hidden in their vehicle is for lawful purposes, I tend to doubt the veracity of their story.

[tkmorris]

21. You can doubt all you want to

However seizing that money should require proving that it was illegally obtained should it not?

[Hemmingway]

23. No.

It should be illegal to smuggle large amounts of currency. What honorable intentions does a person transporting a hundred grand in a hidden compartment in their vehicle, from Chicago to the southern border, really have?

This is muchado about nothing.

[tkmorris]

28. By your definition tyhe cash in your wallet is "smuggled money"

You keep mentioning "a hundred grand in a hidden compartment" for some reason, but that isn't what we are talking about. We are talking about people carrying money for completely mundane reasons, such as buying a used car, purchasing a small restaurant, or any number of other reasons. They get pulled over and the police take their money, even if they are not charged with any crime.

So I ask again. Are you REALLY OK with that?

[JHB]

29. Once again, this is not about smuggling, no hidden compartments are involved

Why do you keep coming back to that? Who was discussing shrink-wrapped 100Ks in hidden compartments? And why are you confusing it with what is under discussion here?

One is illegal, and there is a legitimate interest in preventing it.
The other cases ARE legal, have legitimate purpose, yet legally are treated exactly like the illicit case.

In fact you have yet to indicate you've read anything on this subject, either the article liked in the OP, or any of the other ones that have come out about this problem for the last, oh, twenty years.

[Hemmingway]

31. They're a drop in the bucket. That's why we have our court system.

[rbrnmw]

127. what are you talking about?

Did you read the OP or the article linked? It seems like you either didn't or you didn't quite comprehend it. These are people who have the money for legitimate reasons and it was seized but they weren't charged with a crime.

[Booster]

30. So, let me get this straight. By your standards, if anyone of us finds

a large amount of currency in someone's car we should assume it's being smuggled & take it for ourselves. Why is that different from a cop in Vegas seizing a guy's $50,000 casino winnings & telling him "it would be best if you treated this like it never happened". How in the Hell is that not illegal? It's robbery & extortion all rolled up in one. Or a church worker who was taking $60,000 to the bank after a church fundraiser - money seized & no charges filed against the church worker. That's really ok with you. I think this is not the place for you - I think you meant to go to Freeperville.

[Hemmingway]

33. Wouldn't the Vegas winnings be easily proven?

Surely a casino has records. A receipt exists for that large of a payout.

[tkmorris]

43. And you'll spend thousands proving that in court

And it'll take a year or more to do, all with no recompense to you for the time or trouble.

[Hemmingway]

48. I won't, no. I don't smuggle cash.

[WinkyDink]

59. The LAW says that people need not prove their innocence; the courts must prove guilt. DUHHHHHHHHHHH.

[marym625]

68. Amen to that WinkyDink!

[Hemmingway]

73. Civil forfeiture and criminal charges are completely different.

[JHB]

123. And THAT is the issue here

That the standards for civil forfeiture are too loose, which has let it become a tool for some communities to generate revenue by seizing cash, cars, ordinary jewellery, and other possessions that bear no resemblance to the "shrink wrap(ped) 100k cash and hid(den) in their gas tanks" that you have equated all of these cases with.

Criminal law says the state has to prove a crime was committed.

Civil forfeiture allows the state to simply take property without any charges or higher standard of evidence that it was used in or resulted from a crime. And requires months of court proceedings to even have a chance of getting it back -- assuming one has the resources to engage in protracted court proceedings against a local or state government that may be several several hundred miles from your home.


http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/08/12/taken

David Guillory started his research by driving his cluttered red Volkswagen Jetta to the Shelby County courthouse, in Center, Texas, where he examined the ledgers that listed the past two years of the county’s legal cases. He wanted to see “any case styled ‘The State of Texas versus’ anything that sounds like a piece of property.” The clerk began hauling out one bulging accordion file after another.

“The eye-opening event was pulling those files,” Guillory told me. One of the first cases that caught his attention was titled State of Texas vs. One Gold Crucifix. The police had confiscated a simple gold cross that a woman wore around her neck after pulling her over for a minor traffic violation. No contraband was reported, no criminal charges were filed, and no traffic ticket was issued. That’s how it went in dozens more cases involving cash, cars, and jewelry. A number of files contained slips of paper of a sort he’d never seen before. These were roadside property waivers, improvised by the district attorney, which threatened criminal charges unless drivers agreed to hand over valuables.

Guillory eventually found the deal threatening to take Jennifer Boatright and Ron Henderson’s children unless the couple signed away their money to Shelby County. “It’s like they were memorializing the fact that they were abdicating their responsibility to fight crime,” Guillory said. “If you believe children are in sufficient danger that they should be removed from their parents—don’t trade that for money!” Usually, police and prosecutors are careful about how they broker such exchanges. But Shelby County officials were so brazen about their swap-meet approach to law enforcement, he says, “they put it in the damn document!”

Patterns began to emerge. Nearly all the targets had been pulled over for routine traffic stops. Many drove rental cars and came from out of state. None appeared to have been issued tickets. And the targets were disproportionately black or Latino. A finding of discrimination could bring judicial scrutiny. “It was a highway-piracy operation,” Guillory said, and, he thought, material for a class-action lawsuit.

[marym625]

34. That's the same kind of

"I have nothing to hide so OK to spy on everyone" logic. If you can call that logic

Cheers!

[GP6971]

39. Tell that to the innocent victims who couldn't afford lawyers

to get their money back.

[Hemmingway]

41. Lol really?

So they can afford to carry enough bulk cash to warrant seizure but can't afford an attorney? Makes sense.

[marym625]

47. so you are fine with

Search and seizures without cause or warrant?

[Hemmingway]

49. Smuggling money is cause.

[marym625]

51. You didn't answer my question

[Hemmingway]

52. Why should people be allowed to smuggle money without recourse?

[marym625]

54. You didn't answer my question

[marym625]

57. You still have not answered my question

[Hemmingway]

72. That's what I thought

[marym625]

74. so, basically you're here to try and cause trouble

and refuse to have an actual discussion on the merits of posts. Nice. Enjoy. Good luck with that.

[Hemmingway]

75. Pot, meet kettle.

[marym625]

76. I'm happy to discuss

You have not said anything that addresses the OP. Nor have you responded to the questions of many as to what you believe about it.

So it's more like kettle, meet peach pie

[Hemmingway]

77. Sure I have. Not my fault that burying your head in the sand is more appealing than a debate.

[marym625]

78. where?

Please refer me to one of your posts that addresses search and seizure without reasonable cause, warrant or charges.

[marym625]

93. Excuse me, that does NOT at all in anyway address the OP

Can't believe I have to spoon feed you what you have said.

Make some sense, respond to the questions and the OP or just go away.

[WinkyDink]

60. Why should police be allowed to determine crime and punishment?

[morningfog]

84. Dude, this is so fucking simple. Possession =/= smuggling.

For fuck's sake, play somewhere else.

[tkmorris]

65. Having cash on your person is not "smuggling"

Such a simple concept...

[20score]

53. I hope nobody alerts on your posts. (Way too common on this site, in my opinion.)

There are the perpetually pissed off, and lots of others that alert and will hide almost anything. In your case there may be justification, because what you're advocating is reprehensible and is justifying an all out police state. Should make any thoughtful and/or decent person ill. But I hope they don't. For two reasons.

First, even terrible ideas should be heard and debated. Second, because you're actually making such a bad case for your side, it will inform the people who are ignorant of this subject just how awful things are.

Keep up the bad work!

[marym625]

55. hee hee

I was just on a jury and those hmmm. I wonder what this will be. But it was something else

[JHB]

22. What do you regard as "hidden"?

What level of verification do you think is appropriate for -- and let's stress this point -- people going about legitimate business so that they can get their property back in a timely manner?

These questions are relevant to the topic, particularly as to whether the practice is prudent caution, or crosses the line into abuse of power.

[marym625]

40. so now people must keep all

Funds in a bank?

You do understand this is democratic underground, right?

[WinkyDink]

58. Newsflash: YOUR PERSONAL OPINIONS do not comprise nor do they supersede the U.S. Constitution.

[orpupilofnature57]

71. How about off-shore ?

[morningfog]

81. What bullshit. Are you a cop?

[Hemmingway]

82. That was rude.

[morningfog]

83. Your whole position is rude. Are you a cop?

Or is there something else wrong with you?

[Hemmingway]

85. I'm not gullible.

I guess that's what's wrong with me.

But continue supporting the criminal element, the smugglers transporting millions of dollars in hidden compartments headed south toward the border. I'm sure the cartels appreciate your noble, albeit shortsighted, gullibility.

[morningfog]

88. Possesion is not smuggling.

It is not illegal to possess money.

It is not evidence of criminal activity.

Are you a cop?

[Hemmingway]

91. Smuggling money is evidence of smuggling.

What percentage of these seizures do you think really rob grandma on her way from the craft fair to the bank to deposit her earnings from selling her knitting?

When the police have to use a drug sniffing dog and a back saw to find your cash, I'm not going to by the BS story that it's legit.

[morningfog]

94. Smuggling money is not defined as possession.

Your statement "Smuggling money is evidence of smuggling." is circular and makes no sense.

You must be a cop, or aren't posting in good faith. No citizen would defend this in good faith.

[morningfog]

98. Obviously, you didn't read the article and you are here only to stir shit.

The "easy remedy" through the courts costs a sizable amount to undertake.

You have still failed to articulate how simply rightfully possessing money is evidence of an illegal act. Because it isn't. That is asinine.

You have yet to answer whether you are a cop, too.

[Hemmingway]

99. If someone can afford to smuggle a huge amount of cash, they can afford an attorney.

[morningfog]

105. There is no evidence of smuggling.

If you had read the article, you would not be ignorant to that. You also wouldn't continue to be ignorant to the fact that the money is all of the person's money often.

But, clearly your ignorance is willful, or an act.

[Hemmingway]

109. An article about a small handful of seizures cherry picked to make a point.

[morningfog]

110. You're floundering, lol.

You aren't very good at this. What was your last DU screen name?

[Hemmingway]

111. I'm just having fun.

[morningfog]

112. In other words, flaming and trolling?

[Hemmingway]

113. No.

Challenging folks to look outside their narrow world view.

[morningfog]

114. That is fucking hilarious!

What was your last DU screen name?

[Hemmingway]

115. Finally we agree!

It is quite amusing

[morningfog]

117. What was your previous DU name, again?

[Hemmingway]

118. Such a curious question.

[morningfog]

119. And your answer?

[Hemmingway]

120. Perplexed amusement.

[Booster]

126. Google "cops seizing property at traffic stops" and be enlightened. It could happen to you.

[Politicalboi]

121. Must be a cop

I can't believe what I'm reading. Only a cop would say it's alright to steal from the public.

[marym625]

125. even with the fact the

OP and multiple questions regarding search and seizure without reasonable cause or warrant has yet to be answered by this person, the fact he believes seizure programs are OK because only a handful of innocents would have problems is so unbelievable to me.

Let's spy on all US citizens! I'm sure only a handful truly have nothing to hide.

The guy has stated on other posts he's only here for a short time because no one agrees with him. (Sorry, that may not be exact words but I am sure he thought it do it's okay for me to accuse.)

[marym625]

122. The criminal element

= the government

[uppityperson]

86. So was sending an alert saying a long time Duer was stupid. Nice that 7-0 leave lost you alert privi

[Hemmingway]

87. Swing and a miss.

[uppityperson]

89. Did you send that alert?

[Hemmingway]

92. Hahahaha

[uppityperson]

100. Is it cool there, like the rest of the north central area is?

[Hemmingway]

102. North central?

[uppityperson]

104. north central states, like Illinois

[Hemmingway]

107. Nope it's about perfect here

[CreekDog]

26. The bigger concern is that he uses this point of view in the course of his duties

[JHB]

15. Fine, but that's not who is being affected by these seizures

It's about people who had cash and other items right there with them in the car, had it for ordinary, legitimate reasons (to buy a used car, to buy a family restaurant, purchasing trips for their plant nursery business, etc.) and had it seized by police.

[Liberal_in_LA]

38. driving while black orbrown with cash

[Logical]

18. LOL, 36 posts. Enjoy your short stay! nt

[Hemmingway]

25. I will.

[20score]

24. Exactly! Some people are involved in illegal activities! Since that is true, nothing should be

off limits to law enforcement. Stealing, illegal stops, forgoing any restraints that partially identify us as a country (due process, etc.) -- are all justified. I always thought courts were an unnecessary part of our system. I mean, if they they didn't want their money stolen, they shouldn't have had money, right? Same thing for their cars. They knew the risks when they decided to drive! (Thanks to Airplane! for that one.)

Goddamn I hate reactionary thought! BTW, reactionary thought really is an oxymoron. Reactionaries by definition, don't think.

Some may not get this comparison, others will. During the buildup to the Iraq War, I didn't know what upset me more; the actual war, or the reactionaries and their arguments that got us there. (Okay, it was the war, but we wouldn't have had that war if people knew how to think.)

Pretending that because laws are broken, illegal actives by law enforcement are justified is reactionary and dangerous in a semi-free society. Take five or ten minutes, think critically and then apologize for that remark. (I hope.)

[marym625]

42. EXACTLY!

[whereisjustice]

14. third world police state, we need to start taking power away from our idiot cops

[marym625]

56. Very seriously we do

Money out of politics is going to be the only way. Call your senators and make sure they vote for constitutional amendment tomorrow

www.commoncause.org

[barbtries]

16. i've been a victim of this shit

4 cars taken by police and me too poor to bail them out. i can't even read the article because it is too frustrating.

[marym625]

36. so sorry

Have you contacted the ACLU?

[barbtries]

106. oh, no.

well not for this. it's all in the past now and i'm doing well. but thank you!

[20score]

27. Important! Of course Fox News has been constantly on this story for years!

Oh wait, this story was preempted by two black men standing on some stairs. Our media, always taking the risks to inform people of what's crucial in the their lives - and taking on power to do it!

[marym625]

35. LOL!

Good one!

[Liberal_in_LA]

37. paragraph from article

Among Black Asphalt’s features is a section called BOLO, or “be on the lookout,” where police who join the network can post tips and hunches. In April, Aurora, Colo., police Officer James Waselkow pulled over a white Ford pickup for tinted windows. Waselkow said he thought the driver, a Mexican national, was suspicious in part because he wore a University of Wyoming cap.

“He had no idea where he was going, what hotel he was staying in or who with,” Waselkow wrote. The officer searched the vehicle with the driver’s consent but found no contraband. But he was still suspicious, so he posted the driver’s license plate on Black Asphalt. “Released so someone else can locate the contraband,” he wrote. “Happy hunting!”

[marym625]

44. makes me physically ill

How does anyone try to justify this?

[Liberal_in_LA]

64. me too. so much i cant read the whole article

[marym625]

69. you should at least watch the report then

It's worth it. I promise

[Liberal_in_LA]

70. ok. thanks

[Dawson Leery]

46. Police unions and advocacy groups aggressively fight to keep this program.

[marym625]

50. Well why wouldn't they?

If we know about billions stolen, I have to believe there's billions more taken home by the cops

[marym625]

61. Just a few more recent articles on the subject of the US being a police state

For your reading pleasure. Well, pleasure if you don't get really angry at this stuff

http://www.globalresearch.ca/u-s-police-state-crushing-dissent-with-militarized-cops-protecting-the-government-from-people/5396278

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/09/07/377924/us-basically-police-state-imam-musa/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathan-weiler/american-police-states_b_5679782.html

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/09/01/is-america-a-police-state-for-many-yes.html

[freedom fighter jh]

80. The U.S. Constitution says

i amendment 5:

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, . . . nor shall . . . be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

(http://constitutionus.com)

[marym625]

90. You would think that would matter

but, as we know, money matters more.

[freedom fighter jh]

108. Yes, I think that's the problem.

BTW, is 6/25 your birthday? It's mine.

[marym625]

116. YES!

Great date for freedom fighters!

[freedom fighter jh]

124. Yes. And a power of 5. For whatever that's worth.

back.

[G_j]

95. 61,998 cash seizures made on highways and elsewhere since 9/11 without search warrants or indictment

... organized crime

[marym625]

97. Exactly!

Wonder if we can get the DoJ under the RICO act too. Only sort of joking there. Really fed up with all this

[G_j]

101. RICO

certainl6y could apply, but....

[marym625]

103. I know, never happen

but I can dream, can't I?