Ayn Rand had it Bass Ackwards. The Rich are NOT the "makers". The rich are the TAKERS!

[MohRokTah]

Stay with me here.

The drivers of a healthy economy are those who drive demand and consumer spending.

There are two groups that fall into this category on the whole, a strong middle class and the government.

The rich leach off the efforts of both the middle class and th government.

The rich take away from the system that you and I contribute to.

WE ARE THE MAKERS!

THE RICH BASTARDS ARE TAKERS, NOTHING MORE THAN LEACHES ON SOCIETY!

Ayn Rand had it ASS BACKWARDS!

[ret5hd]

1. Been sayin' it for years. (nt)

[MohRokTah]

12. The greatest fear the uber rich hold is that the masses will learn that they are, in fact, leaches.

And what do we do when we find a leach attached?

WE REMOVE THE LEACH!

[Louisiana1976]

15. Right on!

[arcane1]

2. Amen. "Labor is superior to capital" to paraphrase Lincoln n/t

[orpupilofnature57]

3. Ayn Rand was the Rush Limbaugh of the Sartre Age .

http://www.objectivistliving.com/forums/?showtopic=524

[sakabatou]

4. Well of course!

[Fred Drum]

5. Disproving ayn rand ain't really the goal

it shouldn't even be the starting point

unfortunately, its the end to many discussions

[Voice for Peace]

6. About taking personal responsibility: how come the Koches never learned to clean up after themselves

[orpupilofnature57]

7. Rand was a sycophant, tauting the cause of the affluent, and living off the state.

[Voice for Peace]

9. I keep hearing this stuff about personal responsibilty from Libertarians and Republicans.

But they think it's okay to rape and pillage the planet, poisoning the air land and water. WTF kind of personal responsibility is that?

[arcane1]

10. Just like those born-wealthy people that talk about "hard work" and "taking brave risks"

Yes, Donald, it's easy to "take a brave risk" on a $10mm real estate deal, when you get a $200mm trust fund on your 18th birthday

[orpupilofnature57]

13. + 1000 !!!

He most successful move, was being born .

[orpupilofnature57]

11. convenient

[calimary]

18. Nope. They mean that only for YOU. Not for themselves. YOU'RE the one who needs to

suck it up on that "personal responsibility" baloney. Themselves? Not on your life!

Reminds me of Leona Helmsley. "Only the little people pay taxes." Hers was one of the VERY few times when somebody in the 1% got it back up the ass. She went to prison.

[Maynar]

29. I smiled when that happened.

Hope it doesn't make me a bad person.

[Voice for Peace]

93. I clean up after myself. They don't even do that.

[kairos12]

32. They are about privatize profits and socialize losses.

That is their take on personal responsibility.

[calimary]

41. Btw - I LOVE your sig line quote!

"No snowflake in an avalanche feels responsible." !!!! MAN that's great!

[kairos12]

96. Thanks for the feedback.

[Voice for Peace]

94. yup, exactly so.

[Laelth]

8. k&r for the truth. n/t

-Laelth

[brewens]

14. How many wealthy people are way in the black on the tax system? A high paid corporate

officer at a company that does a lot of business with the federal, state and local governments would be easily. That's mosty our tax dollars paying their salry and bonuses. The right investments could get you there too. A lot of these bastard not only pay zero net taxes, they come out way ahead. It's like some fuedal lord living off taxing his peasants.

[Louisiana1976]

17. True. We're all their serfs.

[Fred Drum]

19. Actually

its EXACTLY like feudal lords living off taxing peasants

the only solution is "Peasants United" , thats trademarked by the way

i think if everyone could join the Union, for their 1.3%
everyone would join, or at least most

why can't everyone join a union?

[calimary]

50. Welcome to DU, Fred Drum!

Good to have you join us! Union member here. Sometimes that's the only way the "little guy" gets the ol' voice heard. We can't really count on many of our so-called reps. It's a lucky few of us who have good guys on our side.

[JEB]

100. From another post today

Thus after taking each individual by turns in its powerful hands and kneading him as it likes, the sovereign extends its arms over society as a whole; it covers its surface with a network of small, complicated, painstaking uniform rules through which the most original minds and the most vigorous souls cannot clear a way to surpass the crowd; it does not break wills, but it softens them, bends them, and directs them; ... it does not destroy, it prevents things from being born; it does not tyrannize, it hinders, compromises, enervates, extinguishes, dazes, and finally reduces each nation to nothing more than a herd of timid and industrious animals of which the government is the shepherd.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025503670

[ReRe]

36. They don't pay a penny in taxes...

... but get tax refunds that just materialize out of thin air that are automatically deposited into their bank accounts. And many of them don't even live in the United States anymore!

[MaggieD]

49. Not me. I pay a shit ton of taxes

And don't bitch about them even though I hate how much goes to defense spending. Believe it or not, not every rich person is an asshole.

[MohRokTah]

54. Most are.

The vast majority of rich people are the enemies of humanity.

[MaggieD]

78. Most is probably true

All is not true. That's all I'm saying.

[calimary]

16. They're the HOARDERS. All they do is hoard their money. They don't "create jobs," they don't

want to support their community or help fund the greater good.

DEMAND fuels the economy. SUPPLY not so much. Especially if there's no demand because people don't have discretionary income to spend. Hell, too many people don't have much of ANY kind of income to spend. It's the spenders, the consumers, the buyers, the shoppers, who fuel the economy.

[smirkymonkey]

26. +1000

Can't rec this enough. Why people don't understand this simple concept is beyond me.

[MaggieD]

40. Some do

[MaggieD]

52. I agree with you about demand fueling the economy

Some rich people get that. They aren't all takers. Some give back because of good liberal values. Some realize it's in their own best interest because demand drives the economy and their is no demand without good wages and benefits. Some rich people do the right thing for both reasons.

I get why people are mad at the rich. Many have horribly abused the system, especially in the last decade. But they aren't all like that.

[MohRokTah]

62. They are ALL takers

Convenient bullshit on the internet notwithstanding.

[MaggieD]

79. Well by that token

I could decide you're just a plant here to document right wing nut claims that all liberals are bitter about anyone that isn't dirt poor.

But that would be silly.

[grasswire]

70. Hoarders require INTERVENTION

The INTERVENTION for wealth hoarders is TAXATION.

[ladjf]

91. Gross hoarding is form of mental sickness, difficult to treat. nt

[calimary]

95. Could that be why it seems so hard to get rid of?

A perennial problem, it seems. One of the many human foibles to which we're all vulnerable? Or an aberration? How long has greed been one of our basic instincts? Or is it? I guess that's one of The Great Questions about the human condition. Christ sounded off about greed, and He was FAR from the first.

[ladjf]

97. Greed if a basic survival instinct. But, so is the desire to live.

The solution would be for the greedy to become fully aware that their greed will lead to their own undoing. Until that happens there will be no progress.

[procon]

20. The only goal of the very rich

Is to create more wealth for themselves. That does not translate into jobs.

[blkmusclmachine]

21. Ayn Rand shilled for the 1%, perhaps???

[Deny and Shred]

22. Artificially boosting demand is Trickle Up Economics

Most 1% had one good idea, if that. Most inherited their wealth, and that will continue.

Conventional talking-head thinking is all rich are akin to Edison. If the rich don't get paid handsomely for the phonograph, they won't invent the light bulb. Last I checked, those Walton kids ain't invented jack.

Its human nature to stop wildcatting and take a decent percentage from your money managers once you've crossed a certain wealth threshold. This 'job creator' stuff is a big ruse. They take or make jobs as the business climate dictates, nothing more nor less.

Re-institute regressive estate taxes. Tax capital gains & dividends much higher than wages. What's happened since Reagan is the reward of ALL capital. There should be a difference in reward between capitalizing a start-up idea, and buying a blue-chip for the dividends. America was formed, in part, on taking business risks and reaping the rewards. That should not be lost.

Trickle-up would have its benefits. Demand spikes, employment boosted, the poorest are at the least fed and housed. The idea includes many fleas, but still a dog that might hunt, as they say. It has to beat continuing to pad the accounts of the uber-rich. They aren't inventing things with this wealth, merely chasing yield, and recreating assets bubbles.

[Jackpine Radical]

23. Regressive estate taxes?

How would that work? You surrender everything in the estate up to the first $100,000 only get to keep the amount in excess of that?

Inherit up to 100k, keep nothing. Inherit 100 million, keep 99.9 million. Great plan.

[Deny and Shred]

24. Sorry. I meant deeply Progressive Estate Taxes

I had another idea, restructured the sentence, and missed the correction. I think the rest of my post clarifies, but just in case ...

... if the justification for handsomely rewarding ownership is that the person who created the business is among the best and brightest and may create brilliance again, I can understand that. However, their kids/grandkids ought to have to create something as well, not simply collect dividends.

Rewarding generations of offspring results in idle-rich - something the actual Founding Fathers found abhorrent, yet our current aristocracy will defend tooth and nail.

[Jackpine Radical]

25. I must concede I pretty well understood what you meant.

Some perverse imp got hold of me & caused me to ungraciously and deliberately misunderstand you for the sake of the cheap shot. I needn't have done that. I apologize

[Deny and Shred]

28. No biggie.

That perverse impulse has a life of its own; furthermore, it afflicts all of us at some point. As far as I'm concerned, it is exorcised - the power of progress compels you!

Peace.

[quaker bill]

27. By definition

The rich become rich by getting their hands on money and then keeping it.

If they spent it as fast as they received it, they would be poor like the rest of us.

[cantbeserious]

30. The Oligarchs, Corporations And Banks Own And Control The Politicians That Own And Control Us

eom

[kairos12]

31. Solve this problem with the French National Razor.

[Strat54]

33. Exactly right!!!

Keynes is the only economic theory that has been proven, repeatedly, to be true. Trickle down has been proven to not work (as predicted).

Ayn Rand was clueless and heartless. She was basically a sociopath.

[Diremoon]

34. Exactly right

You are absolutely correct. To all of the people who do not realize this yet, please wake up!

[calimary]

44. Welcome to DU, Diremoon and also Strat54!

Glad you're both here! I've heard it said that ayn rand turned selfishness into a sacrament. She sure does seem to have a lot of worshippers, unfortunately. And sadder and more bewildering still, many of them maintain that attitude while loudly proclaiming their Christianity.

[R. P. McMurphy]

35. I usually just lurk around here . . .

but I had to log in and give this an enthusiastic HELL YES!

[laundry_queen]

37. Well.

I can agree with that. I took a business degree at a good school and that was the conclusion I came to (well, my profs did too. I was lucky to have non-right wing profs. All were Keynesians to some degree.)

[MaggieD]

38. That's kind of broad brush

Not every rich person is a taker. A lot of us actually live our liberal values.

[MohRokTah]

39. No, it's not.

People who give back and don't fight against the strong middle class are not in the rich class, they are simply humans.

[MaggieD]

42. Not true

Some liberals are very rich. They aren't hoarders and they do try very hard to support liberal values. If you start and run a business successful enough to actually help provide good jobs that include full benefits it's hard not to get rich while you're at it.

Not every rich liberal is an asshole.

[MohRokTah]

43. I don't consider those people part of the rich class.

They are human beings.

Too bad they are few and far apart.

[MaggieD]

45. They aren't that few

And rich is a description of how much money a person has. So the term "rich" is being used incorrectly according to you.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but IME experience this OP is too broad brush. Being rich doesn't make a person a taker. Because a lot of rich people do very progressive things. Take Costco for instance.

I put hundreds of thousands into my most recent business, and my sole objective was to create jobs in 2009 when so many were hurting. Those jobs also came with 100% employer paid health dental vision life insurance, and 29 days paid time off in the first year. Edited to add - and they pay 2-3 times local min wage even though the employees rarely have a college education.

Later I did make lots of money on that business. But that wasn't my original motivation. I'm not a taker. I'm a maker. I'm lucky to be able to be one.

[MohRokTah]

51. I dont consider it broad brush

The vast majority of those who are rich are my enemies and deserve no consideration from me.

I will fight their evil to my last breath.

[MaggieD]

53. Okay - you're certainly entitled to your opinion

Everyone is.

[MohRokTah]

55. And I am part of the 99.999%

The other .00001% better watch their shit because WE ARE.

[MaggieD]

56. I'm part of the 1%

And I hand out 100 dollar bills to my employees when we have a very profitable month. That's in addition to good wages, employer paid benefits and 29 vacation days a year. And I pay the payroll taxes on the 100 dollar bills.

Sorry, were not all assholes.

[MohRokTah]

58. Quite frankly, I do not believe you.

Not one bit.

[MaggieD]

59. That's okay

It's still true. I've also never voted for a single republican in my entire 34 year history of voting. So believe it or not.

[MohRokTah]

60. Fine

I think it is nothing but internet bullshit.

Rich people are my enemies.

I'll lso note how convenient that a "rich person" posted on a thread that called out the Ayn Rand bullshit about takers and makers and how she was completely opposite of reality.

[MaggieD]

64. Okay - you can hate all rich people

I kind of hate all republicans. I get it. I'm just trying to give you a little hope.

[MohRokTah]

65. I don't believe a word you spout

Anybody can say anything on the internet.

[MaggieD]

68. They could...

But why would some random rich person sign up on a liberal site and agree with you about liberal values, and demand driving the economy instead of supply, and people deserving a much higher wage than minimum, and employers should pay 100% of the cost of benefits, etc. if they were just lying?

Or why would a poor person just not agree with you that all rich people are assholes?

What's my motivation to lie to you?

[MohRokTah]

71. It's bullshit propaganda.

It's what the rich haave always done.

It's all bullshit. The rich are against everybody but themselves, including other rich people.

[MaggieD]

77. Can you tell me how that holds true for the owners of Costco?

I always thought theirs was a good business ideal to emulate. Can you enlighten me?

[MaggieD]

46. P.S. I do love your sig line!

[Fred Drum]

80. being rich isn't a choice, you're born that way

that is a pretty good , eh, yeah

amirite

[Donald Ian Rankin]

86. So "the rich class" is not the same thing as "the rich"?

If so, you've picked a really confusing and misleading term for it.

[calimary]

47. Welcome to DU, MaggieD!

Good to have you with us! True. There are some super rich who give back, who aren't just interested in their own short-term gain but also in contributing to the greater good. But too many of them seem to want to tilt the playing field in their own direction and keep it tilted that way, and/or buy and own the government and almost every square geographical and other inch of this country for their own short-sighted benefit.

[MaggieD]

48. Thanks!

I do agree far too many are takers and don't give a shit about anyone except themselves. But it's far too broad brushed to say if you're rich you're a taker. I live in Seattle - there are lots of rich progressives here.

Being rich is not the "tell" that someone is a taker. Being a taker is the tell.

[MohRokTah]

57. Of all the rich, I estimate less than .0001% to not be takers.

The rest are the enemies of humanity.

[MaggieD]

61. Who knows?

I just know there are a lot of progressive rich liberals in Seattle where I live. Now imagine what it's like to spend your whole life in business trying to be a LIBERAL maker instead of an asshole corporate taker, and find this thread?

It's kind of insulting. It kind of denigrates everything I've tried to do in business my entire life. And a lot of people I know that have the same business values.

One of the things I learned early in life is never to say always or never about any group of people. Because when you do you're often wrong.

[MohRokTah]

63. I know anybody can claim any bullshit on the internet

and internet rich people are a dime a dozen.

[MaggieD]

66. Okay, I get it

You think I'm telling you some story. That's fine. I don't exist to convince you. I'm just trying to help you understand that some rich people are in the fight with you. You don't have to accept that. No problem.

[MohRokTah]

69. No, not a single rich person is in any fight with me.

Every last one of them is against me, and always have been.

[MaggieD]

74. I'm not against you

I've voted with you for 34 years, since I was 18 years old. I don't know if it's because I'm smart or lucky or have good karma or a combination of all of the above. I credit Carter and Clinton for their investments in people like me - low student loan rates, tax breaks for the middle class etc.

Reagan was president when I was struggling through college. Made me a Dem for life!

I wish you could meet some of my friends - all progressives. Our favorite saying is "I will never be rich enough to be a republican."

But by any measure I'm in the top 1%. I pledge to continue to fight for people like you even though you apparently hate me. No problem. Hugs.

[MohRokTah]

75. If you are rich, you are against me.

But again,. I don't believe a word you are spouting.

[MaggieD]

76. And I accept that you feel that way

The poor and middle class have been horribly abused by rich people. I can't argue that. I'm just trying to be the change I want to see.

On edit: I grew up poor. I know what's it like and never forgot it.

[grahamhgreen]

83. Could you afford to pay another 1% in taxes so granny can eat, or would it break you?

I know plenty of good people with money who wouldn't mind paying more

[MaggieD]

85. I could - but I prefer to give it to my employees.

And I do. I don't bitch about my tax rate but it makes me sick how much goes to death and destruction.

[LanternWaste]

101. You're receiving a lot of undeserved grief

You're receiving a lot of undeserved grief from posters I'd hitherto thought were rational people.

Regardless, it's always a good thing to know that many employers are invested in treating workers better than fairly!
(And welcome to DU)

[MaggieD]

102. You're so kind

Thank you. I do understand why so many are so pissed off. So I'm not taking it personally. If these folks knew me they'd understand I really am on the side of workers, the middle class, the poor, etc. I loathe republicans and greed heads too.

[Wolf Frankula]

67. Ayn Rand Hymned 'The Industrialist'

The inventor/entrepreneur who invented a new product or service. Today's Rich are stock market gamblers, inheritance babies or Masters of Barely Anything who destroy their enterprises for short term profit. Today's rich are parasites.

Wolf

[SonofMarx]

72. New here....can you provide some details? Thx

[MohRokTah]

73. .

Could you be any more transparent?

[SonofMarx]

81. Im not understanding ????

[pansypoo53219]

82. vampires. or zombies.

[B Calm]

84. The job creators are consumers, you and I. All the capitalists do is

suck profits off the demand!

[hifiguy]

98. 100% correct.

Demand creates supply.

[jimlup]

87. Absolutely

Really I'm sure this is taught in any business school of merit or should be. The smart "rich" know this and exploit it. This is why the Ayn Rand myth is so useful for them. What better mythology than to have those you wish to control doing your bidding for you!

[Oktober]

88. As with most systems... A balance is required...

[Orsino]

89. Unless she meant their making us do the work, and their making money off our labor. n/t

[ladjf]

90. You are correct. But, what is the plan to reverse this

terrible situation?

[colsohlibgal]

92. Crazy On Parade

Ayn Rand was a mental case taken way too seriously by way too many people.

Her message, it's good to have no empathy, is though pretty descriptive of the far right these days.

[econoclast]

99. Actually, no.

I see this fallacy trotted out like wisdom all the time. It takes BOTH supply and Demand to have a healthy economy.

The classic look at a low standard of living economy with high Demand was the old Soviet Union. Everyone had a job. Everyone had money to spend. But there was nothing to buy. Everyone went around with mesh shopping bags in their pockets on the off chance that some shop would have something worthwhile ... Meat ... Shoes ... Razor blades ...whatever. People would see a line outside a store and automatically get on the end. Even before they knew what people were queued up for. If there was a line, whatever it was must be good. Either it was something you wanted yourself or something you could trade.

That's what Demand alone gets you.

The old Soviet Union also showcased the opposite .... Supply with no demand. There were consumer goods stores that ONLY took hard currency... Dollars, Deutschemarks, Swissy, Pounds. These storeshad everything!!! Except customers. They had TVs, radios, fashion etc. But they were usually empty. Because, legally almost everyone got paid in rubles and could only own rubles. So with only rubmes you couldn't shop there. No hard currency? Out of luck.

So there were two disfunctional parallel systems. One with all demand and no supply. (The ruble system). The other with all supply and no demand. (The hard currency system)

[MaggieD]

103. You make a good point

My opinion, as a business owner, is that demand comes first in the equation. But demand is pretty pointless without the supply to meet it. That drives me crazy because it is such a wasted economic opportunity, and typically drives up prices beyond what the product or service is actually worth.