General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDo not do to others what is abhorrent to you.
This is one of the corollaries to the Golden rule, and the recent reclining airline seat incident brings it to mind. Like most people, I very much dislike being in a coach seat in an airline and having the person in front of me recline their seat. However, my reaction is not to be angry with the person who has reclined. It's a feature of the seats on that plane. I dislike it, but would not insist that the person in front of me put their seat in the upright position.
Instead, I respond by never, ever reclining my seat, because I know that it will annoy the person behind me. I cannot control the acts of others, but I can control my own acts. I will not do something if having the same thing done to me annoys me. Fortunately, many others also follow that rule and refrain from reclining their seats, too.
safeinOhio
(32,690 posts)The usual response is, anyone that drives faster than me is a maniac and any one that drives slower than me is an idiot. It never matters how fast I drive.
Glitterati
(3,182 posts)trivializing someone's strongly held beliefs because you don't agree.
Can you please explain why you just didn't move on to some other thread and had to stop and post your smarmy comment?
You really and truly couldn't find something more productive to do?
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)MineralMan
(146,317 posts)consciousness. I pay attention to the traffic around me, and try to drive so as not to impede it, while staying within the traffic laws. Sometimes, that means finding the traffic lane that matches my driving, rather than forcing others to drive like I do. It's not always easy, though.
Personally, I'd be happy if people just paid attention to what they were doing while driving a vehicle. I recognize that many drivers are not paying attention, though, so I am doubly attentive for self-protection.
Maeve
(42,282 posts)Like slowing down to let someone in, taking turns when lanes merge, all of which requires attention to others and the flow of traffic. Good driving lessons start in kindergarten, teaching us to get along with others.
And on a plane--usually it is possible to ask before reclining. The person behind might not mind (particularly if you don't go full back) and will at least be glad of the warning, especially if their laptop is on the tray.
Courtesy and civility, true enough, MineralMan!
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)If I expect others to make room for me, then I must make room for others. It's a very simple equation. Recognizing that we are not, individually, the most important person on the planet is where it begins. Uncommon courtesy should be more common, I think.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I really can't. I barely notice when the person in front of me does it.
Seeing people here say that anyone who does it is a "horrible person" or a "bag of dicks" has truly been enlightening.
Some people work really hard at finding the smallest most meaningless things to he outraged about.
Meanwhile feminists and sociologists have been pointing out the link between sexual objectification and violence against women for decades now and still most DUers are aligned with the RW view of the issue.
But this, this, people are outraged about.
Glitterati
(3,182 posts)I mean, when folks TRY to ally with you and don't toe your imaginary lines in the sand, thereby crossing some line of impurity, you dog them to death.
Yeah, not looking for allies who would just as soon stomp my face in the ground as agree with me.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)than actual issues that affect people's lives in material ways seems to me to be the issue here.
Reclining airline seats? Really? Hardly comparable to anything truly horrible.
Glitterati
(3,182 posts)It's about being disrespected. It's about the fact that the airlines disrespect their paying customers enough to pack them in like sardines and then act surprised when those sardines fight for space to breath.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)They're always balancing profits against demand. Each airline handles passenger comfort differently. I fly economy airlines, so I pay less for my seat, in general. Do I give up a bit of comfort to save money? Yes. You needn't do that, if you choose. Other airlines have larger seats and more space. If that's an important issue for you, you can pay the price for that. If a budget airline crams too many people into their planes, fewer people will fly on those airlines, if they're uncomfortable enough.
It is a first world problem, and insignificant, really.
Glitterati
(3,182 posts)flights are only full because they cancel flights that are not full.
As for me, I simply do not fly. I will not fly as long as a strip search is required to get on an airplane.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)Strip searched? In all of my flying during my lifetime, I've never been strip searched.
safeinOhio
(32,690 posts)The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,748 posts)I used to work for an airline and I know this for a fact. What they sometimes do is oversell the coach seats because they can count on a certain number of no-shows. If a flight on a particular route or city-pair never fills up, this indicates there is insufficient demand for that flight to justify it. Profit margins at airlines are razor thin and no sane business offers a service at a loss. However, no airline wants to give up a route and lose it to another airline, but they have to balance the cost of the service against the revenue. Nevertheless, they do not just cancel a flight just because it isn't full.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)More likely they are trying to find what little comfort they can and are allowed to.
I wonder why you take it personally.
Glitterati
(3,182 posts)Reading comprehension is the ability to read text, process it and understand its meaning.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reading_comprehension
Response to Glitterati (Reply #58)
Live and Learn This message was self-deleted by its author.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)of failing to read the entire post. I guess I only read the first sentence and jumped to conclusions. I do apologize and I agree with your post.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)The reclining feature of most airline seats does little to promote comfort anyhow. It's mostly psychological, I think. I'm always amused when someone reclines their seat and then keeps trying to make it recline further by violently attempting to push the seat back over and over again.
It is a first world problem, really. Personally, I'm still amazed that I can get on a plane in Minneapolis and arrive in Los Angeles just three hours later. Everything else is secondary to that. I can manage a little discomfort for that advantage. Really I can.
We humans rage at inconsequential, mildly annoying things while ignoring monstrous things. It's puzzling.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Many people aren't so used to flying as others.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)that they never bother to think about anything but their own wants. I don't know. I don't really care. When I get on a plane, my goal is to soon get off the plane safely at my destination. Other issues aren't really that important to me. I don't fly a lot anymore, but I used to fly frequently. I'm still always amazed that our technology makes such travel possible. It's wonderful.
When my 89-year-old father had a brain bleed last year, I was able to be at his bedside in less than 24 hours, 2/3 of the way across the country. I could have been there sooner, but his condition was stable enough to let me fly out the next morning. That's just freaking amazing.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)I got deep vein thrombosis from a cross-country flight because I couldn't move around enough. Nobody gets a blood clot because they aren't reclined.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)passenger.
There are always seats that have more leg room and seats that do not recline (by the emergency exits). Why not get yourself one of the sets with the room or behind the ones that don't recline?
meaculpa2011
(918 posts)I don't mind if the passenger in front of me reclines and I don't care if the passenger in back gets annoyed when I recline.
Personally, I have no patience for those whose mission in life is to be irritated, outraged, angered and offended every ten seconds.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)for long periods of time very uncomfortable. Live and let live.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)I used to be able to fly coach comfortably 15-20 years ago and I am 6'1"/215#. Now I need a therapeutic massage after being in coach for a couple of hours.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)If pumping funds into markets increases the effects of climate change while funding the deniers, increases the power of those who are crushing our democracy and assuredly increasing the suffering of every form of life to roam this planet.
Man, talk about crushing those behind us.
Those born now and soon to be born are being welcomed into a death spiral all thanks to people who have no qualms laying that seat down on them.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)It's the nature of life. Live as well as you can during your short stay.
raouldukelives
(5,178 posts)That spiral will be much shorter, much warmer and way more frightening.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)Lots of 90-somethings out there, and the number of people over 100 is growing quickly.
You could be right, down the road, but that remains to be seen.
Gothmog
(145,344 posts)I agree
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)Gothmog
(145,344 posts)Basically the Torah can be summarize as "Treat others as you would want to be treated and everything else is commentary"
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)That's the reason why reclining seats are there in the first place.
And I can't travel more than an hour or so sitting upright in a bus or airplane seat, and certainly not 10 or 11 or 12 or 13 hours on a trans-Pacific flight.
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)seats were available, the person in front of me didn't use that feature. I'm sorry you have problems that require you to recline your seat to survive your flight. As I said in my OP, I won't say anything or insist that you raise your seat if you're in the row ahead of me. I simply won't recline mine, for the reasons I mentioned in my OP.
I'm not telling anyone else what not to do. I'm telling people what I do. It's interesting that some people are missing that.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)But no one can travel without their knees, unfortunately. And some people have knees that require that space. Having cramped legs can lead to deep vein thrombosis, a known risk of flying.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)Took me 5 hours to get through the Dallas traffic on I-35. I would pull off at an exit and go to the rest room (uncontrolled diabetes), and come back and sit in the driver's seat slumped over and panting violently from not getting enough air. Ketoacidosis. Burning fat instead of carbs. I lost weight, but I almost died.
Two days later I was in the hospital in another town (my destination) with pulmonary emboli (blood clots in my lungs--they travel from your legs through your heart when they break away and land in your lungs, basically trying to suffocate you) in ICU. Spent eight days there in ICU, still paying off the bill a bit at a time.
Dallas sucks! (There are a few nice people there!)
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)They had the seatbelt light on most of the time, so I was stuck in the cramped seat.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)people that have cramped legs do?
By the way, they sell socks to counter the risk of thrombosis and the only other real way to counter it is to stand and walk on occasion. Try taking a stroll to the restroom occasionally.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)That seems to be happening more and more lately. But I did go to the restroom because I always do.
Those socks help but don't prevent DVT. I wear them every day but movement is the key. Not having the legs in a cramped position is important.
The other thing that helps is to drink plenty of fluids (but not alcohol) because plane travel dehydrates. The airlines should be serving more fluids than they do, so I buy my own in the airport shop.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)people stand since it is such a risk. They have packed the planes so tightly that there is barely room to walk in the aisles and you can't stand by your seat because the ceiling is so low.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)People want to petition the airlines to make all the seats non-reclining, great. But as long as they are, that's part of the deal with flying.
Acting in abject horror and offense when someone does what is a perfectly legitimate part of the ticket they bought, namely putting their seat back, is silly.
Whoever came up with the idea that it is "rude and offensive" was just making stuff up. They should have brought it to the airlines and airplane manufacturers, not tried invent some nonexistent rule to stop people from doing something that is a perfectly legitimate action as a flying member of the public.
Edited to add: I also fully expect that the person in front of me is going to put their seat back too, and i don't find that "abhorrent"
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)openly object if people use that feature of their seat. Instead, I simply do not recline my own seat back, because I know it's annoying to do that. That's the core of my post.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)So they should disable the recline function, then. It's not the flyers' responsibility.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)them to fit men's average bottom width in 1960 -- 14" -- not thinking about the fact that women's bottoms on average are bigger, and that men's backs and shoulders are several inches wider than their hips. Then they squeezed all the leg room out.
And Americans are larger than they were in 1960, not smaller. No wonder no one over the age of 10 is comfortable.
Zorra
(27,670 posts)MineralMan
(146,317 posts)pnwmom
(108,980 posts)What about those with longer legs? Why should they have to pay $78 dollars more per flight-leg -- amounting to over $300 dollars on a typical 1 stop itinerary -- if those seats are even available?
Why shouldn't they charge the recliners more instead?
Zorra
(27,670 posts)The 3 inches or whatever that a reclined seat in front of me takes up does not generally affect me. I would much prefer to have the ability to recline and be able to get comfortable enough to sleep, than have 3 extra inches in front of me that I don't use anyway. And I prefer that the person in front of me has the choice to recline, because I want the choice for myself.
Some like it hot, some like it cold, and some people would complain if you hung 'em with a new rope.
Airlines squeeze people into planes like sardines in order to maximize profit, because they can. We can't boycott them if we need to fly, so they own us, and we have no recourse to effect change. It's not Burger King. We either get it their way, or we take the bus, unless we have the money to fly elite.
If we lived in a country that had a genuinely democratic government, we would be able to get our Congress to pass laws that forced airlines to provide safer and more comfortable seating. Unfortunately, the same 1% oligarchs who own the airlines also own Congress, so this is not an option.
In the meantime, there is obviously a division between those who prefer to have the choice to recline, and those who prefer to not have this choice.
So...under present circumstances, if half an aircraft was equipped with reclining seats, and the other half was equipped with non-reclining seats, and passengers were given their choice of either, at the same price per ticket, would that be a reasonable solution, a satisfactory compromise, for you?
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)And I've had deep vein thrombosis after a plane flight, because I couldn't move my legs enough and the seatbelt light was on most of the flight.
I wouldn't mind if the seats were divided as you described. They should do something, because blood clots are a known risk of flying, and they can put people in the hospital or even kill them.
Mariana
(14,858 posts)Those sound like excellent questions for the airlines.
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)I almost came unglued once because I was squeezed by a "large" person, while sitting in the middle seat. I spent most of that flight in a flight attendant seat, in the rear of the plane. Flight attendants understood and even offered me that seat, but I had to go back to my other seat for touchdown. Unless I can be in an aisle seat I will not fly. Even in the aisle seat I have problems when somebody pushes his/her seat back. Makes me feel trapped in a small space. I also have similar reactions in densely packed crowds and in a full elevator.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)I am small enough that I don't have to worry about leg room. And I can fit between the armrests. But fat people slopping their fat arms and sides over my armrest makes me very uncomfortable.
One time I was in an aisle seat on the right. The two people next to me were looking out the window at the baggage loading conveyor, and yelled at a flight attendant about their baggage being tossed on its way into the plane.
The whole time there was a flight attendant bent over me talking to them. His right hand was on the seat back behind my head, and his tie was dangling in front of my face. His left hand was on the seat back of the seat in front of me. So I literally couldn't do anything with this guy hovering over me. He was practically on top of me with his arms and chest trying to reassure these people. He couldn't do anything about the baggage tossing, I am sure. No doubt feeding them a line of corporate bullshit. It was very uncomfortable with a strange man that close to me. That sucked.
I stopped flying a few years ago. I don't have any relatives that are far away.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)can extend well over his seat and armrest.
mythology
(9,527 posts)but I have the problem with my shoulders leaning over. I had a flight a couple of years ago, fortunately just a hop, where I was the smallest guy on the row. I felt bad for the guy in the middle.
But I also have knees where there's a bad knee and a worse knee. So being crammed into airplane seats is just an all around awful experience for me. It's better if I get one of the extended leg room seats, but not by much.
pnwmom
(108,980 posts)men's average hip width -- 14 inches at the time. They didn't account for the fact that women's hips are wider on the average and men's backs and shoulders are much wider. So men's shoulders have always been extending over their armrests.
And then, of course, people just got bigger -- but the seats didn't.
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)And navigating through airports, security etc. is a another miserable nightmare. My flying days are pretty much over also. Our daughter lives in another state, and if she gets married of course we'll go, but hopefully non-stop.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)I am not one of these people with a fast metabolism who can eat anything they want and stay thin.
But my fat doesn't go all the way around, so to speak.
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)The second category is what I've dealt with on flights. I have NO prejudice against extremely overweight people, but when trapped in a sardine can with one I tend to fall apart. Like I mentioned I also do this in other environments, which I avoid. Really doesn't have anything to do with the size of a person, but how much room I feel I have around me. When I have a panic attack in these situations, it feels like I am trapped and can't breathe.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)That was my point. I have a few extra pounds but I'm not morbidly obese to the point of not fitting in an airline seat.
Don't get me started on people on scooters, or I'll definitely be non-PC.
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)Indoor scooters.
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)Yeah, they're irritating, but maybe people cannot shop any other way.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)Where is a big old gigantic stinky fart when you need one?
MineralMan
(146,317 posts)can do to make flying easier for you, though. Consider paying extra for an exit row or bulkhead seat to get more room and be less confined. That would be my suggestion. First Class is another option, but an expensive one.
MoonRiver
(36,926 posts)But my spinal problems are making long trips more and more difficult. When we went overseas this summer I had to use a wheelchair to navigate through O'Hare and Heathrow. I do not like that because I am decades younger than when both my mother and his mother had to use one. I feel very self-conscious.
I only need a wheelchair when navigating through giant airports however. I would be very happy if I never set foot on an airplane again.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)so do not impose my want on another.
Manifestor_of_Light
(21,046 posts)They're into receiving pain in certain controlled circumstances. That is different from other people that avoid pain. What then?
People are different. Different people want different things to be happy.
reflection
(6,286 posts)When I fly, if I want to recline, I ask the person behind me if they mind. If they say yes, I ease it back ever so slightly, and check with them again - "is that ok?" No one has ever said no or complained. If they did, I'd either raise it up all the way back or halfway back as a compromise. It's all about communication. We just need to talk to each other more, smile and engage.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)MineralMan
(146,317 posts)I'm not familiar with that cartoon character.
GoCubsGo
(32,086 posts)That's why I prefer it straight up. I also have to use my carry-on as a foot rest to further take pressure off my back. Consequently, my knees get whacked whenever the person in front of me reclines. It also sucks having the back of the seat in front of you right in your face. Some choice I have: a sore back or bruised knees. It's also really hard to read in a reclining position.
Skittles
(153,169 posts)I respect the space of others even if I do not know them
KoKo
(84,711 posts)"Manners" are out of date. "Rudeness" is an archaic term. "Courtesy" is a word that one would have to look up in the dictionary and devise what the meaning could mean.
You and I grew up in a different time. Or, perhaps we grew up differently. I would engage the person in back of me and tell them "I would like to recline my seat a bit...is that okay with you?"
But, perhaps I misread your post.
ballabosh
(330 posts)I'm 6'4" so it's hard enough for me to fit comfortably in airline seats let alone if someone reclines. But I don't complain if someone does. But I don't recline for that reason. I never thought the two inches of reclining made any difference anyway.
Also, when I got to a concert/movie/play, I try to get an end or rear seat and scrunch down or lean to the side as much as possible so as not to obstruct the view of the people behind me. I can see over most people, but I realize that most people can't see over me. That's just me.
frazzled
(18,402 posts)even if they don't want it done to themselves. I think you're too optimistic about the golden rule as applied to air travel.
My main issue is that when the person in front of me reclines, it blocks the light coming from the overhead bulb, and then not only can I not read or work, but the tray table (another airplane option everyone has the right to use) is pushed right up to my chest.
Realistically, the only way to engage people is not through "modeling" nice behavior and hoping they will follow suit, but to get up, walk to their row, and politely explain to them the ways in which their reclining is bothering you. They need to know. They'll probably say, "tough shit." But hopefully the people sitting around them will give them the stink eye.