General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsUnbelievable pictures of California's vanishing lakes (before and after).......
I have only included the first set, many more at the link.....
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2731091/California-s-vanishing-lakes-Before-photos-reveal-shocking-shriveling-effect-state-s-devastating-drought-decades.html
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Many are fundamentalists who think that nature's resources are here to serve man to the exclusion of any other purpose.
Throd
(7,208 posts)SheilaT
(23,156 posts)There are millions more people in California than the available water can possibly support.
Logical
(22,457 posts)NickB79
(19,258 posts)We have some tough choices to make as climate change ramps up. None of them will be pleasant.
WhiteTara
(29,722 posts)I love California and we moved to save the state from 2 more people. We now live in NW Arkansas, which is also lovely.
moriah
(8,311 posts)... I don't think fewer people is the answer any more than telling people to move from Louisiana or Florida (where sea level flooding is an issue) is the answer either.
(Used to live up in NWA, when I worked supporting the Evil Empire.)
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)(not to mention my job...)
WhiteTara
(29,722 posts)I moved closer to my mother and I'm happy I did.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)oh this gives me an idea.
Jackpine Radical
(45,274 posts)You're keeping Arnold. Nobody else wants him.
And that goes for a bunch of others too. All the ones you're thinking of, most likely.
Response to WhiteTara (Reply #8)
Art_from_Ark This message was self-deleted by its author.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)We are overpopulated, it's not like rocket surgery!
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)It's not up to me to tell California how to lose its excess people or how to tell Californians to leave. The simple fact of the matter is that there are too may people on this planet for sustainability. Just by being alive I'm also part of the problem, and I know that. But blithely moving to places that are already horrendously overpopulated only makes things worse.
At some point there will be a break, something that causes a precipitous decline in population. Disease, natural disaster, I have no idea how it will happen, but happen it will.
RKP5637
(67,112 posts)the problems, but it's now too far over the edge I fear. Humans often only do reactionary solutions than proactive solutions, but in this case that is not going to work IMO. Any thinking this can just continue on and on really have their head up their butt. We all live in a finite space with finite resources for sustaining life ... but far too many are in denial. And far too many are only interested in greed.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)bathing, drinking and other household uses and even limited outdoor uses.
but the majority of our water is not used for domestic purposes.
robinlynne
(15,481 posts)rain water collection, hydroponics, substitute water grubbing grass for other grasses in all public places, so many possibilities.
oh STOP Nestle bottling and selling Ca water.
reuse water from washing machines.
The list goes on.
Warpy
(111,339 posts)The rabble only manage to fuck up the scenery. Better they should die.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Last edited Mon Aug 25, 2014, 09:09 PM - Edit history (1)
Warpy
(111,339 posts)I'll take the water and make my way east. Scorpions, rattlesnakes and cactus aint half bad if you cook them properly.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Why do you dislike the idea of desalinization?
Sounds good to me, but I don't know that much about science. We are really suffering from the drought out here. Lowering the population in our area will not work. There are no jobs for Californians outside of California, and many of us own our homes here. More and more people are pouring into Los Angeles. You should see the apartments being built.
We have to find water somehow.
You can't just order people out.
Besides, what is happening to California may well happen more and more across the country.
What is your idea for a solution?
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)On the coast.
It can be done, it just can't be done by an unlimited number of people.
It just cant, JD. It can't now, it never will be possible.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)If I did, they'd probably be grown by now, and the second home requires that I sell the first one soon, but both have no lawns, only a few plants or plants that require no water.
And the point I'm really trying to make is based on a life experience around water issues, going literally back to the sixties when the Peripheral Canal was first proposed.
California is a state with a long history of public projects that favored rich developers. We have been spoiled to death by having abundant energy and water.
Thankfully, progressive legislation has curbed our electrical energy use (we still suck in the transport sector) but not nearly enough has been done to cure water use.
Living a life with a smaller energy, carbon, and water-use footprint is a choice right now, but it probably needs to become a matter of regulation.
Nothing free and desalination plants will used energy, require infrastructure, and (worst of all to me) allow schemes by developers to turn nice quiet stretches of coastline, like Cambria, CA, into new sprawling subdivisions.
I name Cambria because they've had a water shortage and thus a virtual building moratorium for decades, and it remains a pretty place.
So, between requiring water conservation and supporting other measures, we can still grow our economy and population without new technologies to support our bad habits.
I hope you see what I mean.
http://www.saveourh2o.org/
PS, new rules in my email today give me some hope:
The California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) has adopted a resolution requiring us to notify you of four prohibited water uses established by the State Water Resources Control Board in July 2014 in response to severe drought conditions:
1. Do not apply potable water to outdoor landscapes in a manner that causes runoff onto adjacent property, non-irrigated areas, private and public walkways, roadways, parking lots, or structures.
2. Do not wash a motor vehicle with potable water using a water hose, unless that hose is fitted with a shut-off nozzle or another attachment that stops water from flowing when the hose is not immediately in use.
3. Do not use potable water on any driveways and sidewalks.
4. Do not use potable water in a fountain or other decorative water feature, unless the water is part of a recirculating system.
The CPUC also authorized us to use various tools to enforce these restrictions, including flow-restricting devices and discontinuance of service. Local enforcement agencies may also impose fines of up to $500. We prefer to avoid using these enforcement tools if at all possible; however, we will be required to take action if a customer repeatedly violates these restrictions.
Please visit www.calwater.com/drought for updated information about the prohibited water uses, other unauthorized water uses, and mandatory outdoor irrigation restrictions in our Water Conservation and Rationing Plan (Rule 14.1 in our tariff). We also encourage you to take advantage of conservation programs available to Cal Water customers and listed on our web site.
Please do not reply to this e-mail. If you need assistance, please contact us at www.calwater.com/contact-us
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)i fail to see how adding a second residence in another part of the state as a vacation home, no matter how efficient, is the key to saving water for most Californians.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Last edited Mon Aug 25, 2014, 07:40 PM - Edit history (1)
We need to treat water with greater respect, we eventually will outlaw washing cars and watering lawns with purified treated drinking water.
If we learn to use less water we won't need desal plants, which require a lot of energy and are not without their environmental impacts.
http://www.epa.gov/watersense/our_water/water_use_today.html
http://www.data360.org/dsg.aspx?Data_Set_Group_Id=757
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)in this very thread???
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)You do understand that, right? Two homes or twenty two, they don't use water without me and I use what I use, period.
Also, I don't plan to keep both, I plan to sell and move now that my parents are both gone, I know you remember that.
And, in any event, my water usage is low whether I'm at one home or the other.
One home is on waterfront and uses no domestic water for landscaping, we can pump from the river if we want lawns but I don't.
I collect rain water and grey water for my tomatoes and succulents, and otherwise use native species that require no special watering.
The other place will be my only home once I downsize my crap and sell this place.
Much nicer at the ocean. On Thursday morning I looked up from my laptop and out the window, a humpback whale!
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Yeah, that's gonna work.
edit: Or is it for the poors to leave?
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)And I'm not wealthy. Hard work and savings, working multiple jobs. That's not "wealthy", that's more like "thrifty".
As written in other replies in this thread, people need to use less water per capita and then we'll have plenty for all.
We are water gluttons, but then Americans are gluttons in so many ways, using well beyond a fair share of energy, creating far more waste and GHG emissions than other developed countries, and it's the same with water use.
Why can't we cut back?
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)This spread sounds like it's got a lot of lawn, dude. http://www.democraticunderground.com/1237914
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)I have no lawn, none. Not a damn thing in that post that you found suggests a lawn, there is no lawn.
I bought the second home only this year and I fully expect to have sold my current residence soon, I'm not able to carry two mortgages.
So, yeah, I'm going to encourage thrift and conservation in matters pertaining to energy and water.
There's really no reason for anyone to become bitter about this, water is precious and we need to conserve it.
Thanks in advance.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)except perhaps self-awareness.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)It would seem that the *most* populous regions of the state are actually using much less water. (Other than Hillsborough, geeze my landlady lives there and has been threatening to charge us for the building's higher water bills. Nice. Maybe she should move.)
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)often poor people use less water than the wealthy, who knew???
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)LOL.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)so that the golf course in Hillsborough can be watered.
teamwork.
yuiyoshida
(41,861 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)Last edited Mon Aug 25, 2014, 09:27 PM - Edit history (1)
also, my concerns with it do not mean that I agree with anything the anti-desalination person in this thread does, even his comments on desalination.
my concerns are:
1) it uses a lot of energy, it should not be the first alternative used to address water scarcity, but a secondary or limited measure or supply
2) there may be marine impacts, they should be addressed and mitigated
3) the amount of energy and resources required to desalinate ocean water is often more than the resources and energy needed to conserve or divert that amount from elsewhere (with fewer environmental consequences). when that's the case, conservation should be used, not desalination.
Rex
(65,616 posts)I'd like to meet them, because that would be a first.
moriah
(8,311 posts).... certainly better than the cost of trucking in potable water from other areas of the country.
Not all desalination plants discharge brine.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)if the landscape doesn't support that population?
Have you ever driven up or down I-5 in the central valley of California, from Bakersfield north to Sacramento?
The signs along the highway speak for themselves.
Do they speak for you? Are you in favor of an unnatural water system to make money for landowners trying to grow cotton and tomatoes in a former desert?
Speak up.
moriah
(8,311 posts)I mean, it's just going to go underwater eventually anyway....
"We don't care that you're fucked, sucks to be you and live where you do. Just move!"
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)namely, the Central Valley?
NickB79
(19,258 posts)Domestic use for drinking and washing is a drop in the bucket.
Without cheap water, you lose much of your agriculture and manufacturing, which tanks your economy.
Even with desal. plants, once the economy takes a shit, people will leave anyway for wetter states.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)Human beings are problem solvers. If we can find environmentally responsible ways to desalinate ocean water, why the fuck not?
Rex
(65,616 posts)Yeah...me either. Strange reply imo.
Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)mindwalker_i
(4,407 posts)I've driven through there many times, and to be fair, it's usually low in summer. I think the first one must have been in the middle of winter to be that high. That said, it is extremely low in the latter pictures. I think of all those poor people who are unable to race their motor boats (and thus pollute the air further).
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)CreekDog
(46,192 posts)simple reading of the text and viewing of the photos readily indicate, even to people not from California, that it is Lake Oroville.
Logical
(22,457 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)had sunk so remarkably. By the way, the first picture is from 2011, not so long ago.
exboyfil
(17,865 posts)that while Shasta is not at its lowest point, it sure is lower than in the recent past.
http://cdec.water.ca.gov/cdecapp/resapp/resDetailOrig.action?resid=SHA
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)ironically, the confusion started when the person from "these parts" started lecturing people for not recognizing a photo of Lake Shasta when it was actually a photo of Lake Oroville.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)and didn't catch that.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)Where are you from?
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)since he seems to think Lake Oroville is Lake Shasta.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)There's a REALLY similar bridge at Shasta.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)bhikkhu
(10,724 posts)2012-2013 was a decent water year for Northern California, it just fell off a cliff last year. The Farmer's almanac says a "normal winter" is coming, so there should be some recovery. Better snowpack would make the levels more stable year-round, but that may not be happening in any case.
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)I haven't been by Lake Oroville for many years, but it just happens that I passed through Shasta a few years ago and it was pretty damn low and we haven't had the rainfall and snowpack we have typically had.
It's presently not full, like most of our reservoirs, and something that most people don't appreciate is that, at full capacity, most of the volume of water is in the upper few feet of water; you don't measure volume by depth but if you want to think about it, being 148 feet below crest, a 15 story building, you have to admit
Shasta Lake is experiencing a near-historic low-water year following extreme drought conditions, and that's presenting challenges to boaters, fishermen, and others.
For example, the Sugarloaf Boat Ramp, located in Lakehead, became inoperable on August 21st.
The loss leaves the Jones Valley Boat Ramp and Centimudi Boat Ramp as the only remaining public launches facilities.
The Jones Valley Boat Ramp is currently co-located with the Jones Valley Marina. Anyone wanting to launch their boats there will need to pay their launch fee as they enter the fee area, and will need to utilize Jones Valley Marina's dock as the courtesy dock. The currently accessible ramp at Jones Valley (Ramp 3) is narrow, and the access route is long, but should accommodate most recreation boats.
For more information or updates on changing conditions, please contact the Shasta Lake Ranger Station at 530-275-1587.
http://www.actionnewsnow.com/news/low-water-levels-close-another-public-boat-launch-at-lake-shasta/
Thanks!
CreekDog
(46,192 posts)...about Lake Shasta.
It's pretty clear what you did and what you thought.
XemaSab
(60,212 posts)Logical
(22,457 posts)CrispyQ
(36,509 posts)Capitalism is killing the planet. You cannot have unlimited growth in a finite system. If we don't rein our numbers in, Mother Nature will.
While our planet is changing, humanity is partying like it's 1999.
NYC_SKP
(68,644 posts)And people, even people in this thread, seem to treat it as an inexhaustible resource.
Thanks for your reply.
aint_no_life_nowhere
(21,925 posts)Irvine is a giant town with an immense territory, typical of southern Califorrnia. Irvine and other similar vast incorporated towns like Mission Viejo, Laguna Niguel, Aliso Viejo, Coto de Caza, or Lake Forest used to be open desert of golden scrub grass with mile upon mile of cattle ranching near the ocean. It used to be a very colorful natural setting to drive past before developers decided to completely change it into gigantic developed incorporated communities.
Just the name Lake Forest tells you that they wanted to try to change open desert into central Minnesota. Driving today through Irvine with all the greenery and trees I asked myself "where are they getting all the water to keep this place looking like New England?"
Brother Buzz
(36,463 posts)As awful and disgusting as those plastic instant communities developed by the Irvine Company appear, I give them high marks for their pioneering work in recycling water. They had the foresight to install dual water main system throughout; one for potable water, and one for reclaimed water. All that green is from yesterday's bathroom.
AtomicKitten
(46,585 posts)I fear we've passed the point of no return.
OxQQme
(2,550 posts)I also (mistakenly) thought that was the interstate bridge over Lake Shasta. I was shocked by how low Shasta is.
On another note about water, I was relieving myself at a men's public urinal that was a new-fangled device that used no water. A sign at eye level noted that this one urinal saved 20,000 gallons per year by not flushing. ONE URINAL!
Logical
(22,457 posts)locks
(2,012 posts)that would really help all over the world would be if all those right-to-lifers, fundies, Muslims, Jews, and Catholics would spend all that time, emotion, and money they use to to stop abortions to promote, pay for, and educate people, men and women, about the wonders of contraception.