So much for politics stopping at the water’s edge

[babylonsister]

Posted with permission, and this sucks. Where are the Dems condemning this?

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/so-much-politics-stopping-the-waters-edge

So much for politics stopping at the water’s edge
08/22/14 12:45 PM—Updated 08/22/14 02:07 PM
By Steve Benen


We talked earlier about Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.), who brought three television cameras, three photographers, six reporters, a political aide, two press secretaries, and far-right activist David Bossie to Guatemala for a “stage-managed political voyage.” But it appears that wasn’t the only reason for the trip.

Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) told the Guatemalan president the surge of child immigrants flooding the U.S. border this year is a result of President Obama’s policies, not problems in Central America.

“I told him, frankly, that I didn’t think the problem was in Guatemala City, but that the problem was in the White House in our country, and that the mess we’ve got at the border is frankly because of the White House’s policies,” Paul told Brietbart News in an article published Thursday.

According to the report in The Hill, the Kentucky Republican sat down with Guatemalan President Otto Perez Molina for 45 minutes, and the senator discussed politics with the foreign head of state.

“I think what’s happened at the border is all squarely at the president’s lap,” Paul said. “The problem and the solution aren’t in Guatemala. The problem and solution reside inside the White House.”

As a substantive matter, the senator’s position is tough to defend or even understand. President Obama didn’t sign the 2008 human-trafficking measure into law; he didn’t create awful conditions in Central American countries; and he didn’t encourage anyone to lie to desperate families about what would happen to their children. If there’s a coherent explanation for why the White House to blame, it’s hiding well.

But even putting that aside, since when is it kosher for U.S. officials to travel abroad to condemn U.S. leaders like this?

In fairness, it’s hard to say with certainty exactly what Rand Paul told President Molina during their discussion. I haven’t seen a video of the meeting and all we have to go on is the senator’s own claims.

But if Paul is telling the truth, he traveled abroad, visited with a foreign leader, and spent time trashing the president of the United States.

I seem to remember a time when there were norms that deemed actions like this unacceptable.

Under traditional American standards, some considered it inappropriate to criticize the president when he was overseas. More importantly, when U.S. officials were outside the country, norms called on those officials to refrain from criticizing America’s elected leaders.

I guess that doesn’t apply anymore? These standards were certainly in place during the Bush/Cheney era.

Here’s what happened in 2006 when Al Gore gave a speech at a conference in Saudi Arabia in which he criticized Bush policies towards the Muslim world – as summarized by The New York Times’ Chris Sullentrop:

“As House Democrats David Bonior and Jim McDermott may recall from their trip to Baghdad on the eve of the Iraq war, nothing sets conservative opinionmongers on edge like a speech made by a Democrat on foreign soil. Al Gore traveled to Saudi Arabia last week, and in a speech there on Sunday he criticized ‘abuses’ committed by the U.S. government against Arabs after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. A burst of flabbergasted conservative blogging followed the Associated Press dispatch about the speech… The editorial page of Investor’s Business Daily accused Gore of ‘supreme disloyalty to his country’….”

The Wall St. Journal’s James Taranto accused Gore of “denouncing his own government on foreign soil” and quoted the above accusation of “disloyalty.” Commentary was abundant all but accusing Gore of treason for criticizing the U.S. in a foreign land.

I’ll concede that such niceties may be antiquated, and maybe no one cares about this anymore. But if presidential criticism abroad was outrageous in the Bush/Cheney era, why does it barely cause a ripple now?

Update: Just to flesh this out further, in 2010, then-House Minority Leader Eric Cantor (R-Va.) traveled to Israel in the hopes of undermining U.S. foreign policy towards Israel. At the time, this caused quite a stir in foreign-policy circles – it seemed extraordinary for an elected American official to travel abroad in order to work against his own country’s position.

Perhaps now, with the Rand Paul example in mind, the practice is becoming more common.

For even more context, note that in 2007, then-House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) met with Syrian officials in Syria. Republicans, including Cantor, suggested Pelosi may have violated the Logan Act, “which makes it a felony for any American ‘without authority of the United States’ to communicate with a foreign government to influence that government’s behavior on any disputes with the United States.”

One wonders who, if anyone, will raise similar allegations against Rand Paul.

[Andy823]

1. Plain insanity if you ask me

I too hope there will be some dens who get pissed off and bring out the hypocrisy of the GOP when it comes to idiots like Paul saying this kind of crap about the president to leader of other countries. Paul is and ass who is simply trying to out due the the crazies ass's in his party who will be running in 2016. Paul is simply a moron, and anyone who thinks this dip shit should be president is also a moron, and that goes for Paulbots on this board, and yes they real are posting here, contrary to those who want to deny it!

[Tsiyu]

2. IOKIYAR

It's considered patriotic to act in treasonous ways toward the president, for political and racial reasons, if you're Republican or Libertarian or at all Teabaggy.

Paul did violate the Logan Act if he attempted to influence policy with Guatemalan leaders. Not only that, Rand Paul is a dangerous traitor to security, seeking to ramp up hatred in a foreign nation for our duly elected head of state.

He should be considered a terrorist, too, since he seems to be obfuscating the crimes of, thus aiding and abetting the actions of, the violent terrorists in Guatemala.

Put him in Guantanamo, since he hates America so much.

sort of

[babylonsister]

7. IOKIYAR, not anymore. It sucks! nt

[AZ Progressive]

3. Umm, your not completely right

"As a substantive matter, the senator’s position is tough to defend or even understand. President Obama didn’t sign the 2008 human-trafficking measure into law; he didn’t create awful conditions in Central American countries; and he didn’t encourage anyone to lie to desperate families about what would happen to their children. If there’s a coherent explanation for why the White House to blame, it’s hiding well."

The Obama Administration supported the coup against the democratically elected president of Honduras, Manuel Zelaya. Ever since, there has been basically lawlessness in Honduras and where gangs even control the government.

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/17/us_turns_back_on_child_migrants

"We’re joined right now by Dana Frank, professor of history at the University of California, Santa Cruz, an expert on human rights and U.S. policy in Honduras. She recently authored a piece titled "Who’s Responsible for the Flight of Honduran Children?" And in February, her article, "The Thugocracy Next Door," appeared in Politico magazine."

"DANA FRANK: Yeah, I think, you know, we keep hearing the fact that people are fleeing gangs and violence, but there hasn’t been an analysis or discussion of why is there so much gang activity and violence in Honduras. And the answer is this tremendous criminality that the 2009 military coup opened the door to when it overthrew the democratically elected president, Manuel Zelaya. The coup, of course, itself was a criminal act, and it really opened the door for this spectacular corruption of the police and up-and-down, top-to-bottom of the government. And that, in turn, means it’s possible to kill anybody you want, practically, and nothing will happen to you. It’s widely documented that the police are overwhelmingly corrupt. Even a government official charged with cleaning up the police admitted last fall that 70 percent of the Honduran police are beyond saving. And you heard the woman, Ms. Cordova, say that the police themselves are tied in with organized crime and drug traffickers. So, when we talk about this violence, it’s really important to understand there’s almost no functioning criminal justice system and no political will at the top to do anything about this."


"MANUEL ZELAYA: [translated] The U.S. State Department has always denied, and they continue to deny, any ties with the coup d’état. Nevertheless, all of the proof incriminates the U.S. government. And all of the actions that were taken by the de facto regime, or the golpista regime, which are those who carried out the coup, and it is to make favor of the industrial policies and the military policies and the financial policies of the United States in Honduras."

See the link for the full explanation of how the U.S. was likely involved in the 2009 coup, as well as how it continued to support the regime to this day.

[babylonsister]

8. No one should be trashing a Prez overseas. PERIOD. nt

[Cha]

4. Fucking Rand Paul.. Brietbart asshole.

“I told him, frankly, that I didn’t think the problem was in Guatemala City, but that the problem was in the White House in our country, and that the mess we’ve got at the border is frankly because of the White House’s policies,” Paul told Brietbart News in an article published Thursday."



mahalo babylonsistah

[Andy823]

5. Sometimes?

I think the vast majority of things this asshole says are "lies". I wouldn't believe one thing his says. He is just another right wing libertarian conman who lies through his teeth in order to try and rally the idiots that are dumb enough to voter for him because they are to stupid to think for themselves, or check out the crap that spews for Rand's mouth!

[Cha]

6. He's lyin' again, of course.. Rand Paul couldn't exactly say.. "I spread misinformation 100% of the

time.. 'cause that Works with these idiots".

[babylonsister]

9. Exactly right, Cha, and the fact he's getting away

with it is making me very angry. Enough of their BS!

[Cha]

10. KICK! :( I hear ya, babylonsistah~