Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus has Down's syndrome

[yortsed snacilbuper]

Richard Dawkins: 'immoral' not to abort if foetus http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/aug/21/richard-dawkins-immoral-not-to-abort-a-downs-syndrome-foetus

The scientist Richard Dawkins has become embroiled in another Twitter row, claiming it would be “immoral” to carry on with a pregnancy if the mother knew the foetus had Down’s syndrome.

The British author made the comment in response to another user who said she would be faced with “a real ethical dilemma” if she became pregnant and learned that the baby would be born with the disorder.

Dawkins tweeted: “Abort it and try again. It would be immoral to bring it into the world if you have the choice.”

He faced a backlash for his comment, with one mother, who has a child with the genetic condition, saying: “I would fight till my last breath for the life of my son. No dilemma.”

[Iron Man]

1. He's not wrong.

See discussion here:http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5420473

[Crunchy Frog]

16. He's not right either.

It's not his place to judge the morality of other people's reproductive choices.

If anyone on DU pronounced abortion to be an "immoral" choice, they would be raked over the coals. I don't see this pronouncement of Dawkins' as being any different.

[Iron Man]

18. It's his opinion.

And it's a good one.

It's not like it's the law of the land or anything.

[Crunchy Frog]

20. It's also some people's "opinion" that having an abortion is immoral.

And yet if they posted that "opinion" on this board, it would almost certainly be hidden, and their posting privileges would likely be revoked.

I hold all people who make moral judgments about women's reproductive choices to the same standards. Those who scold women about not having abortions are no different in essence from religious fundies who scold women for having abortions.

Do you also think his opinion on "mild pedophilia" is a good one?

http://www.salon.com/2013/09/10/richard_dawkins_defends_mild_pedophilia_says_it_does_not_cause_lasting_harm/

[Iron Man]

22. His opinion about mild pedophilia has nothing to do with this.

[NCTraveler]

2. Dawkins is smart most of the time.

Completely ignorant here. Go push your moralistic bullshit somewhere else Dawkins.

[Horse with no Name]

3. I'm sorry. I support CHOICE...not abortion

If a woman wants or needs an abortion, get one. No questions asked.
If a woman wants to have a child, any child, have it. No questions asked.

I will stand to support reproductive choice and anyone who wants to shove their moral values or opinion in my face should be ready to be backed down. Not my body, not my choice. End of story.

[arcane1]

7. That's how I'm interpreting his remarks: this would be his choice.

[GeorgeGist]

8. Immorality has something to do with it ...

Per Prof. Dawkins. I think he's exhibiting his ignorance.

[Warren Stupidity]

14. So you don't support abortions?

I'm confused. Help me out on how you can support "choice" and not support abortions.

[Horse with no Name]

15. I support a woman's right to have abortions if that is her choice. I support a woman's right to have

a child if that is her choice.

I am NOT pro-abortion--I am pro CHOICE. I think I am confusing you...lol.

[Nye Bevan]

4. How about if the fetus has a cleft palate? A club foot?

I wonder what medical problems the fetus can have where Dawkins would find it morally acceptable not to have an abortion?

[Arkansas Granny]

5. In this discussion, and all other discussions regarding abortion, it all comes down to choice.

I would probably choose to abort, but I can't make that decision for any other mother.

[hifiguy]

6. I agree with Dawkins though

I would phrase it "most unwise" rather than immoral. And I am diagnosed on the autism spectrum as Asperger's FWIW.

[dangin]

9. Johns Hopkins

There is a video from the 60s from Johns Hopkins where a family are surprised with a downs child at birth. They didn't know. They left it in the nursery to die. The nurses were under orders to not feed it or give it fluids.

A medical ethicist I used to know was a resident or fellow there then and appears in the film.

Aborting it would clearly be preferable to that. My thing with Dawkins is. How can we predict that we won't need those people for unknown challenges to our species. What if downs makes them immune to a super bug? Etc. Who can predict which diversity is necessary. I'm for as much diversity as possible.

That said, my youngest had a brain cyst on one prenatal scan. It was only in one hemisphere and was gone at the next scan. ( very common in one hemisphere, when the cyst crosses over into both that is more dangerous) anyway, he's 20 months now and just great. But had that cyst indicated downs (through further screening) I'm sure we would have aborted.

This is how complex this issue is.

[arcane1]

10. Here he clarifies his tweet:

https://richarddawkins.net/2014/08/abortion-down-syndrome-an-apology-for-letting-slip-the-dogs-of-twitterwar/

-snip-

Here is what I would have said in my reply to this woman, given more than 140 characters:



“Obviously the choice would be yours. For what it’s worth, my own choice would be to abort the Down fetus and, assuming you want a baby at all, try again. Given a free choice of having an early abortion or deliberately bringing a Down child into the world, I think the moral and sensible choice would be to abort. And, indeed, that is what the great majority of women, in America and especially in Europe, actually do. I personally would go further and say that, if your morality is based, as mine is, on a desire to increase the sum of happiness and reduce suffering, the decision to deliberately give birth to a Down baby, when you have the choice to abort it early in the pregnancy, might actually be immoral from the point of view of the child’s own welfare. I agree that that personal opinion is contentious and needs to be argued further, possibly to be withdrawn. In any case, you would probably be condemning yourself as a mother (or yourselves as a couple) to a lifetime of caring for an adult with the needs of a child. Your child would probably have a short life expectancy but, if she did outlive you, you would have the worry of who would care for her after you are gone. No wonder most people choose abortion when offered the choice. Having said that, the choice would be entirely yours and I would never dream of trying to impose my views on you or anyone else.”

[vankuria]

17. Having worked with individuals with special needs

as well as having a nephew with special needs I would disagree with the "moral and sensible choice to abort" as well as using words like "immoral" and "condemning" to describe raising a child with special needs. I also question his conclusion that "most people choose to abort".

I can honestly say that the sweetest most genuine relationships I've ever had, have been with individuals that were not born "perfect". We are not all the same, some people learn on a different level than others, it doesn't mean there lives have no value and will only be a burden. My sweet nephew has a disability (something his parents knew before he was born) and while he'll need extra help to learn, he is also teaching us important life lessons, as well as teaching his older sister about being sensitive to others who need our help.

I'm not as good with words as most people are on DU, but having a child with special needs is not the end of the universe. While it's true you may need to provide more and plan for their future better, believe me, their lives do have value.

I would never condemn someone who chose an abortion rather than raise a child with a disability, but there certainly are families that rise to the occasion and I personally am in awe of them.

[arcane1]

19. Very well-said, and I agree

I think this comment is getting so much attention because he's famous for advocating atheism, and some assume that he's considered a guru for personal morality too.

[vankuria]

21. Thank-you arcane!

People with disabilities has been my life's work and now that we have a family member with special needs it's become personal.

[Warpy]

11. He said he is glad he doesn't have to make the ethical choice

The Guardian is cherry picking, shame on them.

[Warren Stupidity]

12. Do you think women make exactly this choice on a regular basis?

And do you support their right to do so?

[tkmorris]

13. Yeah? So?

If you think this somehow sullies Mr. Dawkin's reputation you are wrong, and you're trying too hard.