Lawrence O'Donnel: Its against the law for police to shoot at person in MO WHILE they're fleeing

[uponit7771]

...Can someone confirm this?

This to me should be the focus on this issue along with

1. No sign of struggle on Mike Browns body
2. Mike brown could have been shot FROM the back

...given by the pathologist


These pieces of information

[MohRokTah]

1. Tennessee v. Garner, 471 U.S. 1 (1985) eom

[mr_liberal]

2. It is if he thinks the suspect is dangerous.

Plus he probably didn't hit him from behind so he could argue that they were like warning shots. It coudl be that he will be charged with that though and the jury will have to decide if that was justified.

But I think the real question is going to be, were the last two shots to the head necessary, because I think Brown was going down at that point. I think he did move toward/run at the officer. The officer shot him several times in the right arm as he was advancing and Brown started to bend over but kept coming forward, then the cop shot him twice in the head as he came to within a couple feet of the cop.

if you shoot the suspect serveral times and he's bended over and seems like he's going down is it legal to shoot him in the head then? That is the question.

[nomorenomore08]

3. Seems like overkill no matter what. Even if the officer was attacked, which I have trouble believing

[mr_liberal]

5. It does seem like overkill but it may not be illegal.

Im convinced Brown was moving forward at the cop. I saw another witness interviewed tonight on CNN and he said he saw Brown moving forward at least two steps as or just before he was shot in the head. He missed what came before which I think is when Brown started moving toward the cop and was being shot in the arm. You have to wonder how fast he was moving too.

also I heard tonight a witness said he/she heard Brown say Ok ok ok... which if true means he was killed after he was giving up. He would have yelled that after he had been shot several times in the arm.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

4. Lawrence O'Donnell discussed that tonight

The witnesses describe Brown as stumbling forward a couple of paces after already getting hit four times, his body slumped forward in a crouch. No witness has yet described Brown as moving aggressively at the officer (supposedly).

[mr_liberal]

6. The cop says that and theres a video where

you can hear guys right after the shooting in the background saying that. I think that is why the cop opened fire.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

11. Where did the cop say that?

I wasn't aware he'd released a statement. As far as guys talking in the background, are you describing a video? I hadn't heard there was one with that background conversation. The cop's statement justifying the shooting is not the most reliable. It would be self-serving and biased in his favor. And I doubt he will ever take the stand and subject himself to cross-examination. Disinterested witnesses (unbiased, unknown to Brown with no axe to grind) will be the most credible.

[mr_liberal]

15. Ive heard several reporters on tv say that its been verified

that the person "Josie" that called into that radio show did accurately describe the cops story. She supposedly is a friend of the cops wife. Youre right it is not his direct statement though.

There's a video that has been played on the news where you can hear a guy saying Brown ran back at the cop and the cop was dumping his gun at him.

[MohRokTah]

17. It's only been reported on wingnut sites. eom

[mr_liberal]

24. Ive seen it on CNN. And I think the police have said that it is the cops story eom

[MohRokTah]

25. The cop has yet to offer a story.

Not once has the cop given any sort of a story.

There is no story from the cop.

[pinboy3niner]

32. It was purportedly a leak from inside or "close to" the investigation

CNN, for one, reported that those (unnamed) sources confirmed that Josie's version is what Wilson told investigators.

Very thin stuff, and very possibly entirely bogus. No identifiable sources and no independent, verifiable corroboration.

[MohRokTah]

33. And it leaves Wilson open to offer a complete;ly different story, too.

It's called a "trial balloon".

[pinboy3niner]

34. Unless he exercised his right to remain silent, his version is already a matter of record

Not public yet, but if he gave a statement, investigators have it.

They seem to be operating on a two-track defense:

1. His actions were justifiable to defend himself against a dangerous, charging suspect;

2. He was justified in firing at a fleeing suspect who was a suspected dangerous felon ("strongarm robbery" and felonious assault on a police officer).

It sounds like they're just trying to cover all the bases.

[RandiFan1290]

42. You are repeating rw bullshit

Please post a link, mr "liberal"

[leftynyc]

58. I've been watching CNN

and MSNBC religiously about this story and I've seen nothing like that. I haven't heard one witness say he was running towards the cop - just that he turned around. Perhaps you can post a link. Or I could just think you're full of shit.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

21. Josie's story has been discredited by the Ferguson police

Today the police released a statement (i believe through an interview with a newspaper) indicating that Wilson fired at least one shot at Brown while he was fleeing. Josie said that Brown turned on Wilson and taunted Wilson, saying that he wouldn't shoot (meaning that Wilson hadn't opened fire when Brown stopped and turned). Her facts don't match a critical part of the incident. Josie is a caller to a talk radio show. We don't know who she is. We can't vet any part of her story by following up with her, unlike the other witnesses who have come forward. Even if she actually is the friend of a friend of Wilson, a person would have to be really desperate to believe that Wilson acted in the right to give her story any serious consideration. Josie's story at best is pure hearsay and would not be allowed in any court of law as testimony.

[mr_liberal]

30. Brown supposedly said "what are you gonna do, shoot me"

Ive heard that a witness say that they heard him say that. Id have to Google it to try to find it. But I think that is possible because its not that Brown didn't think the cop wouldn't shoot, its that he didn't think the cop would shoot/kill him. The other shots missed and its possible Brown just though they were warning shots.

"Josie" did leave out the fact that the cop shot while Brown a fleeing though so she was trying to make the cop look as good as possible. I agree, we need the cops statement.

[MohRokTah]

37. The only account of that is from "Josie".

You seem very invested in making Mr. Brown out to be a thug.

[leftynyc]

59. Then start googling

The only person coming up with that story is that woman who claims she's a friend of the cop's wife. She's a fraud. Not one witness has said what you claim. Not one.

[BuelahWitch]

13. You are talking about what the cop's wife's friend said

That is not the same as a statement from Darren Wilson.

[mr_liberal]

16. I agree. And she left out important parts

like that he shot at Brown as he was fleeing. but i do think she was who she said she was and described in general what the cops statement will be.

[BuelahWitch]

19. She wasn't there, so not a valid witness

Until Wilson gives his own statement, "Josie's" interpretation is just more right wing BS.

[Vattel]

7. wrong

It's not enough to think that he is dangerous. There has to be probable cause to believe that he poses a significant threat of death or serious bodily harm. There is no way Wilson can say that.

[mr_liberal]

8. He can argue that Brown punched him in the face and went for his gun

I dont know if thats enough or not. Thats not when Brown was killed anyhow though so even if he was guilty the penalty for that may not be very severe.

[Vattel]

10. Why Brown punched him would be crucial to legally assessing Wilson's response.

[MohRokTah]

18. There is no evidence of a struggle from the autopsy.

Mr. Brown COULD NOT HAVE THROWN ANY PUNCH!

That is a physical impossibility after the autopsy.

[mr_liberal]

22. Theres no evidence of a stuggle on Browns body

The autopsy didn't examine the cops body. He went to the hospital. I think its very likely that he was punched in the face. Even Browns parents lawyer admit there was a struggle at the car. I Think Browns friend Dorian even admits that now.

[MohRokTah]

23. If he was punched in the face, there would be evidence on Mr. Brown's hand.

There was not as verified by the autopsy.

Take your talking points back to where ever you got them.

[mr_liberal]

26. I doubt there'd be evidence on his hand.

Early on right after the shooting they reported the cops face was swollen and he was taken to the hospital. if it wasn't from being punched then it happened somehow else during the struggle.

[MohRokTah]

27. IT certainly wasn't Michael Brown doing anything to him

There goes your hope of Brown being a threat justifying Wilson shooting at his as he is fleeing.

Tennessee v. Garner says when Wilson started shooting at him as he fled, everything from then on is a felony, thus killing him is murder one.

[Hooked_n_Looped]

43. I think you are missing a 'why' in your response.

If the police bring proof the Wilson had damage to his face, what will your answer be?

[MohRokTah]

49. It definitely wasn't Michael Brown that damaged his face.

The autopsy proves that.

[Hooked_n_Looped]

52. It is possible to prove that something happened...

It is far more difficult to prove the negative.

I suspect that the results of those autopsies are not quite as declarative as you think.

[MohRokTah]

54. "No sign of a struggle"

Direct quote.

Why are you so invested in the thugs fiction of Michael Brown?

[Hooked_n_Looped]

55. I don't think it's fair to refer to Brown as a thug...

You should self delete...

[MohRokTah]

56. You are the one thugifying Mr. Brown, you should self delete.

Educuate yourself

http://thegrio.com/2012/03/28/the-thug-ification-of-trayvon-martin-smear-campaign-distracts-from-the-case/

[Hooked_n_Looped]

57. I was talking about physical science and a bit of Law. ..

You were the only one to refer to Brown that way...

[MohRokTah]

63. You were ignoring the autopsy report to thugify Mr. Brown. eom

[Hooked_n_Looped]

66. I'm saying that the report is not as black and white as you think...

YMMV...

[MohRokTah]

67. "No signs of a struggle" eom

[Hooked_n_Looped]

68. Neat...

Let's see how that plays out within a legal framework.

[MohRokTah]

69. I see you continue to thugify. eom

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

29. Maybe Wilson got hit in the face with the car door as they struggled, if they struggled

Still if that's how he allegedly got injured, a car door is not a deadly weapon, especially after the unarmed man has fled. It doesn't justify being shot at with intent to kill.

[uponit7771]

40. To break a person orbital bones it would take great force, people who box don't break

... orbital bones on a regular bases

People who box MMA don't break orbital bones

It would take an extremely solid punch with great force to do so

The person with the orbital bone broken will start throwing up and suffer at the least a concussion

[pnwmom]

46. There should be evidence on the hand if he hit hard enough to break Wilson's eye socket,

as has been claimed by some of the rumors.

[bklyncowgirl]

47. That makes me think that it was the car door which hit Wilson.

Witnesses agree that Brown & Wilson had a physical confrontation of some sort at the car. If Wilson was coming out at him and Brown shoved the car door back in his face, that could do significant damage.

[seveneyes]

51. Maybe he slammed the door on his face?

Has that been ruled out?

[bettyellen]

9. I think this is why they started the "he was crazy/ on something" bullshit - and also the gun

grabbing/ charging stories, they have to paint him as a deranged mad man, or Wilson should be fucked.

[Vattel]

12. I think you nailed it.

[bettyellen]

14. If they make him crazy, then it's also easier for idiots to believe he turned around for no reason!

Notice that story came out after the tox results.

[mr_liberal]

20. Supposedly they have Browns finger prints on the cops gun

I dont know if that's true or not.

I think Brown ran at the cop because he didn't believe he would shoot. Theres suppose be a witness that heard Brown say "What are you going to do, shoot me." Its not Josie either its someone different.

[bettyellen]

28. LOL, gosh- where exactly did you read all those rumours?

Sounds like bullshit to me.

[mr_liberal]

31. Heard it on CNN tonight. eom

[bettyellen]

35. was their source more phone calls from unidnetified people who weren't there? who describe their

stories as "unbelievable!". LOL. What a pantload.

[mr_liberal]

36. It could be a pantload.

I know I heard it reported though. We'll have to wait to see if there are more stories on it tomorrow.

[MohRokTah]

38. Actually, no, CNN never reported anything like that.

I had CNN on all night.

Nothing like what you allege was ever reported on CNN.

You seem very invested in thugifying Mr. Brown.

[bettyellen]

39. I had my doubts, but after reporting on that call I figured maybe......

but thanks for correcting the record.

[nenagh]

41. Very big thanks...

for your post..

[pnwmom]

45. Let's pretend you are correct about the fingerprints. That would have happened

in the struggle in the car, not when Michael was shot, dozens of feet away from the vehicle.

[justiceischeap]

48. Let's pretend Browns prints are in the gun

With the way the FPD has been trying to smear Browns reputation, do you not think they would have released that information?

The Feds, IMO, would have because it would help calm tensions.

If this were in any way a provable good shoot, they would have released the info lickity split.

[Hooked_n_Looped]

53. I think it would have inflamed tensions...

... in the same way that the release of the video did.

Taken in the same way as an attempt to smear Brown before the investigation is complete.

[leftynyc]

61. And which right wing

piece of shit website did you read that fantasy on?

[pnwmom]

44. Police aren't supposed to shoot warning shots at fleeing suspects either. n/t

[seveneyes]

50. Sounds like they ruled out "Hands up, kneeling, shot in back"

Which is what started the whole uprising. Whomever made those claims in the beginning maybe should be charged for inciting riots.

[leftynyc]

62. That the shots didn't hit him

is completely different from the cop not shooting at him fleeing. You do understand that, right? The cops have admitted they shot at him fleeing. That the cop is a shitty shot is just another reason to take his badge away.

[seveneyes]

65. My point being those with an agenda will run with whatever hearsay bolsters their POV

Truth needs facts like mayhem needs rumors.

[Scuba]

60. Trolls here! Getcher trolls, right here!

This thread contains an amazing compilation if innuendo, rumors, fake reports and outright bullshit.

[Esse Quam Videri]

64. ^^^^^^ THIS ^^^^^^^^

Yes it does, yes it does.

[ladjf]

70. Their trick is to get the case wrapped up in a civil rights package,

making it very difficult to get a conviction. The main violation was a human rights crime. It appears that the cop simply murdered Brown.