St. Louis Cops Shoot and Kill Man Near Ferguson, Crowd Gathers

[joeybee12]

Two St. Louis city police officers shot and killed a black man who came within several feet of them brandishing a knife on Tuesday a few miles from the turbulent suburb of Ferguson, authorities said.

A crowd of at least 100 people quickly gathered at the scene. Some people chanted, “Hands up! Don’t shoot!” — the refrain from a week of protests over the police killing of Michael Brown, an unarmed black teenager, three miles away.

The man in the St. Louis shooting, 23, had taken energy drinks and a package of pastries from a nearby convenience store, Police Chief Sam Dotson told reporters. He said that the man was “acting erratically, walking back and forth, up and down the street.”

The chief said that the officers repeatedly ordered the man to drop the knife and drew their weapons after he did not drop it. The chief said the man told the police: “Shoot me now. Kill me now.”

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/michael-brown-shooting/st-louis-cops-shoot-kill-man-near-ferguson-crowd-gathers-n184216

I guess shoot to kill is better than shoot to disarm...let's face it, cops aren't even trained properly in use of guns, and we give them fucking military equipment.

[AngryAmish]

1. It is like Jim Crow all over again....

[ncjustice80]

4. just wow

They shot a guy with a knife? I thought they at least had tazers. What kind of weak police officera do we we breed in America that TWO of them cant even handle one person with a knife. At a minimum, they could have just shot the knife or shot him in he arm. DISGUSTING RACIST PIGS >:#

[Action_Patrol]

8. ?

'Shot the knife'? Are you serious?

How is this racism? Do you know what the cops looked like? I don't.

[ncjustice80]

12. B/c

They SHOT and MURDERED a black man down who didnt even have a gun. They could have shot to disarm, shot to immobilize, tazed him, or just be ACTUAL heroes and taken the knife away. There were TWO of them- they should be charged with murder just like Darren Wilson

[Action_Patrol]

13. ...

You watch way too many movies. If this man did as the reports are saying, it sounds like suicide by cop. If someone has a knife and charge you with it, what 'hero' are you expecting? I'm sorry but it isn't anyone's job to be stabbed by anyone. Mental illness or not.
They don't 'shoot to disarm'. What kind of magical device do you know of that can do this? Ignited gunpowder launching a projectile at a moving object isn't as precise as you are giving it credit for.

[MohRokTah]

10. You watch too much TV and too many movies.

Nobody would be able to "shoot the knife" or "shoot him in the arm".

Proper training is when a direct threat to your life is imminent, you pull your weapon and fire at center of mass. In most cases, this results in death.

The knife wielder was within 3-5 feet of the officers and still coming towards them.

This was most likely suicide by cop.

[rustydog]

23. They might not have had tasers. If you do not have the distance when you discharge the taser,

you don't get the needed probe separation and you do not get the "lock-up" required to drop the offender. All you have is pain compliance. like a stun gun. a lot of intense pain, but you can still fight back.

Have you seen what a KNIFE will do to a human being? I would rather be shot than shredded and stabbed with an edged weapon.
If the person does not drop the weapon, the officer MUST shoot. Either a Taser or Firearm his life is in jeopardy.
If you don't think so, you've NEVER performed CPR on a stabbing victim, you.ve never assisted with a stabbing victim in the ER, you've never seen what a knife can do up close and personal. It is a deadly weapon.

[0rganism]

25. could have shot the knife? could you do that?

as i understand it, most people who receive firearms training including LEOs are taught to aim for a body shot because the body is a big relatively slow target. a knife, or even an arm, is going to be a much harder target to aim for. that much isn't racism.

however, there is a legitimate question to be raised regarding "less lethal" alternatives like bean bags and tazers. i'm sure cops in the area have plenty of those on hand, so why not use those instead?

[madokie]

43. Actually if you do much shooting

a persons eye to hand coordination gets pretty good. I know from experience from when I was in a war and had to stay proficient with a weapon how good you can get. do you think that the guy who shot Osama bin laden aimed his weapon? No he did not, it was eye to hand coordination that put that bullet between Bin Laden's eyes.
I haven't had a weapon in my hands for years now, (40) at least but I guarantee you if the occasion was to arise to where I had to rely on that coordination it would still be there.

[trublu992]

5. Jim Crow was never really eradicated just subdued.

[MohRokTah]

11. Jim Crow grew up. He's now James Crow III, esquire. eom

[MohRokTah]

28. How many new names are you going to sign up under to have PPRed?

Go back to Stormfront.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

29. The 'law of attraction' sounds like homeopathic woo.

What other alchemical laws do you live by?

[randys1]

2. Perfect example here of why we MUST change our police depts radically.

This sounds like a mentally ill fellow who wanted to get shot, but we are suppose to be rational so we dont give him what he wants, we give him what he needs (Sorry Mick)


There are a variety of ways to disarm him without killing him first.

[Michigander_Life]

3. I suppose the officers should have let him stab each of them a few times first

Would have minimized the faux outrage.

There are many cases of police brutality and misconduct. The murder of Michael Brown is one such case. But to suggest that police never have justification for deadly force, or that all police involved killings are criminal, is simply laughable.

[markpkessinger]

6. What are tasers for . . .

. . . if not for a situation like this one?

[randome]

14. You think police walk around with tasers in their hands just in case they need them?

You think every police officer should have a gun and a taser on them at all times?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[markpkessinger]

15. I dunno . . .

. . . When a BART cop was tried for his shooting of Oscar Grant, he claimed at trial that he mistook his gun for his taser. So it isn't unheard of that an officer would be carrying both.

[randome]

17. I would think there would be more accidents, especially of suspects grabbing one or the other.

I could see taking away all guns and only issuing tasers but I doubt that's going to happen with the proliferation of weaponry in this country.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

31. No. I don't think police should have guns on them at all times.

That just encourages them to turn to lethal force more often.

[randome]

58. That's a fair point, IMO. I'd prefer it that way.

But I don't think it will work within today's gun culture.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]The truth doesn’t always set you free.
Sometimes it builds a bigger cage around the one you’re already in.[/center][/font][hr]

[cwydro]

22. If you come at a cop with a weapon,

you are in danger of being shot.

I cannot imagine that anyone does not know that.

Hey, if someone comes at me with a weapon, I will do anything I can to hurt you. I don't carry a gun.

Out on the farm where I have a rifle, yes, I would shoot anyone who tries to harm me or any of my animals.

Love to see you in a situation where someone is attacking you with a knife...

[ManiacJoe]

59. Tasers are for use against non-lethal force.

> What are tasers for if not for a situation like this one?

Lethal force (guns, knives, clubs) gets defended against with lethal force.

[arcane1]

9. You're in luck! Nobody is suggesting "that police never have justification for deadly force"

Celebrate!

They do, however, usually have more options than just killing someone. They taze 80-year-old grandmothers and 8-year-old girls, so obviously they can exercise other options.

[Kali]

7. what is the deal?

are tasers only for little kids and people in wheel chairs?

[etherealtruth]

38. ... and the elderly (don't forget the octogenarians)

I am only half "kidding"

[X_Digger]

16. 'shoot to disarm' is a bullshit hollywood myth.

Firing a gun is deadly force. You do not use it unless it's justified- to prevent imminent death or grave bodily harm.

You don't fire a gun to warn, you don't fire a gun to wound, you don't fire a gun to win an argument.

Shooting a person in the arm or leg can kill just as quickly as a center mass shot- femoral artery for $1,000 Alex..

And what if the trick shooting cop misses the guy's hand and hits a bystander. If that were you, would you take, "Sorry, I was aiming at his hand!" as a valid excuse and say, "No worries, mate!".. I thought not.

[joeybee12]

18. well thank god they have tasers...

So they don't have to use them, either.

[X_Digger]

20. Let me charge at you with a knife (let's start at 21 feet- 3 seconds lunge)

Let's see if my clothes will snag the taser barbs and allow me to stab you before you can reload your taser cartridge, k?

You willing to play the part of the cop?

[rustydog]

24. First of all, you need more distance sto safely draw, and fire at an oncoming bad-guy

If charged from a distance of 20 or 21 feet, the police officer will not have time to draw his/her
Firearm or Taser and place a shot center mass. The bad guy can cover that distance in a split second. If armed with a knife, the officer can be badly or fatally injured.

If the clothing snags the Taser barbs but you still have the separation needed to cause muscular lock-up, you will be doing the funky chicken (that is why the Taser puts out 50,000 volts.) If there is no separation, you have pain compliance only.

It still hurts like a son of a bitch, but you can fight through it, you don't have the muscular lock-up needed.

[X_Digger]

26. I was assuming taser already drawn, 21 feet to build up momentum.

A cop friend of mine relayed a story where a homeless guy with multiple layers of clothing who'd been assaulting another homeless person kept running with barbs embedded in his clothing- pulled the cartridge right out of the taser.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

32. A lot of criminals seem to have no trouble with

shooting below the waist to avoid attempted murder charges.

I would guess that the police are probably able to do the same, and tell him they can't risk allowing medical responders near him as long as he keeps the knife.

[X_Digger]

35. Criminals aren't criminals because they're smart.

If a cop unintentionally killed someone while trying to wound them (hitting the femoral artery, e.g.)-- you expect that there would be no charges? (After all, the cop didn't intend to kill him, right?)

Or if the cop misses the guy's leg and the ricochet kills someone else, is the cop just supposed to say, "But I was aiming for the guy's leg- my bad!", right?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

37. They seem to get to say 'my bad' all the time when they shoot bystanders.

So why should it be any different in this case?

[X_Digger]

39. Oh, well that makes it okay, then, right? *snort*

A firearm is not a less-than-lethal instrument. A firearm is not a tool to warn. You don't use a firearm to win an argument.

A firearm is lethal force.


Using lethal force has to be justified. Actually admitting that you didn't intend to apply lethal force when you discharged your instrument of lethal force is a good way to admit that you were unjustified in discharging your weapon.

Fucking hollywood bullshit.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

41. Which is why I've suggested on multiple occasions that regular police

shouldn't be carrying firearms. It merely encourages them to turn to lethal force.

[X_Digger]

44. They should happily sacrifice their lives to the common good, should lethal force be required.

After all, they're only cops.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

46. They can always work as day care providers

if they're so scared of being a cop that they need to have a gun to use all the time.

[X_Digger]

48. The folks who run *toward* the sound of gunfire?

The ones who subdue frequently violent offenders?

Those 'so scared' cops?

Next time you've got a violent armed felon breaking down your door, and you're on the phone with 911, you be sure to tell the operator that under no circumstances should the responding officer have a lethal weapon.

You'll be sure to do that, right?

Oh wait.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

50. You mean like Michael Brown?

Who, according to the police, ran, unarmed, towards the man shooting him six times?

And I've lived 45 years without a 'violent armed felon breaking down my door'. I suspect I'll die of old age without it ever happening.

[X_Digger]

51. Then you'll die a lucky person. But in my hypothetical, would you do as I suggested?

Or would you be shaking like a leaf with adrenaline, all sense of the passage of time distorted, your vision narrowed to a tunnel about 60 degrees of your normal FOV, your heartbeat pounding in your ears so loud you can barely hear the operator, screaming at the operator, "Where is the cop?!?"

And the person running *toward* your house? Oh.. a cop.

Typical.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

53. Probably pick up either

my battle axe or a sword. The few times I've had interactions with cops, they've been totally useless. No attempt to actually solve the crimes, simply telling me to 'be sure to lock my doors and windows'.

[X_Digger]

54. Oh, so *YOU* get to use lethal force to defend yourself, but not cops, eh? Hypocritical. n/t

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

55. I'm an SCA person. They're made of rattan.

It would be highly unlikely that I'd kill them with a rounded piece of bamboo.

But keep on throwing silly hypotheticals and jumping to conclusions. You're really good at it.

[X_Digger]

56. You never actually responded to my question. Would you direct the operator to have the responding..

.. cops unarmed? And be honest.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

57. So in your weird hypothetical, the police will actually come armed only

with non-lethal means if I ask them to? It gets more bizarre the more you press it.

But sure, I would if they gave me the option.

I have more faith in them than you do to actually stop criminals without lethal force.

[X_Digger]

60. Suuure you would.

May you never actually get into that kind of situation and have to find out.

But if you do, I expect you'll act quite differently. When the rubber meets the road, you'd want the man with a gun and uniform to save your ass from the bad man with the gun.

[linuxman]

19. Personally,

I would expect to be shot if I came at anyone with a knife, let alone a couple of cops, but hey, don't let the fact that the cops used justifiable force to save their lives distract anyone from the "He should have reasoned with him/tasered him (or are we against tasers this week?)/shot the knife out of his hand" babble.

Why should the police be expected to grapple with a man holding a knife, thereby endangering their own lives? The man made a decision and he paid for it. End of story.

[nomorenomore08]

40. And conflating this situation with that of Brown and Wilson only serves to make Wilson appear

less guilty of murder. Wilson shot an unarmed man who (in all likelihood) posed no real threat to him - can't say the same of the cop(s) in the OP (assuming their story is genuine, which it may not be).

[name not needed]

21. Shoot to disarm?

It's a guy with a knife lunging at a police officer, not some fucking cowboy movie.

[FSogol]

30. Shoot the knife out of his hand and then lasso the rascal. Happy trails to you....

[pintobean]

47. Yippie kai yay

mf.

[grasswire]

33. why is everyone here accepting the police story as genuine?

Let's wait for the evidence.

Was there a knife?

If my PD shot and killed a black man in SL today, I would be ginning up the excuse, pronto.

So let's see the statements of witnesses.

[nomorenomore08]

45. That is always a possibility, yes. And I'm less inclined now than ever, to trust the word

of the authorities.

[moriah]

34. This is one aspect to being a cop I do not envy -- suicide by cop.

It's a situation for tasers if the subject is far enough away, but waving a non-distance weapon and begging cops to kill you is a way some people suffering from depression decide to end their own lives.

For the officer, especially in the cases where the subject has brandished a firearm (that might be fake or unloaded), it has to be the worst thing in the world -- being forced to assist in a suicide. I still believe the majority of officers are not trigger-happy pigs (or at least I have to believe that) so I can't imagine a case where a cop would enjoy such a situation.

But expecting an officer to respond to a deadly weapon within range (a few feet) of them with non-lethal force, and especially expecting them to go against their training (which is to shoot to kill if they shoot at all, because they aren't supposed to shoot unless their life is threatened), is a little much.

[nomorenomore08]

52. Much as I tend to distrust and dislike authority figures - cops included - I have to agree with you.

Not to mention how the many corrupt, abusive (if not murderous) officers out there make things all the more difficult for those who are actually decent human beings trying to do their job.

[conservaphobe]

36. New details coming out:

He had a butter knife.

He dropped it after the first couple of shots and they kept shooting.

[pintobean]

42. Source?

[951-Riverside]

49. Just Standard Operating Proceedure

Fast forward to 4:19

Meanwhile in England...