The Mystery of the Malaysian Airlines Crash Over Ukraine

[Karmadillo]

This article provides a nice review of the various facts and various "facts" surrounding the crash. The author reviews the positions of the various parties involved and then tries to see where the evidence points. It's too bad US media has chosen the root root root for the home team approach as it appears the story is perhaps more complex than we have been led to believe. Note: If one is interested in this story, it's worth reading all the way through. My snippets don't do it justice.

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/25546-the-mystery-of-the-malaysian-airlines-crash-over-ukraine

The Mystery of the Malaysian Airlines Crash Over Ukraine
Thursday, 14 August 2014 00:00
By Zhuge Li, Truthout | Op-Ed



<edit>

My Opinion

<edit>

I can't imagine how untrained personnel could lock onto a target and hit it. It is known that most of the rebels are workers - miners, metal workers, etc. They are unlikely to have the necessary skills to manage a complex weapons system requiring special education and training.

At the same time, we are aware that Ukrainian military personnel do have the required skills. In 2001, Ukraine had the sad experience of shooting down a civilian aircraft by mistake. Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 from Israel to Russia was shot down over the Black Sea by a Ukrainian ground-to-air missile on October 4 of that year.

<edit>

We know that Russian satellite images show a Ukrainian Buk system positioned near the MH17 crash site, and Ukraine officials did not refute that.

In my opinion, a key question to ask about the plane disaster is who stands to gain by it? It is obvious that the crash brought huge benefits to one side of the conflict - the Ukrainian side. It is seeking international support to reverse an unfavorable military situation in the Donbas region of southeast Ukraine. Let us recall that the United States was able to persuade its European allies to introduce new sanctions against Russia only after the disaster occurred.

All this said, I do not wish to draw premature conclusions. I repeat, once again, we must wait for the outcome of the international investigation and resist the pressure to jump to hasty or biased conclusions.

more...

[Adsos Letter]

1. "...Ukrainian military personnel do have the required skills."

I'm willing to bet that among those pro-Russian fighters are some who were also previously "Ukrainian military personnel," at least at some point in their life. Perhaps quite recently.

I don't know whether they could have acquired the requisite skills during previous service. The Buk system has been around awhile, but I don't know how long Ukraine has had access to it.

EDIT: ...always proof-read...

[HooptieWagon]

30. Or ex-Soviet military.

IIRC that SAM system dates back to Soviet era. Quite possibly some rebels may have working knowledge of the system from service in Soviet Army.
And the rebels had already used the system to shoot down two Ukrainian military transports... surely the Ukraine govt didn't shoot down their own planes. Plus, the missile was launched from rebel-held territory (from radar data), and the missile-launchers were hustled across the border into Russia when it was realized they shot down a civilian aircraft. I think its a safe conclusion the rebels did it, either with or without help from Russians.

[Adsos Letter]

37. No doubt in my mind, and for the very reasons you outlined. n/t

[davidpdx]

2. Didn't you hear the US did it because they were trying to kill Putin

I mean the proof has been posted all over DU.

[sabrina 1]

3. I didn't hear that. I did hear the fact that his plane did fly over that area on the way to, or from

his trip to South America.

Looking at the murderous behavior of the Kiev Govt, nothing would surprise me.

They are beating each other up in their own House of Parliament, acting towards EACH OTHER no better than Third World dictators.

So sending bombs to force their own people to go along with ENSLAVEMENT TO THE IMF doesn't surprise me at all. They are thugs.

Same tactics we used in Iraq. Bomb them into submission, killing around one million people and STILL we can't force them to bend to OUR will.

Nor will this failed government. Already 'our guy Yatze' has resigned and the government has collapsed.

And here WE are again, supporting the thugs rather than protecting those beautiful innocent children from them. But then we had no qualms about murdering beautiful, innocent Iraqi children.

I don't believe a word that comes from that thuggish govt in Ukraine.

Last time we were all 'rah, rah' for Ukraine, it was the Orange Revolution. THAT didn't turn out too well either, it was followed, after OUR cameras left, by corruption and mayhem.

At least in the Southeastern part of the country they didn't go into the Western areas with bombs and other WMDs, killing their own people.

I tend to look at who is going out of their way to kill people, and I know which side I'M on. Ymmd.

The IMF is a criminal organization that enslaves entire nations with debt which they KNOW these countries will never repay. THEN they force these nations to repay their debt by auctioning off their National Assets at bargain basement prices, and their Wealthy Buddies come in and buy up nations, literally. It's line an invading army, very clever, moving across the world. First in Third World countries, then Second World, and the Big Prize, now in Europe. Have you seen Greece lately, or Ireland or Spain?

Anyone who wishes the IMF on any nation, must have a deep hatred for that unfortunate nation.

They kill innocent people every day which they are, but they will never get them to go alonq with selling their nation down the river.

[elias49]

32. Thank you. Well said.

The US has at least a hundred-year history of this kind of sh**. And we've had a hundred years to hone our skills. It sickens me, more-so because my grandchildren will probably inherit the same.
For some, there is nothing but power.
For some there is nothing but money.

[Adrahil]

44. OFFS... His flight path was not actually over Ukraine at all.

Last edited Tue Aug 19, 2014, 12:44 PM - Edit history (1)

The flight paths of the two planes crossed near Warsaw Poland and separated in time by over a half hour.

In the rush of some people to find a reason to blame somebody, anybody but their buddy Pootie-poot and the separatists for this tragedy, some people are letting their brains fall out.

[SidDithers]

4. Yup...

that's the fairy tale that RT was spinning immediately after the plane was shot down:

http://election.democraticunderground.com/10025252653

And now, formerly respected "journalist" Robert Parry has picked up the story and run with it. Even using the same graphic that RT used in their original story.

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/08/was-putin-targeted-for-mid-air-assassination/


And there are posters at DU who will defend this ridiculous conspiracy theory until the cows come home.

Sid

[davidpdx]

6. Oh, I know exactly who you are talking about

<---these people

[Octafish]

11. As opposed to those people who believe what they're told by corporate media, right?

They know a lot, certainly.

[davidpdx]

12. Truth hurt?

I certainly don't remember addressing you in my post, but it sounds like you want to make it personal.

If you want to believe the CT stories going around, hey knock yourself out. For instance I've seen no proof Putin's plane was flying over the area as some on DU have repeatedly claimed. They are jackass CT stories made up by people on the internet and then swallowed by people who are naive.

[zappaman]

13. Well, we know who did it...

[Octafish]

16. The BFEE is a handle for War Inc.

BFEE Scorecard



Bartcop coined the term "Bush Family Evil Empire" to denote the 60-year pre-eminence of one family in the formation of the political philosophy in the United States, that of the War Party. The first to do so to my knowledge on the World Wide Web, Bartcop chronicled their ascension to the top of the national security state by hook and by crook. At least three generations have held high national office, while also making big money off war and looting the public Treasury. The last president of the United States, a man who wasn't elected fair and square by any stretch of the imagination, actually said: "Money trumps peace" at a press conference. For some reason, not a single "journalist" had the guts to ask him what he meant by that.

Bartcop did. And We and Democracy are better for it.

What have you added to what we know about the traitors, war criminals, mass murderers, and gangsters that are the BFEE, zappaman?

[Octafish]

14. Not me.

Labels are tools of the propagandist. When good reporters get smeared, it affects what people learn. IMFO, people who denigrate others with a little tiny hat are acting in an undemocratic manner. If your interest is in truth, you'd be open to learning something new, even if it conflicts with what you previously knew or had learned.

[davidpdx]

15. You might go back to post #11 and reread what you wrote in your response to me

You did that for which you are criticizing others for. I guess it's a-ok for you to do so.

[Octafish]

17. No. Here's what I'm talking about...

People shut down discussion with labels, or in your case, an icon.

I disagreed with you and explained why, twice.

[zappaman]

20. Yeah.

Pretty much.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

29. Ok, so RT isn't 'corporate media'.

If you want to go the 'We can't trust the media' route, then you'd be a hypocrite to trust Russian media either. Whether they're 'corporate' or 'state-owned'. Like it or not, Russia has a much more 'skin in the game', so they're incentivized to push the appropriate propaganda.

In the west, 'corporate media' is incentivized by money first and foremost. It doesn't matter one bit to most corporate media who shot down the plane. The simple fact that it was shot down sells papers and glues eyes to tv channels.

[Octafish]

31. Excellent point.

All I would add is that RT gives airtime to important journalists ignored by US media, including Greg Palast.

This wasn't on RT, but it makes a good example of what Palast covers that is absent from US media since Nov. 22, 1963:

BTW: I never endorsed State Controlled Propaganda over Corporate State Controlled Propaganda. They both serve "authority" over democracy.

[joshcryer]

38. Reporters are not "corporate media."

They take classes, live in a career of reporting, try to write down the facts as best they can.

And all facts, as reported by everyday reporters, individuals, people with very good backgrounds, very good reporting backgrounds, point to a BUK shooting it down in rebel held territory by those aligned with the rebels. All facts.

It doesn't matter what the talking heads say, it doesn't matter what RT says or all the conspiracies pushed by the Kremlin.

[Octafish]

49. You're writing to one.

So, yes, I understand the profession.

What I object to are people who malign those interested in learning and sharing the truth.

[Adrahil]

45. Ah, I see....

Last edited Tue Aug 19, 2014, 12:39 PM - Edit history (1)

Any story you don't like can simply be dismissed as a, product of the "corporate media." That's very clever. It reminds me of the antics used by creationists who reject scientific evidence because the scientists are obviously biased. Both are narratives that allow you to believe any fuggin' nonsense you want and self-righteously justify it.

[Octafish]

50. No, that's not what I wrote.

And your auto-correct used "Arctics" instead of "antics."

[Adrahil]

52. Thanks for the suto-correct catch... now then, what DID you mean?

I've seen the "corporate owned media" meme used ad nauseum here to reject any story that might support a western view on events in Ukraine. So what did YOU mean?

[Octafish]

55. I object to people who malign those interested in learning and sharing the truth.

I don't care if it's RT or NYT. Here's a 2013 post on why I feel that way:

Wanna Know Why We the People Really Don't Know Squat?

Corporate McPravda owns the airwaves.



And Corporate Tee Vee is still where most Americans get most of their information, including their ideas about these two statues. Wonder what people would think were they to learn from the tee vee what pater and fils have really done with their power?

The Propaganda System That Has Helped Create a Permanent Overclass Is Over a Century in the Making

Pulling back the curtain on how intent the wealthiest Americans have been on establishing a propaganda tool to subvert democracy.

Wednesday, 17 April 2013 00:00
By Andrew Gavin Marshall, AlterNet | News Analysis

Where there is the possibility of democracy, there is the inevitability of elite insecurity. All through its history, democracy has been under a sustained attack by elite interests, political, economic, and cultural. There is a simple reason for this: democracy – as in true democracy – places power with people. In such circumstances, the few who hold power become threatened. With technological changes in modern history, with literacy and education, mass communication, organization and activism, elites have had to react to the changing nature of society – locally and globally.

From the late 19th century on, the “threats” to elite interests from the possibility of true democracy mobilized institutions, ideologies, and individuals in support of power. What began was a massive social engineering project with one objective: control. Through educational institutions, the social sciences, philanthropic foundations, public relations and advertising agencies, corporations, banks, and states, powerful interests sought to reform and protect their power from the potential of popular democracy.

SNIP...

The development of psychology, psychoanalysis, and other disciplines increasingly portrayed the “public” and the population as irrational beings incapable of making their own decisions. The premise was simple: if the population was driven by dangerous, irrational emotions, they needed to be kept out of power and ruled over by those who were driven by reason and rationality, naturally, those who were already in power.

The Princeton Radio Project, which began in the 1930s with Rockefeller Foundation funding, brought together many psychologists, social scientists, and “experts” armed with an interest in social control, mass communication, and propaganda. The Princeton Radio Project had a profound influence upon the development of a modern "democratic propaganda" in the United States and elsewhere in the industrialized world. It helped in establishing and nurturing the ideas, institutions, and individuals who would come to shape America’s “democratic propaganda” throughout the Cold War, a program fostered between the private corporations which own the media, advertising, marketing, and public relations industries, and the state itself.

CONTINUED...

http://truth-out.org/news/item/15784-the-propaganda-system-that-has-helped-create-a-permanent-overclass-is-over-a-century-in-the-making

Thankfully, to help spread light when the protectors of the First Amendment won't, Maria Galardin's TUC (Time of Useful Consciousness) Radio. The podcast helps explain how we got here and what we need to do to move forward, starting with putting the "Public" into Airwaves again:

Alex Carey: Corporations and Propaganda
The Attack on Democracy

The 20th century, said Carey, is marked by three historic developments: the growth of democracy via the expansion of the franchise, the growth of corporations, and the growth of propaganda to protect corporations from democracy. Carey wrote that the people of the US have been subjected to an unparalleled, expensive, 3/4 century long propaganda effort designed to expand corporate rights by undermining democracy and destroying the unions. And, in his manuscript, unpublished during his life time, he described that history, going back to World War I and ending with the Reagan era. Carey covers the little known role of the US Chamber of Commerce in the McCarthy witch hunts of post WWII and shows how the continued campaign against "Big Government" plays an important role in bringing Reagan to power.

John Pilger called Carey "a second Orwell", Noam Chomsky dedicated his book, Manufacturing Consent, to him. And even though TUC Radio runs our documentary based on Carey's manuscript at least every two years and draws a huge response each time, Alex Carey is still unknown.

Given today's spotlight on corporations that may change. It is not only the Occupy movement that inspired me to present this program again at this time. By an amazing historic coincidence Bill Moyers and Charlie Cray of Greenpeace have just added the missing chapter to Carey's analysis. Carey's manuscript ends in 1988 when he committed suicide. Moyers and Cray begin with 1971 and bring the corporate propaganda project up to date.

This is a fairly complex production with many voices, historic sound clips, and source material. The program has been used by writers and students of history and propaganda. Alex Carey: Taking the Risk out of Democracy, Corporate Propaganda VS Freedom and Liberty with a foreword by Noam Chomsky was published by the University of Illinois Press in 1995.

SOURCE: http://tucradio.org/new.html

If you find a moment, here's the first part (scroll down at the link for the second part) on Carey.

http://tucradio.org/AlexCarey_ONE.mp3

It's important for there to be more than a handful of companies providing "news." Democracy depends on it.

[Adrahil]

56. That's great, but....

... I find that many people "seeking the truth" are are seeking a particular brand of the truth. Around here, it seems many are willing to swallow what RT is feeding them while decrying the "corporate media." It seems to me, that the rather ridiculous narrative suggesting this was an attempt by Ukraine to shoot down Vladimir Putin's falls into the category of "goofy conspiracy theory" rather than a serious quest for the truth.

That said, I'm all for a having a large variety of news organizations, and a variety of viewpoints.

[Octafish]

60. Right. Lots of people on DU mock 'Conspiracy Theories.' I'm not one of them.

Here's a good example why:

Nixon approved hiring a Secret Service man who said he'd 'kill on command' to guard Ted Kennedy. You can hear Nixon and Haldeman discuss it, about 40 minutes into the HBO documentary "Nixon by Nixon." While I had read the part of the transcript available years ago, and wrote about it on DU, almost no one I know has heard anything about it.

Ted Kennedy survived Richard Nixon's Plots

By Don Fulsom

In September 1972, Nixon’s continued political fear, personal loathing, and jealously of Kennedy led him to plant a spy in Kennedy’s Secret Service detail.

The mole Nixon selected for the Kennedy camp was already being groomed. He was a former agent from his Nixon’s vice presidential detail, Robert Newbrand—a man so loyal he once pledged he would do anything—even kill—for Nixon.

The President was most interested in learning about the Sen. Kennedy’s sex life. He wanted, more than anything, stated Haldeman in The Ends of Power, to “catch (Kennedy) in the sack with one of his babes.”

In a recently transcribed tape of a September 8, 1972 talk among the President and aides Bob Haldeman and Alexander Butterfield, Nixon asks whether Secret Service chief James Rowley would appoint Newbrand to head Kennedy’s detail:

Haldeman: He's to assign Newbrand.

President Nixon: Does he understand that he's to do that?

Butterfield: He's effectively already done it. And we have a full force assigned, 40 men.

Haldeman: I told them to put a big detail on him (unclear).

President Nixon: A big detail is correct. One that can cover him around the clock, every place he goes. (Laughter obscures mixed voices.)

President Nixon: Right. No, that's really true. He has got to have the same coverage that we give the others, because we're concerned about security and we will not assume the responsibility unless we're with him all the time.

Haldeman: And Amanda Burden (one of Kennedy’s alleged girlfriends) can't be trusted. (Unclear.) You never know what she might do. (Unclear.)

Haldeman then assures the President that Newbrand “will do anything that I tell him to … He really will. And he has come to me twice and absolutely, sincerely said, "With what you've done for me and what the President's done for me, I just want you to know, if you want someone killed, if you want anything else done, any way, any direction …"

President Nixon: The thing that I (unclear) is this: We just might get lucky and catch this son-of-a-bitch and ruin him for '76.

Haldeman: That's right.

President Nixon: He doesn't know what he's really getting into. We're going to cover him, and we are not going to take "no" for an answer. He can't say "no." The Kennedys are arrogant as hell with these Secret Service. He says, "Fine," and (Newbrand) should pick the detail, too.

Toward the end of this conversation, Nixon exclaims that Newbrand’s spying “(is) going to be fun,” and Haldeman responds: “Newbrand will just love it.”

Nixon also had a surveillance tip for Haldeman for his spy-to-be: “I want you to tell Newbrand if you will that (unclear) because he's a Catholic, sort of play it, he was for Jack Kennedy all the time. Play up to Kennedy, that "I'm a great admirer of Jack Kennedy." He's a member of the Holy Name Society. He wears a St. Christopher (unclear).” Haldeman laughs heartily at the President’s curious advice.

Despite the enthusiasm of Nixon and Haldeman, Newbrand apparently never produced anything of great value. When this particular round of Nixon’s spying on Kennedy was uncovered in 1997, The Washington Post quoted Butterfield as saying periodic reports on Kennedy's activities were delivered to Haldeman, but that Butterfield did not think any potentially damaging information was ever dug up.

SOURCE:

http://surftofind.com/tedkennedy

Why does that matter? The Warren Commission, and the nation's mass media, never heard about the CIA-Mafia plots to kill Castro until the Church Committee in 1975. You'd think that would be a matter of concern to all Americans, especially considering how then-vice president Nixon was head of the "White House Action Team" that contacted the Mafia for murder.

This is the sort of information citizens of a democracy shouldn't have to search the Internet to learn. It should be taught in school, or at the least, discussed in the nation's mass media. I certainly think it's unfair for people -- especially those who consider themselves Democrats or democrats -- to label those interested in such subjects "Conspiracy Theorists."

[sabrina 1]

34. You mean those who believe anything our Corporate Media tells them?

[Adrahil]

53. Much better to just believe whatever Uncle Pootie would like you to believe, eh? NT

[sabrina 1]

54. Didn't you mean to say 'Uncle Saddam'?

I remember that old Right Wing attack on Democrats who DARED to disagree with US Policy in Iraq.

http://www.theage.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1050777397596_2003/04/25/dixie,0.jpg

It was a great response from the Dixie Chicks to the idiots who attacked them for DARING to have an opinion that their moronic critics did not approve of, regardless of how accurate it was.

Thanks for the trip down memory lane.

'Saddam's Angels'. Yes, a Right Wing talking point, now recycled for use apparently AGAIN against the Left.

But here, on DU?

So back to reality. What was the point you were making, I didn't see anything of substance at all in your response so have no clue what your position is.

[Adrahil]

57. Ah yes... shift and dodge.

Let's just say that your positions are all pretty predictable. I actually have no doubt you're sincere, but I think your critical thinking skills boil down to "anybody but America."

Now, I am NOT a my country right or wrong type. I strongly opposed the Iraq war, and am suspicious of foreign adventurism in general. But it goes both ways. And sometimes there are bad guys in the world worthy of opposing.

But on this issue? Simple facts available to anyone willing to look demonstrates that this is a goofy theory. Putin's plane crossed MH17's flight path near Warsaw, more than a half hour apart. Putin's flight never entered Ukrainian airspace and the heading was all wrong fro a flight to Moscow. There is ZERO chance this was an attempt on Putin's life.

[sabrina 1]

61. Another recycled right wing talking point against what they perceive as 'The dreaded Left'.

'Hate America Firsters'. Thanks, I generally didn't see these attacks on Democrats on DEMOCRATIC FORUMS, which is why we Dems signed up here and on other Dem Forums, to escape the stupidity of the Right where anytime a Dem had the gall to point out wrongdoing on the part of THEIR GOVERNMENT, (they never understood the difference between Country and Government, which I am shocked to see demonstrated right here on DU now) they were called Saddam lovers, Hate America firsters etc.

Nothing in the comments of anyone who resorts to this vile attack on Democrats, to accuse them, old McCarthy tactic, of 'hating America' has ANY validity after that.

Thanks for accusing me of hating this country.

I don't know you, but based on that, I'll take all of your opinions on anything from now on with all the seriousness they deserve.

[Adrahil]

63. I'm not even CLOSE to right wing. Heck, half my extended family won't talk to me....

... because I'm a Ted Cruz-hating Liberal.

I'm not an America Firster. But neither am I a "It's always America's fault" idiot.

You are free to reject my opinions. That's fine. I never thought you bothered to consider anything that conflicts with your pre-conceived narrative anyway, so no loss.

I will still point out when I think you're parroting the Kremlin's talking points, whatever your motivations. I can't look into your heart. I can just read what you post. And it paints a very clear picture IMO.

[Codeine]

5. That was not a "crash".

It was shot down. I contend that the use of the term " crash" is a deliberate attempt to sanitize the facts for propaganda purposes.

[reorg]

7. on behalf of a Malaysian, non-native English speaker

I sincerely apologize. I have also used the term "crash" for MH17, and didn't even know how sanitized my language was.

Please notify these guys also:

RECENT ACCIDENTS

A Boeing 777-200 airliner operating as Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, crashed about 40 miles east of Donetsk, Ukraine. The plane was 90 minutes into its flight, flying at 33,000 feet, when it was apparently hit by a surface to air missile. Debris was spread over a wide area. All 283 passengers and crew of 15 were killed. This is the 8th worst aviation disaster in aviation history.

http://www.planecrashinfo.com/recent.htm

Clearly, they are in need of your education, too!

[Cha]

8. Right, what's so hard about writing.. "The Mystery of the Malaysian Airlines Shot Down over

Ukraine"?

[Karmadillo]

9. If you get a chance to read the article, you'll see there's no attempt to sanitize

the facts. It does an excellent job of demonstrating the complexity of the issue and the need for a transparent, objective investigation to determine responsibility. It's unfortunate our government and media seem interested in sanitizing the facts to keep this from happening.

[randome]

10. In the middle of a freaking war zone?

I think the rebel leader who claimed credit for the missile hit is pretty good evidence. I think Putin giving heavy weaponry to inexperienced yahoos is pretty good evidence.

Even an idiot who has never shot an arrow might hit something.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]No squirrels were harmed in the making of this post. Yet.[/center][/font][hr]

[reorg]

18. wait, what you call "evidence"

Last edited Mon Aug 18, 2014, 05:08 PM - Edit history (1)

is mere assumption.

Assumption on the part of (the alleged audio of) the bragging "rebel leader" - talking about a shoot-down of a fighter plane.

Assumption on your part, fed by an overdose of Western propaganda: "Putin" giving heavy weaponry ... Hey, that's not proof, that's what all Western journalists are desperately TRYING to prove.

With little success. May I remind you of the recent attempts to "prove" it by way of a certain "mistranslation"?

And why would journalists write with excitement about - finally! - having watched an alleged Russian convoy crossing the border and being the FIRST witnesses of such ongoings? Turns out the "Russian convoy" vanishes from earth as quickly as it allegedly crossed the border, with no trace. And nothing documenting the alleged border crossing either.

So, guess as you might, but for proof you'll have to wait a little longer.

[randome]

22. Agree. All we have to go on so far from the war zone is what we see and hear.

But it doesn't need to be a 'mystery' unless some are trying to exonerate Putin in a strange attempt to paint the U.S. in a bad light.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Stop looking for heroes. BE one.[/center][/font][hr]

[reorg]

23. Well, thank you for agreeing that facts matter

Why you insist that Putin must be "exonerated" then is a mystery to me, though.

Nor is it clear to me who is "painting the US in a bad light". Are you perhaps referring to this statement in the article?

the United States was able to persuade its European allies to introduce new sanctions against Russia only after the disaster occurred

Happens to be true.

[joshcryer]

40. Huh? There are eyewitness accounts.

Dozens of people saw the BUK fire, dozens saw it leave the area, dozens saw it in the hands of the rebels. Geolocation tracked it to rebel territory. Basically this is denialist / creationist type of discussion, putting out "plausible" alternate scenarios, sowing doubt, uncertainty.

[reorg]

41. given your astute monitoring of social media accounts

whenever a war or reactionary coup needs bolstering from the voice of the people, it would't surprise me if you found video of someone who was able to mount the missile before it was shot at the plane and personally watched how it disintegrated in mid-air.

[joshcryer]

42. Ad hom.

Why do you question the reports of actual reporters on the ground who do it for a day job? Are they all liars / conspirators trying to fool the public?

[Nuclear Unicorn]

46. You'd think Occam's razor would have cut them to ribbons by now. nt

[joshcryer]

39. Reporters did that investigation.

All data, all of it, point to rebel's using a Buk to shoot it down. No speculation necessary.

Simply calling reporters, people whose day job it is to report on stuff, "corporate media" is shutting down their voice. It doesn't matter if they're with The Independent, VICE News, AP, Reuters, The Guardian, AFP, what matters is the reporting background of the reporter in question and their veracity at reporting.

We know for a fact that RT lies and in fact two reporters quit over their coverage of MH17 because it was so propagandist.

[Karmadillo]

47. All of it? Even the data released by the Russians and ignored by the corpse media? And if

the organizations you cite did investigations and are not just parrotting government handouts, please post links. I'd like to see the US spy satellite data and the Ukraine air controller communications with flight MH 17 that would be essential for any genuine investigation. I wasn't aware they had been obtained by the intrepid reporters upon which you're relying.

And is this an RT article? I thought it was copyrighted by Truthout.

[sabrina 1]

35. Funny how it went out of the news so quickly when some of the lies that were being told were

exposed. I read that the residents there had 'sent the black boxes to Russia' eg, saw a whole lot of people who actually believed that. The Western media should never be believed without absolute corroboration from reliable sources.

The black boxes were not sent to Russia, but then most rational people never did believe that considering the sources.

[reorg]

19. Vanishing point …

Vanishing point …
By Pepe Escobar

First, passenger airliner MH370 vanished from Planet Earth. Then MH370 vanished from the news cycle. First, MH17 was shot down by "Putin's missile" - as Planet Earth was told. Then MH17 vanished from the news cycle.

Where's Baudrillard when we need him? Had he been alive, the dervish of simulacra would have already deconstructed these two Malaysian planes as mirror images; from absolute vanishing to maximum exposure, then vanished again. They might as well have been abducted - and shot - by aliens. Now you seem them, now you don't.

Black boxes, data recorders - everything MH17 is now floating in a black void. The British are taking forever to analyze the data - and if they have already done so, they are not talking. It's as if they were singing, I see a black box / and I want it painted black … void.

The Pentagon, with 20-20 vision over Ukraine, knows what happened. Russian intelligence not only knows what happened but offered a tantalizing glimpse of it in an official presentation, dismissed by the "West". The best technical analyses point not to "Putin's missile" - a BUK - but to a combination of R-60 air-to-air missile and the auto-cannon of an Su-25. ...

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/CEN-02-150814.html

[elias49]

33. Yup. This ^^^.

You beat me to it, reorg

[Blue_Tires]

21. So...The piece is full of speculation, opinion, and unsourced "facts"

And you conveniently call it "a nice review of the various facts and various "facts" surrounding the crash"?

I also love writers who say they "do not wish to draw premature conclusions" immediately after writing a speculative, premature conclusion...

[reorg]

25. which speculative, premature conclusion

would that be?

He lists several reasons for being suspicious, but then concludes that he DOESN'T wish to draw premature conclusions and would rather wait for the results of an investigation.

Nothing wrong with that. Only someone with a closed mind would disagree with him.

[Blue_Tires]

27. uh..the one near the bottom under "opinion"?

According to Ukraine, rebels possessed one Buk launcher capable of shooting down airplanes, even at the height of 10,000 meters. As for the Buk anti-aircraft system, it is quite a complicated system. When fully installed, the system consists of four vehicles. It's hard to imagine how the launcher could "accidentally" lock onto a Boeing 777 passenger aircraft and shoot it down without guidance and targeting stations present and operational.

A friend of mine, an air defense officer, told me an interesting thing. The Buk launcher hitting range is about 30 to 40 kilometers. Militaries always use several missile launchers to destroy air targets, as at a high altitude and speed (about 900 kilometers per hour), an aircraft stays in the hitting area of one launcher for four to six minutes only.

I can't imagine how untrained personnel could lock onto a target and hit it. It is known that most of the rebels are workers - miners, metal workers, etc. They are unlikely to have the necessary skills to manage a complex weapons system requiring special education and training.

At the same time, we are aware that Ukrainian military personnel do have the required skills. In 2001, Ukraine had the sad experience of shooting down a civilian aircraft by mistake. Siberia Airlines Flight 1812 from Israel to Russia was shot down over the Black Sea by a Ukrainian ground-to-air missile on October 4 of that year.

Furthermore, Ukrainian air defense experts may have been directly involved in shooting at Russian military aircraft in the skies over Georgia in August 2008. The Ukraine government of the time supported Georgia in its brief war with Russia that month. That decision came under sharp, critical review in Ukraine afterward.

We know that Russian satellite images show a Ukrainian Buk system positioned near the MH17 crash site, and Ukraine officials did not refute that.

So...You say he ISN'T trying to draw premature conclusions, when he spends a sizable chunk of his piece explaining why the missile was fired by the Ukrainians and not the separatists...

I don't have enough hours in a day to point out all the ways he's playing fast-and-loose with his "facts" (and for the record, several of his "facts" are completely imaginary) including his unnamed, unquoted "air defence officer" friend and that's before I get to the question about why this name of "Zhuge Li" doesn't show up anywhere on google aside from this one truthout piece...

The mods need to start putting these MH-17 threads in the conspiracy forum until the Dutch release their prelim report, at least...I've grown tired of debunking the bullshit only to see it reposted the very next day...

[reorg]

28. He lists three reasons why it should not prematurely ruled out

that Ukrainian forces may have shot down that plane. In three short paragraphs.

And throwing some insults at an article published in a major Malaysian newspaper is not "debunking".

BTW, the Dutch report was already sent to Malaysia. It is not yet published, and will certainly not deal with these questions. That investigation only focuses on HOW the plane came down, not who was at the trigger.

[Blue_Tires]

48. And I "may" be able to flap my arms and fly to the moon

Somewhere along the line concepts like "possibility" and "plausibility" have to be accounted for...

And this isn't an "article", which implies the writer went to some real sources and got some independent input -- Even truthout files it under "opinion"

[reorg]

51. sorry, I was reading this article at the same time

Shameful neglect of evidence
By NILE BOWIE - 16 August 2014 @ 8:02 AM
The New Straits Times, Malaysia

Parry’s intelligence sources, speaking on condition of anonymity, claimed that the US intelligence community lacks any satellite imagery supporting the White House’s allegations of Russian involvement, and that the only surface-to-air missile system in that part of Ukraine appeared to be under the control of the Ukrainian military.

Neither Washington or Kiev have released images of a Buk missile system being transferred by Russia to rebel controlled areas of Ukraine, where several high-level Ukrainian officials allege it was fired from before being taken back into Russia.

The claims made by Parry’s US intelligence sources have been corroborated by military monitoring data made available by Russia’s Defence Ministry, which detected radiation from Kiev-controlled missile batteries at the time of the MH17 downing.

http://www.nst.com.my/node/23569

The New Straits Times has published a number of articles in a similar vein.

[Blue_Tires]

62. Oh, right...another sole unnamed "source" with no corroboration

and the writer still builds an entire story and narrative out of that house of cards...Just so you know, "Nile Bowie" is one of those Russia Today sycophants, and one way or another I can link almost every writer parroting this shit to Moscow, since that is where all the "alternate" theories are being born and disseminated through their network of toadies and useful idiots in the media...

I'll just bookmark this thread for now, and hope you eventually find some non-Putin apologist news sources to educate yourself on the issue...Sometime in the near future when the Dutch Safety Board releases their preliminary findings report (hopefully before October), we'll revisit the issue and see once and for all who is right...

[WinkyDink]

24. "Shoot-down," not "crash."

[reorg]

26. search "airlines crash"+"mh17"

and you'll discover that pretty much everybody disagrees.

[WinkyDink]

58. Disagrees that it was a shoot-down? Thinks "crash" is a synonym?

The crash occurs after the shoot-down, but it is not the cause of the plane's destruction, which is the implication when the term "crash" is used alone.

PanAm 103 crashed; but it would not have without having been blown up. Hence, it is called a "bombing," not a "crash."
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/back-lockerbie-bombing-gallery-1.9504
OTOH, UA 93 crashed.

I'm being a pedant only because of the lack of agency in the term "crash" that we ought not to forget with MH17.

[reorg]

59. sigh, disagrees with your labelling

Here are some headlines:

USA Today: Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 crash: What we know
Daily Mirror: Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash: Singapore Airlines flight was 'minutes' away
BBC: MH17 Malaysia plane crash in Ukraine: What we know
Daily Mail: MH17 Malaysia Airlines crash causes Tim Krul's summer to go from triumph to tragedy
The Guardian: Witnesses describe Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crash in eastern Ukraine
Vox Media: The Malaysia Airlines crash over Ukraine: what we know and don't know
Russia Today: Malaysia Airlines MH17 plane crash in Ukraine
Straits Times (Singapur): Malaysia Airlines MH17 crash: Victim's father, 93, dies of 'broken heart'
Global News (Canada): Malaysia Airlines Crash MH17
Mashable: Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 Crash in Ukraine
CBS News: Malaysia Airlines crash in Ukraine

Shall I continue?

I don't care why you are being a pedant. The title in the OP is using the common and perfectly apt description.

[Capt. Obvious]

36. CNN BREAKING NEWS

MICHAEL BROWN PUNCHED PILOT OF MALAYSIAN FLIGHT