I can't believe I have to say it. You can have prostitution be legal, but not child prostitution.

[Kurska]

To say otherwise is the most ridiculous meme I've ever seen. You can have a strictly enforced well regulated system of legal prostitution where prostitutes are licensed by the state and work in state owned or licensed brothels. Such a system by it's very nature excludes the possibility of human trafficking and child prostitution within the bounds of the law.

Yet recently whenever legalizing prostitution is brought up, such people are now being accused of supporting child sex slavery. This is asinine. Child sex slavery is a massive problem that deserves the attention of society, no doubt. But it is in fact FUELED by the underground and blackmarket nature of prostitution. No legalization of prostitution will make child sex slavery legal. In fact it'll make those people easier to go after as it will more firmly separate the market into good actors that can be left alone and bad actors that can be targeted with the full weight of legal power.

This is the exact think of the children anti-logic that has been used to prop up the drug war and attack homosexuals for decades. As a gay man, I remember when people were claiming that homosexuality is "absolutely linked" to pedophilia, just like how people are now claiming the same thing about prostitution. They point out the worst and darkest part of a subset of behaviors and then try to use it to represent the entire spectrum of it. You can't convince people that they don't have enough agency and control over their own body to say they want to perform a sexual act in exchange for money. Just like you can't convince people that they don't have a right to engage in consensual sexual activity with the same sex. So you have to pretend that such a situation isn't possible without child rape always being just slightly out of frame.

As human beings we're hardwired to be very concerned about children. Most people would dismiss out of hand the idea that A is "absolutely linked" to B, when you can demonstrate that A happens all the time without B ever entering the picture (there are legal brothels now that have zero child sex slaves working there). But if you throw the idea that children are being harmed into the discussion we let our intellectually defenses down. Know that when you do this you're being used and manipulated and ultimately you're not going to actually be helping any children. Be it with the war war on drugs, on gay rights or on prostitution.

[Adam051188]

1. you're stomping on the freedom of some innovative entrepreneur somewhere

who started a business trafficking children.

YOU'RE KILLING FREEDOM!!!!

[Kurska]

2. FREEEEEDUMB

[CBGLuthier]

3. I can't believe I have to say it

but these prostitution threads make DU suck. Every fucking one of them.

I love how men think it should be legal how, men think women should be able to sell themselves, how men keep going on and on and fucking on about it.

BTW, I am a man. more of a man than you prostitution legalizing people will ever be.

Give it a fucking rest.

[Kurska]

4. "men think women should be able to sell themselves" Not every prostitute is a woman.

But like always in these discussions, gays are ignored and forced to the side, because they don't fit the narrative.

FYI, you can filter this by keyword can't you? Or hide the thread?

[BainsBane]

9. What you don't understand is the only women's rights that matter

are those that make women sexually available. It's not a coincidence that some of the same people (and I am not referring to anyone in particular) who insisted the Hobby Lobby decision wasn't a big deal and women were whining unnecessarily love to champion "the rights of women" to provide sex on demand. The women's rights argument is a transparent ruse. I don't even think they believe it.

[laundry_queen]

43. That sentence needs to be repeated because it is SO true

What you don't understand is the only women's rights that matter are those that make women sexually available.

Definitely a theme here at DU.

[BrotherIvan]

44. Absolutely agree

It's very obvious. There are also quite a few anti-choicers thrown into this group as well.

[PasadenaTrudy]

18. No kidding...

I'm going to go trash the word "prostitution."

[brooklynite]

38. Manly you are indeed...

Personally, I'm the sort of man who believes a woman can decide what she wants to do on her own, and that insinuating that a woman couldn't possible WANT to work in the sex industry and therefore must be compelled, cajoled or otherwise forced to do so against her will is pretty patronizing.

[BainsBane]

5. We can all create imaginary scenarios

of what could be. So what? What matters is reality, what actually is.

I think it's clear what is happening is that people who prefer to substitute theory for an understanding of the reality of the sex trade because they don't like to be bothered to think about the lives of real human beings or anything that might get in the way of what they really care about: themselves.

People could just admit they don't care about children and teens or victims of human trafficking, but that would require being honest with themselves.

[Kurska]

8. The reality is enforced by the laws on the books.

The laws which make prostitution illegal.

The laws YOU are defending.

This is the exact same argument against Marijuana. "It causes so much violence in mexico, so if needs to be illegal!". "It only causes that violence, because you've created a blackmarket where anything goes by making it illegal" "Why do you love dead mexicans?"

It is ridiculous and no one is falling for it.

Especially when you say this

"People could just admit they don't care about children and teens or victims of human trafficking"

Intellectual bullying, nothing else, I hate to say it, but it is true.

[BainsBane]

16. i am really sick of human beings beings compared to stuff people buy

That people continue to equate people with objects says as lot.

The reality is what the evidence shows: legalizing prostitution increases human trafficking. You want to pretend otherwise. I can't stop you. But when you seek to use this forum as a way to justify self-deception, I do get to call you on it.

What you call intellectual bullying is reality. If people cared, they wouldn't continually deny the evidence and try to argue it doesn't exist, or that the existence of laws are enough to combat it. You don't like to hear the truth, so you accuse me of bullying. That really is your problem. I'm entirely comfortable with my views on the issue. I don't feel compelled to get others to validate them. My primary concerns are and always will be social justice and human rights, not what men of means feel is their right to buy. Others clearly have different priorities. I don't see commodification of anything, let alone human beings, as virtues. Capitalism is by nature exploitive.

I understand that current system doesn't work, and I am interested in alternatives that minimize harm. But continually pretending that part of the reality doesn't matter ensures increased exploitation and harm.

[Kurska]

21. Just like you don't own a violinist who you pay to play for you.

You don't own a prostitute you pay to have sex with you.

It is an silly argument that doesn't' hold snuff, but the beaten horse of it continues to get trotted out here every time this debate comes up.

[dsc]

40. the fact is every single commentator about the children who are currently flooding our boarder

has said that the reason they are doing so if because drug dealers are trying to force them to join gangs. So yes, drug trade has caused the enslavement of children.

[BainsBane]

42. That's a good point.

[redqueen]

6. Of course the brotthels dont hire underage employees

but the fact is traffickers will bring in humans to meet the demand of the men who want to rent children for sex.

And desperate runaways will be able to more easily turn to the life where there is a legal market for renting human beings to use for sex.

[Kurska]

10. A human trafficked individual will not get state licensing.

As they most likely won't have citizenship.

Even if they do have citizenship, funds from the taxes can be set up to create a compliance organization that makes sure all licensed prostitutes work out of their own free will.

Of course this system is much worse than a situation that continues to let all those problems run rampant anyways.

"B-B-but that system doesn't actually exist!"

And like always, the reason it doesn't is people fighting tooth and nail to keep prostitutes and their customers in jail.

[redqueen]

31. Who's fighting to keep prostitutes in jail? nt

[Kurska]

34. More "legal to sell, but not to buy" business?

Let be honest here, you know that is just silly.

[redqueen]

35. LOL yes, the most gender egalitarian, progressive societies in the world are so silly

they could learn a thing from the neoliberals! You're so totally right!

[Kurska]

37. Tell me of a single service that is legal to provide, but not to buy.

Or how such a system actually solves the problem or violence and abuse of prostitutes (it being illegal forces it undeground, it is still underground).

But again, it is more important we enforce morals, as opposed to actually changing anything for the better.

[Scootaloo]

30. Remember what i said on your thread in HOF?

How I said I wasn't going to name names?

Well... it looks like i don't have to name them

[redqueen]

32. Hahahaha... YES!

[LittleBlue]

7. You use logic in a debate fueled by emotion and religion

Shame on you!

[el_bryanto]

11. Yep those overly emotional feminists

When will they grow up and accept their place in society?

It's not like treating woman's bodies like property has ever caused any harm.

Bryant

[Kurska]

12. The ultimate irony, is you're the one telling women what they can do with their body.

Freedom is slavery and all that jazz.

[el_bryanto]

14. Well the freedom to be exploited and taken advantage of by a sexist society isn't actually the

world's best freedom.

Bryant

[Kurska]

15. So women DON'T have the agency to decide they want to perform a sex act for money.

You're saying no, you're not allowed. I won't allow you to do what I think it exploits you, even if you want to. I'll throw you in jail if you try to.



AND WHY ARE WE STILL PRETENDING MEN AREN'T EVER PROSTITUTES?

[el_bryanto]

17. Boy that throw up gif is great, isn't it? Much better than rational thought.

Say - what are the odds of the statutes regarding prostitution being overturned in the next decade? I'd place it at like 4-5% at the highest.

[Kurska]

20. I'd like an answer to my question.

Does a woman (or a man) have the agency to decide they would like to perform a sexual act in exchange for money?

[el_bryanto]

22. And if I answer yours, you'll answer mine?

There are laws that currently prohibit selling sex for money, so I guess the answer is no.

Bryant

[Kurska]

23. I'm not asking what the law says, I'm asking what you think.

You think that a woman (or man) who decides she'll perform a sexual act for money ought to land some of the participants in jail.

Or do you, that is what I want to know.

[el_bryanto]

25. Since I don't favor legalizing prostitution, the question answers itself doesn't it? nt

[Kurska]

26. And yet, you're the one claiming to stand for women's liberty.

The one who says that women aren't allowed to do X, for their own good.

Irony rules with an iron-y fist.

[el_bryanto]

27. Now are you going to answer my question?

And I don't know why you pretend not to understand my position - possibly you don't actually understand it?

Bryant

[Kurska]

28. I understand your "reasoning" what I'm talking about is the actual effect.

It has already happened in some places. Once all the people who feel a desperate need to control everyone's sexuality slowly dies off as they age, we might be in business.

Probably in my lifetime.

[LittleBlue]

19. "Her body, her choice

Oh we're talking about prostitution. Never mind what I said. I KNOW BEST"

[el_bryanto]

24. You should calm down a bit

I understand how eager you are to pay money for sex, but even if I get in board with this plan, it could still be a long time before it's possible.

But since the potential for abuse under the ham-handed way you intend to do it is too great, it's unlikely that you are going to get my support.

Bryant

[LittleBlue]

29. A woman can choose to die in war

She can choose to be experimented on medically. She can choose to kill herself with alcohol and tobacco.

She can even have sex for money, so long as it's filmed and distributed. But if it's not filmed and distributed, if she's having sex for money off camera, it's illegal. She can even engage in solicitation so long as it's not for money.

These inconsistencies are irreconcilable. And you tell me this debate isn't about emotion and biblical tradition?

I'm not asking for your support, it wouldn't matter what facts are presented. I'm here to argue against criminalization.

[el_bryanto]

33. You sound like those guys who are argue that Unions are exploitative

Because workers can decide whether or not they want to work and can negotiated what's fair

Except that was unions have gone away, we see that workers have less and less rights. Once you commodify a woman's body further, well someone will make a lot of money off of it -but I don't think it will be the woman who are renting their bodies.

Bryant

[LittleBlue]

36. That's strange. I've been posting articles showing that sex workers unions

support legalization. It isn't me who has a problem with unions.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/sex-workers-like-new-zealand-law-not-canada-s-new-nordic-model-for-prostitution-1.2665431

[LittleBlue]

13. Piss poor strawman

Run along

[Ruby the Liberal]

39. Its the "what about the children" argument

Gay? Obviously a pedophile.

Gay marriage and/or adoption? Will "turn" the kids gay.

Legalize MMJ? But what about the children!??!11!

Well, the kids are actually being helped by CBD oil. Okay, legalize that - but no pain relief if you can get high from it! Because, the children...

Prostitution? That is the gateway to child porn being legal and then child slavery.

Logic and stuff.

[Warren DeMontague]

41. Some invariably try to make consenting adult arguments about non-consent and non-adults

It's telling.