Topless Bar turns tables on Fundy Church, pickets during Sunday services:

[riqster]

Bloody genius: http://www.newarkadvocate.com/story/news/local/2014/08/10/topless-women-demonstrate-church/13864525/?sf29646077=%5B%271%27%5D

Exactly the right way to make the point. Fundagelical thumpers have been picketing the strip club for years now, so the owner and like-minded locals have decided turnabout is fair play.

About 30 dancers, other staff, family and friends from the Foxhole North either marched with protest signs or sat in chairs across from the church. Church members have been protesting the private gentlemen's club for nearly nine years. Two women were topless for about half of the four-hour protest.

After worship services ended, nine women exited the church and an argument ensued between them and the protestors. A couple of the church members also walked up and down the street with their own signs, declaring outrage at what they deemed was public indecency.

Pastor Bill Dunfee would not elaborate but said he is planning to directly confront the situation next Sunday starting with 9:30 a.m. Sunday school. Thomas George, who owns the Foxhole clubs in Warsaw and Zanesville, said his supporters plan to be at the church, with some of the women going topless, for the foreseeable future. "Next Sunday, those who hate me will hate me even more," Dunfee said.

Ohio law allows men and women to be topless in public, in case you didn't know.

Good on the club owner and his supporters!

[PeoViejo]

1. " topless in public"

Equal Protection Clause. Titties are Titties, no matter what the Gender.

[riqster]

2. Yep. A number of feminists found that loophole in the Ohio Revised Code and went to court.

The courts explicitly upheld the statute.

[The Straight Story]

3. They will be run out of town by the same women who hated Femen

Baring your breasts is a sexist Faux pas. It detracts from the message and turns women into just sex objects.

The church is probably right in this - these women should cover themselves. Getting paid to show body parts shouldn't be a choice females should have anymore than selling themselves for sex.

We progressives should back the church on this - strippers/topless dancers promote misogyny/patriarchy/etc and piss off baby jeebus.

[riqster]

8. Bollocks. The thumpers also promote patriarchy and misogyny.

They just do it differently.

[obxhead]

9. So controlling women and what they do with their own body is ok

in some circumstances?

[The Straight Story]

12. It always is, except in one case only

abortion. Your body/your choice then, and ONLY then choice applies. Outside of that, no one really believes in that mantra or choice. Control what women wear, if they can pose on magazine covers, charge people to look at their bodies nude, what type of sex they have (no bdsm/50 shades)/etc is up to others to approve (and shaming women who are models/prostitutes/read books we haven't read and don't like/etc is a worthy goal - it might save them from choices we don't approve of).

[DemocratSinceBirth]

14. The only difference between the Fundys and the faux progressives ...

imho, is the language they use to justify their desire to control others.

[riqster]

17. Damn skippy. Well said.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

44. Exactly!

Very well said!

[Plucketeer]

45. PERFECT! nt

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

31. Serious BS. Dunno how you can even think of yourself as progressive if you believe that.

You completely misunderstand pretty much everything. Women have agency. They do have the right to make their choices in all things, although, just like men, the choices they make might end up in harm to themselves or others. And those choices might reinforce dysfunctional societal values and patriarchical institutional sexism. What people protest is that women are actually NOT being allowed choice, but being *forced* or coerced into the things I assume you are being sarcastic about, whether through overt violence, intimidation, societal pressure, or economic distress.

[TheSarcastinator]

33. they know that -- they don't care

They are intentionally ignoring the role that poverty, coercion and control plays in even legal prostitution in order to justify their own selfish political agenda. This is why the vast majority of folks making the argument are men, with a few token "feminists" tossed in ala Fox News for good measure.

It's hard to get a man to understand something when his getting laid depends on not understanding it, to misquote Sinclair Lewis.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

34. Ah, ok, you got me with the lack of sarcasm emoticon as well. nt

[The Straight Story]

37. So....

And those choices might reinforce dysfunctional societal values and patriarchical institutional sexism.

Does that logic apply to abortion as well? Or when it comes to that choice do you suddenly trust women and that they will make the 'right' choice? Would you try to talk a woman out of getting an abortion because you think society is, in general, sexist and a woman wouldn't even think about having one were it not for the patriarchy?

"What people protest is that women are actually NOT being allowed choice, but being *forced* or coerced into the things"


Are women/men being forced to model, be in porn movies, read books, etc? If someone is being forced I am all for stopping that. Going back to the example of abortion - aren't women 'coerced' into getting one because of poverty, how society will treat them if they are single mothers, etc and so on? Why aren't the same people who are complaining about modeling/porn/bdsm in books/etc running about telling women that their choice of abortion is wrong a lot of the time because the reason a woman is having one might be because of bigger societal issues?

Suddenly there is a choice that is sacred and no one wants to bring up how it might be 'negative' - they don't go about shaming or educating women - but when it comes to other choices with their own bodies folks want to step in and 'educate' them.

None of those things are anyone's damned business. Personal choices are just that, personal.

When the whole dust up about the SI swimsuit cover went down here I went and followed the models that were on the cover (on twitter). Those ladies were proud of their hard work modeling over the years and making the cover. They were celebrating making it to 'the big time' in modeling. They worked hard on that shoot, got paid well. Here? Shame on them! They were coerced into posing and they harmed all women. They were barely dressed, real women don't dress like that and pose on beaches! We need to save them from themselves. If they had been rich and had had other opportunities they would have gotten doctorates in physics instead - no way they would make a choice to model - they were just too dumb to see that they didn't actually choose to model, they couldn't possibly 'want' to be in that profession. Not to mention ... people actually looked at them and made comments about how nice they looked. No woman would want that either.


I don't feel the need to run around trying to 'educate' women about their choices as though they were all ignorant and need saving.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

48. The argument that some men and women are "forced" into prostitution and pornography has merit.

Last edited Mon Aug 11, 2014, 01:38 PM - Edit history (1)

"Force" is an amorphous concept and force can take many forms, i.e., psychological, economic, physical, societal, et cetera.


For those that are in those activities and want to get out we should assist them. For those who like what they're doing, for any reason, we should leave them alone.

Sounds reasonable...

[redqueen]

54. If you find it reasonable why'd you put 'forced' in scare quotes? nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. To denote that force is an amorphous concept and takes many forms

My parents never hit me, thank God.

If they hit me when I did something wrong that would have been one use of force. If they withheld something I wanted for doing something wrong that would be another use of force.

Force is the power A uses to get B to do what he or she wants and can take many forms.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

49. The 'right' choice isn't always the 'right' choice for everyone.

What is 'right' for the individual at a given point in time might be 'wrong' for society. Or vice versa. And it's up to that individual to make their own balance and decide whether to place themselves or society first.

But as to Would you try to talk a woman out of getting an abortion because you think society is, in general, sexist and a woman wouldn't even think about having one were it not for the patriarchy?

No, I wouldn't, because the patriarchical position on abortion is that it shouldn't be allowed. So there's no way I would think that any women would be planning to get one 'were it not for the patriarchy'.

Are women/men being forced to model, be in porn movies, read books, etc?

Quite a few are being forced into being in pornography and prostitution, yes. As to 'read books' which really isn't equivalent with the others, generally not. The books people are 'forced to read' are generally not prurient, unless they're in a rather specific and unusual college course. You say you're all for 'stopping it' with regard to such force, but then presumably turn around and proclaim that we should take actions such as decriminalization that will actually increase the prevalence of such force, under the aegis of 'free choice'. If you truly want people to have 'free choice', the first thing to work towards are things like guaranteed minimum incomes to remove the economic force that most of the world labors under so that a tiny number around the world can become obscenely wealthy.

Suddenly there is a choice that is sacred and no one wants to bring up how it might be 'negative' - they don't go about shaming or educating women - but when it comes to other choices with their own bodies folks want to step in and 'educate' them.

If I'm understanding this part of your diatribe, you're once again complaining because people don't shame women for getting abortions and that people disdain the fact that anti-abortion people (the very ones who DO shame women who have abortions both before and after the fact) try to 'educate' women about abortions with medical nonsense that real doctors wouldn't dream of telling their patients without the interference of non-medically educated legislators.

I don't believe in 'shaming' anyone. It's counterproductive. You don't 'shame' people into losing weight, all you do is further erode their self-esteem by trying. But I do believe in education. And that includes allowing people information on the ways in which society has molded their views on various actions to support the privileges of the rich, the white, the male, the Christians. (This is not universal - in a majority Muslim country, for example, societal privilege is protected for Muslims, not for Christians.)

The very definition of 'ignorance' is not knowing something. If you don't know something, you ARE ignorant of it. And that's not a slur on you, just a statement of fact. And providing REAL information (not the twaddle and outright lies the anti-abortion folks push) has nothing to do with 'saving' anyone. It's about allowing those involved to actually have MORE choice in their actions. The more you know about the world, the more choices you have.

[hueymahl]

35. Are you being sarcastic?

Because I really don't follow your argument. Makes no sense to me.

[Vincardog]

69. So in your world it is Always OK to control every aspect of women's life

with the sole exception of their only choice being abortion?

I believe that is a load of
"That which is left in the trailer after you remove the bulls."

[Demit]

11. "Shouldn't be a choice females should have"? Did I read that right?

And who are you to take a woman's choice away?

Am I missing some verrry subtle sarcasm here?

[The Straight Story]

13. Yeah, you did

Old flame war sarcasm I do believe in and promote choice for women - and not just on one issue.

[riqster]

15. Try using the sarcasm smiley.

Nobody knows you're being sarcastic without it. Text does not convey paralinguals.

[msanthrope]

40. Well, I got it. nt

[Demit]

20. well, not being privy to those old tropes, it went right by me.

There's an internet meme, whose name I can't remember now, about posting in such perfect mimicry of what a troll would say that you fool everyone & they think you are a real troll.

You just did that, congrats.

[Eleanors38]

21. Ah, Straight's just pullin' your........... Leg.

[trumad]

22. Give it a rest...

It's got to get tiresome.

[The Straight Story]

23. Nah, thinking for myself never gets tiresome

Gets a little weird and crazy at times, but never tiresome.

[trumad]

24. Really though dude...

What is it with teh women and your attitude towards them.

Weird

[The Straight Story]

29. Pretty simple

I see women as intelligent and capable. I don't like treating them as though they need others to make choices for them - others though, seem to think women are victims in everything and need saving (a form of benevolent sexism I do believe). I don't see most women as constantly needing to be educated and shamed. They are not lost sheep needing shepherds to constantly herd them about.

Woman wants to be a model and wear a swimsuit on the cover of a magazine? Don't see the need to make her feel guilty about her choice. Don't see a need to try to shame her or 'educate' her and tell her that her choices are harming all women. If a woman enjoys fantasies and fictional novels that involve sexual fantasies - I don't think I need to play daddy and tell her that she should be reading a religious book instead.

I don't have a problem with women - I have a problem with controlling people who try to make everyone out to be stupid/misogynists/etc. It's arrogant and controlling and makes women out to be weak minded. You don't like the choices some people make, don't make them yourself. When you feel the need to be controlling and shaming I tend not to like that.

There is a big difference in discussing issues and wanting to force people into having less choices.

[cui bono]

59. No, you don't.

You think you do, or at least you want people to think you do, but it's clear by your insistence at objectifying women and your mocking posts towards women and on women's issues that you don't.

And you are putting forth a completely false argument in your last statement. Something I've seen from others who argue your same position. No one is taking anything away, they are trying to enlighten through discussion. If you don't understand what objectification of women is then you can go out and read about it and learn about it. But you don't need to keep posting in a mocking and insensitive manner towards the oppressed group. Do you do that with racism as well?

You are not fooling anyone. Well, maybe a couple people.

That's all I'm saying on this. I won't be replying any further. I just couldn't continue to read your posts and not say something.

[redqueen]

66. I just want to thank you

for saying something, for whatever it's worth.

[riqster]

26. Unclear posting and yanking other DUers' chains thereby can be tiresome.

To other DUers, anyway.

[JimDandy]

38. The message is: Women have the equal right to be topless

in public just like men, so they aren't detracting from the message...they are on point (no pun intended).

The interesting thing is, once women routinely go topless in public, and the public becomes desensitized to the display of breasts they will cease to think of women's breast as only sex objects. The topless bar could be on the way to putting itself out of business.

We women in the U.S. are fortunate that the body parts people pay to see, aren't the noses, arms, mouths, ears, legs, knees, stomach etc. that women in fundamentalist Islamic countries are forced to cover up.

If your post is sarcasm, mark it so, otherwise I put no credence in your including yourself as a progressive.

ETA: Ah I see...it's sarcasm on the prowl for a flame war.

[riqster]

43. Yep. Attention-seeking, thread-hijacking behavior.

Odd, given the source. I had a high opinion of that DUer prior to this thread.

[MadrasT]

57. WRONG and FAIL. I think Femen is fucking ridiculous.

And I think this is genius.

When Femen does it, the nudity has logical relationship to the protest.

This is an appropriate use of breast baring. It is right on target.

[redqueen]

58. Well said, thank you. nt

[riqster]

62. The church erected blue tarps to protect the eyes of the Worshippers.

[bhikkhu]

61. I think the point would be - get over it

A women's breasts shouldn't be someone else's political or moral property.

[notadmblnd]

70. Is this an attempt at humor?

A choice females shouldn't have. Hah

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. According to some at DU any form of adult entertainment is exploitative

According to the denizens of DU any form of adult entertainment is exploitative and consequently verboten. Therefore I reluctantly side with the fundamentalists.

[riqster]

6. The way to change the patriarchal paradigm is not by harassing the exploited parties.

Which is what the thumpers have been doing. That puts the onus in the wrong place.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. It goes back to when many on the religious right joined Andrea Dworkin's anti-porn battle.

Some times there is an odd congruence between folks on the far left and the far right. I have always maintained you can plot ideological points on a circle and not on a plane.

[riqster]

16. The political compass is a similar model.

[Xipe Totec]

5. Fundies go topless all the time - There's nothing above the neck. nt

[riqster]

7. Point.

[LannyDeVaney]

18. They probably knew most of the male congregation members by their first name already **

**

[riqster]

19. Oh yeah. I have worked in many a strip club, back when they hired bands.

And lots of churchy men showed up, I can assure you.

[redqueen]

25. Why is it almost always men who run the so-called "gentlemen's clubs"?

The leader of the statewide coalition of "show clubs" and "cabarets" - also a dude.

Just a curious thing about the sex industry - women do most of the labor, men keep the overwhelmingly larger percentage of the profits.



I like how the female pastor tried to tell the dude leading this fundie church he was fucking up. Of course he didn't listen.

[riqster]

30. Very true. The gender inequity and patriarchal exploitation are why I quit taking those gigs.

I gave up some steady money, but I feel a lot better about the gigs I do play.

[kas125]

46. I know a woman who owns and runs one.

[redqueen]

47. And I know a man who was sexually harassed at work.

The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'

[riqster]

50. " The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'"

[AgingAmerican]

64. Most of them have ties to organized crime

nt

[riqster]

65. I've heard that rumor before. Got any links?

Just wondering.

[AgingAmerican]

67. Yes

Strip clubs are the core of Organized Crime here in Seattle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_crime_family

Many mob controlled strip clubs are also heavily involved in sex trafficking.

[riqster]

68. Thanks.

[underpants]

27. Terrible angles on those photos

[redqueen]

28. Always a class act.

So tell me, do you still defend the phrase "throws like a girl" as not being sexist?

[underpants]

39. Um

you got me with that one

I'M A VICTIM!!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=105x2121208

Oh then there's this
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1627230

Hi redqueen!

[redqueen]

51. I'll take that as a yes. nt

[riqster]

52. If our society had any sense,

...the angle would be irrelevant.

[HooptieWagon]

32. LOL! Good for them!

It reminds me of a story from my youth. I was about 19, working in a boatyard. A co-worker that I was assigned to work together with often, was several years older. Nice guy, we got along fine, except he was what back then we called "Jesus Freaks"... and he constantly pressured me to go to church or attend a bible study group he hosted. My polite declines had no effect. Finally, I agreed to attend one of his study groups, provided he would then go to a strip club as my guest for an equal amount of time. LOL! That ended all religious conversation!

[riqster]

36. I was even sneakier. I went to their church...

And at the time, knew more bible than they did. I pointed out where they contradicted scripture, where they misquoted it, etc.

I was excluded from all prostletyzing thereafter.

[rustydog]

41. So, here's my question: If these topless people are sinners

and IF these topless people strutted their distain for God's law outside a House of God...Why didn't His Mighty Self smite them?
The Bible is full of smites, smotes and casts into Hell for those who show distain for the word of God...

[riqster]

42. I dunno, maybe God wants the churchies to have someone to cast stones at?

[underpants]

53. Maybe God's a regular

[riqster]

55. Well, if God is indeed omniscient and omnipresent, he'd have to be. nt

[BrotherIvan]

60. I think it's funny when men stand up strongly for women's rights

A woman's right to be topless or to be a prostitute. But talk about any other issue: crickets.

[riqster]

63. Very true.