What Drives Most Prostitution is Men.

[MineralMan]

Some men apparently believe that they must have sex with some other person. That creates a demand for people willing to have sex with those men. Since few people are willing to have sex with strangers on a casual, money is offered for sex. Some people are willing to have sex with strangers in exchange for money. Far more people are more or less forced to have sex with strangers, and the money goes to the person who is doing the forcing. Still, the entire industry is driven by men who insist that they must have sex with another person. Without that demand, there would be no need for prostitution.

From what I have been able to discover, it is a small minority of men who pay for sex with prostitutes. A poll here on DU seems to support that, with over 80% of those participating choosing the poll option indicated that they have not engaged in prostitution in any way. So, what is the answer to the very serious problems prostitution presents for society. Since the bulk of prostitutes are connected with someone who takes a large percentage of the fees, and since so many prostitutes are under the legal age of consent, I can see only one solution.

Make paying for sex the only illegal act. Make it far more expensive, in terms of money and possible punishment, to pay someone for sex. At some point, demand will decrease to near zero, as men realize that they should choose other alternatives to release whatever sexual tension or whatever else leads them to seek out prostitutes. The alternatives would not have the financial and criminal penalties of paying a prostitute or the prostitute's pimp to have sex.

Personally, I cannot even imagine what possible benefit I could get from paying for sex. I have never done so, and know that I never will. So, I do not understand what it is that causes some men to pay prostitutes for sex. I discovered the alternative solution in my very early teens.

I suggest we make illegal the act of paying someone for sex, with significant penalties. Prosecute those who do, and help those who are providing that sex to find other solutions in their lives. Where underaged people are engaging in prosecution, make the penalties for those who hire them even harsher and more costly.

Remove the demand through making it too costly in multiple ways to risk the penalties of paying for sex, and the demand will disappear, I believe.

[Duckhunter935]

1. I do not believe it will go away

The demand wil still be there and it will just go more underground, causing much more harm to the workers. Make it legal and inspected and it will help much more to get what you are looking for.

Europe is so far ahead of us on this.

[mythology]

6. People keep repeating this as though it's true

Germany legalized prostitution and human trafficking went up as a result and the working conditions for prostitutes went down as there was then more competition and so women got less money.

Please look at the available research before repeating this falsehood.

[anti partisan]

8. Did global human trafficking go up, or did human traffickers go to Germany instead of elsewhere?

This is a point that doesn't seem to be accounted for in the "available research" that I've seen.

[Squinch]

26. Do you really believe that open up large markets for trafficked people will not increase the

total numbers of trafficked people? Seriously? This seems to be the argument du jour against the available data, and it is absolutely ridiculous.

It also says, "Well, it might go up here in the US if we legalize, but not globally." So you are OK with trafficking going up in the US? Are you aware that when we speak of trafficking, we are talking about slavery, unimaginable abuse and usually death? You're OK with having a lot more of that in the US?

Asinine argument.

[anti partisan]

36. Yes I am OK with trafficking going up in one country if it decreases more in others

If you aren't for global decrease in trafficking, then YOU are the asinine one, sir. I am anti-trafficking and try to make my best judgments based on actual research which is applicable to the discussion, not something which focuses on a tangent which ignores the big picture. Sadly there is no research of that quality now. I don't have much of an opinion one way or the other as it stands - I do think women should be able to do as they please but that's about it. Maybe the criminalizing buying policy is the best - but there seems to be a general lack of evidence of any policy being superior to another.

[Squinch]

60. And what in god's name makes you think that if you open up the US for trafficking, trafficking will

decrease somewhere else? Where the hell is this argument coming from? You are not the first to have used it, but it is based on absolutely nothing.

There IS research available that tells us that if we legalize prostitution, trafficking increases. It is simply not true to say there is not.

What the hell is it about this subject that makes the supporters of legalization in the US, who are supporting increased human trafficking in the US, pull absolute nonsense out of their asses?

[redqueen]

65. It says so much about the left that this industry is treated so differently. nt

[Squinch]

70. I just can't believe the stuff I am reading! They all just pulled the idea out of the air that

increasing trafficking in the US will decrease it somewhere else. And that's about the third time I have seen that crap said as if it is true.

I think this is some new kind of insanity that comes from fear of loss of sexual entitlement.

[redqueen]

81. I agree.

The amount of trolls who show up in these discussions, all one one side, is kind of a clue.

[Scootaloo]

116. because knuckleheaded proponents have made it into a "Hip vs. Prude" argument

Rather than an argument based on human rights and ethical treatment of people.

So you're either "with it" or you're some "sex-controlling right-wing conservative, man."

The narrative revolves around false dichotomies like that. My favorite has been "It's just like drugs!" - yeah no it's not - I could, in theory, buy bud out of a vending machine. Weed doesn't care what i do with it. Smoke it, eat it, stuff it up my nose and pretend I have a giant wooger to nauseate my friends, whatever. It's not a person. And as it's not a person, it's inherently not comparable ot someone who is

[MineralMan]

119. +100!

[indivisibleman]

125. Great point

That needs to be repeated.
I have an ongoing discussion with a good friend on this and will be using this.

[7962]

133. Great point! Its happened to me here several times.

MAke a point that appears to be "uncool" and youre immediately a "right wing troll" or "strawman", etc. All kinds of cute little names but no basis.

And theres a HUGE difference between buying weed out of a machine and "buying" a woman! How do people not see that.

[anti partisan]

142. Truth is, I don't know

Maybe if there was a study that tried to focus on that, instead of the tired study cited by everyone which completely ignores that angle, then we would know. I understand that a study such as that would be difficult but I am all for increasing knowledge on a topic before rushing to judgments.

The research does NOT cover anything at a global level, only regionally, and I think it's safe to say that human trafficking is a GLOBAL issue!

[Squinch]

144. And you are just A-OK with increasing trafficking in the US because of this bullshit strawman

of "but globalization!!!1@!" that you think might justify legalization if unicorns sing Dixie and pigs fly.

[anti partisan]

168. I never said that

I only pointed out the pro-prohibition studies offer nothing useful with regards to leading us in the right direction for public policy.

You are putting words into my mouth.

[chervilant]

121. "...best judgments based on actual research which is applicable to the discussion..."

Last edited Sun Aug 10, 2014, 01:45 PM - Edit history (1)

Okay:

I suggest that you view this.

Also, visit this website.

I try not to respond with righteous anger, because you, too, have been raised in a society that attaches certain values to masculinity, including the value of having sex on demand. How sad for those among us who think that pornography and prostitution are necessary and 'good.'

[Nuclear Unicorn]

160. Why would that be Okay? Trafficking is trafficking is trafficking.

Would you find it more acceptable if your loved one was trafficked to country X instead of country Y? Would your loved one feel better about it?

[anti partisan]

169. It's not OK, but when presented with the choices of A) less trafficking and B) more trafficking

I will choose less trafficking 100% of the time, and I wish that we had the available information to know what policy to push for.

I am simply unconvinced that we have evidence to show one or the other policy is optimal at the moment. I want to fight back against trafficking AS HARD AS POSSIBLE.

[Nuclear Unicorn]

170. I'm assuming you mean well but whatever argument you're making is not well articulated.

Have you considered quitting while you're behind?

[ismnotwasm]

32. Up in Germany

Plus they had to start programs for women "who wanted "out" but had no no other skills. Legalizing prostitution is usually hot mess

http://www.examiner.com/article/german-s-legalized-prostitution-brought-more-exploitation-than-emancipation-to-women

http://s.telegraph.co.uk/graphics/projects/welcome-to-paradise/

[liberalmike27]

92. Never Used One

But I don't think it should be illegal. Like most self-victimizing, or victimless (whichever you choose, I don't care), making it illegal just creates more problems than it solves.

[chervilant]

135. Yet another fallacious argument, mike...

Why don't you try using the term 'victimless' in a room full of women and children who've been kidnapped and forced into prostitution a/o pornography? These are NOT victimless "whichever"!

[rickford66]

157. So, forced prostitution should be illegal.

Unforced prostitution should be considered business.

[chervilant]

165. So, you think it's harmless to pay for sex?

Please visit this OP.

Please view "The Bro Code" documentary.

I cannot see how paying for sex can be separated from subjugating women and children.

[rickford66]

166. I said "unforced"

What don't you understand about "consenting adults"? I pay a doctor to stick his finger up my rear end. I might enjoy it, but I don't. Would it be wrong if I did enjoy it?

[chervilant]

171. This red herring continues to reek...

I've said this once before today, but it bears repeating:

I've noted many DUers are opposed to the objectification of women. Many of us abhor sex-trafficking, rape porn, and any other "sex" trade that commodifies women and children, rendering them vulnerable to kidnapping, rape, disease and death. Most of us seek to change the patriarchy that perpetuates rigid and unrealistic gender expectations, including the "men are naturally in charge, and women need to suck it up and shut up!" attitude common among conservatives.

Not a single one of this group of DUers should be accused of opposing "consensual sex" for advocating for the rights of women and children. Not a single one.

BTW, I've had FBs multiple times in my life, arrangements that I (and my consensual partners) found mutually pleasurable. Sex between consenting adults is a wondrous thing. I would never seek to curtail that, just as I will never stop advocating for women's rights.

Please try to separate consensual sex from the myriad ways our patriarchy subjugates women and children--AND men. And stop crying "you oppose consensual sex!" whenever feminists address the ways prostitution and pornography degrade and endanger.

[A Little Weird]

17. I used to believe that legalizing/regulating prostitution was the answer

But it seems that it hasn't made it safer for women in areas where it's been tried. From what I've read (sorry I don't have links), human trafficking has actually increased in countries where prostitution has become legal. I think that may be due to increased demand - when it's legal, more men are willing to pay for sex.

If women (and some men) weren't forced by crushing poverty and lack of any real alternatives, I don't think you would find many who were willing to work as prostitutes. It's often kids who have run away from home, people with drug dependency, etc. that resort to this type of work. If you are making a decision out of desperation, is it really a truly free decision?

It's a complicated issue and I don't know what the answer is, but the OP makes sense to me.

[A Little Weird]

54. Really?

So prostitutes are not working for a living?? It seems like it would be really hard work to me. I agree that poverty forces people to make a lot of decisions they wouldn't make if they could afford a better alternative, but I really don't think that prostitution is "the easy way out" for anyone. Lifting people out of poverty is what we should focus on.

[conservaphobe]

68. It won't, because the demand is a result of biology, not culture.

Shaming people for wanting to have sex is way too conservative for my liking.

[jamzrockz]

111. I coulddn't agree more

There are 3 things that are innate to every human. Desire for sex, food and look out for danger or potential danger. Some people think they can rid the human spirit of one of them. This is no different from the folks trying to convert gays.

It will never work.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

153. Sorry, you're wrong.

Some people are born asexuals, with absolutely no interest in, or desire for, sex. They're not common, but they do exist.

But the argument isn't about desire for sex anyway. It's about whether or not commoditizing human beings and selling them for sex is a good idea for society.

[Scootaloo]

123. And there's these bullshit arguments

Is prostitution the only way to get access to sex? Of course it's not.

And it's not at all about "shaming people for wanting sex." That's a fine way for you to sidestep the actual argument at hand - that of ethical treatment of people.

[elehhhhna]

130. The Europe comparisons are not reasonable, here's why:

Using Holland as an example - they have a social safety net that means people can survive without resorting to prostitution. Yeah, we have welfare etc but it's not actually survivable. Women who chose prostitution in Holland have CHOICES that women in the US simply so not have.

Same goes for euthanasia - our lack of social/financial/medical care at a minimal level (as Holland has) causes people to have bad motives to die or pull the plug on Granny. In Holland it's only about quality of life - the financial devastation of a prolonged death doesn't become a factor in any way.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

2. Once adults reach the age of majority they have agency.

"Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign.".

-John Stuart Mill.

This doesn't, of course, countenance sex with minors. Those adults who do should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

[hedgehog]

25. But - the demand is for a young looking woman, which often translates

into actaul young women being turned out.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

33. If a adult man or woman wants to buy sex with young as in < 18 persons

If a adult man or woman wants to buy sex with a young person as in under eighteen they should be put in the hoosegow.

Once a person reaches the age of eighteen what he or her does with their body should be beyond the reach of the law as long as they aren't harming another person(s).

[nilram]

141. ditto. It takes two to tango.

The economic system in the US is tilted against women to some degree, but I disagree that that or market demand forces women into prostitution.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

143. I don't think anybody should be coerced into anything.

And I certainly don't think adults should be having sex with minors.

If adult men or women are engaged in prostitution out of economic necessity then I would argue society should provide other options. I suspect some who sell sex or drugs are aware of those options but find selling drugs and/or sex easier or more lucrative.

[treestar]

3. It amazes me there is anyone willing to risk their health like that

The women must be economically desperate. That's horrible and there should be a better social safety net.

The men have so many other options. Especially after the sexual revolution. If you can't get a woman without having to pay her, seek help.

[RKP5637]

7. Agree! It just seems so incredibly risky. I think there are something like about 25 STDs now. I

don't know ... maybe the risk drives some.

[treestar]

154. That's exactly it

All of those, and you don't know if a stranger is the next Ted Bundy, etc. Maybe it's thriving on the danger.

[jeff47]

35. The joke is they're not paying to get a woman.

They're paying for her to go away afterwards.

[taught_me_patience]

4. Nice satire

very well done!

[taught_me_patience]

12. Replace "drugs" for "prostitution" and re-read

the OP is a commentary on prohibition.

[Zambero]

39. Hence the world's oldest profession

The animal mating instinct coupled with a need for security and survival. And the economic factors of demand, supply, and even opportunism drive it further. Regardless of how one views prostitution, it will not be going away any time soon.

[MineralMan]

15. Not satire. I do post satire sometimes,

but I signal it pretty clearly.

[rug]

5. "Some men apparently believe that they must have sex with some other person."

Well then, no half measures, make sex illegal. That will solve it, apparently.

[MineralMan]

24. Most women who are prostitutes are not doing that on a

voluntary basis. Some are, certainly, but not most.

[MineralMan]

47. I specifically said "other people" rather than "women" in my OP.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. Lots of people are "coerced" into crappy jobs out of economic necessity.

Of course those who use the threat of force to coerce anybody into any form of labor should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

[redqueen]

66. Not all of those jobs carry the risk of them ending up with PTSD. nt

[DemocratSinceBirth]

72. Then we should outlaw jobs like the police and military where the incidence of PTSD

Then we should outlaw jobs like the police and military where the incidence of PTSD exceeds the incidence of those involved in sex work.

[redqueen]

79. That you rank the entitled attitude of men to have whatever kind of sex they wish alongside

defense and security says so much.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

85. I didn't denigrate the service of these brave men and women

I didn't denigrate the service of these brave men and women who wear our nation's and municipality's uniforms to protect us at great risk to their physical and emotional health.

Somebody else did.

"Over himself or herself ,over his or her own body and mind, the individual is sovereign, not Redqueen."

-John Stuart Mill

[redqueen]

95. What are you even talking about? I didn't denigrate them, I lambasted your idea

that entitled men who insist on being able to buy sex rank on the same level as far as necessity as having armed forces, or a police force.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

98. You implied that sex workers suffer the same incidence as do soldiers and policemen and policewomen.

I was just disabusing you of that notion.

Also, the paternalism that you want to exercise over men and women who want to sell their bodies for sex is no different than the paternalism that those who want to prohibit women from having abortions because they know what's better for them want to exercise.

But at least they do it under the guise of preserving human life.

[redqueen]

109. No I didn't. You inferred that on your own. And your sickening comparison stands.

As for your stupid "paternalism" quip, there's only one response:

[DemocratSinceBirth]

118. Your ad hominem is showing but I digress.

Is it or is it not paternalism to tell a fully emancipated adult what he or she can do with his or her own body?

[redqueen]

137. Do you know what "ad hominem" means?

Your 'but some women want to be prostitutes' enthusiasm is noted.

I'm more concerned with the less privileged women and children who suffer as a result of legalization, thanks. I'll leave you to be an advocate for the privileged few.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

138. Yes I know what an ad hominem attack is...

I'm glad you have the perspicacity to know the motivation of everybody else, including the motivation of your interlocutor. It must be nice to be a god or goddess...

As to your other point I have empathy for everybody in distress... I just don't want to increase the ranks of those in distress by adding consenting men and women who want to engage in sex for barter to their ranks by sending them to prison.

[ismnotwasm]

88. Are you seriously equating police and military PTSD

With the kind you get from prostitution?


Tell you what. Hit the streets, hit the websites, line up 10 tricks for a night. I'll go easy- Limit your sexual acts to fellatio. Just ten. See how you feel in the morning. Even easier-- If you are not bi-sexual, go for the gender of choice.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

91. I actually lived in the same home with someone who served in Korea and Viet Nam

His PTSD was genuine, debilitating, and scary, and this was forty years after he retired from active duty.

[ismnotwasm]

101. I'm actually an RN

Who has cared for hundreds of Vets-- many with PTSD. From many wars. I'm the mother of a decorated combat veteran, with mild PTSD. I'm also the mother other of another child who served 18 months in Iraq. My SIL is also a vet, was a sniper who served in at least 17 covert military actions around the world. He has more severe PTSD. So does his Dad-- a Vietnam vet, who is almost debilitated by it.

I'm also a surviver of the street. What prostitutes experience and what our military experience is similar allegory, certainly--but that is most disingenuous comparisons I've ever seen. And trust me-- the military won't appreciate it.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

112. My dad was a WW ll Vet.

I'm looking at his wallet sized Honorable Discharge that I have kept in my wallet as long as I can remember. Prior to being drafted he was a Golden Gloves boxer on the verge of turning pro. He took shrapnel to his right eye and contacted malaria during The Tunisian Campaign. He spent six months in Walter Reed and while they were able to cosmetically save his eye they couldn't save the sight in it. On his discharge it said his health was poor. They didn't talk about PTSD then.

I digress...

Whether you or I countenance what other consenting adults do with their own bodies is of no moment. Individuals are sovereign.

[MineralMan]

105. You consider it a privilege to have sex with strangers for money?

Really?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

42. Most people who work are not doing that on a

voluntary basis. Some are, certainly, but not most.

[MineralMan]

80. That is not the logical extension of my argument at all.

When I was 22 years old, the USAF decided, in its debatable wisdom, that I would be best used if they sent me to a small base in Turkey on the Black Sea. That I didn't think so was irrelevant to the USAF, so I found myself there for 15 months. With a total population of 600, that base was all male, and everyone there was there for the same 15 months, because it was considered a remote base. It wasn't a bad place to be, it turned out, and the usual military nonsense was minimal. The work was challenging and the time passed fairly quickly.

At that time, in the mid-1960s, prostitution in Turkey was legal and government-run brothels were to be found in every city of any size, including the one near that base. A small minority of the men stationed at the base used those brothels. They were a topic of conversation, as you'd expect. Most of those stationed there, however, did not visit those brothels. There were many reasons for not visiting them, and those reasons varied from person to person.

I was one of the people who did not visit them. I could have, but did not. My reason was that I found the idea of paying a stranger for sex unpleasant. I also knew that the women in those brothels were generally not there voluntarily. They were repaying debts of some kind, and were shunned by Turks, if they ventured out of the brothels.

Some men I knew did use those brothels. I never really understood the attraction, frankly. No sex with others for 15 months. I was not surprised that I survived that just fine. Imagine that...

[safeinOhio]

9. It is NOT a black and white issue.

It is very gray. Please watch these videos before judging this issue.

http://www.whitehands.jp/e.html

[davidn3600]

11. Yeah because making the punishment more severe has stopped every other crime

This type of philosophy is why we now have people in federal prison serving 50+ year sentences for marijuana. What has that done to reduce demand on the street? Nothing! Absolutely nothing! People are smoking and dealing pot on every street corner in America. It's not stopping demand. And now you have Obama and Holder looking to pardon a bunch of these people and coming to the realization that winning the war on drugs by trying to stop demand has failed.

We have more people in prison than any other nation in the world, by far. And now you want to expand that and give harsh prison sentences to consensual adults who have consensual sex?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. Don't give the OP any ideas

He might want to make the buying or selling of sex a capital offense.

[99Forever]

16. If this isn't satire...

... it's about some of them most convoluted finger-pointing claptrap I've ever read.

Good freaking grief.

[MineralMan]

19. My satirical posts all are sourced at:

http://www.newsyoushouldnotbelieve.com

That link does not appear in this OP.

[99Forever]

43. Well then...

... that's some seriously screwed up reasoning. Time to trash this thread.

[edhopper]

18. From what I understand,

it's blowjobs.

[MineralMan]

20. I see...nt

[edhopper]

28. Really,

I have read that the main reason married men go to prostitutes is because their wives don't give them bj's.

On the overall issue, I doubt you can ever end prostitution. I haven't formed a opinion of the legalization matter yet.

[MineralMan]

59. Content of this reply is deleted.

The poster I was replying to is no longer with us.

[ismnotwasm]

94. Do you really believe this?

Or are you being sarcastic. It's hard to tell on this topic

[delta17]

134. I think there is some truth to this.

When I was in the AF, there were a few guys who paid for sex on a semi-regular basis. They were all married. One of them told me he just got bored with sex with the same person. These guys always used the old "you pay them to leave" line.

Just to clarify, I always thought these guys were scummy.

[edhopper]

172. iI have read this from legitimate sources

Whether it's true, or rather what percentage of john's this is true for, I don't know.

[brooklynite]

21. What drives most sports leagues are men...

All we have to do is raise ticket prices and demand will disappear.

Oh, wait a minutes...

[Iggo]

22. That's already illegal and it hasn't removed the demand.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

27. Exactly. And law enforcement uses decoys disguised as buyers and sellers of sex to ensnare offenders

nt

[mokawanis]

23. The demand will disappear??

I don't think any penalty for drugs, prostitution, gambling, or other illicit activities will make them disappear. There have always been people willing to perform sex acts for money, and people willing to pay. Nothing is going to change that, and the approach you are advocating for will not work.

[Orrex]

29. We should outlaw the exchange of currency for ANY business transaction

Preposterous, I agree, but about as likely to succeed as bans on prostitution have been.

[hedgehog]

30. I think the best deterrent is to publish names.

Years ago, in Buffalo, there was a problem with drivers propositioning any African American woman they saw on Jefferson Avenue. The police claimed they could do nothing about it. The harassment stopped when local minsters stood out on the sidewalk with cameras.

[Shoulders of Giants]

151. Why does it matter to you if two consulting adults consent in acts that are none of your concern?

Why do people deserve to be publicly vilified for a victimless act?

[betsuni]

158. Or get Biggie Shorty to smack them around

Wanda Sykes in Pootie Tang, "Just cause a girl likes to dress fancy ..."

[jeff47]

31. Really? You think copying the drug war would lead to success?

Yeah, massive penalties really have driven demand for drugs to near zero.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. Prior to Lawrence V TX there was a man in a GA prison for performing oral sex on his wife.

Sex laws for consenting adults, yay!!!

[Rhinodawg]

38. SEX

[Douglas Carpenter]

40. I have this CRAZY mixed up idea that consenting adults should be free to do what they want to do

I reject they notion of tyranny in principle - even when it is tyranny against something I don't like.

[PowerToThePeople]

44. Disclaimer: this is an internet poll.

I would put zero weight to those poll numbers.

I know the "business" pretty well. I have worked in places where clients request additional services. I have known people offering up these services. I have put the two in contact. At one point in my sexual exploration even went out on calls for them, though I did it for fun, not cash.

It is much larger than anyone unfamiliar with it thinks. And many of the women are not in financial difficulty. Many were much better off than I was with a decent salaried job.

It is a difficult issue, but I truly do not think your "knowledge" or lack of knowledge on the subject matter gives your uneducated opinion any weight.

[The Straight Story]

46. The solution to all our problems: Build more prisons and put people in them

Eventually, everyone will be in a controlled environment where we can deny freedoms and choices.

Catch someone smoking? Jail - you can ban that choice there. Someone buys a gun? Jail. And it gets worse - someone bought a large, sugary drink? They might get diabetes, which means our health rates will go up. Jail them and limit them to bread and water.

Choices are sooooo yesterday. Want to have sex with someone for free? Can't do that, have to have a minimum wage, when you pay for it...jail.

Maybe some men are afraid of the power women have over their own bodies and don't want them to be able to work using their bodies and make money - so they make it illegal. Limit how and what they can do, control their bodies and choices. Very religious and controlling like, but then...some people prefer controlling others who might make choices they don't like.

We are the Borg. You will be assimilated for the good of us all, your individuality only serves to disrupt the collective and it's goals. You will not eat olive garden, only amish grown organic corn and well water to drink. You will comply or be locked down in a cell until your assimilation is completed. You may demand payment for other uses of your body - cleaning bathrooms, playing sports, etc, but if you do something unChristian and dirty, like sex, you shall only do such a thing for free.

[davidn3600]

50. America....Land of the Free!!!

5% of the world population but houses 25% of the world's prisoners.

[ismnotwasm]

53. Why women?

Why not men? There are plenty of male prostitutes. Why do we assume this is a woman's profession?

BTW-- how is discussionist, and is it worth going over there?

[The Straight Story]

61. A fair point

For me the idea stands regardless - your body, your choice. Given how the discussions here have, in general, referenced women I referenced women but you are correct in that it is a genderless choice of profession.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. There's a lot more coercive sex in the hoosegow than there is on the outside.

It's paradoxical that if the OP had his way he would be increasing the type of sex he hopes to eschew.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

49. Demand. We already know supply side economics is bogus.

Demand side economics is the reality of all transactions.

[MineralMan]

52. That is true, of course.

No demand; no sale.

[tritsofme]

55. So you think you can stamp out the world's oldest profession with modestly harsher punishments?

Prostitution is already illegal in most places, good luck. The trend should be toward consenting adults making their own decisions with their bodies and money.

[ismnotwasm]

64. The "world oldest profession"

(probably isn't, I suspect the story-tellers were)

Started out as religious ceremony-- nothing, and I mean nothing like what we see to day. With the the rise of patriartical religions, came the degradation and punishment of the prostitute. Every major religion has a cautionary tale involving a prostitute, a woman. Tiresome, all that fear of a woman's sexuality that it had to be commodified.

The problem is economic inequity. Along the poor, women are the poorest. Women are also taught shame of their sexuality, as are men, but they have societal permission to 'indulge' without being called names.

I find most people don't understand prostitution. They just make a bunch of assumptions it about or watch HBO shows on it and assume they are now experts and ignore any detrimental effects.

[LiberalLoner]

107. +1

[LadyHawkAZ]

56. There are parts of the world where the penalty for unmarried sex, paid or otherwise, is death.

People still do it.

Welcome to humanity.

[Gidney N Cloyd]

62. I'd argue but I can't help worrying that your humor is flying over my head.

[MineralMan]

63. No humor is intended. So argue away, if you like.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

69. Should it be a felony ? Should the three strike law apply?

What if the sex is in exchange for a dinner and a movie?

If your goal is to end sex you believe is involuntary, how do you feel about sending men who attempt to buy sex to prison where a lot of involuntary sex occurs?

[MineralMan]

74. I'd say it depends. I'd be fine with paying for an underaged prostitute

being a felony. As for your other points:

I've had dinner and a movie with quite a few people. I do not ever remember negotiating to have sex in exchange. That sometimes occurred, of course, but was a separate thing, and not dependent on dinner and a movie at all. I've never had an expectation of sex after a date with anyone.

Prison sex is something completely different, in my opinion. It's simple enough to avoid, so I don't ever expect to be in such a situation. I have no intention of being in prison, and behave accordingly.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

77. Paying for sex with an underage prostitute is already legally and culturally prohibited

Paying for sex with an underage prostitute is already legally and culturally prohibited in the U S A. It's called statutory rape.

If your theory is put into practice, actually it already is ; soliciting a prostitute is a crime in most jurisdictions but I digress, those unfortunate men will be subject to truly involuntary sex that goes well beyond psychological coercion.

[MineralMan]

89. And yet, you can find an underaged prostitute in any sizable city.

Prosecutions of those who use them are rare. I believe they should not be.

Here in the Twin Cities of Minnesota, that is changing. Today, underaged prostitutes are being treated as victims, rather than criminals and those who use them and traffic them are increasingly being prosecuted. That's a good change, in my opinion, but the problem is still a large one here. I'm hopeful that will change with the new emphasis on prosecuting those who use such prostitutes. Our new Ramsey County Attorney has taken the lead in this change. He's a good man.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

96. Engaging in sex with a minor is a felony and rightfully so.

It's a bit of a red herring. Minors don't have agency, adults do...

I am not willing to strip people of their agency. There's lots of things adults do that I believe aren't good for them but I don't have the right to strip them of their agency.

[MineralMan]

97. Most prostitutes actually don't have agency over themselves.

Most are exploited coercively by others. Sorry, but that's the case.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

100. That's against the law, too...

We are not allowed to commandeer the labor of others.

[MineralMan]

102. Again, very simply, demand drives this.

I propose fighting it from the demand side. I thought that was pretty clear in my OP. Make accessing prostitution very risky, which it is not right now, and demand will drop. I'm suggesting changing the focus of enforcement and penalties from the supply side to the demand side. It's simple.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

115. How is your campaign to criminalize prostitution

How is your campaign to criminalize prostitution different than the campaign to criminalize abortion?

The motivation for both comes down to the motivation on the part of those that campaign against it that they know what is best for other individuals and want the heavy hand of the state to help them impose their will on others?

[MineralMan]

117. Uff da! I believe we are having two different conversations here.

If you are going to conflate prostitution with abortion, I'm out of the conversation, and I won't even bother to explain why.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

124. In both instances, the prohibitionists profess to know what is best for other people.

Perhaps you want to be the supernanny who tells everybody else what they can and can't do with their own bodies.

[MineralMan]

127. Not at all. It is not just one body that is involved with

prostitution. The desire to have sex, even if one has to pay for it, has no relationship with the right to control one's reproductive decisions. That you think they are in any way equivalent is interesting, though.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

129. Unless you are talking about RU486 there are two people involved.

Actually there are two people involved in that too, the pharmacist and the person who makes the purchase but I digress...

So, you reserve the right unto yourself to regulate other people's procreative decisions but not their reproductive decisions, interesting.

How about letting adults decide what they want to do with their bodies?

Then you wouldn't be in the position of defending your arbitrary and capricious decision making.

[ljm2002]

67. Prostitution is known as "the oldest profession"...

...now whether it truly is the very oldest profession I don't know, but it certainly has been around for a very, very long time.

Therefore, making it illegal to pay for sex is unrealistic IMO.

The more obvious solution is to legalize and regulate it, thus removing the pimp entirely -- at least the thuggish pimps who are rampant under the present system. It will also reduce the number of underage girls involved, as well as helping to ensure the health and welfare of the prostitutes.

I don't like the idea of prostitution. It makes me uncomfortable. But let's be real. Look at how many people have been incarcerated for drugs. Yet all the draconian penalties that have been imposed have not reduced the demand one little bit.

What we really need to do is stop criminalizing all sorts of behaviors that don't directly harm others. In the case of drugs and prostitution, decriminalization and/or legalization along with harm mitigation would be the correct policies IMO.

[Silent3]

71. "Personally, I cannot even imagine what possible benefit I could get from paying for sex."

Then the problem is that you have an incredibly limited imagination.

That you continue with "I discovered the alternative solution in my very early teens" would appear to spell out the limits of your imagination -- that you think the only possibly goal of sex is orgasm, and that you can't imagine any reason to prefer one way of achieving orgasm over another.

For myself, the idea of sex being a financial transaction is a bit of a turn off. I don't expect that feeling to be universal, however, so I have no problem seeing why, if the money part doesn't turn you off, you wouldn't rather have different kinds of experiences and contact with another warm body, rather than fully satisfied with what you can do with nothing but your own hands.

[The Second Stone]

73. how tiresome

Personally, I cannot even imagine what possible benefit I could get from paying for sex. I have never done so, and know that I never will. So, I do not understand what it is that causes some men to pay prostitutes for sex. I discovered the alternative solution in my very early teens.

posting on message boards is the alternative? Really, some things should be kept private.

[MineralMan]

75. Sorry to bore you.

[Iron Man]

76. You want to throw consenting adults into prison because you don't like what they're doing?

Did I read your post right?

[MineralMan]

82. No, I do not think you read it right.

But, you read it however you read it.

[Iron Man]

113. I think I did.

Throwing people in prison for consensual sex in exchange for money is just wrong.

[MineralMan]

114. Consensual is the key word, Iron Man.

Most prostitution isn't really consensual on the part of everyone involved. And there's the rub. You may think it's consensual, but you are incorrect in many, many cases in the real world.

Were prostitution truly consensual, I'd have no problem with it, but it is not. Prostitutes are routinely exploited and coerced, either physically or psychologically. Their consent is not really consent.

[Iron Man]

132. When it is regulated, yes it is consentual.

I have seen documentaries from the various brothels in Nevada and all of the women involved love their job.

Are you getting your information from them or from someone who doesn't know anything about the industry?

[MyNameGoesHere]

78. Some men must have sex

so why not advocate for slicing off the penis of some boys at birth? Makes about as much sense. In fact my idea would most likely have huge support here.

[MineralMan]

84. I did not say that, did I?

I said that some men believed that they must have sex with other people. I'm afraid that I do not find that to be true. I am not bound in any way to do that, although I certainly have enjoyed doing that with consensual partners.

Your conclusion is not the logical conclusion of what I wrote, by any means. Genital mutilation is not something that anyone in the U.S. would suggest. It's rather common, though, in other parts of the world, but it is not generally men who suffer that horror.

[dickthegrouch]

120. You don't consider circumcision to be genital mutilation??????

I guess you didn't buy your wife an engagement or wedding ring either.
They may not be direct cash for sex, but they are the closest (legal) proxy for paying for sex I can think of. There are very few weddings where there is not an immediate expectation of sex. The mythology around the symbols is just conveniently obscuring.

[MineralMan]

126. I don't consider circumcision to be genital mutilation, no.

I do consider clitoridectomies, however, to be so. They are the equivalent of your mention of cutting off boy's penises. Circumcision? It can be a religious ritual or a prophylactic surgery. In my case it was the latter, and chosen by my parents. It has neither harmed me, nor diminished my enjoyment of sex. I don't consider it a mutilation at all.

Your mileage may differ...

As for my wife, I've had three of them in my 69 years. A wedding ring was payment for nothing. Rather, it was symbolic of our mutual desire to form a legal and binding relationship. It neither guaranteed nor paid for any sex that occurred. That was mutually desired. You've made a poor analogy.

[MyNameGoesHere]

136. No I said it.

I took your "small" generalization and expanded it to one logical conclusion. The penis slicing was all mine, you cannot take implied credit for it.

[hughee99]

83. Interesting idea. Perhaps this approach could

Be applied to "hard" drugs as well. The guy on the corner is economically forced into selling, and he's not the one making most of the money on them.

[MineralMan]

86. Some drugs are legal and others are illegal.

Personally, I'd favor making them all legal. It's worked nicely for the pharmaceutical industry, it seems.

[mwrguy]

87. I have worked as an 'escort'. You want to throw my clients into jail for paying me

to do something that would be legal for me to do for free?

We fought hard to get rid of laws criminalizing consensual sex acts, don't recriminalize them.

[99th_Monkey]

90. Just legalize it for goodness sake

Criminalizing consensual arrangements between adults is just stupid. It's nobody else's damned business.

The pimps will go begging once it's just legalized altogether. See Amsterdam.

[MineralMan]

93. Yes. See Amsterdam.

They're changing how that works, because it didn't work the way they thought it would.

http://www.citylab.com/politics/2013/03/amsterdams-latest-quest-tame-legalized-prostitution/5072/

[former9thward]

99. What Amsterdam is doing is tweaking its regulations.

It will not change the market at all. Nor should it. There are not major problems where prostitution is legal including counties of Nevada. Want exploitation and crime to go up? Then make it illegal whether buying or selling. You are yet another who says "I am not doing this fill in the blank vice so nobody else should do so either."

[99th_Monkey]

147. +100! n/t

[joanbarnes]

104. I agree, and I wish it was true, but it is the 'world's oldest profession.'

[MineralMan]

106. Everyone keeps saying that. I'm not sure it's true, though.

More likely, pimping is right up there with being a prostitute as one of the oldest professions. Prostitutes have been exploited by pimps since forever.

In any case, my OP was about decreasing the demand for prostitutes by making using prostitutes more risky for the customers. It's interesting that so many people are not seeing what I suggested. Reduce demand and reduce prostitution, with all of its coercion and exploitation of the victims of it.

[betsuni]

161. I'm sure it's not true

The first profession was some kind of healer/doctor/person with a direct line to the gods and supernatural. I don't know nothin' 'bout birthin' babies, but I believe humans need other humans with experience to help them with that. I have a feeling prostitution became a big business with the rise of organized armies.

[LostInAnomie]

108. Honest question: Why would this drive demand down?

It is already illegal to purchase sex from a prostitute. So, the criminal deterrent is already there.

Making it legal to sell sex for money shouldn't increase the price that prostitutes can charge because it is removing one of the major deterrents for entering the business. If there is no longer a criminal deterrent for prostitution, why wouldn't the supply of prostitutes increase?

If the demand is steady and the supply increases, how does that make anything more expensive?

[MineralMan]

110. It is illegal, but not particularly risky.

Few prosecutions of those who pay for prostitutes actually occur. When they do, they are misdemeanor offenses, primarily. Even in the case of underaged prostitutes, the johns are rarely prosecuted, although that does sometimes happen. Again, demand is not lowered unless there are serious consequences that increase the risk of participation on the demand side.

In some areas, this is beginning to be recognized and dealt with. Here in Minnesota, a man who trafficked underaged prostitutes was recently sentenced to 40 years in prison. You'll have difficulty finding anyone being prosecuted for using those prostitutes, though. Here's an interesting article for you to read.

http://www.minnpost.com/politics-policy/2014/06/minnesota-s-first-shelter-child-victims-sex-trafficking-prepares-open

[DemocratSinceBirth]

173. I can't believe somebody wants to make it a felony, mind you, not a misdemeanor

to engage in consensual sex with another adult just because money is exchanged.


The primary difference between misdemeanors and felonies is the amount of jail time that a convicted offender can be sentenced to serve. Many felonies are also broken down into classifications, or levels of seriousness, according to what punishments may be imposed.

Felonies that are broken down into these differing classifications include:

Murder
Rape
Arson
Sale of illegal drugs
Grand theft
Kidnapping

Yeah, paying for sex should be one of those classifications.

[antiquie]

122. Do agencies such as Emperors Club VIP

contribute to trafficing or exploitation?

[MineralMan]

128. I don't know the answer to that question. If you do, you could

explain it further. I'm not familiar with that "club."

ETA: I looked it up. If you think it represents prostitution in general, you are very much mistaken. It's also no longer in business, having been shut down for violating the law.

[antiquie]

131. It is a famous agency for high-price, high-class call girls.

One of my favorite NY governors resigned because he was a client.

I believe both men and women have the right to do what they want with their bodies, or charge for their bodies, as long as they are consenting adults. I am considering the argument against legalization that it may increase trafficing. I wondered if the difference between street corner solicitation and four-star hotel arrangements would influence your preference to outlaw payment.

[indivisibleman]

139. I pretty much agree with you

I grew up in a society where it was illegal and think a healthy society should have laws against it. How the enforcement of those laws should be applied and what they should be is open for debate. I believe legalizing prostitution will only increase it's use and studies bear out that this is the case.
I find it interesting that some people believe that if you are against prostitution in general you are a prude but being against underage prostitution isn't being a prude. This is such a double standard.
Sure there will always be prostitution and an underbelly of society but good laws against such activities would hold it at bay and provide a more stable society for most people.
The penalty should be directed primarily on those who pay for these services. They should have their name listed on a sex offender registry just as anyone else would who was arrested for sex with minors or use and distribution of child pornography. Though I do think the registry should make the distinction as to what behavior they were being charged for.
I personally know of two people who are on the sexual offender's list. One made sexual advances toward an underage relative when they were 18 and the other had consensual sex with a 17 year old when he was 20. The sex registry makes little distinction as to what crime these men committed but will have this registry follow them all their lives. How much more should a user of prostitutes be on such a list whom in my mind poses a greater threat to society. Especially if they are using underage prostitutes.
What is the average age of most prostitutes? As I understand it most of them are pretty young. The average age of death is 34 and the homicide rate is 51 time higher than that of the next most dangerous occupation. Just from a health perspective on the issue it should be strongly discouraged and kept illegal.
If this makes me a prude then so be it. I would rather live in a society with some regulation of behavior than in a society without any.
I remain open to listening to other arguments in the interest of finding what is the best approach toward these issues that produce the best outcomes for society.

[Quantess]

140. The only thing I have against it is that it very often is slavery, criminal human exploitation.

If prostitution were an honest trade, with sex workers getting a fair amount of human decency during their workday, then I would not want law enforcement to crack down on it. But, prostitution is not an honest or noble trade in most cases. In many cases it amounts to modern day slavery.

[pfitz59]

145. The demand for prostitution will never go away

There are biological imperatives which drive human nature. Sex with multiple partners is one of them. Name a primate society where monogamy is the norm? Men want to have sex with healthy women of reproductive age. Its in our genes. In most of earth's patriarchal societies women are considered property, to be bought, sold and traded. In the few parts of the world where women have been emancipated there will always be some willing to sell their services for social and/or economic gain, or because of hardship and necessity. Our best option is to legalize prostitution and regulate it so that client and customer are protected from the coercive and destructive focus of the criminally-controlled "illegal" marketplace which currently exists.

[hifiguy]

146. Prostitution has existed throughout human history.

It is never going to disappear. Ever. Homo sapiens is not a perfectible species and anyone who thinks it is is a hopelessly naive idealist, immune to any reading of the lessons of history or just plain batshit insane. Biological imperatives are what they are and the sex drive is primal. The way to address the demand for prostitution is to control the practice in such a way that harms are reduced to the greatest possible degree.

[hedgehog]

148. Money is not part of human biology. There might be some truth to a claim that

primate males obtain sexual favors by proving themselves to be providers. On the other hand, observations have shown that it is a biological imperative that a males will kill a females existing offspring if they were fathered by a previous sexual partner. We don't tolerate that biological imperative.

[Nye Bevan]

149. I believe in "legalize, tax and regulate" for alcohol, drugs and prostitution (nt)

[Shoulders of Giants]

150. Please don't ever refer to yourself as "pro choice"

With this post, you are making it very clear that neither men nor women deserve the right to their own choices in their sexuality.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4027340
"I'm 100% pro-choice in all circumstances."


WRONG!

"For me, it would be the height of arrogance to believe that I should have any role in such decisions for others."

Well, you are correct here, so why are you doing that in this thread?

[MineralMan]

159. Really? It's fascinating that you found some post of

mine from 2013 and misinterpreted it in that way. Fascinating. Keep digging. Maybe you'll find something else that prompts you to try to tell me what not to do. I don't actually recognize your screen name. Have we ever interacted before?

[Shoulders of Giants]

162. It took 30 seconds to find that post with a simple google search.

The point I am making, is that you are no different than the religious right here. You are telling people what they can or cannot do with their bodies. If someone wants to sell their body through their own free will, that is their business and not yours. Therefore, until you respect that fact, you shouldn't refer to yourself as pro choice, because you are not. You want to use the power of government to suppress consensual sexuality. Prostitution has been legalized in several locations in the world in ways that promote freedom instead of sexual slavery.

[MineralMan]

163. The post you linked was about reproductive rights,

not sexual rights. There is a difference. I'm totally pro-choice with regard to reproductive rights. I'm also totally opposed to coercion with regard to sexual rights. You appear to be confused about the difference between the two things. In any case, I do not take orders about what I may and may not say from anyone. Ever.

You may have mistaken me for someone I am not.

[Shoulders of Giants]

164. So you are selective about where you think the government should stick its nose in private business

My mistake.


"I'm also totally opposed to coercion with regard to sexual rights."

No you're not, you just made a thread stating the government should prohibit certain forms of consensual sex, that are actually none of your business.

"In any case, I do not take orders about what I may and may not say from anyone. Ever. "

You're free to say whatever you want. I'm not gonna stop you. But if you call yourself "prochoice," its a lie. Feel free to keep lying though, I'm not gonna stop you. When I said please don't call yourself "prochoice" that was merely a suggestion to be honest. It's not a command. However, I find it strange that you take such offense to the idea that I may be giving you orders (when I'm not), when the whole point of this thread is that you believe the government should give people orders on what consensual sex acts are acceptable or not. I personally believe in the concept of "my body my choice" instead.

[MineralMan]

167. Yes, your mistake.

Good evening to you.

[orpupilofnature57]

152. Truly a Man-made dilemma, as is misogyny .

no sarcasm .

[bowens43]

155. people need to mind their own business. this is fucking amazing....

it's ridiculous to want to arrest people for prostitution or soliciting. Welcome to the police state. It's no wonder our country is falling apart and our prison population is skyrocketing ....

making purchasing something that you can legally get for free illeagal is the pinicle of stupidity

[craigmatic]

156. Well actually it's either desperate or lazy women in a comination with men. You can't have customers

with nothing to sell in the first place.