General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWhoopi uses View, 2+ mil viewers, to attack teacher due process. Teacher/admin fights back.
Looks like the average viewership of The View is about 2.82 million weekly.
That's a very huge voice she has there. The View appears to have taken up Campbell Brown's campaign to end due process rights for New York teachers.
That gives Campbell's project a tremendous free and powerful voice.
Whoopi's attack on due process for teachers:
A teacher/administrator responds to her, and he points out that he has only a very tiny voice. So true.
Thank you educator Keith Reeves for your effort. Teachers do indeed have a very teeny tiny microphone.
The reformers have the billions.
= new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight:
NoneDon't highlight anything
5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)But you know what they say about big lies....
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)It takes documentation, meetings with the school board and and literally years of effort.
http://www.education.com/question/remove-bad-teacher-classroom/
In our district we had a teacher who refused to teach the curriculum to her elementary school students. The kids loved her, but her students consistently left her classroom without having gained anywhere near a year's worth of learning. They would come in at grade 3, and they would leave for fourth classes witha learning level of grade 3.3, except for the students with educated parents.
These parents tried for years to remove this teacher, without success. Finally, with two years left until she retired, the administration placed her in a non-instructional position.
Everuyone knew how lousy she was at teaching. Parents, upon learning their kid was going into that third grade pit of intellectual quicksand would pull their kid out of school for a year of homeschooling rather than submit their child to that sort of damage.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)He covers that well.
There are steps in place to get rid of teachers who are not capable. Other teachers can not do it, it is the district, state, and administrators' place.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)It results from the near universal use of evaluation systems that inflate a teacher's competency. I've taught in several school districts and the least competent teachers would often have a canned lesson prepared just for an evaluation day. The administrator would walk in and the teacher would pull out a lesson plan that included cooperative learning, peer evaluation, public speaking, writing, reading, and incorporated other subjects.
They always received great marks on their evaluation, even though the rest of the time they were just average teachers (competent but nothing super special). But even when a teacher just plows on through their regular lesson, they still receive super marks from the evaluations (except when the administrator has a personal problem with the teacher). And if the admin gives the teacher a bad evaluation, all the teacher does is request another evaluation from a different administrator.
The problem is real. As Whoopi's show demonstrates, these are more than just right wingers complaining.
There are serious problems with our public school system that results from a failure at home, in the administrative office, with the government and, yes, even in the classroom.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Response to Android3.14 (Reply #43)
Post removed
Egnever
(21,506 posts)And this type of response from teachers is why they are going to be dictated to instead of included in developing a solution.
Detailess tales don't cut it. Way too easy to invent scenarios out of thin aires.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)Reams of it.
And it is all over the web. I wont bother posting it because you can google it yourself very easily.
Again pretending it is not happening only makes teachers look foolish.
7962
(11,841 posts)
Skeeter Barnes
(994 posts)Take the freight industry or the auto industry, for example. In those industries, the "tenure" comes after maybe 30-90 days of full time employment under Union contract. How many years do teachers have to work before reaching that point?
ChairmanAgnostic
(28,017 posts)Far easier than a teacher. The comparison is foolish.
Skeeter Barnes
(994 posts)
ChairmanAgnostic
(28,017 posts)Electrical, iron worker and police unions, yes. And I have represented teachers and mid level admins in education, too. Glad you saw my point and agreed with it. I didn't think you had the capacity to admit a mistake.
Skeeter Barnes
(994 posts)to represent them.
ChairmanAgnostic
(28,017 posts)Being an asshole, how do you look at yourself in the mirror in the morning? Oh sit, the basement has no mirror. Gotcha.
ChairmanAgnostic
(28,017 posts)or do you work hard to be an insufferable asshole? I can only imagine what your parents thought when you left the basement.
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)Hmmm... I thought we WERE being included. That's what all the US DOE rhetoric's been saying for the last 6 years.
Hmmm......
>>>
And this type of response from teachers is why they are going to be dictated to instead of included in developing a solution.>>>>>>
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)privatize the Public School System, Bush policies, remember? Whoopi is wrong, she is an entertainer, not an educator, who has fallen for the rhetoric without understanding that what she is supporting is the horrible NCLB, Bush's Corporate 'education' system. The same 'system' that has enriched his buddies in the Educational Publishing Business. The ones who print the TESTS.
It really is sad when an entertainer with no knowledge of the field, education in this case, is used to promote one of the WORST so-called, 'education' systems in the developed world.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)The problems with our current system reside in all legs of the stakeholders including teachers, administrators, families and school governance.
While there certainly needs to be protections for teachers and their jobs, the current situation protects bad teachers as well as good teachers. Sure, let's protect the good teachers, but let's stop pretending that all teachers are somehow heroic educators simply because they have a teaching certificate. Some are great, some are average, some are mediocre, and some are so bad that they are a threat to a student's education.
Any educator with real experience knows about the problem teachers. We've all seen them and/or had to work with them. There are not many, but they are out there.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Thanks for getting it.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)You are a teacher? Then, you should know that you cannot globally apply your personal teaching experiences and call them "systemic."
Furthermore, madfloridian has consistently, and accurately, covered the ongoing corporatization of our system of public education, and the egregious finger-pointing--by those who choose to ignore the critical role of poverty and other macro level issues--at "bad teachers" as the single most important factor in our failure to educate our younglings.
Please stop perpetuating this misrepresentation of "bad teachers" as the "real" problem.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Blaming poverty is a poor cop out. I've taught the wealthy and I've taught the poor. The latter require more creativity, commitment, and district services. But with these, a motivated teacher can help impoverished students learn, in spite of their financial situation. Jaime Escalante taught all teachers this fundamental truth.
All teachers learn in their cognitive development classes and classroom management classes that the socioeconomic status of a student's caregivers is the top predictor on academic performance. All this means is that if a student is impoverished, then we need to provide services to deal with that. One such service might be to make sure that the best teachers serve the most impoverished students, rather than the current situation where the best teachers tend to end up in wealthier districts.
Please stop wasting my time defending the indefensible. The problems with public education come from district, state and federal leadership as well as issues with administration, problems in the home, and yes, problems with teachers.
The single biggest problem with education is members of these groups pointing at the other groups and saying they are the problem. As a teacher, I recognize that we have a responsibility to maintain quality within our field.
Positive change will only occur when members of these groups step up, recognize their responsibility, and carry forward with a sincere intent to improve the situation for their group.
You can believe whatever you want regarding the poster. I go on what the evidence reveals.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)Last edited Wed Aug 6, 2014, 07:43 PM - Edit history (1)
you seem to have been selective about the "evidence" you choose to believe.
And, Jaime was an amazing teacher. I can only hope to teach math as effectively as he did.
But, that does NOT change the fact that politically (and financially) motivated individuals are working hard to make "BAD TEACHERS" the single most important challenge to effectively educating our younglings.
(I have taught impoverished students, too, spending a good bit of my own money to make sure they had a nutritious breakfast--not the plastic cheez on white 'toast' that was ubiquitous in our district--and offering extra tutoring time so that they didn't have to ask their under- or uneducated parents for help on challenging algebraic concepts.)
BTW, I cannot possibly 'waste' your time. YOU are the one who chooses whether or not you read my posts, and I would strongly encourage you to add me to your IL, since I will never agree that 'bad teachers' are the reason our system of public education is failing.
Bleh... I think I will elect not to read any more of your posts.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Man, we're together on this one. If you find someone on this board saying that "'bad teachers' are the reason our system of public education is failing", we should stomp that mess down right away. While that issue is certainly real, we both know the problems with public education includes many factors, other than the simplistic notion of the incompetent educators a.k.a. "bad teachers".
If teachers want to stop the nonsense of the notion that "bad teachers" are the reason for failure, then the unions need to take control of the message and police their ranks. Make it a non-issue by creating their own standards, proposing an independent method of teacher evaluation, and dumping the few incompetents.
They do this, and their hand is much stronger when it comes to dealing with the other problem areas in leadership, administration, and parental criticism, and policing our own ranks also allows teachers more influence when demanding higher pay, exercising greater classroom independence, and receiving community respect.
ancianita
(36,128 posts)decisions about who can be tenured, and they are the only source of bad teaching in schools. Most of them are career bureaucrats who wouldn't be caught dead in a classroom. Most of them decided, if they ever were in the classroom, that it was too much work and moved on to make bigger bucks. Most of them sell out to privatizer politics and abandon any commitment to human development.
Once teachers leave universities and are certified, administrators alone are responsible for any bad teachers in their schools. They alone are responsible for rehabilitating bad teachers. The unions are there to protect the due process of teaching professionals who usually only get caught in the crosshairs of administrators' political decisions reflecting on the wills of privatizers -- whether it's over testing or about staying on the bureaucratic treadmill of 'innovation.' After corporate universities who fail to properly train the nation's teaching force, administrators are the true sellouts of quality education.
NO one holds administrators properly accountable for the state of the nation's schools. No one. The public had better wake up. Whoopi is part of the problem, not the solution.
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts).... that truly hits the mark.
I'd object to one word only: the word "only" in sentence #2. Some teachers ( very few in my experience) can start strong, look good for few years and then fizzle out; or simply *change*.
Hard to blame the granter of tenure for that. But such situations are what due process proceedings are all about.
Fantastically spot-ON post.
ancianita
(36,128 posts)
chervilant
(8,267 posts)the 'experts' who keep weighing in to justify the "bad teachers are destroying our schools" myth?
And, I am REALLY astonished that some who purport to be educators post patronizing or derisive responses to your OPs. I can assure you, I would learn very little were I a student of such an 'educator.'
Plucketeer
(12,882 posts)that every year, this 3rd grade teacher had very few kids in her classroom? What school district was this???
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)No. I am saying that each year, some parents would pull their kids from this teacher's class rather than suffer this version of "education". She had plenty of students in her class, because most folks couldn't afford to home school.
I don't understand why this is so complicated.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Not every child will be at grade level, nor will they advance to the next "grade level" because someone says they should.
Students are individuals who learn at different rates.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)"Students are individuals who learn at different rates"? Please excuse my sarcasm, but Golly. What a new concept. I wonder if anyone else realizes that.
Regarding the measures. Most teachers know this sort of grade level measure, which is often in the permanent file for incoming students that a competent teacher uses to evaluate a new class at the beginning of the year.
For example, there are algorithms that school counselors use to determine where to place a student based on a student's score on one of any number of evaluation tools. Some tools have the specific design of determining grade level mastery. If a kid is coming into a school with a chronological age putting him in 4th grade, but he has the academic progress of grade 2.4, this means he is actually midway through second grade and will need more support.
In general, a teacher should bring the vast majority of his or her class forward at one grade per year. Good teachers advance their students at more than one grade per year, say 1.2 grades. If, however, student's from a specific teacher consistently gain less than a grade level, say 0.6 of a grade, then there is a problem.
These are common measures in the education field. I've used them for my own classes, and I've shown student teachers how to use them when when I taught college students working towards their teacher certifications how to prepare for a new class.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)I taught both 2nd and 4th. That statement of yours...that they will need more support...that is so obvious you did not even need to say it. Do you really truly think that poorly of those of here in the education field that you would say something like that?
Of course he needs extra help. In the high poverty, high minority school where I taught for several years....there were so so many needing extra help. Some spoke no English, some very little. The district did not provide translators. They cut that program out to save money.
Can you put the blame on teachers for that? Every child I taught needed and desired all the help I could give them.
For example, there are algorithms that school counselors use to determine where to place a student based on a student's score on one of any number of evaluation tools. Some tools have the specific design of determining grade level mastery. If a kid is coming into a school with a chronological age putting him in 4th grade, but he has the academic progress of grade 2.4, this means he is actually midway through second grade and will need more support.
In general, a teacher should bring the vast majority of his or her class forward at one grade per year. Good teachers advance their students at more than one grade per year, say 1.2 grades. If, however, student's from a specific teacher consistently gain less than a grade level, say 0.6 of a grade, then there is a problem
Did you really talk like that to the teachers you were advising? Of course it's a good idea to advance students a little over a year. Of course. It's the ideal.
But the reality in many areas is not ideal. No matter how many hours we worked, no matter how much tutoring on the side from parents or aides....some students can not make that progress.
But you don't seem to believe much in reality when it comes to real life teachers and the problems they face.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)I choose to refrain from responding to any claims of expertise that you make in this topic area.
That is not the issue, and your concern over it is a childish distraction.
Here's the issue
If a teacher consistently is unable to advance students by approximately a year of academic progress while others within the same district are capable of doing so, even with the same students, then it should be a relatively simple matter to evaluate and dismiss that teacher. However, it is difficult-to-the-point of exhaustion for any authority to remove such an instructor.
I've seen it.
So have other progressive thinkers.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rev-al-sharpton-and-joel-klein/teacher-rx-the-perfect-st_b_174516.html
Maybe Al Sharpton saw Whoopi's show. Oh wait, Sharpton said this years ago.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Good Lord, that is getting into dangerous territory. It is judging capabilities of other students on those who perform as they should.
It alarms me and worries me that you are teaching other teachers this stuff.
With all your rhetoric, with all the canned responses of the reformers.....there will always be the reality that people are individuals.
That is a very dangerous philosophy you teach, that all are alike. I hope those who appointed who to work in training other teachers take stock of your beliefs.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)eom
Rex
(65,616 posts)On this, I agree wholeheartedly.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)Documentation. Some EVIDENCE that the teacher is "awful."
Your anecdotal example is a perfect illustration of what the 2nd video is saying. Except that I doubt very much that there was evidence to show that all students left with a learning level of "3.3"; that, in itself, indicates some misunderstanding about learning.
Parents tried for years? Parents don't remove teachers. Administrators do. It's up to the administrator to use the due process available to address a teacher that needs to be removed. If the administrator did not, that's an enforcement issue, not a tenure issue. In K-12 education, tenure does not mean that teachers will not be observed, evaluated, or removed if necessary. It just means that there's a process, and there has to be concrete evidence. It doesn't have to take "years."
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Whoopi should invite teachers and child development experts to her show. Americans generally think that teacher just stand up in front of a class and start talking. They have no idea that teachers study how to teach just like MBAs study how to run businesses and computer programmers study how to program computers.
It would be great if Whoopi used her show for programs about how to prepare a pre-school child for school, what to expect from day-care, how to talk to your child, how to discipline your child, how to encourage a small child to learn to focus and sit still and learn.
That would be the best way that Whoopi could help improve education.
Teachers, even with tenure, can be fired. It happens all the time.
The problem with our education system is the lack of understanding about what babies and children need in the first months and years of their lives to develop their brains and skills for success.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that has me wondering, with this teacher thing.
DURHAM D
(32,611 posts)Also, she supported Michael Vick (football player who ran dog fighting ring) when no one else was. She said it wasn't a big deal.
I happened to have the tv on when she went off on teachers. To be honest I thought she was just stupid and talking out her ass about something she doesn't know anything about.
She seems to be a rightwing libertarian.
Bill Geddie the producer and owner of The View is very rightwing. Barbara is also a rightie but has been fairly successful at hiding it. That is why they have so many hosts that are Republican operatives.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)thanks. one has gotta wonder. we like, see it all, when it makes no sense.
octoberlib
(14,971 posts)despite being unpopular with viewers. Thanks for the info!
madfloridian
(88,117 posts) 
randys1
(16,286 posts)damn, this is fucking sick
we are in trouble in this country, teachers are next, then there will be almost no unions left
koch bros win, we lose
who is the stupid new blonde that likes Christie?
eww..i say blonde only to point her out, not saying blondes are stupid
maybe she isnt even blonde
end the teachers union then we will all be working for $2 an hour
840high
(17,196 posts)
Raster
(20,998 posts)Shut the fuck up.
7962
(11,841 posts)
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)On an episode of The View which aired on May 9, 2012, Goldberg stated she is a member of the National Rifle Association
whathehell
(29,069 posts)how she tried to recruit her for some good social cause, and Whoopi was "all in",
until the organizer let someone else, a long time organizer, speak BEFORE her...Whoopi
kept saying "can't she stop talking now"?..Can't you stop her, stuff like that...The organizer
wisely didn't bend to Whoopi's ego demands, and their association was off.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)whathehell
(29,069 posts)elehhhhna
(32,076 posts)yep, she's a republican
snooper2
(30,151 posts)it's more about personality....
Sherri Shephard doesn't even know the fucking planet is round 
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)being in the know, having a show, they would be thinkers.
i can see this.
George II
(67,782 posts).....and lived the NYC public school "life experience"!
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Nice going, Whoopi. I assume she's a SAG-AFTRA member who will concede that lousy actors should also be stripped of work protections. 
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)She really needs to back off this. I intend to post whatever I can find about things she says.
The whole show apparently went after teachers the other day....I never watch it so I don't know.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)She's really not much of a critical thinker, which is sad, since her mother was a teacher. (Her whole "rape-rape" episode about Roman Polanski was also horrible.)
She posted this video response on Facebook, she got a lot of feedback from teachers on it.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=846314722047216
One of her replies in the thread to one of the hundreds of people who tried to explain to no avail that she did not understand tenure:
"Karen - first of all I said this was about teachers who weren't doing there job NOT the great teachers. Perhaps you're not aware but people are not bashing teachers. I don't know anybody who has anything bad to say about teachers who are doing their job which is to shape their student. It is only the bad teachers that I have an issue with - I thought I was pretty clear about that. And again, my mother was a teacher so I get it. And, I'm a union kid but a union doesn't service (in my opinion) it's members who are not pulling their weight. In any other job it wouldn't be a question. I get due diligence but if you do your due diligence and the teacher comes up short what can you do about it? In a lot of places you can't fire the teacher. And by the by it's just my opinion and how I feel based on what I know. Thanks for writing."
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)whathehell
(29,069 posts)His job was to defend people, of course, but sometimes, by his own admission,
people were just too lousy as employees, for one reason or another, to save them.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)it is that the process of getting it done is so onerous it can literally take years. Meanwhile the children are left holding the bag.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Teachers can not get rid of fellow bad teachers, so why take the due process away from all of them?
If a school district and its administrators do their job, the process should be a short one.
Our union never tried to keep teachers from being fired for cause, they simply were there for their due process.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)This is a shameless attack on teachers who can't fight back.
Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,771 posts)talk about all the BS that is behind the "education reform" movement? What's that you say, the 5th of Never?
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Have you noticed there are no networks taking side of teachers? It is disappointing.
Dark n Stormy Knight
(9,771 posts)far reaching, and multimedia. And far too many Dems have fallen prey to the lies that propaganda is pushing. If it were just the Rs who believed that nonsense, we'd have a chance to defeat its spread. I 'm not sure we do now.
rateyes
(17,438 posts)Response to madfloridian (Original post)
m-lekktor This message was self-deleted by its author.
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)Egnever
(21,506 posts)Whoopi is talking about the difficulty in removing bad teachers and he is speaking to test based evaluations.
Two completely different subjects in my opinion.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Not the whole percentage, but enough for good teachers to be hurt badly just because they have a below level class that year.
You just can NOT blame the teacher for everything.
hopemountain
(3,919 posts)teachers who fail at their jobs or are charged and convicted of criminal action should not have tenure. when one violates a contract, then one should not receive the benefits of said contract. period. unions should represent the rights of the students, too.
right is right and wrong is wrong. when one does wrong, there should be consequences and one of the consequences is the abolition of the right to any perks or benefits of the contract they violate.
obama and arne duncan do not judge teachers "the same" as whoopi, either. if this were true, she would not be supportive of public schools.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)There always have been, there always will be. It's amazing how the reformers have run with that and won over so many....when it is not true. If a teacher like that continues to have due process rights.....then blame the administrators who are supposed to enforce the laws.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)I have witnessed it first hand as have many others. People are not making up their anger at the inability of some school systems to remove bad teachers.
Blaming the administrator is as bad an excuse as pretending all teachers belong in their profession(some don't). If the roadblocks to removal of a demonstrably bad teacher are so onerous that the administration can not remove them with any reasonable efficiency. It is a problem and it needs to be addressed.
Pretending teachers are saints does not address the problem at all and only makes teachers look ridiculous for refusing to acknowledge a problem they all know exist simply because they are worried someone with a "grudge" might get to them.
So now we are going to ignore problems with the school system because we are concerned with what could happen.
Kind of like refusing to pass the ACA because it wasn't single payer. Screw all the people it will help because it isn't the best possible outcome and there will be problems with it.
You want unions to be busted? Continue with the teachers on the cross garbage. If teachers wont be honest about the problems with removing bad teachers then the union deserves the scorn it gets. The union should be to ensure professional teachers are treated as the professionals they are not to protect bad apples from legitimate complaints.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)So why blame the good teachers for that?
This has become the place to come for anti-teacher rhetoric.
That won't change.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Ignorant folks can spout dreamy nonsense all they want, but the truth of the matter is that our schools have systemic problems, and one of those problems is bad teachers. You can play the "every teacher is a saint" card all you want. It sounds sweet, but it shows you lack knowledge or are ignoring the situation staring you in the face.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Meaning what?
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Unions are employee groups concerned only with the rights of its membership.
Unions should at most, consider how their contract terms affect the educational budget and promote/hinder the education of the students; but that is only a secondary concern ... just as the UAW doesn't care about auto sales, other than its effect on the company's bottom-line (i.e., the pot available to go to the workers).
alstephenson
(2,415 posts)Teachers unions are concerned about students and advocate for smaller class sizes and other factors that directly impact learning. The teacher bashing here is ridiculous.
Anecdotal evidence of not being able to get rid of bad teachers and so needing to take the rights from all teachers reminds me of the "problem" of voter fraud and so needing to take rights from all voters. Same concept.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)And at the risk of being accused of teacher bashing, it's not much different from a production quota. While reducing the number of kids in a classroom will no doubt affect educational outcomes, that is not the main concern of Unions ... it's ensuring good working conditions.
ancianita
(36,128 posts)1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)I am an AFT officer. We have many resolutions and measures that are concerned with the conditions of our students and their/our community. Children aren't cars.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)joeglow3
(6,228 posts)I have said a principal should have final say in who is an effective teacher and who is not. I have had many (in fact, almost all that I have talked to) teachers say this is wrong because the principal could have an ax to grind.
My question to you is "what process should be used to judge a teacher, who should have the authority to fire a teacher and what needs to be documented to substantiate the firing?"
roody
(10,849 posts)joeglow3
(6,228 posts)That logic applies to ANY profession and I have yet to see this. Or, are you saying the teaching profession is filled with unethical people fucking the principal?
roody
(10,849 posts)work environment populated by humans.
And every work environment I have ever worked in had a supervisor that evaluated their employees. It did not argue against that because so many people are fucking their bosses.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Because if a teacher is found to be guilty of not doing her job...and it can be proved...then they lose their tenure and their job.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)There are stories from districts from across the country that are taking YEARS to get a teacher eliminated. That is NOT due process. That IS bullshit. But, some people can't discuss this honestly. I had someone on DU tell be administrators will spend YEARS framing good teachers, but won't spend weeks or months firing bad ones because it is too much work.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)No teacher in a school should have an administrator determine their competency. Evaluators from other schools (preferably other districts) or trained observers hired from outside the district should do the evaluations.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)A principal is there every day. In any profession, if someone is being evaluated 5% of the time (and most likely knows when that 5% is), that evaluation is most likely crap.
There is much more to an evaluation than what teaching methods a teacher uses when being watched.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)The problem with principals evaluating teachers is that they hear all the parental complaints. It clouds their judgement, creating a bias against teachers with high expectations and struggling students. As far as 5% evaluation being crap, that simply isn't so. In most cases, five percent is fine sampling to evaluate a larger population of behaviors, but someone who knows the teacher's content area should be doing it.
But the government should restrict administrators from performing evaluations..
It is a travesty that we allow administrators to evaluate teachers on the faculty of the principal's own school. One might as well have the hospital CEO evaluate the surgeons on the medical staff on medical specialization. A principal is as incompetent to evaluate how to teach a subject for which he or she lacks degree, interest or training. as a homeowner is typically incompetent to evaluate the techniques a plumber uses just because the homeowner pays the rent.
It is asinine.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)He evaluates the CFO, who evaluates the VP of tax, who evaluates the senior director of income tax accounting/federal taxation, who evaluates me.
I agree that principals should have teaching experience.
And like I said, there is much more, conduct wise, than just performing the technical skills. There is how you treat your colleagues, how you treat students, how you conduct yourself. Any of these things can be evaluated by anyone and can lead to cause for termination.
paleotn
(17,937 posts)....between "good teacher" and "bad teacher"? Sorry, but the real world doesn't work in such a nice, neat, cubby hole kind of manner. One could be considered a "bad teacher" simply because they've got a bunch of parents who don't give a shit. Or a "good teacher" because of they grade inflate and don't hold students accountable for actually learning the material. Or any one a million different scenarios. That is why due process is so important.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Well said.
Egnever
(21,506 posts)That is a weak argument.
My wife is a teacher and I have seen teachers in her school do outrageous things that no student should be subjected to and yet the administration could not remove them. That is a problem.
That has nothing whatsoever to do with test scores.
The particular teacher I am talking about was not only a horribly performing teacher she was abusive to the children it went so far as her kicking a student. She could not be removed.
That is a problem, and is what whoopi in that video is talking about. She didn't say one word in that video about test scores yet the video "response" was all test score evaluation.
It has nothing to do with test scores.
Response to paleotn (Reply #24)
Beartracks This message was self-deleted by its author.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)But any idiot can see when a teacher is so bad that he or she shouldn't be allowed to teach.
msongs
(67,430 posts)octoberlib
(14,971 posts)paleotn
(17,937 posts)i don't watch "the view" or much of anything she's on, so I had no idea what she sounded like while actually talking out of her well paid arse.
mainstreetonce
(4,178 posts)Is a completely misunderstood word. It is not a job guarantee.
I hope this does not become the next campaign issue. It will get very ugly.
Children who need good teachers protected will be the victims.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)in a clear way.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)First of all, where was this guy when I was in school?! This is a great description of the issue.
The PROCESS of earning tenure needs review and reform. Tenure itself is not the issue -- unless you're a Republican, in which case "tenure reform" is a code phrase for "fuck teachers' unions."
I used the phrase "earning tenure" rather than "granting tenure" for a specific reason. Teachers should have a number of years -- at least four -- to build a portfolio that shows that have pursued further training (possibly a higher degree) and offered service to the school since their initial hiring. The portfolio should also include a recommendation by one or more senior teachers AND administrators who have watched the teacher in the classroom, have interviewed the teacher and talked about pedagogy and performance. Not just during the year that the portfolio is being put together, but since the teacher's first day on the job. So the school is "granting" them tenure -- they're "earning" it.
And part of the tenure process should be a multi-year plan, developed by the teacher with input from senior educators and the administration, on how the teacher will continue to improve expertise and performance in the coming years. This will form the basis of the teacher's tenure renewal portfolio a number of years -- at least six -- down the road. By that time, the teacher will have himself or herself become one of the more senior teachers in the school and will be helping the next generation along.
That's one way to do it.
You'll notice I didn't mention standardized testing? Yeah. There's a reason for that...
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)It's really tragic when those of us who were/are in education are treated as though we know nothing, and those who know nothing about education are revered.
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)Parental input. That's wishful thinking, because I don't think it's politically possible. I taught college for fifteen years and I still never assumed that I knew more than my kids teachers in middle school and high school. Unless you do it for a living, you really don't know what you're talking about.
DonCoquixote
(13,616 posts)As he said, when the people in power are people who base their judgement on models made in a far away office, there is oppritunity for corruption, "unintentionally or intellionly." Florida itself is a ownderful example of that, as people ranging from Charter School fans to Imperialist Fundamentalists all try to work theur corruption in. We have polticans swimming in Charter school payola, and we have Fundies trying to work their version of Jesus in everywhere from the teachers to the very textbooks.
navarth
(5,927 posts)and now she's coming down on teachers.
She should have been Ensign Expendable. Put the red uniform on her.
a kennedy
(29,689 posts)FOREVER!!! Have never enjoyed it...and Whoopi is just another woman who for some reason thinks we should all "listen" to her. Ah, NOT. She's just another talking head who thinks she knows it all......and really, it IS her opinion, and I don't agree with her on a lot of issues. So glad I didn't watch it.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)One is the assumption that there are no bad teachers, or that if there are bad teachers, it is a simple matter to have them leave the profession.
In public school, I had something along the lines of 50-70 teachers. Out of that group, nearly every single one was pretty darn awesome, or at least did their job competently. Then there was the 8th grade math teacher who lured young boys to his classroom after school in order for them to spank each other while the teacher looked on. He was the math department head and still teaching when I graduated HS.
Then there was the history teacher that spent each day reading the newspaper while her students filled out worksheets. She had been doing this for twenty years.
The issues that parents are bringing up regarding problem teachers is a real perception that any educated reasoning parent has run across and anyone who has gone through the public system has suffered.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Egnever
(21,506 posts)doesn't matter what you want to blame it on the problem exists, and it needs to be solved.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Now that makes so damn much sense to me. Why didn't I think of that?
Lonusca
(202 posts)that you have, in this current environment, what you are going to get is what you don't want.
Administrators (or their stead) who have greater (and probably final) decision making power in the firing of teachers.
The reason: to the public it does not seem that teachers themselves are interested in fixing the problem.
There are two choices - stay the course and see where that takes teachers. Or, take a more active role (as a professional organization) in self policing and clean up. The latter is much preferable to the first.
ancianita
(36,128 posts)any problem except in the classroom. The two major problems that create all the others in education are 1. class size, and 2. time on task. All previous studies, replicated and original, show that these two directly influence student achievement. Period. No other 'solutions' from non-field bureaucrats' treadmills of innovation have ever come close. Look at private schools systems and the public will see these studies being implemented. Look at public schools and the public will see teachers being faulted for everything but the building, including how well a principal does or doesn't do his/her job.
I also prefer your latter choice.
Lonusca
(202 posts)and you could say "what the public doesn't know could fill books".
The teacher's problem - this "public" holds a huge influence over their future. You can be right till the cows come home - and the two major problems you pointed out - size and time on task - are certainly as critical as any. And I would bet a great deal of the public would mention these two items as critical to success.
But nobody's giving it to them. Thats all they care about. All they see is a broken system, and teachers are part of the system.
Is it unfair? Well - it's reality. People don't seem to be in a huge rush to keep "the system" of public education as is. Teachers need to find a way, or choose a path, to be a part of the system that the public wants to keep. If that involves distancing themselves from "the system" that might be a path to consider.
ancianita
(36,128 posts)make a system they want to keep.
This is the problem in politics, as well -- how people who have a beef with the highest levels of public asset predators revert to taking their frustrations out on whoever they can see -- their neighbor. The 99% have to see that their common future rests in making efforts for this generation of children today.
Thank you for your thoughtful post.
Lonusca
(202 posts)Here's where I think teachers will run into problems:
If that is the case - and people haven't realized it by now - I don't see the movement trending teacher's way. We have a D in the WH - and the tide isn't turning and is in fact going the other way.
And I really do not see this as a 99% issue. There are plenty of people who are acutely aware of why they don't like public education in its current form.
ancianita
(36,128 posts)the undeprivileged, as much as for the privileged, is not cheap. When you say "Plenty of people," I'm picturing "not enough." I don't think you're talking about millions. Yet, it's millions of the public who won't face this reality.
Overall, you're right. No help will be coming from the public to teachers, which is not for lack of effort on teachers' part. One level of psychology that lends inertia to this problem is that people have an ongoing interest in having others give their children something for nothing out of love, the way they themselves do. The rich know the value of education. The rest of the public, not so much. There may be systemic economic reasons why 70% of the country don't have advanced diplomas, but attitudes toward education are also among them.
Within my state of Illinois, schools are funded by the usual real estate tax base, with the usual foundational funding from the state and a maximum of 17% of federal funding which flows from IDEA for special ed. students. All this money depends on attendance.
The wealth gap hits the schools because of this real estate tax based funding. So, I really think that serious teacher and parent allies can rethink funding sources that equalize school funding distribution; thus, increase per pupil per year expenditure.
The opponents are the elites in the rich school districts of the North Shore and perhaps Monroe County in the Southwest end of the state. They buy the political influence, and buy the school funding status quo that serves them.
The fact that funding would change class size and increase the teaching force, giving more time on task to kids and improving public school achievement has always been a threat to the 1%. They make token gestures to the public, but they and their political lackeys' end goal is:
1. Defund; 2. Reform (deform); 3. Stigmatize; 4. Privatize.
We are in the 'stigmatize' stage right now.
Lonusca
(202 posts)I agree - in one form or the other - with most of them.
My plenty of people reference - there are millions and millions of people (outside of the 1%) who are aware of why they are not happy with public education. I agree it comes down to money.
I don't think people feel like they are getting their money's worth from education - from grade school through college. It's not only rich people who feel this way.
There is too much money out there - a challenge to public education will happen. Public education does not have enough allies to keep some form of private money out of it forever. Especially in an age of personalization - people are going to be more than happy to look elsewhere when the right opportunity comes along.
The real estate based funding is a problem, but it's not one that's going to go away or change anytime soon. And it is also the one that handcuffs public ed and makes it such an attractive target for someone (billionaire, businesses, etc) to come in and say "I have a solution".
Because the public education system cannot be fixed faster than someone can come up with a better solution. Even if that model is exactly something teachers have been talking about for decades - public ed won't provide it. They would have done it already. Someone is going to listen to the teachers and make a lot of money off of it. Call me cynical - but the teachers may want to look at new allies.
ancianita
(36,128 posts)cept non-voting current students and former students.
I've had former students consult with me who are already getting major private foundation funding, forming their own support networks for young black men and funding their experiential education through travel. Another former student is an LGBT tenured professor who writes about conservative sexual mores in the black community and teaches women's studies. Others are just good citizens. I've learned that allies can come from any people who believe in the institutional power of human development. I don't do much but give online support for teachers, but these young people show me that they're getting creative with money out there.
The rich will never, ever tell the rest of us this, but it always boils down to money. What the public doesn't talk about is the issue of whether they should either pay on the front end or pay on the back end. The rich certainly spare no expense on the front end.
After eavesdropping on their schools and conversations, I've come to realize that the 1% believe that the free market jungle will sift the strong from the weak. A helluva random thing, this rationalizing of such a rigged system for their own benefit.
There are millions of aware, worried parents out there who simply can't afford schools that the 1% can.
A black friend of mine (mother of a great young man in his sophomore year) wrote today:
" ...We are so miseducated in our country, we are lied to and misguided. It creates the feelings of true disconnect to the problems we face and why. You and I went to school systems that also greatly misrepresented the painful history or our country. The level of brainwashing here in the US has been unbelievable. I am not sure why we are so complacent and accepting..."
She asked my thoughts. As a fellow parent, I tried to help her have what I consider a long view:
I say that children are vulnerable, adaptive and resilient. The truth comes out eventually, no matter how misrepresentative the national narrative is that the adults tell them. Sometimes in the process of 'developing' humans, adults have to give children a sense that they belong to a good society that has a vision, no matter how flawed has been its execution.
As long as there are adults who preserve the truths of historical realities, children will grow to foreground those truths and we'll be all right when we and they learn the lessons of those truths and rededicate ourselves to do justly, love mercy and walk humbly in the mending of the damage we didn't make. How to move forward is to work at the betterment of others, which, to me, is the only good human work there is.
We might be miseducated -- even undereducated -- but we have access to more information to compensate for that than any group of people in human history. Being born into a world we didn't make doesn't mean we have a moral choice to abandon it. Letting it fall of its own dead weight is not a moral stance unless we have the vision and make the means for its replacement. That is a meaningful life.
I believe that the best half of the teacher population will work within this flawed framework to its bitter end.
Back to this thread. I don't know if our conversation's relevant, but we pretty much agree that Whoopi's not helping.
Thanks for your thoughts, Lonusca. 
Egnever
(21,506 posts)We have all encountered them in our lifetimes, be it as a parent or a student.
When teachers pretend the problem does not exist they do themselves no favors. Better to face it head on and advocate for changes so obviously necessary to anyone who has ever dealt with the public school system. Pretending the problem doesn't exist only removes them from the conversation on how to address it.
eridani
(51,907 posts)One of the top rated systems in the world, they mostly do exactly the opposite of what our "reformers" recommend.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)is greater, and more homogenous than here. There's a competitive entry system, and those who are not psychologically adept at the job are weeded out. That's something conveniently forgotten in the hail Finland movement.
Whenever I see "Finland" trotted out by American teachers......well, I ask them if they are willing to hold themselves to the educational standards of Finnish teachers. Once they find out what they are....they stop mentioning Finland.
eridani
(51,907 posts)--salary levels and professional respect. The "reformers" are making teach such an unattra top coctive profession that top college students are avoiding it like the plague.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)the ability of current teachers to do so.
And "top" college students avoid teaching for many reasons...not the least of which is their prospective colleagues.
eridani
(51,907 posts)Finnish standards combined with lower pay and ginning up as much disrespect for the profession as possible.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)professionals who agree to rigorous oversight.
eridani
(51,907 posts)--class sizes of 250. Where have you mentioned actually respecting the profession instead of treating accountability as something similar to counting how many widgets per hour can make it through an assembly line?
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)have any more respect than any other profession? In fact, the widget-counter and teachers are both hopefully union workers...tell me which one deserves more respect?
ancianita
(36,128 posts)Teaching isn't something just anyone can do. There's a constellation of personal and professional skills that make it as much an art as a quantifiable science. People who pay attention to how teachers encourage, build then reinforce basic and advanced skills of those who go on to other professions know this.
'Respect the profession' is not a "meme." It's a calling. When the learner is ready, the teacher will appear is a truth. Not for nothing, Jesus was a teacher. Look what they did to him.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)think comparing yourself to a mythological zombie helps your cause, you are sadly mistaken.
ancianita
(36,128 posts)Dial it down.
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)>>>>Then there was the 8th grade math teacher who lured young boys to his classroom after school in order for them to spank each other while the teacher looked on.>>>>
A little levity to break the tension. ( Danielson's teacher observation rubric has made her truckloads of $$$$ as it is the instrument of choice of the reform movement to get teachers removed.)
>>The issues that parents are bringing up regarding problem teachers is a real perception that any educated reasoning parent has run across and anyone who has gone through the public system has suffered.>>>
Is it primarily *parents* that are bringing these "issues" up? Or is it people who see a situation they can exploit for financial or political and then undertake to do so?
Maybe there's something I'm not getting. I retired two years ago after 27 years. Virtually ALL my parents thought I was great and I thought almost all of them were too. Any trouble I had was from other adults ( a few teachers, but more often non-teaching personnel. People don't really understand how many non-teachers there are in a typical public school.) and some administrators... the later mostly in the years after Obama, et al started "reforming" the schools.
I guess it's just because I was/am so wonderful.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)But if you've been teaching 7 years, then you know exactly what I'm talking about. In every district I taught, there were a couple of teachers that were simply doing a piss poor job, if not teaching them misinformation in the process.
I haven't heard of "Danielson's teacher observation rubric". I'll have to look it up.
Sometimes the incompetence was just awful. Every building has that teacher, or teachers, that just gave up and started handing out inflated grades just to keep administrators off their backs.
I taught science for a couple of years, and I had a fellow grade level history teacher actively telling my students that I was teaching them propaganda when we studied the greenhouse effect and global warming. Every single one of his students made As and all they did was have classroom discussions and watch movies. A bunch of my students hurt their test scores because of him.
We know bad teaching.
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)And about the basic wrong-headedness of this "movement" in general.
A couple of "bad" teachers in an entire district? That doesn't sound like bad odds to me. Is that worth ending due process?
I went to HS a loooooong time ago. ( Catholic school, too.) Some of the teachers were better than others. Some of them prepped more and were more inspired by their work. There was a union... but I doubt there was due process. We all did well enough to attend college. ( I think our economic status had a lot to do with that... don't you agree? In other words... we could recover from a "bad" teacher or two. Or from a lot of mediocre ones; which was closer to the case.)
As an adult , I taught sp ed. ( see link). When I started i personally would have fired about 1/2 of my colleagues had I the chance. But it was back in the 80's ...
when it actually WAS hard to get rid of teachers..... at a sort of Alcatraz annex that the principal sent people he couldn't stand to look at anymore.
I was active in the union early on. One of my goals was to get the union contract to work for ... not just the teachers..... but also the students, who were, imo, getting ripped off by some ( not an especially small percentage, btw) of the staff. And by the administrators who allowed... no, ENCOURAGED... the above.
Point: I recognize that bad teaching exists.... and have an actual history of fighting AGAINST it. And a few scars too show for it, if I do say so. . But two things have changed the equation for me:
1. There aren't a lot of Alcatraz sites anymore like the one I described. (None that I know of anyway.) Everyone ( ok; almost everyone) worked hard in the other four sites I worked at in the 90's thru 2012. The vast majority of teachers were good at what they did because they WANTED to be there. They'd trained and studied to do this kind of work. It frankly defies logic to assume that a large # of people so described are going to suddenly burn out and take a vow to simply go thru the motions.
2. The proposed "cures" for the 'bad teacher' epidemic ( which doesn't exist in the first place) are worse than the proverbial "disease." Adding "accountability" in the form of reams of paperwork --- most of it contrived, duplicative, redundant or completely fallacious along with a complex smokescreen set up in the form of all kinds of "data collection" enterprises.
We're setting up what I call a culture of compliance. We are awash in legalisms and mandates. Schools aren't places where kids learn any more. They are places for adults ... esp lawyers and politicians... to be seen as solving "problems".
This kind of "cure" EVERYBODY is better off without.
ClarkeVII
(89 posts)you went to a public school so that makes you an expert about these policies?
Iggo
(47,561 posts)See how that works?
chervilant
(8,267 posts)And, up until I returned to the Ozarks, I was teaching math, so that makes me ESPECIALLY an expert!
(I love how this works! Do I need the sarcasm thingy?)
George II
(67,782 posts)...the subject line is incorrect. Only about 600,000 people watch The View each day.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)George II
(67,782 posts)"Whoopi uses View, 2+ mil viewers, to attack teacher due process. Teacher/admin fights back"
No "weekly".
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)I would explain that I couldn't fit it in the subject line, but you would accuse me of something else.
The word is there...weekly....no law says subject line.
Just like the good old days George II.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)I'm shocked. Really. It's like I've rammed the energizer bunny up my nose and the surprise I feel is coming from the cymbals clashing together on my brain stem.
Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)Since you seem to vacillate between sprinkling personal antecdotal stories in your posts and issuing demands for documented proof from other posters, I was wondering if you could answer the question I asked you last month:
"Does your business involve work with Rhee, Pearson, Broad, Gates, (or any other similar component from the witches brew of profiteers who want to destroy public education and make big bucks from denying non-rich Americans the ability to learn)?
I only ask because it would go a long way towards explaining why duty called the educator-businessman to dust off the old account and suddenly re-enter the fray -- to forcefully back an education policy that could be described as 'the Iraq invasion' of education policies, while making thinly veiled insulting false accusations against a demonstrably good educator and Democrat like mad."
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Didn't notice your question last month. Sorry. But no, I am not in cahoots with book publishers.
Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)You ARE a font of knowledge.
Regarding last month's post, you can tell when someone talks to you on this site, when the 'my posts' tab lights up.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)But it lights up only once despite multiple posts.
Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)But your winning personality makes tuning in to your posts worthwhile, anyway.
George II
(67,782 posts)Iggo
(47,561 posts)Last week, anti-victim (Sometimes women provoke a beating.)
This week, anti-teacher. (Some teachers are bad, so screw 'em all.)
Can't wait for next week!
Jeff In Milwaukee
(13,992 posts)I think this was an SNL skit some years ago (obviously):
Tonight, the top five reasons Not to see Whoopi Goldberg's new Movie, "The Associate."
Reason number five - "Jumpin' Jack Flash."
Reason number four - "Burglar."
Reason number three - "Sister Act 2."
Reason number two - "Eddie."
And the number one reason not to see Whoopi Goldberg's new movie - Whoopi's in it.
ClarkeVII
(89 posts)for our the problems in our society. Are the lowest of the low IMOP.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Moving on...
Mc Mike
(9,114 posts)and dispassionately debating the education issues at hand.
Response to madfloridian (Original post)
ClarkeVII This message was self-deleted by its author.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts).., taxes and politics.
bigwillq
(72,790 posts)I can't stand that show. lol
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)The hallmark of a great teacher is making complex ideas understandable.
Understandable even to people on The View.
Seriously... if Randi Weingarten could *teach* like that ( and she can't; she's a lawyer) corporate reformers would be moving away from schools back to collateralized debt obligations.
( Their fetish in the 2000s)
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)But this thread has really brought out the "teacher haters"....finally I said the word haters. lol
They are out in force, taking advantage of the new anything goes policies.
I still have trouble trusting Randi Weingarten, even when she is sounding more supportive of teachers. I then remember she was part of the Broad Institute's training of school supervisors. They are the ones who come on like crazy and forcefully change any and everything public schools.
questionseverything
(9,657 posts)please do not worry about those "haters".....there are only 4-5 on the entire thread and they have brought no evidence, just made up stories
i almost spit coffee on my keyboard over the math teacher luring boys to the back to spank each other....afterall if parents knew something like that was happening (in my town) they would be arrested, tenure or not...so i think the system works just fine
makes ya wonder what was wrong with the parents in that cough*fictitious* place huh?
Smarmie Doofus
(14,498 posts)I'm from her local. Have watched her up close. Her home union is a shambles with people jumping ship ( retiring and resigning) faster than you can say Titanic. Basically the 2005 contract RW pushed through which ended seniority transfers and incentivized building principals to create hostile work environments to get rid of their experienced ( expensive) teachers.
Then she moved *UP*. To AFT in DC.
My opinion is she's working for the other side. I don't know whether she KNOWS it or not but she's working for the other side.
FloriTexan
(838 posts)
Sancho
(9,070 posts)If you check with the state statistics. Some have their certificates revoked, and a large number voluntarily resign under pressure. I'm sure other states are similar. Everyone has stories, but teachers are fired everyday for cause, and more often than bad doctors, lawyers, or other licensed professionals.
It is simply not true that due process will protect a really bad teacher, as long as the district follows the rules. This whole effort to get rid of due process is yet another effort to destroy public education and eventually privatize it.
this is all a rue to demoralize teachers in an effort to privatize public education.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Yes, this is an effort to destroy public education....and the first step is discrediting the schools and teachers.
Must admit they have done a damn good job with their propaganda.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)The current setup in most states certainly does protect bad teachers. If there are statistics that somehow show otherwise, then please, bring them to the table.
Sancho
(9,070 posts)Every state is different and most states hide non-renewals as personel actions. I had access to fl from a state reps database by each district for research. I'm sure someone could get information from public hiring records one school district at a time, but I don't know of a universal link. In fl, about 2400 a year are non-renewed. Some are new, others with tenure do something illegal or whatever. Some lose their license. An unknown number quit when the district threatens the teacher. I have seen similar data from sc and ga. I think that it would be a nice project to counter the arguments about firing teachers. Every district let's teachers go for cause sometimes.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)I'll continue to stand by the contention that removing tenured teachers for cause is a long difficult and often unsuccessful endeavor.
TheKentuckian
(25,029 posts)Both more than reminiscent of tried and true union breaking talking points.
Sancho
(9,070 posts)What I said was simple and I'll give an example from here.
First, school districts (and sometimes state DOEs) don't release lots of personnel actions. If people are non-renewed (contracts terminated) or if they are put in front of a state board to lose their license or if a teacher is told "if you don't quit we are going to fire you", etc., etc.. no one puts that in the newspaper or publicly counts the number!!
Behind closed doors, you can see that my county has not opened a new school in several years, and you can see that maybe 250 teachers a year retire (or leave employment). You can also see that they might hire 500 teachers this summer on the employment records. What's the difference? It's beginning teachers who are non-renewed without cause (legal in most states for the first few years) and sometimes because the teacher is not any good. Also, there are a teachers who disappear over the summer, move away, or don't come back. Every school has a few every year. In my county there are a few hundred out of about 5000 who are NON-RENEWED. Those teachers got a letter saying they were fired. In some cases a cause was well-known (you've been drinking on the job and our counseling program didn't work or we found out you were arrested for child porn last year). In some cases, it's a surprise. Regardless, MOST teachers don't fight.
Why? If you know you are guilty, you move on. If you think you are not guilty and fight it, you might lose your license to teach in the state...but if you simply resign, you might be able to go and teach somewhere else!! Happens all the time.
The district doesn't want to reveal the problems because they don't want to be sued by the parents or found liable for the teacher's actions. In other words, that's more common than you know.
So it is very possible to fire a teacher and it happens all the time. It's just not on the front page unless it's sensational!!
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Whatever. I played that game once. I was RIFed once, and I saw worse teachers than me keep their jobs while seeing teachers better than me trying to start over again in a new district, and again without any due process.
What you describe is just another symptom of the problems in public school, this one related to the authority that administrators and local leaders on the school board abuse.
George II
(67,782 posts)...that have been removed over time? I've read some figures but if I posted them the messenger would be shot in lieu of the numbers being reviewed objectively.
I dare say the number is extremely low, lower than what one would consider the number of poor performing teachers.
ancianita
(36,128 posts)"... If teacher tenure is an important obstacle to achievement, Mississippi (with no teacher tenure) should have stellar schools and Massachusetts (with teacher tenure) should have failing ones. Instead, it’s the other way around. Correlation is not causation, of course, but across the country the states without tenure are at the bottom of performance rankings. States with the highest-achieving public schools have tenure (and teacher unions)...."
http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/06/11/does-tenure-protect-bad-teachers-or-good-schools/protections-of-teacher-tenure-do-not-hurt-students
Tenure is a straw man.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Oh well, I guess any post with the word teacher in it just draws an angry crowd. The propaganda since Reagan against teachers has been so intense....and it is worked well.
Sancho
(9,070 posts)The whole idea of tenure (continuing contracts) is to prevent unfair and arbitrary firing of contracted professionals. The school district agrees to the CBA (collective bargaining agreement) and most of the time the rules are spelled out to fire a teacher. If the district doesn't follow the rules, they often loose the challenge.
You should go to your local school board and ask how many teachers were hired last year. Then ask how many retired. The difference are a combination of those who were non-renewed (fired) and those who choose to voluntarily leave. You won't know how many are which, but IF they will tell you how many are fired (non-renewed) the number is a much larger per cent than you would likely guess.
Very few teachers who are fired actually file a union grievance or fight a non-renewal. If they did something wrong (committed a crime or something), the union has already advised them that they will likely lose a costly fight or that the union won't support them. If they did not do something wrong and chose to fight, the vast majority of conflicts result in a closed door settlement (sometimes resignation, moving someone to another school, giving a good recommendation in return for a move to another district, etc.). Only a very few cases actually get to the school board or legal level.
It's not hard to fire (non-renew) a truly bad teacher. Fortunately, the majority of teachers are actually pretty good! For the few bad ones there is no defense unless the administration has made mistakes with evidence or process. Those are the "cases" that you seem focused on, but they don't represent the majority of personnel actions.
In actual fact, schools non-renew virtually every teacher that they know and document are truly bad. Parents often want a teacher "fired" and think they are bad when the real evidence is based on some small incident or value disagreement. Those teachers won't be fired. OTOH, no school or HR will EVER publicize how many teachers were non-renewed for drug and alcohol abuse, academic incompetence, or having an affair with an administrator on school grounds (true story that I witnessed). Have you ever seen any HR from any company produce such reports? If not, then don't assume that bad teachers can't be fired. They can be and they often are...only the schools who try to fire people without due process are challenged by the union.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)I know of two who were let go on tenure, but only because they were teaching next to me or in the hall. I knew the circumstances, it was handled well and quickly.
The few times the news gets hold of sex crimes or felonies it is sensationalized and made public. Then the teacher is out of the classroom at once....guilt to be determined later.
It's really hard to know just how many. That is not the teacher's fault, it is not the fault of the union. It's a teacher's choice how to handle it.
Teachers are such perfect targets now.
New Florida teachers are no problem anymore....they can be fired for anything.
Sancho
(9,070 posts)The Chicago Teachers Union opposes the policy and has filed grievances and a complaint with the Illinois Educational Labor Relations Board, according to the CTU website.
Non-renewals in 2007: 775 of 7,000, or 11 percent
Non-renewals in 2011: 370 of 4,000, or 9 percent
-------------------------------------------------------
In Florida (with about 175,000 teachers in the state), the percent of reported non-renewals is a little more than 1% on various surveys and reports. Of course, that is an underestimate because there are many who voluntarily resign.
I know one Florida district reported a 6 % non-renewal.
At any rate, the idea that getting rid of tenure will improve teacher quality is based on the false premise that teacher can't be fired for cause - they are often non-renewed. In fact, getting rid of due process to make it easier to fire teachers will likely lead to lower teacher quality in my view.
George II
(67,782 posts)Sancho
(9,070 posts)but in every state or district there will not be a public report of non-renewed teacher contracts for a variety of self-serving reasons. Here are some...
1.) they don't want to be liable for the non-renewed teacher's actions
2.) there may be a pattern of a protected group being fired more often
3.) they don't want the union or labor board or anyone else to spot problem administrators, etc.
4.) they don't want fired teachers to hire lawyers who dig through the data for due process errors
Soooo....you can get data from some DOE's where the state survey's every district every year. In Florida, it may be a report that is a public record but you have to make a legal public records request to get it.
Sometime accreditation reports for your regional accreditation require rehire data and those reports are sometimes available.
Usually, you have to go though the data from each school board and check the number of hires vs. the number of resignations and retirements. A few districts will have an HR report for the local school board with that information. You can infer how many were non-renewed. Districts will have minutes of the board actions where they openly fire a teacher who was in the paper for committing a crime or abusing a child or something criminal, but they will rarely or never report that a teacher was non-renewed if there wasn't a public scandal, and you'll never find out if they resigned under duress. A few researchers have done surveys and some others have recently decided we need to know more about this, but I haven't seen any national reports.
For the state rep I counted the non-renewals for the state for several years and it was typically about 2,400 in FL based on state surveys from the districts to the DOE. A few hundred faced license revocation at the state level each year. The surveys don't say who was threatened in to quitting, but only those who taught one year and were non-renewed the next year.
George II
(67,782 posts)ancianita
(36,128 posts)children.
Sancho
(9,070 posts)These are ONLY the teachers where the state took action against the credential of the teacher. In my county (Pinellas), there are 479 actions in the last 30 years for example. Just pick a county and look at the list.
Across 67 school districts, that number is in the thousands.
This does not even touch the much larger number of teachers who were non-renewed without any report or action against their teaching license!! The majority of contract non-renewals and forced resignations are never reported to the state for license action (which only happens if there is a criminal charge or a serious ethical violation). Even then, many schools accept a resignation and don't follow up. This list is a small subset of the actions.
As I said, teachers can be fired (and lose their license) and it happens often. Without due process and union protection and collective bargaining agreements, I'm sure the list would be much larger.
Whoopi and Rhee and Brown and all the others calling for an end to "tenure" are simply full of BS to claim that unions prevent firing. Unions are very useful at enforcing due process when schools aren't fair, but no one can protect a truly bad teacher.
The whole effort with the pundits is to privatize schools, get rid of unions, and feed propaganda to the public. There's really no way to make a valid claim that unions or tenure are responsible for a lack of quality in schools. Actually, without unions the quality of schools would certainly be lower.
George II
(67,782 posts)In those 37 years, there were "only" (I know, that's subjective) about 3500 suspensions of four or more years or outright revocations/dismissals/denials, etc. Of those there appears to be only about 2000 permanent actions.
From what I can find, there are about 175,000 public school teachers in Florida, of those 2,000 have been permanently dismissed in one manner or another over 37 years (~50 per year).
This is for the entire state of Florida? Over 37 years?
Sancho
(9,070 posts)As I keep saying and you don't seem to accept is that these are the tip of the iceberg where the state was putting a note on their credential. Would you hire them? That data base is state action at the BOE in the capital and districts were only required to send in actions a few years ago, so it's pretty incomplete before 2000. What you are looking at means that the school district was obliged to have a hearing because a crime was reported, a lawsuit was filed, or they were the worst of the worst.
About 1% per year (actually close to 1.5%) are non-renewed by the districts in Florida - which is about 2000 to 2500 per year! Of those, a subset of cases are represented by the union. Of the ones who are represented by the union, a majority lose their case anyway. In my experience, about one third to one half the union represented teachers negotiate a "deal" like voluntarily transferring or resigning in return for a positive letter of reference or something. The union doesn't have to represent a teacher who clearly violated the law or their contract, and the union observes to see that due process occurs, but no one can fix an unfixable teacher. Only a very small number of challenges go to the step process, mediation, arbitration, or court action. Those are the ones that are cited as "union" prevention of "firing teachers" and "tenure protection", but they really only occasionally.
My wife and I have taught for 37 years now (kindergarten through university). I've been on both sides of the issues, and helped our local state delegation do research on topics of interest in education. Our legislature specifically asked how many were non-renewed a few years ago, and annually the number in Florida was 2400 to 2800. I'll see if I can recover the report. I'm sure it's in the legislative record, but that's massive.
The districts will NEVER report the teachers who were let go by simply denying them a contract! They don't report personnel actions, forced resignations, or simple non-renewals. Teachers who "resign" will often leave with their teaching credential and a clean letter (even if the district doesn't want them) and they will apply to jobs in other locations. Even teachers who have continuing contracts (tenure) are non-renewed if they commit a crime, violate the contract, or don't complete their recertification. The district simply tells them that they will face non-renewal and lose of their license unless they resign. The only teachers who call the union and fight it out are ones who have done nothing wrong or are being unfairly harassed - and those teachers are exactly why we have tenure and due process! Just because Rhee or Brown or some ball coach who lost too many games so they made him principal (true story) doesn't like a teacher or wants to make room for their daughter-in-law (true story) is NOT a reason to fire an existing teacher! That includes VAM formulas, complaints about the required readings, political parents who don't want evolution taught in science (happened to me!), or racists who want to get rid of minority teachers, etc., etc.
If a teacher is really bad, they can be fired, even with tenure. That actually happens. It's a straw man to blame tenure or unions for protecting bad teachers. It's much more likely that a crazy administrator or unfair policy costs a good teacher a job and actually damages the kids! That's why we have tenure and due process and that's why we need to keep it.
George II
(67,782 posts)First, included in my summary were denials, not just revocations.
So if a dismissed/non-renewed/denied teacher (among a still unspecified number overall) leaves a particular district, that teacher can't go to another district and get a job?
Unfortunately I have to conclude, without specifics (which keep being alluded to), that what you're providing is only "anecdotal" information, which others in this discussion have been criticized for providing.
octoberlib
(14,971 posts)goddamn MONEY!
While Parent Trigger was first promoted by a small charter school operator in California, it was taken up and launched into hyperdrive by two controversial right-wing organizations: the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) and the Heartland Institute. http://www.prwatch.org/news/2012/09/11763/wont-back-down-film-pushes-alec-parent-trigger-proposal
****************************************************
Before founding PTP, Brown raised this issue in a Wall Street Journal op-ed in July 2012. But what she failed to disclose was that her husband, Dan Senor, sits on the board of the New York affiliate of StudentsFirst, an education lobbying group founded by Michelle Rhee, the controversial former Washington, DC, chancellor. Rhee made a name for herself as public enemy No. 1 of the teachers' unions and has become the torchbearer of the charter school movement. In 2012, her "bipartisan grassroots organization" backed 105 candidates in state races, 88 percent of them Republicans. (Senor was also the spokesman for the Coalition Provisional Authority following the invasion of Iraq and served as a foreign policy adviser to Mitt Romney in 2012.)
But there is much more about PTP that is less than transparent, including its sources of funding and its overall agenda. As a 501(c)(4) nonprofit, PTP may keep its donors' identities secret and spend money in electoral campaigns, so long as political activity doesn't consume the majority of its time and money.
Despite its nonpartisan billing, Brown's nonprofit used Revolution Agency, a Republican consulting firm, to produce the mayoral attack ad. Its partners include Mike Murphy, a well-known pundit and former Romney strategist; Mark Dion, former chief of staff to Sen. Pat Toomey (R-Pa.); and Evan Kozlow, former deputy director of the National Republican Congressional Committee. The domain name for PTP's website was registered by two Revolution employees: Jeff Bechdel, Mitt Romney's former Florida spokesman, and Matt Leonardo, who describes himself as "happily in self-imposed exile from advising Republican candidates." http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/10/campbell-brown-new-york-schools-rhee
The goal here is to privatize the public school system and reduce teacher pay and qualifications. One of the ALEC bills the NC legislature tried to pass last session was to reduce teacher qualifications to a HS degree and a 12 week training course so charter schools don't have to pay them hardly anything. This is we're we're headed. The attack on due process is the tip of the iceberg and the right wing extremists are ecstatic! Campbell Brown has been running ads in the NY area attacking Democratic candidates. Right before the mid-terms to boot! The wingnuts probably think they've died and gone to heaven! Their plan is working!
eppur_se_muova
(36,275 posts)There was an earlier thread about Campbell Brown's right-wing connections ... enought to bring her impartiality very, very much *more* into question (as it should have been to begin with).
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)this sudden brouhaha about teaching is now a "newsworthy" event, they won't get it.
And the real reason WHY is the money. There is plenty of money to have the Corporatists come in and re-vamp the government run public schools.
steve2470
(37,457 posts)Orsino
(37,428 posts)...and has updated her conscience accordingly.
world wide wally
(21,749 posts)Campbell Brown.... And fuck the rest of them as well.
My response has been to ask them to come into my 8th grade Science class for a week and show me exactly how it's done. They seem to be such experts at managing rooms of 30 plus 13 and 14 year olds at a time. Plus the little beginning readers on up to 18 year olds in the inner city.
We "ineffectual" teachers need your expertise, Whoopie.
Come show us how it's done.
bvar22
(39,909 posts).....and a DURec for this thread.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)I am arguing that principals should rise from the ranks of teachers and THEY should be evaluating the teachers in their school.
world wide wally
(21,749 posts)realize that it takes money to run a school. And that a teacher only teaches...he/she can not force a student to learn.
When that is done, I am open to any criticism you or Whoopie or Campbell or my principal might have... In the meantime, how about a raise?
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)However, per most teachers I know, the profession is already flooded with GREAT teachers. As such, supply and demand dictates that a raise is not needed.
world wide wally
(21,749 posts)joeglow3
(6,228 posts)world wide wally
(21,749 posts)joeglow3
(6,228 posts)Pay is equal to what is needed to attract a sufficient number of qualified workers. It appears you do not like this when it is applied to teachers. Why is that?
ancianita
(36,128 posts)
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Tenure is a due process issue?
Does the term meaning, "having survived the probationary period; and thereby, earning a property right in the employment"? If that is the case, then I support the teachers' tenure fight.
I work in HR at the University level ... Apparently, the term "Tenure" has a very different meaning at the high school (public school) level.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)I think in NY it is also 3 years. Not sure about other states. That is quite a bit of time to be fair to all involved.
Yes, I think it is different at college level, and I can not help you with that.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)3 years is an outrageously long "probationary period" for any job.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)because the administrators are not working fast enough to fire the ineffective ones. Every thread about teachers rights is like this. No matter how we respond in support of teachers, they keep repeating the same things over and over.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)not at all.
From what I've read, everyone supports the "Good" teachers, everyone wants the "Bad" teachers gone.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)And that is what is being pushed. That is what Campbell Brown is urging in NY...and what Whoopi is supporting. They are not just saying do away with tenure for bad teachers. What they are doing will deprive good teachers also.
My point is that it is NOT the fault of good teachers that districts take so long to fire bad ones.
In our district if there is a real problem, that teacher is out of the classroom pending court proceedings.
Sancho
(9,070 posts)Teachers used to get "continuing contracts" so that: If they stayed certified and if they had satisfactory evaluations and if they didn't commit a crime, they were automatically renewed after 3-5 years of probation. Those contracts are no longer available for new teachers in Florida, but still hold for teachers hired in the past.
Professors also have a probation and evaluation process, but tenure additionally has the protection of academic freedom (to teach or research controversial subjects), intellectual property rights, and also status for faculty governance (which is often required by accreditation agencies).
Regardless, both teachers and professors with "tenure" or "continuing contracts" have due process rights as a result of the tenure. They can't be arbitrarily laid off or fired without cause and are entitled to witnesses, hearings, and mediation as spelled out in collective bargaining agreements (usually). Without tenure, teachers and professors could (and have been) fired for any number of political or personal reasons without any process or protection.
Frankly, most teachers and professors who are fired don't seek union representation, file grievances, or file lawsuits. Most just leave and look for another job. The ones who have a case and choose to fight are supported by unions (usually they have to be a member, but not always). Unions are also helpful in evaluating the situation and advising the teacher/professor. Unions also settle many disputes before they become personnel actions.
Administrators are often upset because they lose fights when they don't follow the process, collect good evidence, etc. Unions are pretty experienced with these issues, so the Rhee's of the world don't like the fight, especially when the teacher or professor is doing a good job as assigned. That's the issue on this thread...
Chakab
(1,727 posts)madfloridian
(88,117 posts)"I love teachers, I respect them fully, but who is respecting the students?" said McCarthy, who suggested tenure protects unsatisfactory teachers.
Goldberg agreed.
"I am a thinker, I think about what's best for us. To me, bad teachers don't do anybody any good, so the union needs to recognize that parents are not going to stand for it anymore," Goldberg said. "And you teachers, in your union, you need to say, 'These bad teachers are making us look bad.'"
The tenure gripes on the ABC talk show came a week after an advocacy group led by former CNN anchor Campbell Brown filed a lawsuit challenging teacher job protections in New York. The lawsuit was filed on behalf of seven families, who claim their children are receiving poor instruction from unsatisfactory tenured teachers. In June, a judge in California struck down laws that offer teacher tenure in a similar lawsuit.
Conservative political commentator Nicolle Wallace noted on "The View" that the issue of teacher tenure has proved divisive in the traditionally labor-friendly Democratic Party, with some liberals taking a hard line against teachers unions. Two former Obama administration aides recently cut ties with a Democratic firm because of their support for Brown and her lawsuit.
Indeed the attacks on teachers by Democrats is taking me to a new place in my political thinking. I am voting in this Democratic primary in Florida for Charlie Crist. After that I may change my affiliation to No Party affiliation....and I will be in good company with the 3 million plus others in that category in Florida.
Not for sure yet, a big step for me...I am been a Democrat since I registered to vote. But I have had enough of the insults toward teachers who are good caring teachers because administrators and districts can't get off their lazy butts to fire the few incompetent ones.
I have had enough of a Democratic administration attacking teachers' unions and then pretending they are not. When you take away rights earned through the years by union negotiation.....you are union busting.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)specialized degree) then try to pay back her student loans on a teacher's pay while raising a family.
What wealthy people like Whoopi don't realize is just how hard teachers work to try to teach children and how poorly prepared children are for the classroom.
Seriously, I would listen to what Whoopi had to say about this if she taught school for two years and then spoke up.
lark
(23,136 posts)I thought you were better than this, so have to say I'm very disappointed in you and your efforts to gut teachers' protections.
mainstreetonce
(4,178 posts)The lawyers who make the process of firing incompetent teachers impossible.
The due process granted by tenure would work fine if school systems could afford the legal process.
geardaddy
(24,931 posts)KamaAina
(78,249 posts)on this one issue?!
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)It's the fact that both parties support the privatization of public schools that enabled it.
That's the sad part.
Cryptoad
(8,254 posts)how many people do not realize how political our education sys is!..... due process is protecting far far more good teachers who might be fired because of their political views than bad teachers whom the admin will not write up because of laziness. I have yet to see a process whereby all teachers can be fairly graded and compared. geez
I thought Whoppie was smarter than this!
mainstreetonce
(4,178 posts)that just for budget reasons,school systems would love to be able to easily replace experienced teachers with new lower salary replacements every few years.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Thank you, madfloridian.
emsimon33
(3,128 posts)I was very disappointed in his doing so and sent an email to him stating my disappointment.
Again, I always so enjoy your posts. I learn a lot and they are so well written.
Thank you!
madfloridian
(88,117 posts) ClarkeVII
(89 posts)but I am having a hard time watching his show now
nikto
(3,284 posts)Making money destroys some people on a moral level.
Whoopi has been destroyed, and comes-off as a true scumbag traitor to her roots.
Whoopi=Elitist POS.
Fact, not opinion.
Sancho
(9,070 posts)Last edited Wed Aug 6, 2014, 06:12 PM - Edit history (1)
First, schools who non-renew teachers win 3 to 1:
Zirkel, P. (2010). Teacher tenure is not the real problem. Phi Delta Kappan, 92(1), 76-77.
--------------------------------
Tenure is not a life-time job guarantee.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/answer-sheet/teachers/the-myth-of-teacher-tenure.html
------------------------------
Most teachers who are non-renewed for "skill" reasons are usually "classroom management", which many teachers think are a problem for the parents and administration - not something they can do much about!
http://academic.emporia.edu/esrs/vol47/neill_etal.pdf
--------------------------------
Teachers are fired for budget and political reasons, not for incompetence:
http://blogs.ajc.com/get-schooled-blog/2010/05/05/non-renewals-the-scarlet-letter-of-teaching/
----------------------------------
Most people don't understand what "tenure" is:
http://neatoday.org/2010/09/17/what-tenure-is-and-what-it’s-not/
-----------------------------------
Teachers are asked to resign first, and often move to another district even when the Principal intends to non-renew. They get positive letters of reference from the school where they were non-renewed.
http://dc.etsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1135&context=etd
-----------------------------------
http://www.naplesnews.com/community/bonita-banner/report-florida-collier-fire-more-new-teachers-nati
Districts do not track non-renewals, but often it is not based on competence...so it's a mess (typical snip):
"An exact comparison with the report's numbers was not possible for Lee County — in the past, the district has not kept track of teacher firings based on years of employment, but instead tracked teachers fired within the 97-day probationary period. In the 2008-09 school year, the last full school year, 0.03 percent of teachers in the county were fired in the 97-day period. On the other hand, more than 6 percent of the entire instructional force in Lee County was either fired or did not have contracts renewed in the past school year, which was, in part, a reflection of budget cuts that led to layoffs and reassignments.
However, the district has put a new human resources tracking system in place within the past year, and can pinpoint at what stage in a teacher's employment he or she was fired. In the school year to date, 0.4 percent of teachers fired were in their first three years of employment, versus a 1.1 percent firing rate for experienced teachers. In the current year, there have been no budget-related layoffs, so the firing rate of contract teachers stands out because it approaches the nationwide rate for firings of tenured teachers, and far exceeds the state average."
Skeeter Barnes
(994 posts)to see the hate for unions here at DU.
ancianita
(36,128 posts)ever, are good instructional leaders.
Almost all principals consult with teachers on developmental sequences, best practices, individualized instruction, etc. at the planning stage. But on the very structures that affect student achievement -- class size and time on task -- they NEVER consult with teachers -- neither do they consult with their staffs about pupil-teacher ratio, per pupil per year spending, or about making the paper load more efficient and relevant. They do work hard on test prep training, though.
I've worked for ten principals. Not one of them thought that observing and evaluating teachers was anything but a pain in the ass. They felt put upon, put up their professional fronts, showed off a little content knowledge, but seldom took post observation conferences seriously, and mostly went by student failure rates and attendance rates when comparing what they observed.
Unless there were glaring classroom management problems, teachers in the three high schools at which I taught were guided mostly by their peers' quality practices in the above-mentioned areas, and their own intelligent and innovative use of professional training. They rarely, if ever, got 'developed' by a principal.
The field professionals are the best source of student excellence in spite of high class sizes and low time on task structure that rigs teachers to fail.
Every goddamned year, August is National Attack Public Schools and Teachers Month in America.
The public had better learn which educational experts are both on their side and the best.
Emelina
(188 posts)I knew a teacher who was one of those "Kids are here to learn" sort of guys. He got along with the administration quite well. Then a principal was hired who apparently thought a teacher's #1 duty was to coach football, basketball, etc. This teacher was an academic and due to tenure he was able to decline the demands of the principal to learn a sport and coach it.
Needless to say he could not be fired but the principal made his life a living hell. He lost some of the classes he had developed himself but endured until he was able to retire.
Rex
(65,616 posts)Yeah...didn't think so. YES there are bad teachers...usually followed by bad administrators. It does happen, but MOST teachers are good at their job and WANT to teach...not just a paycheck.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)Why? Way back in the late 80s or early 90s, my local public library was holding a silent auction to help fund the transition to a computerized system for inventory and circulation. I bid $25 on a signed poster of Whoopi reading a book, with the usual pro-reading slogan on the poster. I laminated it, and that poster was first in my school library, and then in my classroom, every single year since.
I saw the thread, and thought, "I'm going to have to take that poster down." It was disheartening, to say the least.
Well, it wasn't as bad as I thought. Not good, but not a flat out attack on teachers. It was clear, though, that she's bought the propaganda about "bad teachers." Not that there aren't bad teachers, but they are a very small fraction of what people envision. I was clear, though, that tenure was being promoted as something it's not.
The blonde, though...put me in a room with her. Please. I'd like to educate her.
The response is great. I hope she "gets" it, and even more, says so publicly.
maced666
(771 posts)But I don't know where her head is at sometimes.
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)and his minions in establishing the education dreams of grover norquist and william bennet.
If Obama and arne were against privatizing schools and kicking teachers, she would be against it. I'm afraid there is no thought behind her actions.
Jakes Progress
(11,122 posts)follower. Like many, she supports anything the administration supports. It's the whole "personality politics" thing. They don't know anything about the issues, and they are too dumb or lazy to find out, so they just spout the same rhetoric as the administration. Their man is in charge, so they just support the same policies blindly. It is so much easier than thinking.
If Democrats don't protect our children and our schools, who will?
