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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsThis fucking homicidal asshole is an Israeli Major General
In Gaza, there is no such thing as 'innocent civilians'Giora Eiland
Ynet
Published: 08.05.14
...just a taste:
You probably have two questions now. First, why should Gaza's residents suffer? Well, they are to blame for this situation just like Germany's residents were to blame for electing Hitler as their leader and paid a heavy price for that, and rightfully so
The rest: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4554583,00.html
Major-General (res.) Giora Eiland is a former head of Israel's National Security Council.
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The Magistrate
(95,248 posts)Leaving to one side that his claim has absolutely no foundation in law, that there is no way in which voting for a government which then goes to war renders anyone a combatant, and that there is no circumstance under present law in which cutting off the food supply to a civil populace is not considered a crime of war, the thing fails even in what it attempts to pass as hard-boiled analysis.
It is certainly true the population of Germany paid a high price in the Second World War. Civilians were taken as target of massive and indiscriminate bombing campaigns, lasting for years. And I do not consider this to have been criminal. It was an effective means of assailing an aggressor engaged in wholesale atrocity; indeed it was for a time the only effective means of assailing that atrocious aggressor. I am sympathetic to arguments of necessity.
But to pretend the actions of Hamas, and the capabilities of Hamas, equate to those of Nazi Germany, is beneath contempt, and further, can only be done by someone with great contempt for the people he is addressing, if he actually expects them to swallow the claimed equivalence and smile and nod afterwards. The Nazis wielded one of the greatest military capabilities ever seen on this planet; it took the combined exertion of foes many times their number and of much greater industrial power, to bring them to a halt and then to defeat. And all the while they were engaged in murdering millions.
Hamas in its capabilities compares to this rather like a fire-cracker to a string of half-ton bombs. Hamas may well dream of doing everything Hitler did, but Hamas is utterly incapable of actually doing it, and is certainly not actually doing it at present. So there is no way that one could plead necessity, that one is admittedly doing great evil, but only to ward off a greater evil actually present and certainly impending, and that one has no other means available to do this but the commission of great evil. That is a respectable argument, that can be pressed in dire straits, and may be necessary in the direst --- but it does not apply here.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Sigh! Some just don't get it! 
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)The talk of making genocide acceptable is something that I have always feared would come of this conflict. Hamas bears some responsibility; after all, their charter calls for the annihilation of Israel. However, Likud's charter explicitly calls for the denial of a Palestinian state. Isn't that at least as bad?
General Eiland's rhetoric -- and Mr. Gordon's that was deleted from The Times of Israel and Ayelet Shaked's in the Knesset -- are scarier than anything that comes from to come from Hamas for the simple reason that the Israelis can actually carry out this act on Gaza while Hamas has no such capabilities against the Israelis.
If the Likud government halts its campaign today, it will still go down as one of the worst atrocities in recent history. And while some on the street will call Netanyahu a butcher, none will lift a finger against him.
The Magistrate
(95,248 posts)I agree on that point completely.
And I agree further that, dark as the dreams of Hamas may be, dark as they are, they have no capability to put them into practice; it is otherwise with the darkest dreamers of Israel's military and political leadership.
GitRDun
(1,846 posts)During and right after the war, the American strategic bombing surveys conducted in Germany and Japan concluded that “city busting” had surprisingly little impact on war production, in part because aircraft and major arms construction had been moved underground.
[link:http://eppc.org/publications/our-conduct-in-war/|]
City busting, as it was known then did not turn out to be as effective as targeted infrastructure hits. I think its fair to say that there is a kind of city busting going on in Gaza, albeit not effecting as many people.
I would hope after this failed attempt to bust Gaza, Israel might try another tactic to achieve a lasting peace. Just my opinion.
The Magistrate
(95,248 posts)In reading it, it must be borne in mind it had political purpose in context of inter-service rivalry, and the drive to establish the Air Force as an independent arm in the United States.
Impeding war production was far from the sole purpose of the bombing campaign, which had important effects on moral, and diverted a great deal of production to defense against bombing: the massive arrays of anti-aircraft cannon could just as well have been anti-tank guns and heavy field pieces, the hundreds of night fighters could just as easily have been light and medium bombers and more single engined fighters, and had such an increased portion of such resources been deployed in Russia during '43 and early '44, the Red Army would at the very least had a far more difficult time of it. The effects on civilian moral were different from those predicted by early air power theorists, but serious nonetheless. Theory before the war held that a population could be moved against its government by punishment from the air, moved to political action to demand peace, moved to civil disorder and defiance, even. What actually happened was that mass bombing produced a profound sense of hopelessness and defeatism, which affected efficiency and diligence at every level and in every endeavor, and was largely beyond the reach of even the most rigorous totalitarian enforcement of 'stern measures' to address and rectify. When the people at large are convinced they are going to lose, it is only a matter of time before defeat becomes reality on the battlefield.
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)Followed closely by that other person's remarks about 'sometimes genocide is ok' (notan exact quote, but relayed the gist)
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)supporting them? Arming them, financing them, making Congressional declarations of unbridled support for them?
onenote
(42,724 posts)He retired from any form of government service eight years ago.
He's an asshole with disgusting asshole views. But he's not an "Israeli official".
atreides1
(16,084 posts)And he's a Deputy Secretary for the Likud Party.
onenote
(42,724 posts)Both of them are assholes. One is an asshole who is government.
One is an asshole who is not in government.
If someone posted that Feiglin was a former Deputy Speaker, I would have (and I hope you would have) demanded the poster correct their information. So why not demand that the OP correct the information in this thread?
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Million average citizens in Israel combined, is a total dickwad and a maniacally murderous scumbag
BTW, it is the continual "retiring" officials who then get promoted from their job as a mere general (or Knesset member, or US Congress member, etc) to a far more important position inside a company that sells weaponry, or processes pharmaceuticals, or develops GMO's that wield the power inside governments. Especially after they drift back from the executive level position in one of those companies, and go back into government. (Usually as an agency head, or the director of some sub division of an important agency.
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)Plus, the christians will throw their support behind Israel because they are god's chosen people until the end times come when they will be destroyed.
It's another problem made exponentially worse because we are dealing with people who believe in gods and boogiemen.
Every member of Congress will kiss Israel's ass out of fear of losing re-election or because of twisted religious priorities.
AlbertCat
(17,505 posts)Don't forget, criticizing Jews means you HATE them and are a Anti-semite or a Nazi...or something....
Response to AlbertCat (Reply #47)
truebluegreen This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to NightWatcher (Reply #21)
Name removed Message auto-removed
frylock
(34,825 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Hope the mods let us play with one every now and then. They are so efficient at troll-busting they're almost too good.
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)All because they were victims?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)around the world. Maybe our Congressmembers should worry about issues the people are worried about, not those whose financial support they are trying to get. I see a slight shift in the attitude towards Israel's Govt even in our own media.
Israel should remember how often the tide of US support for former allies has changed throughout our history and start making friends among those they are currently alienating with whom they will have to live should the US suddenly decide they don't unconditionally support them anymore. It's happened to others, when they were no longer useful.
malaise
(269,103 posts)Show me your friends and I'll tell you who you are.
It took very long for vested interests to turn against Hitler.
That is all.
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)
NightWatcher
(39,343 posts)Sure, we tortured some folks...
Is it an attempt to downplay the seriousness of it? If so, fail. (not you but Obama)
noiretextatique
(27,275 posts)and to excuse "moving forward" instead of prosecuting bush, inc for war crimes. epic FAIL, Obama!
Xipe Totec
(43,890 posts)
kjones
(1,053 posts)+1
onenote
(42,724 posts)So, no he is not an Israeli Major General. Maybe change "is" to "was" while you're at it.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)onenote
(42,724 posts)He retired in 2003.
He's 62 years old and not subject to being called for duty, even as a reservist.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)OK, consider it changed.
onenote
(42,724 posts)Guess I was wrong.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)because no one leaves the Army in Israel. No one "retires."
Go back to bed.
onenote
(42,724 posts)Under Israeli law, former members of the military are not subject to call up as a member of the reserves after age 45 for combat duty and age 49 for other forms of duty. Eiland is 62.
http://www.idfinfo.co.il/Reserves.php?cat=a9
Eiland has not been called up. He is not subject to call up. He has not volunteered to rejoin the military. He is, in every real sense of the word, retired, which is how virtually every description of him you'll find on the web characterizes him.
But I get that it's not as dramatic to say "was" a Major General as it is to say "is" a Major General since the latter conveys the impression that he is currently serving in that capacity. Which he is not.
By the way, this is not a defense of his position, which is despicable.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Ignore function can be your friend.
At last that is how I feel when overly nitpicked by someone on DU who goes after me.
onenote
(42,724 posts)Would it be nitpicking to correct the record if someone described Feiglin, the asshole Deputy Speaker who posted utter crap, as the "former" Deputy Speaker?
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)Bill Clinton is no longer president of the United States but his opinion still holds sway. This guy wasn't a president of Israel but he might as well have been, considering the military mindset of that country.
He's a military celebrity in Israel, whose opinion still matters. Otherwise, why would any media source be quoting him?
Just my opinion. ymmv
TYY
Edited to add: He's clearly still contracting for the IDF:
In 2010 Eiland headed team of experts examining the preparations and in the actual boarding of the Gaza flotilla raid. Eiland presented the report to the chief of staff, Gabi Ashkenazi on July 12, 2010.[9][10]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giora_Eiland
The IDF Chief of the General Staff, Lt. Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi, received the conclusions reached by a team of experts, headed by Maj. Gen. (Res.) Giora Eiland, tasked with examining the incidents that took place at sea on May 31, 2010.
Maj. Gen. Eiland presented the team's findings and conclusions to the Chief of the General Staff as well as to officers from the General Staff and from other IDF branches and directorates who were involved in the preparations and in the actual boarding of the flotilla. The core of the report was presented the Minister of Defense of Israel as well.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/pressroom/2010/pages/maj-gen-res_eiland_presents_conclusions_examination_team_12-jul-2010.aspx
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/pressroom/2010/pages/maj-gen-res_eiland_presents_conclusions_examination_team_12-jul-2010.aspx
TYY
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)And great information that you are offering. I hope you spelled everything correctly and there are no grammatical flaws, otherwise you-know-who will be telling you your post is invalid.
Onenote's one note seems to be "nitpicking."
onenote
(42,724 posts)in the Israeli Army. I note that the OP correctly states that he is a former head of the National Security Council. Why so hard to make it clear is not currently a Major General in the army?
Bill Clinton does hold sway, which is why it was the subject of a thread here at DU when he made remarks critical of Hamas. But do you think it would be "nitpicking" if the OP in that threat had stated, "Bill Clinton, Who Is President of the United States Criticizes Hamas"?
Of course not. Because even even though Clinton's words carry much weight, it is factually inaccurate to describe him in a way that indicates he "is" President. Just as it is factually inaccurate to describe Eiland in away that indicates he "is" a Major General in the Israeli army.
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)...and was referred to as such, as recently as June of this year:
The public face behind the plan is Israeli Army Reserve Major-General Giora Eiland, who was Chairman of the Department of Planning in the Israeli army and Chairman of the National Security Council. He is a prominent participant in the annual Herzliya Conference, at which Israel’s strategies and security are discussed; past topics have included the "transfer" (ethnic cleansing) of Palestinians from their homeland in order to maintain Israel’s status as a Jewish state.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/06/30/tensions-rise-as-israel-hamas-trade-rockets/11776405/
TYY
onenote
(42,724 posts)Eiland is not a Major General in the reserves. He is not subject to being called up for duty. He has no uniform to wear and no one to give commands to. If he wants to "unretire," he can but I'm not sure what the IDF would do with a 62 year old; what is clear is that if unretired and was readmitted into the service, he would not serve in the capacity of (even if he had the title) a major general.
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)re: "Eiland is not a Major General in the reserves"
By the CNN Wire Staff
June 7, 2010 9:33 p.m. EDT
(CNN) -- The Israeli military's chief of general staff has appointed a reserve general to lead "a team of experts" to examine Israel's interception of a flotilla bound for Gaza last week in order to "establish lessons from the event," the Israel Defense Forces said in a statement.
<snip>
Chief of the General Staff, Lt. Gen. Gabi Ashkenazi, tapped Reserve Maj. Gen. Giora Eiland to head the team of experts, defined by the IDF as different from an investigative team because the experts are "a group of professionals with expertise on the matter and were not a part of the operational chain of command during this specific incident."
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/07/mideast.israel.gaza/
TYY
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)...because the sound of crickets around here is deafening.
You should probably offer an apology to WilliamPitt since his OP clearly defined Israeli Army Reserve Major-General Giora Eiland as being in the reserves.
Military titles never go away, they just age like good wine. Giora Eiland is now, and always will be referred to as Major-General Giora Eiland when his title applies to the story. For now, it is prefaced by 'Reserve.' Eventually, his title will be prefaced by 'Retired,' but, he'll always be 'Major-General Giora Eiland.'
Have you ever heard of General Patton being referred to as mister?
TYY
onenote
(42,724 posts)Although I almost fainted when I saw, I think for the first in my many years at DU, someone rely on CNN as a supposedly irrefutable source of anything. Next time someone questions the reliability of info on CNN, I'll let you know so you can come to their defense.
The facts remain the same. Eiland is retired. He not only is not currently an active member of the reserves, he is well beyond the age where he can be called up for service. Saying that he "is" a Major General in the Israeli Army conveys the impression that he is in a position to make military commands. But he is not. And while General's keep their title for life, so do presidents and others. BUt as I said, a post that, referring to Clinton, said "this guy is President of the United States" wouldn't be accurate. Nor would it be accurate, in a story about something said by Gen. Stanley McChrystal to say "this guy is a Four Star General in the Army". (By the way, you need to brush up on your Patton history -- he never retired from the military. He died in December 1945 in Germany as the result of a car accident a few weeks earlier. At the time he was commander of the Fifteenth Army -- I suppose pointing this out is nitpicking, but at least you'll know some more about Patton).
I think we've covered the territory. I think I'll move on.
A reminder, if you will, that some titles carry over even after one leaves office. Bill Clinton is still President Clinton, even if he's not the President at the moment. Same goes for generals like the one we're discussing now.
-Laelth
onenote
(42,724 posts)In the posts about Clinton's recent comments about Hamas, would you regard a title that said "can you believe this guy, who is president of the United States, said this"?
I would hope you would agree that it would be inaccurate for a post to say Clinton "is" President. And for the same reason, it is inaccurate to say that Eiland "is" a Major General in the Israeli army.
Laelth
(32,017 posts)It is undoubtedly true that one can't say that Clinton IS President. That's inaccurate. But what about a doctor who has lost his or her license to practice? Do we still say that person is a doctor? I don't know. In any event, I wanted to highlight a particular source of confusion in this thread. I can't give you an authoritative answer on usage, here.
-Laelth
TeeYiYi
(8,028 posts)...as Major General Giora Eiland.
Israel Foreign Affairs
Mar 7, 2014
FM Peres: 120 innocent Israelis lost their lives over the last month – babies, children, women, young and old, praying and participating at the Passover dinner, in restaurants, in clubs – for no good reason, without any justification.
The Israeli army has entered the territories, not in order to reoccupy them, and not in order to stay there. The Israeli army entered the territories in order to do the things that the Palestinian Authority was supposed to do and was committed to do so – namely, to bring an end to violence and terror, to arrest the troublemakers, to collect the illegal arms, to control the traffic of violence in the West Bank and Gaza.
I think General Zinni has suggested a fair proposal to us and to the Palestinians. General Eiland will speak about this soon. Actually, Arafat could have done it, because General Zinni asked Israel to do things which are tangible, and Arafat is supposed to do things which are basically declarative. So Israel has accepted the proposal of Zinni, the Palestinians have refused it.
http://israelforeignaffairs.com/press-conference-fm-shimon-peres-major-general-giora-eiland/
Tuesday, 05 August 2014 13:00
Israel is using media to incite hatred and violence against all Palestinians in the Gaza Strip after its military assault on Hamas has failed to defeat the Islamic resistance movement.
Over the last four weeks, the Israeli army has waged a brutal military campaign in Gaza, killing over 1,800 Palestinians, mostly civilians, but Israel's former national security advisor Major General Giora Eiland has placed the blame on the Palestinian people in Gaza, holding them responsible for the massacres committed by the Israeli army.
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/13255-israel-uses-media-incitement-to-justify-collective-slaughter-of-palestinians-in-gaza
At this point, you're arguing style guide semantics in a situation that does not warrant it and making accusations of deception, toward another DUer, in a thread where General Eiland's military rank and title were clearly identified from the jump.
I completely understand why you've now chosen to move on.
TYY
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Off to the ignore list for you...
onenote
(42,724 posts)Hmmmm.
I won't bother to ignore you now that I now that you don't care for accuracy.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)
Don't we wish.oberliner
(58,724 posts)Do you know?
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)I'd say "Reserve," as in no one leaves the army in Israel.
onenote
(42,724 posts)xocet
(3,871 posts)Both (res.) and (Res.) are used frequently on the IDF website and are used in conjunction with reservists - to wit,
http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/ForeignPolicy/Terrorism/Victims/Pages/Sgt-Maj%20-Res-%20Ofir%20Roth.aspx
and
http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/pressroom/2010/pages/maj-gen-res_eiland_presents_conclusions_examination_team_12-jul-2010.aspx .
smokey nj
(43,853 posts)
tularetom
(23,664 posts)But it isn't the residents of Gaza who are analogous to the Germans.
hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Well done, sir.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)They were diligent in your last thread. Perhaps this general is just an adviser to Ynet and not technically a "contributor"? I'm waiting.
onenote
(42,724 posts)He retired 11 years ago.
He's an asshole with disgusting asshole views.
But he's not now and hasn't had any role in the government for eight years (he served on the National Security Council until 2006).
geomon666
(7,512 posts)Not because he said it but because it's true, in my opinion. The only way for Israel to "win" is to completely destroy the Palestinian people. This man who openly speaks of genocide, you can only imagine what he speaks or thinks of in private.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)~~ shudders ~~
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)It is "God's chosen people" doing it.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)Even accepting Eiland's odious premise, purely for the sake of argument, I simply cannot comprehend how anyone can think Gaza's young people are responsible for their own slaughter.
WilliamPitt
(58,179 posts)http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/op-ed-israeli-deputy-speaker-calls-for-ethnic-cleansing-of-gaza/article/392650
stranger81
(2,345 posts)hifiguy
(33,688 posts)Netanyahoo (sic) and his arch-right-wing colleagues and enablers could openly state their intention to literally kill every living thing in Gaza (and follow through on it) and the US - no matter the party in control of the government - would do nothing more than issue the usual "strongly worded statement" concluding with "but we recognize Israel's right to self defense."
samsingh
(17,599 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)He's a retired general, now a research fellow.
Disgusting piece though - Ynet should be taken to task for publishing it.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)And/or make excuses for the atrocities committed in Gaza?
Oh, I forgot, "Hamas made them do it."
Purveyor
(29,876 posts)
G_j
(40,367 posts)we all know that war crimes are no longer unacceptable. 
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)All comparisons to Nazis are fully appropriate in this instance.
FairWinds
(1,717 posts)soldiers and most officials during the Vietnam War.
Read the devastating . .
"Kill Anything That Moves" by Nick Turse
Then join Veterans For Peace
sadoldgirl
(3,431 posts)At least this may take away the blinders some people wear. Now we get slowly informed about the real goals of the influential people in Israel and their attitudes. Better this than the Big Lie.
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)Boom Sound 416
(4,185 posts)rtracey
(2,062 posts)If you eliminate Hamas, as the Allies did with the Nazis controlling Germany, you can change the country. When you live with sh*t all your life, you begin to act like sh*t. Most of the fighters in Gaza only know the leadership of Hamas, or PLO. I do not support the war in this part of the world, but Eiland has a point, the citizens suffer during war, be it enemy or friend, and that part of war has never changed. Now, before I get a boatload of comments saying I support the deaths of the people in Gaza, that is the in fact the total opposite. I find what Israel has done at these schools and community centers horrendous, and Israel should be condemned for these actions, but in war, people die, and a great deal of these deaths are innocent civilians.
BillZBubb
(10,650 posts)As long as there is an Israeli occupation and taking of Palestinian land, there will be Hamas or something like it--likely worse. The Palestinians aren't just going to allow Israel to take their land.
End the occupation, agree to a two state deal with the PA and much of the problems go away immediately. Over time completely.
Hamas is a symptom. The Occupation is the cause.
Marr
(20,317 posts)Did they deserved what they got because Hitler was elected?
bobduca
(1,763 posts)Sounds like a Hobson's choice, regarding Israel's latest "peace" plan. Clearly reasonable people will choose option B.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/05/relief-among-israelis-troops-pull-out-gaza-no-sense-victory
