An Open Letter to Elie Wiesel - Have You No Shame, Sir?

[kpete]

Dear Mr. Wiesel,

I was extraordinarily dismayed to read your advertisement in the New York Times today – the one in which you accuse Hamas of “child sacrifice.” This, on the same day that the paper is full of reportage of multiple Israeli killings of Palestinian children in United Nations shelters. Of which you have not a word to say, except to demand that Israeli soldiers not be criticized, to exculpate them as facing a “terrible choice.” And to characterize Israel as “those who celebrate life.” Have you no shame, sir?

What is particularly heartbreaking about reading this advertisement is that I have taught your book, Night, and taught it as a universalist statement which, as the Nobel Committee put it, “embrace[s] all repressed peoples and races.” Except for Palestinians, apparently. Knowing your apparent beliefs, I can never use your book again, or I would be as hypocritical as you are, sir. Or I would have to break my students’ hearts and reveal to them that the same man who writes about Nazi savagery gives his own group a pass when they are the murderers. Or should I split hairs and explain to them that collective punishment which is not followed by genocide is somehow acceptable?

Is it really true, sir, that this war is “yet another struggle for (Israeli) survival?” (my italicizing) You must be aware that this is an absurd statement, turning the oppressor, the ghettoizer, into the victim; it betrays either a lack of connection to reality or purposeful deceit. Is describing this war as one of “civilization versus barbarism” an example of a “message… of peace, atonement and human dignity?” (Nobel citation) Only in a world devoid of morality. I thought you believed in a universal morality, sir, but apparently I (and the Nobel Committee) was in error; you can only see tragedy when it falls on those you find suitable victims. For shame, sir.

Marc Kagan

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/04/1319206/-Am-Open-Letter-to-Elie-Wiesel-Have-You-No-Shame-Sir

[hack89]

1. And under the bus goes a great man. nt

[hlthe2b]

2. A "great" man with a horrendous blind spot... n/t

[hack89]

4. A great man that disagrees with you. nt

[whathehell]

29. ..and about 75% of the rest of the world

[former9thward]

58. 75% of the world has always hated Jews.

They are used to it.

[Douglas Carpenter]

65. faking claims of anti-Semitism is not going to work anymore. Give it up

no lie can live forever

[truedelphi]

67. Oh Please. Jewish people in the USA (And in other industrialized nations)

are so hated that they are heads of entertainment companies, have full control of departments at universities, are noted for abilities as dentists, doctors and psychiatrists, and manage entire brokerage firms.

Additionally it has been mainly Jewish people who have held top positions at the World Bank and IMF.

Most of us could only hope to be so hated.

[WinkyDink]

157. Coded anti-Semitism ("Jews run the banks and Hollywood") and ignorance of pogroms, WWII, etc.

[truedelphi]

163. Hardly ignorance on my part. One of my dad's best buddies

During WWII was a photographer carefully selected by the Upper Brass of the military to film the atrocities at various concentration camps, Spring and early Summer 1945.

But do people really expect other people to think themselves anti-semites when all they' re doing is pointing out that Jewish people are successful? I mean, really? Really?

If you were a soul about to inhabit a human body, would you right now choose to be a kid growing up in a Jewish family, or an African American kid growing up in Watts or any part of West side of Chicago, or East LA?

[whathehell]

81. That's one of the most absurdly paranoid remarks I believe I've ever read..

So unless you've got something like stats to back it up, I'm afraid I have to regard it

as insane.

[former9thward]

82. Do you have stats to back up your statement?

[whathehell]

83. No, I have something known as sanity.

Seventy Five percent of the WORLD?

Half the world (China, maybe?) has never seen or thought about Jews.

I really hope you're not Jewish, living with that level of negativity and paranoia.

[former9thward]

93. ".and about 75% of the rest of the world"

Your statement. Where are the stats? Or is that just your "sanity" kicking in?

[truedelphi]

161. Their "Seventy five percent"

cracks me up.

Do they really think some goat herder in the mountains of Peru wakes up each morning thinking "Gosh, I hate Jews.'

Or some kid in Haiti who is a household slave to some other Haitian?

They haven't really traveled much, or if they have,they never ventured far beyond the lobby of whatever three or four star hotel they stay at.

[whathehell]

162. I know..It's pathetic. nt

[Aerows]

170. Oh come on.

You know a woman working in a clothing factory in India wakes up every day thinking "If it weren't for those awful Jews, I'd get a raise to ten cents an hour!"

It's blatant propaganda tailored to the US and other predominantly English speaking nations. Nobody in Brazil wakes up thinking "The world would be a better place without Jews", either, because it is absurd.

When I see people make statements like that, it reminds me that "75%" of the world to some people is the bubble they live in. Kind of makes me wonder why they keep seeing haters in everyone around them. Maybe the problem isn't the haters, but in the person doing the looking.

[truedelphi]

175. Did this post of yours get tacked mistakenly as a reply to mine?

I am saying what you' re saying, so I don't know why yr statement attached as a disagreement to me.

[Thor_MN]

90. Your claim, your duty to provide stats.

Please provide cites to back your claim of 75% of the world hating Jews.

[former9thward]

92. Oh, and the poster I was replying to has no duty?

Why aren't you asking him/her to supply stats?

[Thor_MN]

94. Reading comprehension issues?

You claimed that 75% of the world hates Jews. Your claim, back it up.

[former9thward]

95. I said that in reply.

Why aren't you asking that poster to come up with stats for his claim? I think you have the issues....

[Thor_MN]

96. Here, let me help you.

Directly quoting your subject line "75% of the world has always hated Jews."

Trying to divert attention away from your post isn't going to work.

If another poster makes a ridiculous claim, I will ask them to back it up as well.

[former9thward]

97. You have not done that.

When you do and he backs up his claim then I will back up my claim made in reply to his.

[Thor_MN]

98. No, you, as usual, are just going to dodge backing up wild claims you make...

[former9thward]

99. Since you have appointed yourself police of wild claims

then you will challenge the poster I replied to about his.

[Thor_MN]

100. Reading comprehension again.

WHEN another poster..

Feel free to continue distracting from your claim that 75% of the world hates Jews.

[former9thward]

101. And you are ignoring his claim....

Willfully it seems....

[Thor_MN]

114. Your wishes have no will on my actions.

You seem to be willfully unaware that I choose when, if and why I respond. Your desires have no consequence.

You also seem fully cognizant that your claim can not be backed, therefore your continued attempts to distract from the fact that you claimed 75% of the world hates Jews.

[Tommymac]

124. Don't sweat it. He lost all credibility with this lurker...

by trying to sidetrack the discussion without proof.

Lurkers are intelligent and get it.

Thanks for calling them out initially though - good job.

Cheers

[former9thward]

146. Did the poster I originally replied to have credibility with you?

I see he finally backed off when I challenged him to prove his claim that 75% of the world hates Israel -- or do you believe it to? If you do where are the stats?

[Tommymac]

154. Dude I was defending you. I agree with you. n/t

[former9thward]

155. Sorry.

I think your original reply to me actually went to the other poster so I got mixed up.

[Tommymac]

156. No worries. It's all good.

Cheers.

[Thor_MN]

159. Sorry, it was YOU who claimed that 75% of the world has always hated Jews

Don't try to pretend you were arguing the opposite.

A rather ridiculous statement since Jews have not always existed. But you will defend it ad naseum rather than ever admit your BS.

[Tumbulu]

120. I am with you on this-

totally insane!

[notadmblnd]

84. Even if it were true (which It isn't)

Why would you think that is? Why do you feel that 75% of the world hates Jewish people?

[former9thward]

103. Some people try and write books and long articles with their posts.

I am not one of them.

[notadmblnd]

110. You're funny.

You wouldn't have to Author a book. I think you're perfectly capable of summing it up in less than 100 words. Then again, maybe not.

[former9thward]

173. Any one who claims to sum up the situation in Israel in 100 words or less is an idiot.

[DesertDiamond]

128. That 75% also includes many of the soldiers who are part of the occupying army stationed in Gaza...

Or are they Jew-haters too? Here's the link to the Soldiers Break Silence website...

http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/

[Billy Budd]

34. a great man

does not see hundreds of little kids slaughtered as being morally correct...there have been 63 Israeli deaths all but 3 soldiers ...The IDF has butchered hundreds and hundreds of civilians often by attacks on refugee center. Its war of attrition by bombing the power plant and the infrastructure will Holocaust more thousands of Palestinians ...as I am writing this I also have to worry I'll be taken to Jury for criticizing Israel

"It is not an exaggeration to say that Israel’s acclaimed “Defense Forces” have become expert in violating human rights: murder and ethnic cleansing, illegal confiscation of occupied land, destruction of civilian housing, destruction of civilian infrastructure (water, electricity, sanitation, etc.), attacking of medical facilities, torture both of adults and children, the use of banned weaponry, the mistreatment of prisoners and more. And they have done it all quite openly."

[Crunchy Frog]

46. A great man who cheerlead the invasion of Iraq. n/t

[sabrina 1]

55. A great man who is wrong on something he of all people should understand.

It's called 'blind loyalty' and is a dangerous condition which should be avoided as Elie Wiesel himself has always been aware of. And now he himself has fallen victim to.

[lark]

68. Great men

do not condone targeting children and killing them merely because they are a different race.

For shame!!!!

[WinkyDink]

8. I think he has lived it, earned it, and knows more than you about it.

[atreides1]

15. Does that mean this gentleman knows less, too?

[hlthe2b]

18. and spoken in absolute contradiction to his rhetoric of today... Other holocaust survivors are also

horrified by that which Wiesel justifies today. See the youtube posted in response to you above for just one such example.

So, I ask YOU. What exactly makes Wiesel more qualified than these other survivors to speak to these matters. What exactly?

[kpete]

3. I hope not on my post

Can't we just shine the light
without throwing anyone under the bus?

I have read his books, I have listened to him talk
I do believe he is a great author and someone we should listen to on the subject of Israel

But, I do not believe that criticism needs to be held back for ANYONE

I believe in PEACE.
I also believe that the Citizens of Israel & Palestine Want PEACE.

“Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.”

Fredrick Douglass

http://www.blackpast.org/1857-frederick-douglass-if-there-no-struggle-there-no-progress

[hack89]

5. The pro-Hamas people will tear him to shreds.

it is just the way DU is now days.

[Chan790]

10. I am skeptical that there are any pro-Hamas people here.

There is a difference between supporting a terrorist organization and opposing a military response that disproportionately targets civilians and residential neighborhoods to that organization.

So, I put it to you...find me one DUer posting "You go, Hamas!" or something similar...or back down your claim. (No, posting or quoting articles that are merely critical of Israel or the current military action are insufficient.)

[Fred Sanders]

12. Not possible for him to respond, sir. Black and white categorization is demanded for effective

propaganda.....the pro-death to children crowd have to stick to the plan.

[hlthe2b]

17. No, of course there are not "Pro-Hamas" posters here (or at least darned few)

It is a very disingenuous tactic to avoid actually discussing Israel's disproportionate response.

[leftynyc]

51. When anything that comes out of the

Israeli government is automatically labeled a lie and everything a spokesmen (since they don't let women do the talking) for hamas is given the benefit of the doubt, pardon me for not believing there aren't hamas supporters here.

[hlthe2b]

54. No one here has to believe Hamas nor give them benefit of the doubt.

The Israeli government's statements have been directly countered by the UN and others on the ground as well as the historical record, including the official procedural manual on discussing (deflecting blame for) killed civilians as has been made available in the western press:

“The more the dead, the better”: Israel’s crumbling media war
As the world watches in horror at the massacre of Palestinians, Israel’s propaganda war is being challenged
Deepa Kumar

http://www.salon.com/2014/07/23/%E2%80%9Cthe_more_the_dead_the_better%E2%80%9D_israel%E2%80%99s_crumbling_media_war/

There is a standard script for how to deal with Palestinian casualties. After Israel killed four boys on the Gaza beach on July 16, the U.S. establishment media fell in line behind Israel’s PR framework: acknowledge the tragedy but blame Hamas. This is exactly what Israeli spokesperson Mark Regev said on Channel 4 News when grilled by the anchor Jon Snow. It is also how the U.S. State Department spokesperson Jen Psaki responded, using the same word-for-word talking points.

This framework, developed in 2009, can be found in The Israel Project’s 2009 Global Language Dictionary. The Orwellian manual provides a detailed outline on how to “communicate effectively in support of Israel.”

One of its first instructions is that pro-Israeli propagandists need to show empathy. The manual insists that they should “show empathy for BOTH sides” (caps in original) as a way of gaining credibility and trust. To make sure that the point is understood, the manual repeats again (in bold, and underlined this time) the instruction “use Empathy”—the suggestion being that empathy is an important tool to be used in the propaganda war.

When innocent Palestinian children and women are killed, the first response should be to show empathy; the next is to reframe the issue stating that Israel is not to blame and that it is only defending itself and further that it only wants peace. Even when it is raining death and destruction on Palestinians, the manual is clear: “Remind people—again and again—that Israel wants peace.”

Developed after the 2008 Gaza war, when Americans began to show greater sympathy for Palestinians, this propaganda manual tries to address some of the shortcomings during Operation Cast Lead. Among the various shifts it suggests, the manual notes that it is important to distinguish between the Palestinian people and Hamas. Ayman Mohyeldin, one of the few international reporters who covered Cast Lead, noted that Israel sought to “portray everyone in Gaza as a Hamas sympathizer, as a terrorist sympathizer” as a way to justify its indiscriminate killing.

The 2009 manual counters this strategy, stating that while Americans “get” that “Hamas is a terrorist organization. . . if it sounds like you are attacking the Palestinian people. . . you will lose support.” It carefully emphasizes again: “Right now, many Americans sympathize with the plight of the Palestinians, and that sympathy will increase if you fail to differentiate between the people from their leaders.”

In other words, in order to decrease sympathy for the Palestinian people new tactics were needed to augment older ones.

Israeli propaganda has a long history. In 1982 the Israeli invasion of Lebanon was met with international condemnation. In particular, the massacre of Palestinians in the refugee camps of Sabra and Shatila damaged its public image. Israel then instituted a permanent PR establishment that would work to cultivate good media coverage in the U.S. The Hasbara project involved training Israeli diplomats and press officers on how to speak in ways that ensured favorable media coverage. The media watchdog group Committee for Accuracy in Middle East Reporting in America (CAMERA) was formed to monitor and respond to “unfair” media coverage of Israel.

But pro-Israeli coverage isn’t simply the product of good talking points; rather it stems from the “special relationship” between the U.S. and Israel and their mutual interests in the Middle East. It is not a coincidence that Psaki would use the same language as Mark Regev. Or that John Kerry would echo Netanyahu.

The U.S. political elite, the elite in Israel and the owners of the corporate media share a set of common economic and political interests that ensures that pro-Israeli propaganda dominates in the establishment media. Should journalists and media organizations break from the script, various pro-Israeli groups, such as CAMERA, generate flack and bring enough pressure to bear on editors and reporters that they are brought back in line.

[JDPriestly]

116. Elie Wiesel was obviously referring to the quotes from the alleged

Hamas manual that the Israelis said they found at some point.

Have you done any research regarding whether that manual is or is not authentic?

You seem to have done research about some other issues. I would like to know. I think I will try to find out.

Do you know whether Hamas has denied the authenticity of the manual?

[intaglio]

177. But interestingly Weisel makes no comment about

the IDF and their known use of human shields.

Both sides have suffered historically but history does not provide justification for mass slaughter and oppression.

[maddiemom]

24. Exactly!

[whathehell]

30. "Find me one DUer posting 'You got Hamas' or something like that..or

back down your claim"

Exactly.

[QuestForSense]

41. I think you are correct.

[MFM008]

80. TY

exactly.

[frylock]

31. you continue to conflate anti-ethnic cleansing with being pro-Hamas..

nobody here is buying your shit. nobody.

[Tommymac]

125. +1

[blackspade]

36. Hyperbolic fail.

There are no pro-Hamas 'people' at DU.

There are Israeli critics, and there is a lot to criticize.

[kpete]

44. Thank you

blackspade



peace,
kp

[Crunchy Frog]

47. I lost respect for him

back when I was "pro-Saddam Hussein", or back when I didn't want us to invade Iraq. You can take your pick as to how you wish to classify my position at the time.

[bullwinkle428]

49. BWAH-HA-HA!! I'll bet dollars to donuts you were calling people

critical of the march to war in Iraq "pro-Saddam people" as well.

[Marrah_G]

91. I am not Pro-hamas, I am Anti-Bombing-the-Shit-Out-of-Civilians

[Ikonoklast]

145. Pro-PEACE people will tear him to shreds.

As long as Palestinian kids are the ones dying, Wiesel says nothing.

If you support or apologize for your side causing the death of innocents, you deserve whatever bad karma comes your way.

[Aerows]

171. Who are these "Pro-Hamas" people on DU

that you speak of?

Just because I disagree with something you say, Hack89, doesn't mean I disagree with everything you say or think that you are a freeper.

Most adults are capable of understanding nuance.

[lark]

69. Then why do they cheer the killing of Palestinian children?

[chervilant]

106. Indeed...

Especially:

"The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress.”

I cannot express the dismay I feel over the violence--on both the macro and micro levels--our species is visiting upon ourselves, and our planet.

[DanTex]

6. Justifying war crimes and the murder of children will tend to leave a person under a bus.

[m-lekktor]

7. He supported Bush's war on Iraq and wants war on Iran.

(google it if you don't believe me) should this "great man" not be criticized for that is well?

[JNelson6563]

9. Brilliant use of the term!

Artfully sidestepping all of the substance in the OP with the bonus of painting the party in the wrong as a victim. Considering this is the exact wrong doing the article in the OP is taking issue with you get a Double-Plus-Good for your effort.

Julie

[HereSince1628]

21. Why under the bus? Why not just realize he isn't perfect?

Who is?

[elleng]

53. THANKS, HereSince.

[NuclearDem]

23. No, just a great man that I disagree with vehemently on this issue.

[Billy Budd]

37. who shrugs off

The merciless heartless slaughter of innocent little kids ...

[Granny M]

50. Thanks for posting this.

I have sat here for over an hour when I had a million things to do, but it was an hour well spent.

[Billy Budd]

56. I am grateful

you took the time and may you be blessed....

[lumpy]

72. Thanks for posting a different perspective of Israel/Palestine history from a first hand observer.

[Fantastic Anarchist]

141. Great Video.

[Martin Eden]

48. Do you agree with Wiesel's letter?

Are all the civilian deaths in Gaza the result of them being used as "human shields"?

[840high]

86. A larger percent than you

think are human shields.

[frylock]

108. give us a number

[Martin Eden]

113. 70% thought Iraq had WMD and was allied with al Qaeda

Were they right?

[rateyes]

73. He wasn't thrown under the bus.

He laid himself under it.

[Orsino]

152. He is driving a bus...

...under which can be seen the Palestinian people.

It's a sad end for Wiesel.

[Fred Sanders]

11. Killing and demonizing brown children while saying they celebrate life....sound familiar?

[panader0]

13. I can't believe he's still alive.

[WinkyDink]

158. Meaning exactly WHAT? You can't believe he survived his concentration camp years? No, you meant

you'd prefer his being dead.

[panader0]

160. No. I do NOT mean I'd prefer his being dead.

How in the hell did you get that? I meant that I thought he might be gone by now. I looked it up; I think he's 86. I read 'Night" many years ago and made my kids read it. Please relax.

[chrisa]

164. I don't think that's what he meant.

I wasn't sure, before reading this read, if Elie Wiesel was still alive either.

[daleanime]

14. K&R....

[Scott6113]

16. I disagree

Hamas has been storing and shooting rockets from places with children. They hope to either protect their missiles by using children as human shields, or get a propaganda victory when the Israeli's kill those children.

If Israel does not kill these children, they will be bombarded with missiles. Endlessly. I don't know why they don't accomplish this on the ground. Maybe as soon as they would reach a site, the missiles would be gone.

There are no good choices. But, I lay the blame first at Hamas for the use of hospitals, kindergardens and UN shelters as missile launch sites. If they weren't committing this war crime, the killing of civilians would stop.

Elie Wiesel came out against Serbian Ethnic Cleansing. He isn't just for the human rights of Jews.

There is another side of this story, not just the media side.

[magical thyme]

26. with the massive overcrowding in the ever shrinking Gaza, it is impossible not to

store defensive weapons near children.

Of course, if Israel would retreat to its original boundaries, thereby giving back some of the land which it stole from the Palestinian people, then there might be room for the Palestinians to separate their defenses from their children.

But of course we know that won't happen. Instead, Israel will build more settlements on the 40% or so of the remaining Gaza which they have pulverized in response to Hamas NOT launcheing rockets for 19 months, in response to Hamas NOT murdering 3 teens and Hamas NOT kidnapping a soldier who died before the ceasefire.

I can't write any more of what I wish to write, or I will be forever banned from DU.

[Scott6113]

57. Not buying it.

I don't think they locate launch sites near children because there is no where else to launch, that it is just too crowded. I think they do it to protect their launch sites.

About taking land. I understand a country faced with annihilation every day just might want a buffer zone between them and their sworn enemies.

And about IDF using palestinian children: a google search only revealed a manual in which the IDF knew Hamas was doing it, and that they had to limit their weapons fire accordingly.

No, I don't like what Israel is doing. I don't like their treatment of Palestinians. I don't see any good guys in this fight. Not going over to the hate Israel crowd or the jingoists.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

78. Have you seen images of what used to be Palestinian lands that are now Israeli lands?

If Israel needs a 3km buffer zone, or even a 10 or 20 km buffer zone, they could have set one up on the land they've already taken from Palestinians outside of the Gaza strip. There was no need to destroy another 40% of what was left of Gaza to set up a buffer zone inside Gaza. Hell, they could have destroyed any Hamas "terror tunnels" going into Israel by bombing in that buffer zone outside of the boundaries of Gaza to collapse them.

[bravenak]

129. You forgot that time IDF went to court to fight for the right to use Palestinians as human shields.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/neighbors-won-t-be-serving-1.171577

[magical thyme]

144. "About taking land. I understand a country faced with annihilation every day..."

You mean the Palestinians, right?

Because they are the ones who are actually facing annihilation every day. They are the ones who's land Israel occupies. And the Zionists are on record with intending to drive them out of their land since the late 1800s.

[Scott6113]

148. No

The Arabs in Palestine could easily leave. The Muslim Countries, much larger, with more resources all around Israel have repeatedly called for the total destruction of the Jewish State: Syria, Lebanon, Iran, and more.

Don't twist history. I want Palestinians treated better. I don't like what Israel is doing. But don't for a minute think that the anti-Semitism in the Middle East is anything less than what it is. It is murderous hatred.

[magical thyme]

149. so the Palestinians can easily walk away from their homes, and give up what little hasn't been stole

from them to the Israelis.

Don't twist history.
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/

[Scott6113]

147. They could launch from unpopulated areas

It isn't that crowded.
http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4580/gaza-population-density#.U-EzkYV975I.facebook

[Billy Budd]

35. are you aware

The IDF went to Court in 2005 in Israel to argue for the Right to use Palestinian children as human shields ? look it up

[bravenak]

127. Here you go, let's save some time.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/neighbors-won-t-be-serving-1.171577

[blackspade]

39. Barf.

This is just repackaged Likkud propaganda.

[840high]

87. He is a man I trust

and respect.

[DeSwiss]

109. ....

[TBF]

19. A great man and writer -

no way will I join the "under the bus" crowd on this one. He is one who has seen atrocities and I think his perspective is valuable, even if I don't agree.

[kpete]

20. well said:

I think his perspective is valuable, even if I don't agree.

that is how we ALL should roll....

agreement is NOT necessary



peace,
kp

[Enrique]

33. I agree

the OP is excellent, it is NOT throwing Wiesel under the bus. His criticism of Wiesel is very specific and imo correct.

[TBF]

43. Agreed. nt

[Orsino]

151. ...whose book Night should continue to be taught...

...as an antidote to the sort of barbarity he now excuses.

Even Wiesel should be able to learn from such great work.

[cpwm17]

22. He's a phony

Here's what Christopher Hitchens wrote about Elie Wiesel in The Nation before Hitchens lost his mind on 9-11:

http://www.thenation.com/article/wiesel-words

Is there a more contemptible poseur and windbag than Elie Wiesel? I suppose there may be. But not, surely, a poseur and windbag who receives (and takes as his due) such grotesque deference on moral questions. Look, if you will, at his essay on Jerusalem in the New York Times of January 24.

As a Jew living in the United States, I have long denied myself the right to intervene in Israel's internal debates.... My critics have their conception of social and individual ethics; I have mine. But while I grant them their right to criticize, they sometimes deny mine to abstain.

Such magnificent condescension, to grant his critics the right. And it is not certain from when Wiesel dates his high-minded abstention from Israel's internal affairs; he was a member of Menachem Begin's Irgun in the 1940s, when that force employed extreme violence against Arab civilians and was more than ready to use it against Jews. At all events, his dubious claim above is only a pompous preface to discarding nonintervention in the present because Jerusalem is at stake, and "the fact that I do not live in Jerusalem is secondary; Jerusalem lives within me." (Again the modesty.) There are, sad to say, serpents in Wiesel's internal Eden, and they too must be patronized:

That Muslims might wish to maintain close ties with this city unlike any other is understandable. Although its name does not appear in the Koran, Jerusalem is the third holiest city in Islam. But for Jews, it remains the first. Not just the first; the only.

[m-lekktor]

25. we're supposed to genuflect because he is a famous

holocaust survivor/author. he uses his status as that as cover for some pretty rancid right wing bullshit.

[cpwm17]

27. Yes, he's a right-winger for sure

We should judge a man by how he believes the group he belongs to should treat his fellow man. He can wax poetic all he wants about justice for other people on this earth, but as long as he doesn't practice what he preaches he is part of the problem.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

40. The way some of these people talk one would think it was the Palestinians who ran the death camps.

[former9thward]

60. "these people"?

No the Palestinians did not operate the death camps but they supported Hitler.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

61. LOL!!! I see. So that means they're the SAME. Right?

[former9thward]

63. I guess the same as "these people".

Your words not mine.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

64. Is it a GOAL to purposely misunderstand?

[sibelian]

118. Of course it is.

You don't suppose your opponent didn't understand you? Course they did. They just couldn't look as if they had a point if they responded to you in good faith.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

123. This crap is why there is no peace.

[Billy Budd]

66. common interest Nazi Germany and Stern gang

Zionist factions competed for the honor of allying to Hitler. By 1940-41, the “Stern Gang,” among them Yitzhak Shamir, later Prime Minister of Israel, presented the Nazis with the “Fundamental Features of the Proposal of the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning the Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe and the Participation of the NMO in the War on the Side of Germany.”

Avraham Stern and his followers announced that

“The NMO, which is well-acquainted with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its authorities towards Zionist activity inside Germany and towards Zionist emigration plans, is of the opinion that:

1. Common interests could exist between the establishment of a new order in Europe in conformity with the German concept, and the true national aspirations of the Jewish people as they are embodied by the NMO.

2. Cooperation between the new Germany and a renewed folkish-national Hebraium would be possible and,

3. The establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich, would be in the interest of a maintained and strengthened future German position of power in the Near East.

http://www.counterpunch.org/2002/12/23/51-documents/

[Hissyspit]

71. I thought we weren't allowed to bring up Nazis?

[former9thward]

74. Where is that in the TOS?

[Hissyspit]

85. It's not.

It's in the double standards, apparently.

[Douglas Carpenter]

77. that is absolute bullshite -and Nazi Germany did actively support the Jewish settlement in Palestine

Thousands of Palestinians fought on the side of the British during World War II. Though the Mufti clearly did support Hitler as did many nationalist leaders throughout the former colonial world, it would be completely anti-historic to say the Palestinians supported the Nazis. Following that logic the leadership of the Stern Gang and the Irgun who were attacking the British in Palestine while Britain was in a state of war against Nazi Germany would make the Zionist movement partially responsible for the holocaust. But, I would not go that far.

Regarding Nazi Germany support for the Zionist project in Palestine -

This from the Simon Wiesenthal Center - hardly a pro-Palestinian source

http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=gvKVLcMVIuG&b=395105


snip:"Germany's Palestine policy between 1933 and 1940 was based on a fundamental acceptance of the post-World War I status quo in the Middle East. For different reasons, the Hitler regime continued in the footsteps of the various Weimar governments by identifying German interests with the postwar settlement in Palestine. That settlement embodied a growing Jewish presence and homeland in Palestine, as well as the establishment of British imperial power over Palestine and the Middle East. It also represented a denial of Arab claims to national self-determination and independence in Palestine and throughout the Middle East. Between 1933 and 1940, German policy encouraged and actively promoted Jewish emigration to Palestine, recognized and respected Britain's imperial interests throughout the Middle East and remained largely indifferent to the ideals and aims of Arab nationalism. (p. 201)"

Snip:"The relationship between Nazi Germany and the Palestine Question of the 1930s is widely misunderstood. Except for a few scholars here and there, this subject lends itself to a pervasive kind of misconception: we tend to read the Nazi policies of World War II back into the 1930s. The Nazis' "Final Solution of the Jewish Question," their pro-Arab attitudes, and their battle against Great Britain makes it difficult for most of us to imagine that before the war the Nazis, even the SS, aided the illegal immigration of Jews into Palestine, and that Hitler so feared British displeasure that he absolutely prohibited German support for the Arabs of the Palestine mandate. Yet this is exactly what Francis R. Nicosia has described and proved in his excellent scholarly study.

Nicosia clearly shows in his impressive introductory chapter that Germany's policy on Palestine remained unchanged from the late Empire through the Weimar Republic. German policy makers supported Zionist efforts because they recognized that Zionism could be an effective instrument of German foreign policy. During the 1930s, the Nazis continued this traditional policy because they wanted to use Zionism and please the British.

snip: Nicosia examines the role of the SS, and it is noteworthy that there was some cooperation between the SS and the Revisionist Zionists in the period 1933-1937. There is of course some logic to this, since the SS recognized that the Revisionists were vigorously pursuing Jewish emigration from Germany to Palestine. This too was the rationale behind the German government's support of the Zionists' agricultural retraining program; incidentally, Nicosia thoughtfully provides a map showing the distribution of the retraining centers (Appendix 11, p. 217). In retrospect, it is difficult for us to imagine that the Nazis encouraged Zionists from Palestine to enter Germany, teach Hebrew, educate German Jews about Palestine, and even display the blue and white Jewish national flag; the Revisionist Zionists even wore uniforms. Clearly this was all done for the promotion of purely German domestic and economic ends, with no concern for the Palestine situation itself.

snip:"Most Arabs never realized that the Nazis viewed them as racially inferior and that Germany was directly responsible for the increase in Jewish immigration during the 1930s. It was the Arabs, especially Palestinian Arab leaders like Haj Amin al-Husayni, the Mufti of Jerusalem, who openly made their pro-German feelings known. But Nicosia's analysis of the scholarly biographies of the Mufti shows that these biographies cannot be relied on for an accurate account of Nazi Germany's involvement in Palestine (p. 250, n. 3). Like others, I had relied on these biographies; now I must, however, agree with Nicosia's conclusion that Germany was not involved in the Arab Jewish conflict in Palestine of 1936-1937.

link to full article:

Palestine and Nazi Germany
by Sara Reguer

Francis R. Nicosia. The Third Reich and the Palestine Question. Austin: Texas University Press, 1985. xiv, 319 pages.

link: http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=gvKVLcMVIuG&b=395105

[MFM008]

102. so did the Irish

as an irishgal im sad to admit. Now what?

[former9thward]

104. I don't know.

i am still wondering who the "these people" are in the post I replied to.

[Tommymac]

126. So did the Swedes of that time. Popcorn?

Societies change over time. Just like people. Actions in the past cannot always be judged by the standards of the present.

(I love the Swedes btw - have a Swedish host daughter. Example only - no offense intended.)

[riverwalker]

28. The Center for Victims of Torture

I remember this protest against his appearance at the Center for Victims of Torture in Minnesota, back in 1999. I was so surprised to hear he had never spoken out about torture of Palestinians by Israel. He had always been a hero of mine, I was so disappointed.

http://www.wrmea.org/wrmea-archives/175-washington-report-archives-1994-1999/march-1999/1876-human-rights-elie-wiesel-s-visit-sparks-protest.html

Human Rights

Elie Wiesel’s Visit Sparks Protest

More than 35 protesters gathered at a Dec. 10 benefit dinner in Minneapolis on the occasion of the 50th anniversary of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights. Protesters called upon the guest speaker, Nobel laureate Elie Wiesel, to cease his silence on legalized torture in Israel. The black-tie event was sponsored by the Center for Victims of Torture, the Minneapolis University Rotary Club and the Jewish Community Relations Council and was attended by almost 1,000 persons.

[joeybee12]

32. Mr. Wiesel was a strong supporter of Bush's foray into Iraq...

I was so disappointed in him back then this doesn't surprise me.

[Billy Budd]

38. fact sheet outlining Israel’s violation of humanitarian-law statutes

Center for Constitutional Rights fact sheet outlining Israel’s violation of humanitarian-law statutes.

http://ccrjustice.org/files/IHL%20and%20Gaza%20factsheet.pdf

[swilton]

107. Excellent resource!

Thanks for the link!!

[Garthem]

42. Shocking and Disappointing

I'm a big admirer of Wiesel.

[Crunchy Frog]

45. I lost all respect for him when he wrote an editorial urging the invasion of Iraq.

I'm not at all surprised at this latest exercize from him.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

62. Did he buy that "Islamofascist" crap?

[elleng]

52. Thanks.

Looks like this 'great man' made a mistake. I'm glad he was called on it.

[4now]

59. I was disgusted

when I read his "blame the victim" rant.
So sad what he has become.

[Enthusiast]

70. Kicked and recommended a whole bunch!

[Mc Mike]

75. I love Wiesel. But he's wrong.

[BillZBubb]

76. I was shocked by Wiesel's letter too. He essentially repudiated his great work.

Something about Israel makes it's supporters abandon their morality and logic on an as needed basis.

[hopemountain]

79. eli wiesel is wrong.

from where does this blind loyalty to a country or politic take root? when does irrational thought and denial enter one's mind, soul and conscience to allow the justification of inhumanity and abominations?

pitiful.

[Uncle Joe]

88. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, kpete.

[PumpkinAle]

105. No human race is superior;

It would appear Wiesel is not only a hypocrite, he seems to have forgotten his own words.

"No human race is superior; no religious faith is inferior. All collective judgments are wrong. Only racists make them." Elie Wiesel

“This blind defense of Israeli brutality towards the Palestinians is betrayal of the memory of all those killed in other genocides in other times. The lesson of the Holocaust is not that Jews are special. It is not that Jews are unique. It is not that Jews are eternal victims. The lesson of the Holocaust is that when you have the capacity to halt genocide, and you do not, no matter who carries out that genocide or who it is directed against, you are culpable. ” Chris Hedges (http://ingaza.wordpress.com/2011/08/26/culpable-on-gazas-atrocities/)

[99Forever]

111. Painfully truthful.

Thanks for posting it,Kpete.

[nikto]

112. I am in total agreement----I taught NIGHT in my HS English classes for 15-20 years

Wiesel's example teaches us that ANYONE can be bitten by the werewolf
and become a little bit of a werewolf themselves.

No one is immune, not even Elie Wiesel, with all of his insights.

What the concentration camps couldn't do (destroy his soul),
the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has finally done.

IMO, all humanity has been shamed as well.
..............................................................................................................................

To summarize:
Elie Wiesel has caught
The Neocon Disease.


Neocon disease is the Ebola of The Soul.

[JDPriestly]

115. Elie Wiesel is referring to the Hamas manual which allegedly

instructed Palestinians to use children as shields.

I do not know whether that manual is a fraud or not. The Simon Wiesenthal talked about it on their website. I think a reliable and objective body needs to look at the original that was found and determine whether it is authentic before anyone condemns or criticizes anyone.

Maybe someone should ask Elie Wiesel what he is talking about and the evidence supporting his claims. Maybe he will retract his ad if he learns he has been mislead or tricked. But then, who knows whether this manual is authentic or not.

Does Hamas have the means to publish something like that alleged manual? Where was it printed? On what kind of paper, etc.?

What does Hamas say about the manual?

Does anyone know?

[bravenak]

130. The IDF used palestinians as human shields.

So y'all need to stop using that line of attack. We got goggle too.http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/neighbors-won-t-be-serving-1.171577

[JDPriestly]

132. And the Israelis adherence to the rule of law stopped the practice:

The High Court justices reasoned the outlawing of the "neighbor procedure" by noting that under international law, as interpreted in The Hague, a local resident cannot be "volunteered" to assist an army in its operations in occupied territory; moreover, an army is bound to remove innocent civilians from an area of hostile activity. In light of the substantial inequality in the power of the IDF and that of the local resident, the procedure cannot be based on consent because this is not genuine, for the most part. It is also difficult to know in advance what missions are dangerous, and therefore, citizens must not be involved in military activities, which are dangerous by nature. Even when limitations are set, "There is the danger of spilling over into the totally forbidden practice inherent in the means that the procedure permits."

. . . .

The High Court exists in order to determine society's legal framework, and it is the duty of the IDF to function within this framework, and not to purport to determine it. Even if we are dealing with a life-saving measure, as the IDF argues, the Palestinian residents cannot be treated as "means of combat." Just as the police don't endanger neighbors or family members of criminals during attempts to apprehend them, so too must the IDF behave with regard to civilians who are subject to its protection in accordance with international law.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/neighbors-won-t-be-serving-1.171577

Using civilians as human shields is wrong no matter who does it. And the Israeli court ordered the IDF to cease that practice.

I am waiting to find out whether the Hamas "manual" is a fraud or not. I really don't know. Have you seen any statements from Hamas disowning it or any more information about it. If it is a hoax, that should become very clear pretty soon. Please post any information you find either confirming or disproving the authenticity of it.

[bravenak]

133. No I have not seen anybody admitting to it.

Usually they do, so i expect thay if it's real we'll find out soon. The second i see something confirmable i'll make sure to post it. If it's real, it's horrible. Still doesn't excuse killing civilians anyway, though. I think it's time for Israel to let go of Palestine to save Israel.

[JDPriestly]

134. I'm hoping for negotiations and a peace that will be enforced.

(There have been agreements in the past but they did not cover details that needed to be determined and were not enforced.)

The only way to stop the killing is to agree to peace terms. If peace was achieved between Ireland, Northern Ireland and Britain after hundreds of years of terrible oppression, starvation, slavery, disputes and violence, certainly it can be achieved in Palestine/Israel. There have been much worse disputes in history although the dispute in Palestine/Israel is a terrible problem.

Please watch for any news items that either authenticate or dismiss the authenticity of the alleged Hamas "manual." There should be some reliable study of it before too long.

[bravenak]

135. I am hoping for the same thing.

If we could get along in America after years of slavery and Jim Crow, i suspect they can too provided they have a reason. There were many who feared what we would do if freed, and we basically just assimilated as best as we could.

I will keep a look out for something about the manual, if anything more comes up.

[JDPriestly]

136. Yes. I look at all the very cantankerous feuds between nations and

peoples that have been negotiated with a peaceful outcome, and I am optimistic. I think taking one side very strongly over the other no matter what discourages both sides from moving toward peace. It emboldens the side that is supported to refuse to negotiate because it thinks it can win hearts and minds, etc., and it discourages the other side from negotiating because it feels it is too weak and vulnerable to trust a negotiating process.

And those who mediate the negotiations need to be able to fully understand not just the arguments but the emotional sates of the parties that are negotiating.

I think Egypt is trying to negotiate a solution. I wish it luck. I think Kerry is also involved although I don't know whether Israel still trusts him. In any case, I wish Kerry luck too.

[bravenak]

137. I think both sides need to feel a bit of heat before they negotiate.

They are feeling the heat right now. If they keep up the fighting, neither side will be getting any support from anybody. And there will be no Israel or Palestine. It will be one nation stuck together for better or worse. I notice that both sides are headed by right wingers. No wonder they won't compromise. It's a dirty word to them.

[JDPriestly]

167. Hopefully they will negotiate a workable settlement.

The population of the area is very large considering it is desert. They have big problems without a war.

[bravenak]

168. I think they would do better to just work together. Otherwise they should ALL move.

Now I'm starting to see people using this more and more as an excuse to let their antisemitism and islamaphobia loose.
I really didn't notice at first, but now, I find it a bit scary.

[leftynyc]

142. Perhaps Mr. Wiesel

was talking about this:

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/indian-tv-gets-footage-of-militants-preparing-to-fire-rocket-from-civilian-area/

It's not from the Israeli government so it wont be immediately discounted although I'm sure some will try.

[bravenak]

143. You still don't attack civilians.

They set up, shoot, and leave. The IDF knows this. To come back an hour later after those dudes are long gone is a crime. Even if they were shooting missiles from the NICU, that doesn't make it okay to bomb the babies.
You don't shoot the hostage. You send in special forces to take down the shooter. Not bomb the whole building and then complain that the terrorist made you kill all those kids.

[leftynyc]

176. Why on earth should Israeli's

risk the lives of their own people in order to root out the GOVERNMENT of Gaza? hamas is not some group of hooligans that their government is fighting or trying to control. They ARE the government.

[JDPriestly]

172. Thanks. Interesting video.

[chrisa]

165. Hamas are beyond contemptible scumbags and fundies. That doesn't make Wiesel right.

[EX500rider]

169. here's link to the IDF blog with the Hamas manual:

http://www.idfblog.com/blog/2014/08/04/captured-hamas-combat-manual-explains-benefits-human-shields/

[BlancheSplanchnik]

117. Wow...I had no idea of this side of Elie Wiesel

very sad--and disillusioned--to see it.

[burrowowl]

119. K&R!!!!!

I read his books, but Elie Wiesel has now lost my respect.

[emsimon33]

122. Interesting

[Laughing Mirror]

131. Wiesel "one of the major frauds of our time"

Last edited Wed Aug 6, 2014, 04:31 AM - Edit history (1)

Noam Chomsky said this in 1984 and thirty years later Wiesel remains a major fraud or our time.

[Billy Budd]

139. Pop

goes the Wiesel....

[cpwm17]

153. He's a well-paid con artist. n/t

[tritsofme]

174. Such a con-artist and a phony!

[chrisa]

166. Proof? Fraud how?

[CrawlingChaos]

140. I learned the truth about Elie Wiesel several years ago from Norman Finkelstein's invaluable work

Since then, Wiesel has done nothing to dispel Finkelstein's scathing assessment of him, to put it mildly. No, he has no shame whatsoever and no one should be surprised by this.

And yet the myth of the "great man" persists.

[Socialistlemur]

150. Maybe Mr Wiesel thinks Israeli behavior is acceptable.

I don't agree with that opinion. I'm starting to lean towards the use of sanctions against the Netanyahu regime and in particular their top political and military leaders. They should be denied visas and the ability to travel.