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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWP Aug 4. Obama signs bill giving Israel $225 million for missile defense system
Obama signs bill giving Israel $225 million for missile defense systemPresident Obama on Monday signed a bill that will give Israel $225 million to restock its Iron Dome missile defense system.
The House voted 395-8 to pass the bill Friday night.
The missile shield system was developed jointly by the United States and Israel and is said to have intercepted dozens of rockets fired from Gaza during the conflict that began July 17. The system uses advanced tracking technology to determine if a rocket is headed for a population center; if it is it destroys the rocket mid-flight.
"And so, not only have we been supportive of Israel in its right to defend itself, but in very concrete terms -- for example, in support for the Iron Dome program that has intercepted rockets that are firing down on Israeli cities -- we've been trying to cooperate as much as we can to make sure that Israel is able to protect its citizens," Obama said.
395-8. That's a powerful statement.
Meanwhile:
There are large groups around the world protesting the killing in Gaza.
Map of protests
A unique protest from Ireland. They are laying in the streets in support of the people of Gaza.
In support of Gaza
2banon
(7,321 posts)thanks for that. I'm very disappointed that the President signed that authorization. But I didn't honestly believe he wouldn't. Just held out a eensy weensy bit of hope that he would have put his foot down on principle.
Just this once.
madfloridian
(88,117 posts)Yes, you are right. But Bibi warned us not to 2nd guess him again, didn't he?
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)It is an instrument of peace. It is a good idea to support the missile defense system while encouraging the parties to negotiate a settlement. I hope the cease-fire holds and develops into real peace negotiations.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)Have already given to Israel, how it is the Israelis did not put some of it into defense system already???????
Of course, Israeli leaders know our AIPAC controlled congressional members and our Presidents are too scared of disappointing AIPAC to act against that PAC.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)about 85% of the missiles from Gaza. This is a grant to update and repair the system from what I read.
It is an instrument for peace, and I think it is commendable that Israel has invested in it.
truedelphi
(32,324 posts)It gets discussed at length here, in terms of how we paid for it, and as the OP notes, are to pay for more defense.
http://www.middleeastmonitor.com/articles/middle-east/13140-it-is-a-lie-to-say-that-iron-dome-is-protecting-israelis-from-hamas
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)The problem is with offensive measures and the failure to negotiate for a long-term and fair peace and the enforcement of the peace.
JoeyT
(6,785 posts)particularly if there's a guy standing behind it firing indiscriminately into a crowd that has no chance of striking back at him.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Maybe they did not yet have the technology to build the missile defense shield?
Remember. They tried to open up to Palestinians and work with the majority of Palsetinians to start an era of good will. We forget that it is most likely that the majority of both Palestinians and Israelis would most like peace but that a small minority of extremists keeps the area violent.
The short peace was shattered with the Second Intifada. (I remember that well, waking up to news reports of bombs in Israel along with all the other chaos in the world.)
The excuse for the Second Intifada on the Palestinian side is that Sharon marched around the Temple Mount. I guess it is my Protestant/Unitarian upbringing, but I don't understand how people can give so much religious or spiritual meaning to a specific place, but . . . . And besides, isn't one of the criticisms of Israel that it is a "Jewish" state, supposedly therefore intolerant of other religions. The Temple Mount is holy to four religions, not just to the Muslim religion. Anyway that is beyond my understanding.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Intifada
So Israel built a wall. There two views on that. It has saved lives and decreased the violence in Israel which means in the whole area. But it has been determined to be illegal for a couple of reasons by an international court.
Wikipedia explains:
Israel argues that the barrier is necessary to protect Israeli civilians from Palestinian terrorism, including the suicide bombing attacks that increased significantly during the Second Intifada.[6] There has been a reduced number of incidents of suicide bombings since the construction of the barrier. According to statistics published by the Israeli government, between 2000 and July 2003, when the "first continuous segment" of the barrier was built, 73 Palestinian suicide bombings were carried out from the West Bank, killing 293 Israelis and injuring over 1,900. However, from August 2003 to the end of 2006, only 12 attacks were carried out, killing 64 Israelis and wounding 445.[7] Supporters argue that this is indicative of the barrier being effective in preventing such attacks.[8]
Opponents of the barrier object that the route substantially deviates from the Green Line into the occupied territories captured by Israel in the Six-Day War of 1967. They argue that the barrier is an illegal attempt to annex Palestinian land under the guise of security,[9] violates international law,[10] has the effect of undermining negotiations (by establishing new borders),[11] and severely restricts Palestinians who live nearby, particularly their ability to travel freely within the West Bank, including to and from the lands on which their subsistence depends,[12] and to access work in Israel.[13] In a 2004 advisory opinion resulting from a Palestinian-initiated U.N. resolution, the International Court of Justice considered that "Israel cannot rely on a right of self-defence or on a state of necessity in order to preclude the wrongfulness of the construction of the wall". The Court asserted that "the construction of the wall, and its associated régime, are contrary to international law".[14]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier
The rocket attacks on Israel began in 2001.
January 30
Palestinians fired a mortar shell at a house in Netzarim in the Gaza Strip. This was the first time Palestinians had used a ballistic weapon against a Jewish settlement. The shell penetrated the house's roof but was stopped by a concrete ceiling. The family members living in the house were on the ground floor at the time, and there were no injuries.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel,_2001
Here is a list of the lists of rocket attacks since that date:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
According to that list there were 52 rockets and 18 mortars shot into Israel in 2013 resulting in one Israeli death (and, I imagine lots of frightened Israelis). The Iron Dome or missile shield started to work in 2011.
The wall, even if illegal (and seems fair to me that both Palestinians and Israelis lose land to provide safety for both sides even if it is inconvenient for all) is a safety precaution and prevents violence. So is the missile shield in my view.
Here are pictures of the tunnels the Gazans built:
https://www.google.com/search?q=gaza+tunnels&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=ngjhU536Ku3liwKc7YGABw&sqi=2&ved=0CCQQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=517
Some look primitive. Some look pretty sophisticated. I would not like to discover that my neighbor had built a tunnel under my yard to that they could come into my yard. I don't think my neighbors would like it if I did that.
Negotiating a peace settlement here will be very hard. We should not demonize one side of the other. They both represent people with hopes and aspirations. The Israelis are very sophisticated socially (i.e., they have a government with democratic institutions), technologically (the wall, the iron dome, the electronic surveillance capacity, the missiles, etc.) and militarily, but the Palestinians have great aspirations and lots of potential.
The situation as it now stands is on both sides a waste of human life, intellect and opportunity. Both sides need to negotiate a settlement. And the sooner the better.
Israel is a Jewish state but is fairly tolerant of the minorities within it. I think there are Muslims and Christians living in Israel.
I don't think any Jewish people live in the Gaza strip or the West Bank. Am I wrong on that? Because that would mean that the Palestinians really don't have day-to-day contact with Israelis. Am I wrong about that?
I understand that attempts to bring Palestinians and Israelis together for cultural exchanges have not gone well. But it seems to me that is where things have to begin.
If we could end segregation in the South and in communities where it existed in the North, why can't Palestinians and Israelis change the culture in their area? Because of extremists, that is why. The solution is to negotiate peace, encourage and subsidize more cultural exchange gradually including larger groups o people and punish extremists and their supporters on both sides very severely. I would propose a peace process that would begin step by step and be monitored by an outside group including friends of proponents of both sides of the issue to insure compliance.
Fear is the biggest enemy of peace in the Middle East. Religious bigotry and intolerance is based on fear.
I'm rambling, but yes the missile shield is a defense measure. It has not offensive value. The terror and rocket (missile in the broad sense of the term) attacks on Israel justify the shield.
I hope both sides will negotiate peace.
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)So we should just build one around Europe and not assume Russia will see that as a provocation? What's really sad is that US cities are broke and we are giving away billions of dollars to foreign countries, the most to Israel, so they can purchase weapons systems where all the money goes right back into the pockets of the 1% who see fit to base an economy on destruction rather than creation. It's flat out theft.
B Calm
(28,762 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)the periods of armed conflict?
Because the list of rockets from Palestine into Israel between 2001 and 2014 is pretty long.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
The missile shield was begun in 2013. It is a strictly defensive measure. It doesn't shoot missiles. It just catches them.
So is the wall. The wall cannot kill or injure anyone.
The Israeli's have absolutely no intentions of giving Palestinians their autonomy.
That is crystal clear to me now. They're agenda to acquire the Gaza strip to turn it into another 'Tel Aviv' is their ultimate goal. They have to remove the Palestinians in order to accomplish that in any way they see fit.
Their idea of Peace would involve deporting Palestinians to other countries, the ones that survive the bombings or taken as prisoners.
Leaders of Israel would have to radically transform their mindset, I just don't see that ever happening.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Some are makeshift. Some are sophisticated. But if they exit under Israeli territory, they constitute acts of aggression.
I want the parties to negotiate a peace. It will take a long time and a lot of patience to win the peace, but both parties have to compromise to get the peace they need if they are to enjoy prosperity and healthy, long lives. Goes for both sides.
Land can be exchanged, but peace means punishing those who violate peace agreements with impatient, violent acts.
2banon
(7,321 posts)but the key component in all of this, is a recognition that the Palestinians share the same desires and needs as the Israelis. As any OTHER human society. They have just as much RIGHT to not just exist, but to thrive as a community as the Israeli's and in all that implies.
But the Israelis have revealed they want to eliminate the Palestinians from all occupied territories including the Gaza strip. They're demanding that the Palestinians disarm under these conditions. That's a non-starter.
So I guess it depends on what one's definition of "peace" means.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)you raised. Problem is no one walks away happy. Compromises have to be made on both sides -- sometimes on basic principles. It takes a lot of work.
I am wishing Kerry success in his endeavor.
The Anglo-Irish dispute seemed intractable at one time. The British subjugated and abused the Irish for generations, centuries. And the Irish committed terror acts in Britain to try to win certain goals. George Mitchell and Bill Clinton helped broker a peace settlement. That was a nearly intractable dispute. Big compromises were made.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Agreement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troubles
http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/26/world/europe/northern-ireland-mcguinness-queen-handshake/
I never thought I would see that in my life.
There are similar long-standing conflicts that have been negotiated.
Alsace-Lorraine -- though the Allies' winning of WWII was what really ended the dispute.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace-Lorraine
There are many others.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Response to madfloridian (Original post)
1000words This message was self-deleted by its author.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)The bill passed unanimously in the Senate.
You expect Obama to go against all the dems, veto the bill and send it back to Congress where it would have passed anyway because the veto would have been overridden?
Thank you for providing a great example of how people like you cant be taken seriously.
Well done.
msongs
(67,421 posts)4now
(1,596 posts)after this fiasco.
So our Congress has to get down on their knees and kiss his ring in public.
colorado_ufo
(5,737 posts)Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)U.S. Rep. Beto O'Rourke, D-El Paso
U.S. Reps. Keith Ellison, D-Minn
Zoe Lofgren, D-Calif
Jim Moran, D-Va
Justin Amash, R-Mich
Walter Jones, R-N.C.
Thomas Massie, R-Ky
Mark Sanford, R-S.C.
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)i wonder what the republicans' reasoning was.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)types like Rand Paul used to be.
m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)especially if isolationism (which is what i was guessing at) is a libertarian trait, i forget.
isolationism is a libertarian concept.
blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts)onenote
(42,724 posts)Total foreign aid to all countries: Approx $50 billion (1.3%)
Total foreign aid to Israel: $3.1 billion (6% of the 1.3%, or .0008 of the US Budget)
Thought some factual perspective might be useful
MrTriumph
(1,720 posts)Or have it your way: If it is such a token, small sum, why give it away?
onenote
(42,724 posts)Relative to the entire budget, or even the entire foreign aid budget, it is a very shallow "pit."
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Which may take time because both sides need to feel secure enough to choose new leadership if they are to have peace.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)I thought the reason to single out Israel's behavior as opposed to what other countries do is because the US gives them money so Americans bear a degree of responsibility for what happens.
That is not the case in the many European, South American, Asian, and African countries listed above.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)coming out of Europe, I can't take them seriously on this issue at all. It's their own fault and obviously, as you pointed out, has nothing to do with money.
KoKo
(84,711 posts)system isn't that accurate. I only had a minute to catch the first part and will watch later tonight to see why he thinks that. I think he was saying the rockets would explode on their own because they don't have long range..but, I need to watch it.