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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsCongratulations, Hamas.
You won by firing rockets from populated areas knowing full well that a hothead like Netnayahu would send the troops after you, causing the civilian deaths you knew would happen. Even more brilliant is how you got much of the world community to ignore how you goaded this conflict to begin with. Bravo.
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lovemydog
(11,833 posts)But I defend your right to say it here.
The Magistrate
(95,248 posts)And this is something Israeli leadership, both political and military, needs to look at squarely, with an eye towards figuring out a better way to proceed in future. When you are doing what your enemy wants you to do, which Israel has certainly been doing over the last month in Gaza, he is winning and you are losing....
Lithos
(26,403 posts)Hamas played Netanyahu like a fiddle. Even worse, Netanyahu played it like Nero while his house burned.
Your comment also about who controls the initiative is profoundly true. Hamas controlled this from beginning to end. Israel spent all of their time in reactive mode playing catch up dancing to Hamas' tune.
Obvious day one.
I hope Israel sacks Netanyahu for their sake, without raising up shadow of even more extreme and unimaginative leadership.
L-
The Magistrate
(95,248 posts)You will recall it used to be said, unkindly but with some accuracy, that the Palestinians never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Over the last fifteen to twenty years, it seems the line would be equally apt for the Israelis, that for nigh on twenty years now, they have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity. I do not see much difference, in quality or even in apprehension of reality, between the leadership of Arab Palestine and the leadership of Israel, nor do I see much difference in the collective wisdom and sanity of their electorates. Where people are making policy, making political and military decisions, casting votes in elections, on the basis of fantasies, of delusions, whether of grandeur or of persecution or even of divine favor and gift, no good result can be expected.
Lithos
(26,403 posts)Israel is now the one who is missing the opportunities.
The discussion has definitely been a race to the lowest common denominator. Sad when it would be now be easy to say, "I miss Sharon". No, I am not a Sharonist by any stretch. He at least was able to rise above the emotion and articulate a vision - right or wrong. He also seemed to understand the higher order calculus of the situation. Netanyahu is a simpleton who only echoes fear.
Reactive Management is an oxymoron.
I fear it is only going to get worse.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Thanks. Excellent post. There are two sides.
I do think Israel made the right decisions in constructing the wall and the missile defense system. Both are defensive systems as opposed to offensive systems.
The tunnels are inexcusable.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)are you speaking of an internet PR war? Yes a few countries mostly in South America have for now broken ties however those in the real world do not amount to much, and while Netanyahu may be many things a 'hothead' is not one of them IMO, if fact you might be hard put to find a more cold calculating leader today, the the only flies in his ointment have been the hot heads in his own coalition
Bibi knows he has one and only one important dependable friend and that is the US and while twice now during this campaign the US has mildly condemned Israel's actions, that condemnation is quickly erased by actions. The first condemnation came last week and was followed by the 'sales' of $300 million worth of weapons from our stockpiles in Israel (I'm not sure if the check has cleared the bank as of yet) and today followed again quickly by Obama signing additional funding for Iron Dome, in fact his position with what IMO he sees as Israels one true friend is actually better now than it was 2 months ago before this whole episode began
The Magistrate
(95,248 posts)Is is not wise to dismiss as 'an internet PR war' the expression of people's feelings and reactions to these events.
Guerrilla war is more a political struggle than a military struggle, and generally is won on the political rather than the military side, or at the very least, the conditions in which a military victory can be achieved are created by victory on the political side. Israel is without question losing the political side of this struggle, not only around the world, but in the United Stats as well. Israel's leadership imperils the state of Israel if it ignores this, and does not find policies and actions which will address it.
As you observe, Israel has only one friend, the United States, and there are dangers to being dependent on a single patron, however powerful. The unquestioning support a government of the United States gives to Israel is, at bottom, dependent on genuine popular feeling among the people of this country that Israel ought to be supported, which is in turn dependent on genuine popular feeling that Israel deserves to be supported. The recent exercise of force in Gaza has frayed further the popular feeling, even in the United States, that Israel deserves to be supported. You will be aware that I have been for many years here a leading supporter of Israel, and by my lights continue to be a supporter of Israel, but I cannot support or defend as proper action the recent Israeli use of force in Gaza. I think that, without valuing myself overmuch, this hints at a real problem, because I cannot but believe a number of people who share my general sentiments and attitudes exist, and that they must in part at least similarly share my view of these recent actions of Israel.
People often have a faulty view of erosional processes; they have the idea that small changes follow small changes and still more small changes, and so there is never a point where you can see the thing altering before you, but only after ages does it become apparent there has been a change. But in fact, most erosional processes are punctuated by large and sudden alterations; water and ice make a crack in rock, and widen it and widen it and widen it until, one day, gravity takes over, and in an instant great slabs of rock peel off a cliff-face and tumble into the canyon below.
Support for Israel in the United States is starting to take on the lineaments of opposition to allowing homosexuals to marry one another on the same terms as heterosexuals. It is becoming increasingly concentrated among older people, particularly older white people, and among people devoted to fundamentalist Christian sects. As recently as ten years ago, opposition to 'gay marriage' was considered a sure winner by rightist political operatives, and correctly so, but today it is considered a losing proposition, and support for 'marriage equality' is seen to be the main-stream view among the people of the country regardless of the fact that older people and fundamentalist Christians continue to oppose it by large margins. The erosional process that began with mimeograph pamphlets of the Mattachine Society and the Daughters of Bilitis sixty years ago crippled on down the decades, grain of sand by tiny pebble at a time, until in the last few years, a great slab calved off the cliff-face and the landscape changed.
It is this kind of shift in popular opinion here in the United States the leadership of Israel is courting by its present attitude. Their recent actions in Gaza have helped to move this change along. They cannot afford much more of this.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)Bibi has played this entire episode for 'political dimensions' start to finish, both domestically and internationally. Even Saturday when if you followed play by play it seemed he was stumbling, couldn't get it straight, in the end it became it clear that he played it like the pro he is. Now understand me this is not necessarily positive nor is it what is healthy for the future of either people. but it is the agenda he pushes. The US as sole important friend is a situation that has existed for many years and will for the foreseeable continue to exist, why easily because it's a safe political fall back position and I do not see that changing much, you tell me not to discount an internet PR war and make an eloquent case comparing this to the grassroots efforts for Marriage Equality and Gay Rights and yes seeing the internet turn out on behalf of the Palestinian people I was heartened and had such thoughts myself-for a time, but there are major differences in the 2 first being that LGBT Rights and Marriage equality are domestic issues and they touch our everyday lives in an on going way, unlike this was is a relatively short lived flare up in a long standing issue that involves the everyday lives of most Americans very little, it could be filed under this weeks outrage is next weeks fishwrap, the beat goes on.
Also you mentioned that the younger generation was growing less ProIsrael than the older-that's fine all well and good and in 10 years may well have impact but in 10 years what will be left to be impacted on, if the desired outcome is a 2 state solution we must take it account that the Israeli settler population in the West Bank is growing almost exponentially somewhere around 75,000 new settlers per year there are 500,000 living in the West Bank not counting East Jerusalem now what will that number be in 10 years?
As I said none of this is healthy for any of the parties involved but it is IMO the reality we're facing
The Magistrate
(95,248 posts)That the situation is bad, and is not getting better any time soon, if at all.
In terms of Israel's domestic politics, I expect you are right; Netanyahu has probably improved his electoral prospects, and secured a fresh lease on life for his party. I view this as a poisonous development, however, and one which damages the long term prospect for security of the state of Israel, let alone the prospects for a just peace. I agree that the continued expansion of settlements on the territory occupied in '67, which are without doubt illegal, is on course to make a two-state solution wholly impractical, and further, I am convinced it is the policy of the Israeli right to do this, to make it impossible to establish a viable state of Arab Palestine on any portion of the territory allotted for this purpose by the United Nations in the Partition to which Israel itself traces its legitimate establishment. This I consider a very great wrong, and you will know I say this as a person who supports Israel, and considers the Zionist project which worked to create it, and its establishment as a Jewish state, to be no crime but a wholly legitimate act of national self-renewal by a people who really had little choice but to do something of the sort.
azurnoir
(45,850 posts)I'm not a Sir I'm a Ma'am 
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Being too predictable is always a bad strategy.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)two terrorist organizations.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)villager
(26,001 posts)n/t
bigtree
(86,004 posts). . . not a wise or even a moral course, if that is the case.
RandySF
(59,048 posts)One needs the other to promote their causes. Hamas: I'll shoot rockets from our populated areas into your populated areas and you come after us while killing civilians in the process. Likud: I'll keep sending bulldozers into your neighborhoods to build settlements while you kidnap teens and military draftees.
WestCoastLib
(442 posts)When I was in 7th grade I was being harassed at school by a group of kids. I won't bother with the specifics of how or why. However, I eventually had had enough of it and concocted a little plan to make it stop. I subtly provoked a couple of them into punching me in front of a teacher.
We were all sent to the V.P. Who asked for the story. They boys kept saying "he provoked us". I denied it and when pressed for specifics all they could say was "He was looking at us".
Needless to say, my plan worked. They were suspended and never bothered me again.
The point of my story is that the fact that I wanted them to take this action in this case doesn't make the fact that they were the types of kids that wanted to beat me up any less true. In fact it just makes them easily manipulated as well.
So yes, i think most agree that Hamas political plans welcome Israel strikes on their civilians. That just isn't a defense that makes Israel's actions any more justifiable.
I still remember sitting in the VP's office with a smirk on my face as he told them "i'm afraid you can't hit somebody for looking at you". And i waved bye bye to them as i went back to class.
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)I do not know but I should think that the bombs to destroy the missile launching sites were to prepare for the invasion to destroy the tunnels. The missile defense shield lets only about 15% of the missiles through. I do not know this for a fact, but my theory is that the biggest concern of the Israelis was the tunnel system.
Egypt already tried to close the tunnels on their side of Gaza.
It is very sad that the Palestinians have come to this. They should negotiate peace and in negotiating peace ask for international enforcement of the peace. The Palestinians have not been able to enforce the peace in the past.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)April 24, 2014: Hamas and Fatah announce their intention to form a unity Palestinian government. EU responds positively, US responds guardedly, Israel responds negatively.
June 2, 2014: Unity government sworn in
June 12, 2014: Three Israeli settlers go missing in the West Bank.
June 15 - July 1 2014: Netanyahu blames Hamas for the kidnapping. Hamas denies involvement. Israel conducts over a thousand house raids in the West Bank and demolishes houses belonging to families of the Hamas leadership in the West Bank. The IDF kills five Palestinians in the process.
June 28, 2014: Hamas fires its first rocket salvo at Israel in more than twenty months.
July 1, 2014: The bodies of the three yeshiva students are found. Netanyahu states: "Hamas is responsible, and Hamas must pay". Hamas denies involvement.
July 1, 2014: The IDF begins air strikes on Gaza.
July 2, 2014: Jewish settlers kidnap and burn to death an Arab teenager.
July 25, 2014: Israeli police reveal that the three yeshiva students were abducted in a "lone wolf" type scenario, and that it is unlikely that Hamas were involved.
swilton
(5,069 posts)lovemydog
(11,833 posts)My view is that Hamas can be dealt with more efficiently. It is the large number of innocent Palestinians with whom I most sympathize. Especially those who lost family and loved ones. They are human beings, each and every one of them.
Absent much more compelling evidence to the contrary, I do not believe Hamas started this slaughter.
If someone shot a bottle rocket at my house, even someone who hates me to the core, and even if it injured someone in my family, it does not give me the right to destroy that entire person's neighborhood. And if I did do that, I would rightly be declared a mass murderer.
Loudly
(2,436 posts)claiming or denying responsibility, but universally expressing approval of the crime?
In such a vortex of ill will, lashing out is not a surprise.
And what was a unity government supposed to accomplish other than gradually displace Fatah with militants?
And what are all those incursion tunnels doing there built with stolen humanitarian aid?
And why escalate the conflict with rockets unless you welcome getting pounded until you're forced to stop?
All of this results from the refusal to accept Israel's right to peaceful coexistence as a Jewish sanctuary state.
It will always go back to that, and it's a complaint which should have faded away by now.
Likewise the eternal shadow cast by the rivalry between Isaac and Ishmael as told in an ancient story.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)He ate he did and I saw it on the Tv.
I may have seen it. Or did I absorb it osmotically? Either way, there it is.
The news anchors all say the same thing. I am sure not all of them could not lie.
The same way, simultaneously. And for so long.
Because they all tell me similar, simple statements which I
Absorb uncritically and spit out in mutilated haikus.
It is all the Arabs bad Arabs they say. Or was.
It the Vietcong? Ho ho ho chi min. Did we fight them once.
No never fought them. Fought the Arabs. We have always
fought the Arabs. And its because they wont accept Israel.
They fought it because. I wonder what country was there before Israel was there
and maybe that's why they are so upset shut up stop thinking like a communist
They can hear you.
Just be nice, stand to, red white and blue
and eat your greens and bulleeb in Jeesus.
Loudly
(2,436 posts)oberliner
(58,724 posts)In January, Palestinians launched 22 rockets and four mortar shell at Israel in 19 separate attacks.
In February, Palestinian launched nine rockets at Israel in seven separate attacks.
In March, Palestinians launched 65 rockets and mortar shell, in 23 attacks.
In April, There were 19 rockets and 5 mortar shell in 14 attacks towards Israel. These attacks caused property damage, but no deaths or injuries.
Throughout May 4 rockets and 3 mortar shells were launched from Gaza in 5 attacks towards Israel.
Throughout June about 62 rockets and 3 mortar shells were launched from Gaza in about 17 attacks towards Israel. These attacks caused property damage, but no deaths. Four were injured as a result of fire started by a rocket launch.
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)or cited as the reason that Israel went to war.
From Reuters, in April:-
Israel’s army said its strikes hit two training camps run by Hamas, the Palestinian Islamist group that controls Gaza. Medical sources there said two Hamas militants were lightly wounded.
Hamas has largely maintained a truce with Israel since a brief war in late 2012, but it has sometimes struggled to rein in smaller armed Islamist factions hostile to Israel.
There was no claim of responsibility for the latest rocket salvo from any of those factions, who are opposed to troubled peace talks between their Palestinian rivals in the occupied West Bank and Israel.
Two of the projectiles from Gaza exploded in the southern Israeli border community of Sderot in a road and an open area, Israeli police said. There were no reports of any injuries.
Israel holds Hamas responsible for any rocket fire from the Strip and routinely retaliates against it.
Israel for its part killed fifteen civilians in the West Bank alone, including two teens that were shot in cold blood in Beitunia in May as CNN cameras looked on:-
oberliner
(58,724 posts)They are responsible for rocket fire emanating from their territory, no?
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)where the three yeshiva students were killed. They are also the governing authority in East Jerusalem, where the Arab teen was kidnapped and burned to death, as well as where his relative was beaten to a pulp by Israeli police:-
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/07/16/world/meast/jerusalem-us-teen-beating/
Is Israel responsible for all of those?
frylock
(34,825 posts)
KoKo
(84,711 posts)and that PTB/MIC don't want average folks to know... It is so much simpler to say "A Pox on both of them...why don't they just sit down and work this out between them?" rather than focus on the policy/geo-political issues that are involved. So much easier to blame Likud/Zionists and Hamas as extremists who won't play nice with each other than to follow the money and MIC interests in the region.
It's the "backstory" that gets little coverage that's the key.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)is seeing what Palestinians are dealing with on a daily basis, not to mention all the other invasions, the only recourse seems to be to the 'both sides are bad' routine we see here all the time from the Corporate Media, regarding our political parties. It's progress I suppose.
Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)Fred Sanders
(23,946 posts)
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I have lost so much respect for so many people here lately
oberliner
(58,724 posts)I think you are basing it on one statement that was made a little while ago, right? (Or whatever site you got this timeline from)
In any case, there is this:
Suspect in kidnap of 3 teens received funds from Hamas
During his interrogation he admitted that he led the cell that executed the attack – which included Marwan Kawasmeh and – who have yet to be captured. As leader of the group, Hossam raised the funds for the attack from Hamas operatives in Gaza.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4555463,00.html
shaayecanaan
(6,068 posts)The BBC reporter that spoke to the Israeli police is standing firmly by his story. It also appeared that he had the good sense to record the conversation in some form, because the Israeli police are not denying it but they are backpedaling furiously to try and put an alternative spin on it:-
http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html
Further, I didn't get the timeline "off a site". Unlike certain half-witted circle-jerkers on the other side, I am actually capable of aggregating a series of simple facts and typing them out.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)I think it's safe to say that Israel's actions cannot be sustained without the full backing of US foreign policy. If over the course of many years, more people in the US can see Palestinians as human beings with as much right as anyone else to live free, that victory will be for Palestinian people. Not for terrorists who insanely want to wipe Israel off the face of the map. Though I do see your point. Just like the US war in Iraq did sort of play into the hands of the terrorists who attacked us. The overreaction breeds contempt worldwide, and weakens us within by diverting our precious resources.
BlueCheese
(2,522 posts)... such as resisting occupation on one side or self-defense on the other, I wonder how much of the conflict had to do with shoring up political support by each side's leaders. By all accounts Hamas was on the brink of collapse before this conflict (and may still be), and Netanyahu is probably quite a bit more popular now than before. Probably both of them come out better politically, and in that sense, both sides might think the whole thing was a good idea.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)A misunderstanding that seems very common to US discourse on the issue.
(snip)
Another fact that is less known — but perhaps more important — is that within hours of the three teens’ disappearance on June 12, Israeli officials knew that they were dead. Yet for the next two weeks authorities put on a phony rescue effort, instituted a gag order to prevent the public from knowing the truth and rallied the Jewish domestic and diaspora populations in anticipation of their move against Hamas.
(snip)
The blame for their abduction immediately went to Hamas, which denied any involvement in the kidnapping. Israel has offered no concrete proof to implicate Hamas — instead identifying as its prime suspects a rogue faction with a history of defying Hamas’ leadership and sabotaging the group’s peace-building efforts. They were identified early on, meaning that Israel knew full well that neither Hamas nor its armed wing (al-Qassam Brigades) were behind the boys’ disappearance.
(snip)
On June 17, Israel rearrested 50 Palestinian prisoners set free in 2011 as part of the Gilad Shalit prisoner swap with Hamas — a bold provocation that violates its armistice with Hamas. Without cause, the IDF also rounded up a number of clerics, intellectuals and politicians affiliated with or known to be sympathetic toward Hamas. It also raided hundreds of Palestinian sites, including homes, businesses, universities and clinics — in the process pillaging more than $3 million in cash and property, in violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.
In mid-June, in preparation for the reprisal attacks from Hamas that the IDF was attempting to provoke, it moved its Iron Dome batteries into southern Israeli cities. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu then called on Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to dissolve the unity government with Hamas — reiterating previous threats of punitive measures unless the union is suspended. Meanwhile, the IDF began calling up reserve troops in anticipation of the ground assault.
All these provocations came weeks before Hamas fired the first rockets into Israel.
http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2014/7/israel-hamas-palestiniansconflictunitedstatesinternationallaw.html
If anyone is responsible for provocation in bringing on the conflict? It's the Israeli government. For some reason, however, the common narrative in the USA in relation to this situation seems to almost inevitably be some variation of the following: Israel is the innocent victim of unprovoked and irrational aggression on the part of militant extremists. Israel's actions re the populations of the occupied territories, and Israel's continued and repeated actions in doing things like further expanding settlements in contravention of international law have absolutely no bearing, somehow.
lovemydog
(11,833 posts)Even those who seem to have a lot of knowledge of the situation, much more than me, seem to keep talking about Israel. I'm more interested in learning more about Palestinians. If I want to learn more and more and more about Israel, I will consume more and more and more of US media.
malaise
(269,103 posts)
BainsBane
(53,038 posts)about Hamas using civilian shields. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5334487
I found his account convincing.
KansDem
(28,498 posts)It changed my mind.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)have been found to house hamas rockets - found by the UN - but of course, Israel lies. hamas are poor little innocent victims (vomit)
DanTex
(20,709 posts)The lie that kicked off this little conflict was that the three kidnapped teenagers were taken by Hamas, and thus Israel was justified in going around arresting whoever they wanted.
BainsBane
(53,038 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)You'd have to not kill civilians. Hamas did not win. Israel lost the future. They lost my generation, they lost the support of many nations and they better get some act right before they completely deligitimize themselves. This is what happens when right wingers run a nation. Likud is worse than Hamas.
underthematrix
(5,811 posts)second, Israel has the most sophisticated intelligence gathering equipment in the world. There's no way they did not know about the tunnels WHILE THEY WERE BEING CONSTRUCTED and who was building them. A surgical strike targeting the just the folks who were doing the deed would have been a better strategy. third, why do significantly more people die in Gaza compared to the number in Israel. That last piece definitely doesn't make sense.
Submariner
(12,504 posts)Israel moves Palestinians off their land and then builds settlements of Israeli-only homes where Palestinian homes used to be. What does the Hamas organization otherwise do when their country is being stolen from them?
It's obvious hundreds of years of violence between these races hasn't solved a thing, but what does one do when apartheid walls go up cutting you off from your property, and interlopers move onto that property all the while mocking the people they displaced?
onenote
(42,724 posts)Indeed, nearly a decade ago Israeli settlers in Gaza were forced, by Israel, to leave and their homes were, by Israel, torn down. Israel has no designs on re-settling Gaza.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)which are occupied territories. That land is not theirs. It is Palestinian land and the site of any future Palestinian state under various existing two-state proposals. Israel's building of settlements in the occupied territories even if not in Gaza still constitutes both a sustantiative breach of their obligations under internatonal law as occupying power, and a substantiative provocation.
onenote
(42,724 posts)I don't agree with the creation of Israeli settlements and think they should be dismantled as part of a peace process. Hamas firing rockets from Gaza doesn't help that process, imo.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)You can't pretend it's irrelevant.
rateyes
(17,438 posts)and Hamas won? Tell that bullshit to the dead Palestinian children.
If I were in charge in Gaza, there would be no quiet in Israel until Israel ends the occupation of Palestine, dismantles the illegal settlements, and leaves the people to live in peace and freedom.
Rhinodawg
(2,219 posts)But we did learn some things...
The Palestinians have lost because they hopefully realized they voted for a bunch of murderers who don't give a shit about them. They WERE used as human shields repeatedly being told not to leave their homes despite Israeli warnings by leaflets and phone calls. Hopefully the Palestinians realize they were used as TV propaganda and fodder by their leaders that HIDE in Qatar. Reportedly 30 anti-Hamas Palestinians were murdered in cold blood by Hamas for speaking out against Hamas.
Hamas may have baited the attacks but their rockets were all but destroyed in mid air.
They also figured the Arab governments would come running to their help and Hamas now knows , that they want Hamas to be destroyed. One Egyptian commentator told Hamas " the whole world goes to hell because of you".
We don't know and we may not know how much Israel degraded Hamas military abilities. How many leaders / lower military personnel are now dead. And Hamas terror tunnels have been destroyed.
Israel lost a number of their Idf. Actually Netanyahoo waited more than a week before saying "enough". And sadly innocents were killed as in all wars. No war is like movies or cartoons with sterile attacks. Sorry, like it or not, Hamas wanted this war so the blood is on their hands.
It's is obvious that peace will never be achieved with a terrorist group that lies and cheats and murders.
Hamas wants to kill....they must be eliminated.
But again, the final ending has yet to be seen.
intaglio
(8,170 posts)Simplistic idiocies like yours ignore many things. The rockets were a response to IDF violence and revenge following the abduction of the 3 hitch hikers.
The abduction of the hitch hikers was committed by an isolated group who were given up by the Palestinian Authority but the IDF blamed Hamas.
The isolated group were acting from the same revenge fantasies that have driven settler attacks and Israeli oppression.
The settlers are confronting Palestinians because they believe they have the absolute right to occupy Palestinian land and, largely, have the support of Likud.
The whole sorry tale on the Palestinian side goes back to the Nakba, the tale on the Israeli side is sourced from the terrible oppression the Jewish peoples suffered in Europe.
Response to RandySF (Original post)
Renew Deal This message was self-deleted by its author.
GliderGuider
(21,088 posts)The myopia of power...
bemildred
(90,061 posts)
eridani
(51,907 posts)
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)Have Google Earth?
Go to:
31.18'56.18 N
34.15'26.33 E
Actually lots of empty spaces in Gaza to fire rockets from if you were worried about civilian casualties.
eridani
(51,907 posts)It's an outdoor prison camp.
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)Singapore and Hong Kong are 2 to 3 times more populated per square mile.
eridani
(51,907 posts)EX500rider
(10,849 posts)eridani
(51,907 posts)Israel is just a vicious imperial power with massive military resources. Tinker toy rockets barely count as that.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)buffer zone, and/or otherwise off limits to the Palestinian population? I'm betting the answer isn't "zero."
EX500rider
(10,849 posts)stranger81
(2,345 posts)EX500rider
(10,849 posts)But if given the choice of firing a rocket at my enemies from a wide open space or next to a apartment building and knowing there will be return fire I would pick the open space myself to keep civilians safe.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)with no success. Any light others can shed on this issue would be much appreciated.
malaise
(269,103 posts)Israel attacked Gaza after wrongly accusing Hamas of killing three young Israeli men.
Please.
LexVegas
(6,080 posts)And reignite a lot of hatred of Jews in Europe and elsewhere.
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)not necessarily Hamas. When a country indiscrimantely bombs shelters that they know are sheltering people, that kinda turns the tide. A lot has happened in this "conflict" that hasn't put Israel in a very good light and that isn't Hamas' fault--that is the fault of Israel, or specifically, Netanyahu.
As far as the hatred of Jews in Europe and elsewhere, again, I think the onus is on Netanyahu not Hamas.
leftynyc
(26,060 posts)win for hamas. Now they can continue to spend all the money sent to the Palestinians on rockets and building more tunnels all while blaming Israel.
CJCRANE
(18,184 posts)as he always does.
The only difference this time is that the rest of the world isn't buying his warmongering BS anymore.
riqster
(13,986 posts)"Those skilled at making the enemy move do so by creating a situation to which he must conform; they entice him with something he is certain to take, and with lures of ostensible profit they await him in strength."
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)Israel its excuse to launch it's attack.
That, along with a soldier that Hamas DIDN'T kidnap.
Congratulations Israel. You've brainwashed a bunch of people so much that now you can build another batch of illegal settlements on the 40% of Gaza you've just pulverized.
While simultaneously crowding the Palestinian people into even less land, all the easier to blame Hamas for trying to defend.
All the easier to commit the genocide your political leaders are now openly calling for.
Congratulations Israel. You are one step away now from the final solution we once saved you from. VILE. EVIL. You have become the monster.
hack89
(39,171 posts)a constant attack on Israel. You make it sound like there was peace.
Bodhi BloodWave
(2,346 posts)and Hamas had been working with the IDF on preventing rockets being fired from within Gaza if we were to believe some news reports
I find it silly to blame Hamas for something it didn't do and were working to prevent if that is accurate
hack89
(39,171 posts)it is one of those fundamental responsibilities that goes with winning elections and governing.
Secondly - Hamas controls the police and has their own network of sympathizers and informants. You really expect me to believe that any group can carry out a sustained rocket launching campaign without Hamas knowing about it? Give me a break.
Bodhi BloodWave
(2,346 posts)on one group is not logical since not all factions are aligned
You can't really put the actions of a rival faction/group as their fault, as stated, Hamas had been working with the IDF to curb rockets being fired which included arresting people who tried or did fire them.
*
A Salafi official told the newspaper that his group refused to comply with the cease-fire agreement and would continue firing rockets at Israel. The Hamas government arrested Salafi jihadists who claimed responsibility for rocket fire at Israel, the paper reported.
*
And to be honest, yes i do think that even with the amount of informants and such Hamas has that they are not omnipresent and able to know about every attack planned by rival factions/groups, its not like most groups are stupid enough to leave papers behind with a schedule of when they will fire rockets or whatnot. They can stop a fair number of them but thinking they can stop every one is folly as not even the Commander of IDF's Gaza Division expects that.
*
“Today Hamas and other actors in Gaza are acting to stop the rocket fire. They don’t always succeed, and where they fail, the IDF acts,” the general said.
*
the two snippets within the *'s are from a Jerusalem post article that was posted last year
hack89
(39,171 posts)you are in essence saying there is no one in control of Gaza.
Bodhi BloodWave
(2,346 posts)What i'm saying is that Hamas is in control, but not COMPLETE control, as is becoming repetitive, they were working to curb rockets being fired.
I am curious though, how do you think they should solve the problem of rival factions not abiding by agreements Hamas makes with Israel regarding the cessation of rockets being fired?(aside from the arresting when possible as mentioned in my last post?)
As a slight sidetracking from the above
Do you consider the Israeli government as the people responsible when settlers in the west bank destroy Palestinian olive trees and crops, when they 'price tag' Palestinian property or attack/wound Palestinians?
After all, why should the Palestinians work with Israel when they can't keep their own people(settlers) under control?
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Penned in, have their means of producing food controlled, killed, homes destroyed.
People ask - what would you do if they were lobbing rockets at you? So I ask back, what would you do if where you lived became a prison, your land taken, your crops dying because you aren't allowed to tend to them, your freedom of movement restricted, etc? Be thankful?
The report calls on Israeli authorities to put an end to restrictions of access to land and to markets for Palestinian farmers. Physical barriers such as checkpoints and road blocks prevent the free movement of people and goods within the West Bank and cut Palestinian agricultural produce, including olives and olive oil, off from internal, Israeli and international markets. Due to the presence of numerous Israeli settlements and outposts – which are all illegal under International Law – in the West Bank, settler attacks or harassment against Palestinian olive farmers are common and often increase during the time of the harvest. The Israeli imposed blockade on the Gaza Strip has also affected the import of olives and olive oil from the West Bank considerably.
For an interesting view on things, here is an interview I did with a documentary film maker who covers Gaza:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1t0lPNUviuI#t=183
frylock
(34,825 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)What happened to our passionate anti-war DU? I am heartbroken by the posts excusing murder and blaming the victims. Collective punishment is a war crime. And it is collective punishment.
William769
(55,147 posts)closeupready
(29,503 posts)
Distant Quasar
(142 posts)Once more manipulated by their foes into committing savage war crimes, after all their sincere efforts to convince Palestinians to roll over and peacefully accept their destiny as helots.
aint_no_life_nowhere
(21,925 posts)and member of the Likud Party. The guy is a nut. He wants to give the people of Gaza three choices, either let Israel kill them, sign a statement of loyalty to Israel (of course not as citizens of Israel with any rights), or agree to removal to camps in the Sinai. He referred to Gaza as if it's really a part of Israel and always will be.
Maybe both sides in this are happy with the way this is turning out. Hamas as you suggest in the OP is glad to get their people killed in exchange for a favorable opinion by the world community. I suspect there are some right wingers in Israel who are happy to drive the Palestinian people into the arms of Hamas so they don't have to negotiate a peace with the more moderate Palestinian National Authority to let Palestinians retake the settlements, negotiate the right to access to Jerusalem and end the status of Gaza as a giant prison camp. Some in Israel (like Feiglin) don't want Jews to be in the extreme minority in what they see as greater Israel which includes Gaza and the West Bank.
stranger81
(2,345 posts)aint_no_life_nowhere
(21,925 posts)and the guy was hard to pin down. That's about as critical as Blitzer gets.
