An Auschwitz Survivor speaks about Palestine

[Douglas Carpenter]

[upaloopa]

1. Well, I agree with this man.

Why can't some people see the truth he is speaking?

[Warpy]

2. Sadly, a lot of us agree with him

Israel has clearly lost its way in its hunger for new land and ugly parallels to past criminal governments around the planet are emerging.

[alsame]

3. K&R nt

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

4. A voice of reason stating the obvious. K&R

[closeupready]

5. K&R

[Garthem]

6. A sad K&R

[abakan]

7. Thank You !!

Finally someone put into words what many of us are feeling.
Wish I could rec it hundreds of times.

[DeSwiss]

8. Well at least no one can easily criticize an Auschwitz survivor.....

...for misusing Nazi parallels and metaphors when discussing the similarities between the two issues.

- Although I doubt that the people who need to see it most, will ever see it at all......

K&R

[Plucketeer]

10. Even those who DO see this - most will dismiss it out of hand.

I am of NO FAITH at all. Trust me, that lack of a tether affords me the vision so many faithful don't have. This is simply people mistreating other people. There's no right or wrong "beliefs" involved - just greed and inhumanity.

For me - personally - it's really aggravating that MY country hands out MY tax dollars so that these "chosen ones" can do this to folks they deem worthless. I'm willing to bet my federal congressdunce could NOT point to Israel on a map, yet he's willing to send Israel MORE money when they could easily fund their persecutions by themselves! In fact, NONE of my supposed representatives have EVER asked for my opinions about the Israeli situation or our backing of said same.

[DeSwiss]

21. If your Congressdunce watches FOX......

...then I'm certain they can't pick out Israel on a map!

- I joke to keep from losing it completely......

[Douglas Carpenter]

18. so far no one has, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit

[DeSwiss]

22. I think the tide is starting to turn. n/t

[valerief]

9. K&R

[tom_kelly]

11. Very well said

But it's hard to get through to anyone who thinks they are executing God's plan.

[santamargarita]

12. He's exactly right!

[PatSeg]

13. There is often a big difference

between the people who have actually suffered under extreme oppression and the people who use the suffering of others in the past as an excuse for their present behavior.

What the Israeli government is doing to the Palestinian people does not honor the memory of all those who suffered under the Nazis during World War II. I am sure this is not what they would have wanted.

[Douglas Carpenter]

20. indeed

[McCamy Taylor]

14. K&R

Spirituality must be reclaimed by the people---this goes for all religions. No state should be able to co-opt a spiritual message and use it to oppress. That goes for Islam, too.

[libodem]

15. I'm so touched

I knew I was going to cry when I clicked. He put into words what is in my heart. I have an unfathomable deep genuine positive regard for the history of the Jews and the people of the present. I'm a born liberal. I was taught not to be a bigot or to be prejudiced. My parents were great. They wanted us to have discernment and good sense but not to be judgmental.

It rips me when I've been called antisemitic in the I/P forum for standing up for the Palestinians. I have to get over it like I have other bad names. Sticks and stones. What they think of me does not matter. I will speak out.

[Jack Rabbit]

16. I hope any one who allows his frustration with Bibi cross into anti-semitism sees this

The Jews are not just a good people, but they are a noble people.

Netanyahu and his partners on the Israeli right are so concerned about making sure the that future Jews facing that level of persecution will have a sanctuary in Israel have become what they most hate. Our argument is with them.

[JDPriestly]

17. The list of Palestinian attacks on civilians is very long.

Israel is in the tradition of Abraham as are Muslims and Christians.

Abraham, if you remember, was asked to sacrifice his child to God. God interrupted Abraham's ritual sacrifice and substituted an animal in the place of the child.

Eric Auerbach wrote a book called Mimesis which is an excellent book of literary criticism. In writing about the story of Abraham, Auerbach explains that its significance is in the fact that , first, God speaks to a human being and second, that God rejects human sacrifice. That was a milestone in our civilization in valuing human life above all else.

I differ with the speaker in the video on one point. I think that when this story is fully told, we will realize that, and I point this out again, when faced with deaths of Israelis due to suicide bombers and other bombs within Israel, Israel built a wall to keep bombers out. When rockets were sent to kill and injure Israelis, Israel built a missile shield at incredible expense. The wall and the missile shield were defense tactics. They were not weapons to be used in offense.

But Palestinians still wanted to attack Israelis, so they built tunnels in order to circumvent the peaceful defenses of Israel. The deaths we see are horrible. They should not happen. But neither should Palestinians be placing bombs in Israel or shooting rockets into Israel or building tunnels into Israel.

Israel is trying to defend its people. Is Palestine? I think that the Palestinians risk the lives of the Palestinian people with their rockets and bombs and tunnels. Why are they attacking Israel?

The land was acquired by Israel when Palestine attacked Israel and lost. Israel could easily give the land back if Palestinians gave Israel peace.

Israel's weakness is its adherence to the Abrahamic value of protecting the lives of its people. The Muslims and Christians in Palestine share that same Abrahamic tradition.

As I see it, Israel has tried to defend itself without taking Palestinian lives, but the Palestinians have found a new way to attack Israel and to defy each defense system.

Sorry, but the Palestinians need to value the lives of their people more than their homeland. When they do, they will have their homeland back. There will be room enough for all.

The killings are tragic and very horrible. But they do not tell the whole story in my opinion.

[Douglas Carpenter]

19. Israeli attacks on Civilians so outnumber Palestinian attacks the numbers are so lopsided

Last edited Mon Aug 4, 2014, 11:53 PM - Edit history (1)

that it is almost ridiculous to compare. But don't take my word for it. Check with ANY mainstream internationally recognized credible human rights monitoring organization - from Amnesty International to Human Rights Watch to the International Committee of the Red Cross. Check with ANY of them. BTW: Christian Palestinians overwhelming stand with their Muslim brothers in the fight for a just and lasting peace based on equality of human worth. You are quite mistaken if you think Christian Palestinians side with the Israelis. Are there other countries were the indigenous population agreed to surrender half their land to alien settlers without a fight? There is not a shred of evidence that Israel is willing to remove enough settlements or any settlements to even make a viable contiguous Palestinian state even possible. In fact Bibi has made it clear that he has no intentions of removing one single settler. There is not a shred of evidence that the State of Israel views " the peace process" as anything other than scam to buy time while making a Palestinians state impossible. And they have already succeeded.


There are 534,224 settlers in the West Bank including East Jerusalem as of 2010**. According to B'tselem: The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights, " the built-up area of the settlements in the West Bank covers 1.7 percent of the West Bank, the settlements control 41.9 percent of the entire West Bank" .*

**http://www.fmep.org/settlement_info/settlement-info-and-tables/stats-data/comprehensive-settlement-population-1972-2006

http://www.btselem.org/English/Maps/Index.asp

full PDF map:

http://www.btselem.org/Download/Settlements_Map_Eng.pdf




http://www.ft.com/cms/s/728a69d4-12b1-11dc-a475-000b5df10621,Authorised=false.html?_i_location=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ft.com%2Fcms%2Fs%2F0%2F728a69d4-12b1-11dc-a475-000b5df10621.html%3Fnclick_check%3D1&_i_referer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2Fdiscuss%2Fdu#axzz2ZoDLB6il



“there is no Palestinian state, even though the Israelis speak of one.” Instead, he said, “there will be a settler state and a Palestinian built-up area, divided into three sectors, cut by fingers of Israeli settlement and connected only by narrow roads."

Israel has never slowed down its relentless settlement expansion - EVER!



Comprehensive Settlement Population 1972-2008
— filed under: general-stats, stats


Year West Bank Gaza Strip East Jerusalem Golan Heights Total
1972 1,182 700 8,649 77 10,608
1983 22,800 900 76,095 6,800 106,595
1985 44,100 1,900 103,900* 8,700 158,700
1989 69,800 3,000 117,100 10,000 199,900
1990 78,600 3,300 135,000 10,600 227,500
1991 90,300 3,800 137,300 11,600 243,000
1992 101,100 4,300 141,000 12,000 258,400
1993 111,600 4,800 152,800 12,600 281,800
1995 133,200 5,300 157,300 13,400 309,200
1996 142,700 5,600 160,400 13,800 322,500
1997 154,400 5,700 161,416 14,300 335,816
1998 163,300 6,100 165,967 14,900 350,267
1999 177,411 6,337 170,123 15,313 369,184
2000 192,976 6,678 172,250 15,955 387,859
2002 214,722 7,277 175,617 16,503 414,119
2003 224,669 7,556 178,601 16,791 427,617
2004 234,487 7,826 181,587 17,265 441,828
2005 258,988 0 184,057 17,793 460,838
2006 268,400 0 186,857 18,105
473,362
2007 276,462 0 189,708 18,692 484,862
2008 295,380 0 n/a 19,083 n/a
2009 299,440 0 191,960 19,248 510,648
2010 314,132 0 198,629 19,797 534,224


*1986 data

Source: Central Bureau of Statistics, Statistical Abstract of Israel, 1992-2008 and List of Localities, the Populations, and Symbols, 1995-2008. Statistical Yearbook of Jerusalem, Jerusalem Institute for Israel Studies, 1991-2010.

http://www.fmep.org/settlement_info/settlement-info-and-tables/stats-data/comprehensive-settlement-population-1972-2006

[JDPriestly]

24. And yet, there is no answer but to negotiate peace.

Violence will not get anyone anywhere. It simply and predictably engenders more fear and more repression.

Netanyahu is elected by frightened and angry Israelis. Hamas was elected by frightened and angry Palestinians.

I do not believe that either all Israelis or all Palestinians are frightened and angry. And I believe that those Israelis and Palestinians and Israelis who are not frightened and angry have to gather the courage to make peace.

The parties to this dispute are imprisoned by their own vicious circle. I am praying for peace, but there are ALWAYS two sides to a dispute. ALWAYS. And to achieve peace, the mediator has to be able to understand both sides. Here on DU we should speak on behalf of both sides and try to further peace, not take one side against the other. I know that the Palestinians have just grievances. But so do the Israelis. We hear almost entirely only about the Palestinian grievances on DU. And in other media and especially some churches in the US, you hear only the Israeli side.

There are two sides. We must listen to both. That, I believe, is how you encourage peace.

[Douglas Carpenter]

25. Here is a very sensible conversation representing both side of the argument

Last edited Tue Aug 5, 2014, 03:44 AM - Edit history (1)

with Shlomo Ben Ami, Former Israeli Foreign Minister and Chief Israeli Negotiator under the Ehud Barack Labor Government as he debates or discusses the process with Professor Norman Finkelstein:

http://www.democracynow.org/2006/2/14/fmr_israeli_foreign_minister_shlomo_ben

Unfortunately, the current Israeli government or any likely alternative Israeli government that could plausibly be formed within the foreseeable future is not as reasonable as Shlomo Ben Ami. When the current Israeli Prime Minister rejects in principle removing any settlers and the current Israeli Foreign Minister, Avigdor Lieberman is so extreme that if it wasn't for the very special relationship America has with Israel - there is no way our government would even allow him to visit America. Under these circumstances - it is hard to imagine what there is to negotiate.

[JDPriestly]

26. Well. They have to negotiate. There is no other choice.

I will watch those clips later. Thanks.

The big issue is whether Palestinians can enforce a peace.

The parties have no choice but to negotiate.

[underthematrix]

28. But why would anyone want to raise their children in Israel. It is a place of hate.

Are the people used as cover for the Israeli military to do their mischief? Most people are very protective of their children. Why would they want to raise their children in a place where hate and paranoia are the two main cultural narratives. very strange.

[The Second Stone]

23. Dr. Hajo Meyer is sadly exactly correct on what Israel has become:

the same as the fascists. This is not radical, or a minority view, it is most of the world's view. Israel cannot declare a whole people criminal when they lock up a whole people. Gaza is a lock up. Israel is as wrong declaring Palestinians criminals and vermin as when Nazi Germany did it to the Jews. It is clear that you are conflating an entirely imprisoned people with the ones of them that commit criminal acts.

[Spider Jerusalem]

32. A few salient points absent from that:

The armed resistance of the Palestinians to Israeli occupation arises principally, over the past decade, from the pointed refusal of the Israeli government to freeze settlement expansion and withdraw from settlements in the occupied territories. (Which is in violation of international law.)

If Israel wanted peace? They could withdraw from the settlements and stop building new ones. They haven't and show no intention of so doing.

14 years old and sadly still very relevant, here:

...in international law, Palestinian resistance to occupation is a legally protected right. For 33 years (NB: now 47 years), Israel has administered a military occupation of the West Bank, the Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem in consistent and relentless defiance of the overwhelming will of the organized international community. The international consensus has been expressed through widely supported resolutions passed by the Security Council and the General Assembly of the United Nations (hereafter UNSC and UNGA). UN Resolutions 242 and 338 affirmed the legal obligation of Israel to withdraw from Palestinian territories obtained in the 1967 Six Day War. This must be the end point of any peace process that can bring lasting peace. Until such time as Israel respects this obligation, the relevant principles of international law are contained in the Fourth Geneva Convention concerning the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War (August 12, 1949), in particular those provisions of the Convention that require an occupying power to protect the status quo, human rights and prospects for self-determination of the occupied people, and oblige all signatories to enforce the Convention in the face of "grave breaches." Since 1967 and during the current uprising, Israel has refused to accept this framework of legal obligations. Its refusal has been pronounced, blatant and undisguised. Not onl¥ has Israel failed to withdraw from the Occupied Territories, during the occupation Israel has "created facts" -- heavily armed settlements, bypass roads and security zones in the midst of a future Palestinian state -- that seriously compromise basic Palestinian rights.

As long as Israel maintains its occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, it is bound to respect the fundamental human rights of the Palestinian people under the Fourth Geneva Convention (Geneva IV). Geneva IV imposes an underlying obligation on an occupying power to protect the civilian population as specified in considerable detail in Articles 47-78. Of particular importance is Article 47 that affirms "the inviolability of rights" granted to the civilian population that can in no circumstances be suspended or evaded. Article 49 has been interpreted as prohibiting both forced deportations of Palestinians and population transfers of the sort associated with the establishment and continuous expansion of Israeli settlements. Article 50 imposes a special burden on the occupying power to protect children from the effects of war and accompanying hardships. The international community has a duty to take steps, in accordance with Article 1 of Geneva IV, to secure Israeli compliance with the relevant provisions of international humanitarian law. The language of Article 1 is clear: "The High Contracting Parties [that is, the governments of all major states] undertake to respect and to ensure respect for the present Convention in all circumstances."

Israel has contested the application of Geneva IV on the grounds that it has claims to the Palestinian territories, and that since their legal status is not fully established, it is not an instance of "belligerent occupation." As a result, Israel claims not to be formally bound by international humanitarian law. Although, with considerable ambiguity, Israeli officials have periodically acknowledged a willingness to abide by Geneva IV on a discretionary and de facto basis, Israeli government behavior has failed to exhibit a comparable willingness and capacity to act in compliance. The UN has consistently refused to be diverted by this obfuscating tactic. As recently as October 7, 2000 in UNSC Resolution 1322, adopted by a vote of 14-0, with the US abstaining, the UN "called upon Israel to abide scrupulously by its legal obligations and its responsibilities" under Geneva IV.

http://www.merip.org/mer/mer217/international-law-al-aqsa-intifada

[Uncle Joe]

27. I agree.

Thanks for the thread, Douglas Carpenter.

[woo me with science]

29. K&R

[snagglepuss]

30. Deeply moving and so on point.

thank you for posting

[Douglas Carpenter]

31. knr