FACEPALM: Republicans Had To Explain To GOP Colleagues WHY Torture Is Wrong.

[kpete]

WASHINGTON -- Ahead of the expected release of a massive, damning report on the Central Intelligence Agency's use of torture in the years after 9/11, at least two Republican senators felt the need to explain something to their GOP colleagues: Torture is wrong.

That was the message Sens. John McCain (R-Ariz.) and Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.) relayed as Congress recessed until September, anticipating the possible release of a declassified version of the Senate Intelligence Committee's report of 600-plus pages on CIA abuses.

They felt compelled to speak out because several Republican members of the committee are believed to have written a dissenting section of the report that contends that torture helped save American lives.


McCain, a former member of the Intelligence Committee who knows the report's outline, and Graham, a military lawyer, dispute that the torture of terrorism suspects helped prevent attacks. But even if it did, they argue, any benefit was far outweighed by the damage done to America's reputation and the resulting boost to terrorists' ability to recruit new members.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/04/cia-torture_n_5648234.html

[arcane1]

1. To be fair...

Their colleagues are complete idiots.

[gaspee]

3. You made me LOL - literally (n/t)

[underpants]

4. Right

Let's keep it fair.

[SharonAnn]

41. One time that I agreed with Sen. John McCain

In 2005:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2005/11/who_they_are.html

"It's not about who they are. It's about who we are."

So said Sen. John McCain, in defending his amendment to a defense appropriations bill that would bar U.S. officials from inflicting "cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment" on detainees in the war on terror.

[underpants]

2. Remember how Republicans thought the TV show "24" should be US policy?

Several articles and multiple TV appearances with their pundit cadre praising "24" and saying that the FAKE TV SHOW should be the standard for US policy.

They resell believed that nonsense.

[Hekate]

35. I always wondered whose idea in the Bush admin that piece of propaganda was. I mean it. nt

[underpants]

37. I took it as them trying to seem tougher more manly

And in doing so feminize the Dems

[Spitfire of ATJ]

42. There are people to this day who believe Miami Vice was real...

They actually believe there were regular shootouts like open warfare between cops and Enemy#1 of Reagan Era - The dreaded "Columbian Drug Lords".

[underpants]

44. And no one bled?

Really? I didn't know that

[Spitfire of ATJ]

45. It was another example of the Right claiming they are the heroes to protect us,...

....from the phantom enemy they created.

Turns out a lot of Columbian cocaine was run by the CIA to fund covert operations.

[svpadgham]

48. Miami Vice was all kinds of fake...

The A-Team? Now, that shit was real!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

49. That show was a hoot. They'd come in guns blazing and nobody ever got shot.

[BrotherIvan]

5. Apparently it's no big deal to some "Democrats" here

We no longer have the moral high ground. Calling Republicans idiots then doing the same thing is pure hypocrisy.

[msanthrope]

14. Kindly point me to the DUer who thinks torture is no big deal. nt

[BrotherIvan]

15. ~

[URL=http://www.sherv.net/][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[msanthrope]

20. Still waiting for you to point one out. nt

[BrotherIvan]

23. Anyone who rushes to defend PBO over condemning torture thinks it is no big deal

I won't point out any specific DUers, but they are all over every thread discussing this topic. Anyone who asks, "What else could he do, his hands are tied!" is not concerned about torture. They are more concerned about shutting down criticism of the President.

Look at the link in this post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5339830

After letting the reality of what we are speaking about sink in, please tell me what is more important:

A) "Arguing all over threads that "Obama grew up in the Midwest and 'folks' is just a colloquialism."

OR

B) Making sure you let your elected officials and the world know that there is no excuse--none--for torture and that you will hold them accountable to make sure it never happens again?

If you put all your energy into defending Obama, you just derail discussion. We should be discussing how we can make our voices heard. We should be uniting as Democrats, as we did when Bush was committing these atrocities. Instead, Democrats are showing themselves to be just as hypocritical as Republicans.

[msanthrope]

25. Well, to be fair, it's not Obama supporters who brought up the word "folks" as an issue. You cannot

have it both ways....you cannot both complain about his use of the word "folks" and then complain when it actually becomes a debated topic. But I think we agree--B is more important that A.

As to B, I think that's a pretty nebulous cliché. Our voices have been heard--we elected the man currently in the White House. As to our elected officials, I think the Senate Democrats are trying to hold people accountable--thus the report.

The next step, however, is reckoning how one holds the actual torturers accountable.

[BrotherIvan]

30. We must let those we voted for know that this is not acceptable

Obama's Administration has been working from the beginning to actively quash any attempt to prosecute the torturers and war criminals.

One of the little reported details from the latest batch of Wikileaks material are cables showing that the Obama Administration worked hard behind the scenes not only to prevent any investigation of torture in the United States but shutdown efforts abroad to enforce the Geneva Conventions and the Convention Against Torture. This includes threatening the Spanish that, if they did not derail a judicial investigation, it would have serious consequences in bilateral relations.

http://jonathanturley.org/2010/12/02/wikileaks-obama-administration-secretly-worked-to-prevent-prosecution-of-war-crimes-by-the-bush-administration/

When some argue that Republicans would block any attempts to hold them accountable in the US, the answer is, we don't have to do that. Just allow the international community to try them as they have attempted to do. The world needs to make sure that torture is not allowed. How can they hold any other country responsible if they fail to do so to the US?

[msanthrope]

31. Look....Jonathan Turley is Libertarian who supported impeaching Clinton and

Obama. I don't believe a frackin' thing he writes.

I look forward to reading this report, and then advocating for the prosecution of wrongdoers.

[BrotherIvan]

32. Here's Glenn Greenwald and you won't believe him either

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/31/obama-justice-department-immunity-bush-cia-torturer

Here's Mother Jones, that rag

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/12/wikileaks-cable-obama-quashed-torture-investigation

HuffPo

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/daphne-eviatar/wikileaks-cables-reveal-o_b_791340.html

It's everywhere. This is not a politically motivated stunt to make Obama look bad. His very words and actions show that his administration does not want war criminals prosecuted.

[msanthrope]

33. No....I don't believe Libertarians, and you shouldn't, either. They have too much invested

in the narrative that the Democrats and Rethugs are the same.

As for the cables themselves, The Obama Adminstration was completely correct in objecting to universal jurisdiction of a single judge. Spain still had the option of filing in the US, but declined because no one other than one rogue judge supported the indictment.

Do you really think we should be handing over American citizens to any country who claims universal jurisdiction? I don't. That's why we have courts here, and courts where the crimes took place. As a criminal defense attorney, I will tell you that I find the concept of universal jurisdiction to be incompatible with the 6th amendment.

[BrotherIvan]

36. Ok

I find torture to be incompatible with justice. YMMV.

[Laelth]

39. Agreed, msanthrope. n/t

-Laelth

[sabrina 1]

16. Here's the latest:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025339866

[LanternWaste]

56. Difficult to rationalize that link as anything *but* support for torture.

Difficult to rationalize that link as anything *but* support for torture, though I'm looking forward to the creative excuses implying as much.

[sabrina 1]

60. Well, that was the latest I found at that moment. As you can see, there has been no response.

It is difficult to explain the sudden 'understanding' of torture, something I can't say I have ever seen on DU before.

[NM_Birder]

18. Check out the "I trust President Obama" thread.

It's truly inspiring.

[msanthrope]

19. Actually, it is....you've got a DUer who signed up last month, pushing the tired Jack Bauer scenario

and not a single poster is supporting them.

I mean, in over 200k members, you've found 1 recent sign up who I have to call a Poe on? Thanks for proving my point.

[NM_Birder]

21. You asked. I answered. I'm right and now you're sour about it ?

[msanthrope]

22. Not at all...I'm laughing that you think that's a DUer. nt

[LanternWaste]

58. It's clever how you moved the goalposts on that one...

It's clever how you moved the goalposts on that one...

[msanthrope]

59. Well, I have never been accused of not being clever....nt

[winter is coming]

6. They don't pick 'em for brains. Or hearts. n/t

[frylock]

7. did they explain how it was just folks torturing folks to keep folks safe and free?

[CaliforniaPeggy]

8. Has EVERYONE forgotten that the tortured person will say anything to make the torture stop?

[riqster]

29. This^^^

Been there, endured that, said whatever they told me to say, lived to fight another day.

How can anyone with even a moiety of their marbles believe torture works?

[Blue Owl]

9. Talk about tortured logic...

n/t

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

10. And some still say there's no difference between the D's and R's

Even the worst Democrat is better than this.

[Uncle Joe]

11. They made a dcoumentary about the long path to this Republican discovery.

Thanks for the thread, kpete.

[Jerry442]

24. But in the Republican version...

...when the fire seekers encountered the woman from a more advanced tribe who actually knew how to make fire, they stoned her to death for being a witch.

[LiberalArkie]

12. I liked on of the replies

"Should any American soldier be so base and infamous as to injure any [prisoner]. . . I do most earnestly enjoin you to bring him to such severe and exemplary punishment as the enormity of the crime may require. Should it extend to death itself, it will not be disproportional to its guilt at such a time and in such a cause… for by such conduct they bring shame, disgrace and ruin to themselves and their country.”

- George Washington, charge to the Northern Expeditionary Force, Sept. 14, 1775

[Android3.14]

13. Awful example

Not only are the ellipsis separating huge blocks of texts, but he was writing to Benedict Arnold and he was referring to a force that was seeking allies. He specifically told them NOT to consider the region they were traveling as enemy territory in order to garner the support of Catholics in that region.
The letter is applicable to our support of Iraq a few years back, sort of, but it most certainly is not some reference to a general denunciation of torture, unfortunately.
http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?ammem/mgw:@field(DOCID+@lit(gw030362))

[dembotoz]

17. presents the concept that they are amoral vs immoral. They just do not know any better

they do not ignore the moral compass.
they do not have a moral compass

[TDale313]

26. Seems we're having to explain it to some fellow DUers

Which, to me, is even more surprising.

[Marrah_G]

27. I'm glad they spoke out.

Good for them for speaking out against torture. I may despise them both for a vast number of reasons, but on this topic I agree with them.

[Savannahmann]

28. Torture isn't wrong according to some here.

I mean, it could be used to save lives. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025339866

[Ikonoklast]

34. According to one retread troll. And a "concern" poster who rec'd that garbage.

Check their posts, they are not Democrats, they're both shit-stirrers,.

[PassingFair]

54. Yeah, well I alerted on that troll...

and Democrats allowed the thread to stand 5 to 2

[Laelth]

38. Delicious. k&r for exposure. n/t

-Laelth

[kentuck]

40. It's a natural defense mechanism, I suppose, if...

...you voted for and supported those that tortured other human beings? After all, you do not want to take responsibility for your actions, mainly, your vote. And the fact that those whom you supported tortured other humans. It was a inhumane war crime. Better to see it as a betrayal of your own morality, than try to defend the inhumane actions of people like Dick Cheney.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

43. The REASON Republicans believe torture works is because they know they would crack....

They don't actually BELIEVE in ANYTHING and they ASSUME that's the way everyone is.

Strap one down and I guarantee you they'd betray Reagan to avoid torture.

[tblue37]

46. The reason torture doesn't work is NOT because the victims are

strong enough to not "crack," but because it is certain that they WILL crack, every single one of them. *Anyone* will eventually crack and say whatever they think might make the torture stop. Information gained through torture is worthless because of that simple truth.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

47. Torture is NEVER used to get information. It's used to get false confessions....

The Church knew that in the 15th century.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

50. All sorts of people knew it

I can give a specific example. Henry VIII' wanted to support his trumped-up charge of adultery by Ann Boleyn. Four or five men, including Ann's brother, were tortured to get them to say that they had sexual relations with Ann. It worked very well as a means of getting perjured testimony. If I had you strapped down to a table, give me a small electric generating set, a couple of wires with clamps on the end, and within an hour or so, I will get you to admit to buggering your sister, setting the Reichstag fire, and assassinating Richard Nixon.

There are exactly two ethical systems I can think of under which there is no objection to torture. The first is Nietzsche's master-slave morality, in which the only thing to consider is the benefit to the "master". But do you really want to align yourself morally with the Gestapo?

One could make an argument for torture on utilitarian grounds, claiming that "the greatest good for the greatest number" would allow the degradation of one or a few persons so that the many could benefit. Both Nietzsche and Jeremy Bentham determined the goodness of an action based on the outcome. In both systems, the end justifies the means.

However, any moral code which considers the individual would reject this. Even Joseph Fletcher's situational ethics -- which accepts "greatest good for the greatest number", but which also insists on love for both the whole and the individual -- would be stretched very far to accept torture.

I mentioned Nietzsche, and this quote is apropos regarding torture: In Beyond Good and Evil, he wrote "He who fights too long against dragons becomes a dragon himself; and if you gaze too long into the abyss, the abyss will gaze into you."

[Spitfire of ATJ]

55. America also has a long history of the myth of the ability to beat someone into submission too....

There is a belief by some whites in this country that the other races instinctively accept that the white race is superior.

Especially after you beat them into submission.

There was a decision early on in the Bush Cheney administration that they were gonna hurt some people to teach them what happens when you get uppity against your betters.

Generally, things like that need to be PUBLIC so it's likely the release of those pictures from Abu Ghraib was part of the plan.

[WinkyDink]

52. Torture is used to torment, to release sadistic impulses, to behave cruelly. The rest is the excuse.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

57. As I said, someone in the administraction decided they were gonna hurt these people.

[WinkyDink]

51. Note to all rationalizers: Torture is "wrong" because it is-----wait for it-----TORTURE.

[Enrique]

53. McCain has been pretty strong on torture

I doubt Graham has been, but regardless of their motives, I'm glad to see these two Republicans take the position that torture is wrong.