File this under, Humans Suck - Parents Abandon Down's Baby to Surrogate

[joeybee12]

The Thai surrogate mother of a baby born with Down Syndrome vowed Monday to "never abandon" him after the Australian parents reportedly refused to care for the child, sparking a moral debate and a cascade of donations for the boy's medical care.

Pattaramon Chanbua and seven-month old Gammy have been at the centre of a surrogacy controversy after reports emerged that the Australian couple flew to Thailand and took the boy's healthy twin sister at birth, but rejected the disabled child.

The 21-year-old surrogate said she would raise Gammy, who has been in hospital with a lung infection and heart condition for the last few days a couple of hours drive southeast of Bangkok.

"From all of these unlucky things I am glad that we are together. I love him very much, I will never abandon him," Pattaramon told AFP at Gammy's bedside in Chonburi province.

http://news.yahoo.com/abandoned-babys-surrogate-mother-saint-australia-061119269.html

Guess what, assholes, you made a commitment to bring the kid to term via surrogate...thank God people are helping. And before anyone says she could have aborted, she would have been arrested if she had...the surrogate had no choice, the parents did.

[Nye Bevan]

1. Would you say this woman "sucked" if she was carrying the baby herself and chose to abort it,

upon finding out about the Downs syndrome?

How about a woman who feels that she cannot care for such a baby and gives it up for adoption? Does she suck?

[HERVEPA]

2. But she did neither. She just abandoned the baby. Yes she sucks.

And turning this into an abortion discussion is ludicrous.

[joeybee12]

4. Thank you...

Honestly, what is up with some people...totally changing the topic, totally misreading or reading something that isn't even there.

[MADem]

53. That might not be true.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/04/baby-gammy-conflicting-reports-about-baby-boy-abandoned-in-thailand

[joeglow3]

64. I will wait for more facts, but at this point he looks to be trying cover his ass

He has to assume his name will become public and he will be excoriated. Under what scenario would it make sense that he was not made aware of a twin with down's?

[MADem]

78. I think this couple went to Thailand because no one in Australia would help a convicted sex offender

have kids.

It could be that the clinic owner lied to him about the viability of the child, i.e. the child is at death's door. The surrogacy company is supposedly out of business, but who knows how much clout the clinic owner has/had in arranging the surrogates, checking health, etc.

We just don't know.

This is a crappy situation all round, the ones suffering in earnest are the children produced from this unregulated, wild west enterprise.

[joeybee12]

3. Oh FFS...

Great way to totally throw something in that has absolutely nothing to do with this article...nothing...both parents suck...while I'm pro-choice in ALL circumstances, you appear simply to have an axe to grind,

[Nye Bevan]

5. I see a mother choosing not to raise a Downs Syndrome child

in the only way available to her, and being condemned for making that choice, even though the baby will be raised by a loving parent. Seems inconsistent given that if the surrogate had been willing and able to have an abortion, I don't think anyone here would be saying that the mother sucked.

[joeybee12]

6. Read the article...abortion is against the law, that was not an option for the surrogate...

And those phucking stupid parents should have read up about what the law is before they decided to try and have a baby there...this isn't like some phucking trip to the grocery store where you forget the milk because you didn't write it down...these parents..BOTH the mother and father suck...they knew what they were doing and then they abandoned their responsibility...that's the issue, not choice, and it is ridiculous you are trying to make this about choice.

And you see a mother choosing not to raise it AFTER the child was born...got it...AFTER...so someone else has to.

[Nye Bevan]

7. Do you have an issue with mothers who choose to give a baby up for adoption? (nt)

[joeybee12]

10. My last post...because you have veered off into the ludicrous...

Adoption is not abandonment...

[Nye Bevan]

12. So if the mother had taken the baby from the surrogate and then immediately given it up for adoption

since she did not want to raise a Downs Syndrome child, you would have been just fine with that. But because instead the baby is staying with the surrogate to be raised by her, the mother "sucks". Just seems inconsistent to me.

[d_r]

56. They would suck.

[dsc]

13. this is vastly different

Last edited Mon Aug 4, 2014, 01:17 PM - Edit history (1)

Almost certainly the surrogate was in no financial position to provide the care such a child needs while the Australian parents were. At the very least those parents should have taken the child back to Australia and then found adoptive parents if they decided they couldn't raise the child. While this isn't as bad as say leaving the child in bangladesh it is certainly leaving the child in a position where its ability to be cared for is sketchy at best.

[Nye Bevan]

21. Thailand actually has a pretty good universal health care system (nt)

[jwirr]

29. That is good to hear. It was my concern as you can read in my other post.

[d_r]

57. Is the baby even a Thai citizen?

Both parents are Australian. Australians who suck.

[d_r]

55. They didn't give the baby up for adoption

They paid a poor woman to be a surrogate and left her with the baby, abandoned their own baby, because the baby wasn't what they wanted. They suck. They amazingly suck.

[blueamy66]

61. They suck is right.

I hope karma bites them in the ass.

[KitSileya]

23. In this case, both parents are in the same position as usually only the father is.

In most countries, the man married to the mother is considered the father of the child, and is obligated to help raise it, at the very minimum financially. This is because the main issue is the benefit of the child. These parents signed a contract with the surrogate, and I would argue that places upon them at least the duty to help financially with the child born under this contract.

Of course, this is such a rare occurrence I doubt Australian law covers it, but it is something to remember when politicians are writing laws about surrogacy. The main impetus must always be the welfare of the children, and in the cases of surrogacy, the welfare of the employee. The childless couples must come in third in the list of priorities.

In addition, the man in this couple is the only one actually genetically related to Gammy, so if we are to heap scorn on the couple unequally, the man should have the most of it.

[JustAnotherGen]

31. From what I'm reading

Not in that article - but at another message board I belong to -

Australia has pretty draconian surrogacy laws - and Thailand has severe restrictions on commercial vs. do-me-a-favor.

And the only adult who has a bio connect to that little boy is the dad. As I understand it they purchased an egg from someone else.

Which leads me to wonder what the ethnicity/race of the man's wife is. That's pretty extreme to buy an egg from Thailand - or perhaps they are cheaper there?

US - you can't get into an egg generally for less than $18K.

[MADem]

79. I read that the mother was Asian. Not sure which country, though. nt

[d_r]

54. Two parents - mother and a father

Pay a poor woman to carry a child. Walk off and leave the baby because of Down syndrome. They suck. They completely suck. I am willing to say that they such if they woman they paid to have been a surrogate had an abortion or not. They sucked to demand it. They sucked worse to leave the baby. They suck.

[HERVEPA]

11. Totally standard behavior for the poster.

[joeybee12]

16. Yeah, I'm getting a tatse of it right now...

Ending that particular conversation with him/her...it's pointless.

[JustAnotherGen]

19. I'm in agreement

Fertility options vs abortion/giving up for adoption options I'm sorry - but we come from an entirely different perspective and one has nothing to do with the other.

That said - I'm really trying to wrap my head around what the 'adoptive' mother did.

I'd like to know more about her story.

No one - including myself - in the midst of the horrors we inflict on ourselves in the Fertility Industrial Complex would ever turn their nose up at a living child. Especially because there were twins - and it's still her husband's full child . . .

I just don't understand what motivated her?

One of the women in my support group - she carried their 170K dollar baby to term knowing there were birth defects that would impede life - because of the chance to save another baby's life with organs .

The idea of someone THAT close after that long of a struggle (I highly doubt this couple STARTED at surrogacy) would ever give up a child that is technically theirs . .. is mind blowing to me.


This is the very reason many many couples on the fertility train never opt to go the route of foster to adopt. . . we want our own - that no one can take away.

How/why did she 'throw' away that child?

[kcr]

36. Being pro-choice doesn't mean being okay with abandoning babies

But you win the award for twistiest logic today.

[doxydad]

50. YEP. She sucks.

And...this has nada to do with abortion. She still sucks.

[DefenseLawyer]

8. Who am I to judge?

I'm not volunteering to raise the child.

[joeybee12]

9. You're not going to raise your own child?

Nice.

[DefenseLawyer]

14. If someone thinks he or she can't be a good parent, whatever the reason

even if it is a vain or selfish reason, he or she shouldn't be a parent. I'm not going to sit in judgment of that decision, even if it's not one I would make myself.

[joeybee12]

17. There's a difference between anbadoning and putting a child up for

adoption...read the article...and these parents took one of the children, the non-disabled one....they're filth adn I have absolutely no problem sitting in judgment of them.

[DefenseLawyer]

20. Whatever gets you through the night.

I take a different view.

[joeybee12]

22. Whatever you can rationalize and read into an article that isn't there, go for it..nt

[Nye Bevan]

15. I'm sure there are DUers who have chosen to give babies up for adoption,

hence, they chose "not to raise their own child".

I respect this choice. I certainly would not say "you're not going to raise your own child, nice!" to someone who was choosing to give their baby up for adoption.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

24. after a surrogate pregnancy? dumping the baby on the surrogate mother?

i dont think so.

[Nye Bevan]

25. Joeybee's comment was "you're not going to raise your own child? Nice!"

This applies not just to the situation in the OP but to every baby who is given up for adoption.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

26. he was referring to this particular story, which is really absurd. nt

[Nye Bevan]

30. Is there a huge difference between leaving the child to be raised by the loving surrogate parent,

and giving the child up for adoption, if the mother feels that she cannot raise a Downs Syndrome child?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

33. yes. for one the surrogate mother is deadly poor and in Thailand, which overall is a poor country

these people are wealthy and from a wealthy country (Australia). had they at least carted their unwanted child back, it would be less irresponsible than abandoning to the surrogate.

[joeglow3]

40. Will the Australian couple pay for the costs?

No. They treated the kid like some pet animal that has a disease and will cost them too much. They did not give a shit about dumping the baby on the already poor surrogate, so long as their first world existence was not disrupted.

You are damn right I will judge this couple as the worthless POS's they are. I only wish the article would name them so that they can be shamed the world over.

[d_r]

58. Bingo.

[blueamy66]

62. Cannot raise or doesn't want to?

Big difference.

[Iron Man]

18. I applaud her.

At least the baby is going somewhere where someone will will love and care for it.

[jwirr]

27. Okay, as the mother of a severely disable child with a developmental disability I feel for the young

mother. My child was born at a time when legal abortion was not available and even if it had been my child would not have been visibly disabled until several weeks after birth. I would have no problem with a parent giving such a child up for adoption. I spent 45 years taking care of my child and I can tell you it is not an easy job and it is why I am in poverty today.

What I do have problems with: did this parenting couple in any way make sure that the birth mother would have enough money to take care of this child? Did they take any kind of responsibility? Obviously the child was of their seed or at least of one of them. The birth mother was only carrying the child FOR them - they had responsibilities. I am not saying they should be totally responsible - what I am saying is before abandoning this child in a foreign country they needed to know what kind of services this country offers for children like this. What happens to single mothers in this country? Etc.

I am glad people are helping this family. But this child is going to need life long help. Hopefully everyone understands that.

[JustAnotherGen]

32. Father's sperm

The purchased an egg from another woman.

This scenario is the stuff nightmares are made of <---But that's from my experience at this moment.

I still can't wrap my head around going to that great of a length to have a child and then just abandoning it with a woman who is not even biologically related to the child in a third world country.

WTF is wrong with the father in this scenario? How could he do that?

[jwirr]

34. I agree. At the least they should have made sure the child was going to be secure. Adoption of a

child with a disability is not easy to come by but it was an option. I to find it hard to understand if we are being told the whole story.

[HERVEPA]

35. Thailand is not a third-world country by any means.

[JustAnotherGen]

37. Step into the infertility industrial complex

It is from a legal standpoint in the 'infertility zone' - and it's why many people opt not to go that route.

I have two threads up there (eta - it's a support group for women trying to conceive with A.R.T.) -and right now it's looking like the 'third world' perspective is what is in play. Three women who are vocal (1 in UK and 2 in the US) are stating it's the downside of being Thai -

Generally Thai women in our countries (US and UK) don't sell their eggs - cultural. So was going to Thailand a way to get her physical match? And if Thailand is so restrictive on surrogacy - did the egg donor even go through the genetic testing that those in the Western world are required to go through?

[d_r]

59. How could he do that?

They are horrible people.

[JustAnotherGen]

69. Reading some of the links posted by MA Dem below . ..

I think there's more to this story . . . And if they didn't know - about this child - and there was no core genetic testing of the egg donor or the psych profile of the surrogate - no laws will be needed. The baby game is one of referrals - there will be no referrals to Thailand.

[loyalsister]

28. This LTE highlights those attitudes perfectly

Anyone whose knee jerk reaction is to justify devaluing children to the degree that they abandon or abuse them should consider this question and why a "no" answer is as disgusting as the OP points out.

"If those children were typically developing, would we even be defending the parents?"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/wheres-the-empathy-for-autistic-children/2014/08/01/882ec816-171d-11e4-88f7-96ed767bb747_story.html

[d_r]

60. YES.

The baby was a throw a way to these people.

[abelenkpe]

38. The parents asked her to abort

When the genetic tests revealed Down syndrome. What was irresponsible was not confirming beforehand that the surrogate mother would or even could stop the pregnancy should genetic tests reveal any problems with the developing babies.

[joeglow3]

41. So, because the POS's in Australia were "irresponsible", what should happen?

I pray they are named so the entire world can know the pieces of shit they are.

[abelenkpe]

43. If this was not a surrogate birth

And the wife had been able to carry her own baby they would have aborted the disabled unhealthy child and kept the healthy baby. Couples make similar, difficult decisions everyday in the west. There have been other articles on this story which make it clear that the surrogate mother made the decision to continue the pregnancy against the wishes of the couple. So it is an unusual situation that will have to be sorted out by the courts.

[joeglow3]

44. If I got a woman pregnant, and she chose to keep the baby, I would be responsible

For the cost of the child. Or, do you think the father can avoid all responsibility if he just says he wanted her to get an abortion?

[abelenkpe]

46. Up to the courts

As this situation crosses international borders and involves surrogacy, religion and a business transaction. A story sure to outrage. The media must love it.

She entered into a deal with the couple to carry their baby. They didn't want the one who genetic tests revealed to have down syndrome and other health problems. She broke the deal, citing her religious beliefs and laws in her country and decided to keep the child. Who knows how the courts will rule? Have you ever had to deal with an international custody case? They are seriously f'd up. I have a good friend who is going through that right now between Italy and the US. It's dragged on for over five years, cost hundreds of thousands for both parties, and uprooted a young kid three times already. You apparently have some strong feelings about this situation as do many others but it's not up the media or internet to decide. And it is not the same simple cut and dry situation you described at all. It's much more complicated.

[joeglow3]

48. I didn't ask about the law

Last edited Tue Aug 5, 2014, 12:03 PM - Edit history (1)

I asked what YOU thought the answer should be, from an ethical standpoint.

[CBGLuthier]

39. The Australian parents say they never knew there was another child.

Which to me, for the moment, makes it a case of he said, she said.
But let the internet's mighty judgement (facts not needed) weigh down on the dastardly duo. Everybody pick a side and have at them. The 24 hour hate is behind schedule today and we must not delay.

[pipi_k]

42. Once again, another

"news" article written with only one POV in mind.


Regarding the issue of "abandonment"...I didn't see that word used except by the surrogate, who said she would never abandon the baby. That doesn't mean the actual parents abandoned the baby.

Does anyone here screeching about "ABANDONMENT! ABANDONMENT!" know for a fact what discussions might have taken place?

Can anyone say for sure that the bio parents didn't say to the surrogate, "Look, we can't care for the other baby and we're thinking of giving him up for adoption, would you like the chance to take him?"

Would giving him up for adoption also be "abandonment"?

So maybe...nobody knows for sure because the article is so biased in favor of the surrogate mom...the bio parents gave her the OPTION to take him, and she accepted.

And because the story is written in a biased fashion, maybe the surrogate didn't really use the words, "I will never abandon him". Maybe there was an error in translation. Maybe what she really said was, "I will never give him up".


I wasn't there, and neither was anyone else here. Nobody knows for sure what transpired and what was said. Yet the outrage bubbles forth once more as people see what they want to see in an article that is clearly one-sided.

sigh...

[joeglow3]

45. If I got a woman pregnant and I wanted her to have an abortion

Does that absolve me of all financial responsibility if she decides to keep it?

[joeglow3]

49. First post in the thread is to insult someone

Is it the refusal to answer the question, or the burning desire for attention?

[Finagled]

71. I'm fairly certain I am not the one who has a burning desire for attention.

You might want to get that checked with a doctor if the burning persists.

[joeglow3]

72. Keep up the screams for attention.

I am pretty sure THAT is it.

[Cali_Democrat]

51. It just got stranger: Australia investigates father over allegations he's a child sex offender

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-28654831

[MADem]

66. Stranger still--it's turned into a he said/she said re: the surrogacy agency

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/04/baby-gammy-conflicting-reports-about-baby-boy-abandoned-in-thailand

I think the surface has barely been scratched on this story.

[JustAnotherGen]

67. Hmmm . . . maybe not

If he is being investigated as a sex offender (his background) it makes sense why they couldn't follow adoption, foster to adopt, and potentially even surrogacy in Australia.

And then there's this -

Both the Australian government and Thai health authorities are now looking into the case and the larger issue of commercial surrogacy in Thailand, which is mostly unregulated.

I'm going to go ahead and guess that if it is not regulated - then there no ethics. The most basic - genetic testing and suitability as well as psychological profiles of the egg donor and the surrogate as well as the parents in this situation. A case of no ethics (forgive me for dehumanizing her but I can't remember her name) is the "Octomom" in California - and that wasn't even surrogacy.

[LisaL]

74. Yes.

"Court documents have revealed the Western Australian father at the centre of an international surrogacy controversy has been convicted of more than 20 child sex offences."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-06/baby-gammys-father-convicted-on-more-than-20-child-sex-charges/5653502

[MADem]

52. File it Under There ARE GOOD PEOPLE in the world. A bunch of people stepped up when they heard

this.

TWO people were assholes (MAYBE--see below), but MANY people were good hearted.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/04/baby-gammy-conflicting-reports-about-baby-boy-abandoned-in-thailand
Baby Gammy: conflicting reports about baby boy 'abandoned' in Thailand
Surrogate mother says twin boy was abandoned by Australian parents but alleged father says he did not know of boy

...The Australian couple have not been named but have reportedly denied leaving Gammy in Thailand. Channel Nine and ABC both say they have spoken with them. More than $200,000 has been raised for Gammy through a viral online campaign but the people behind it have refused to reveal their identity because of their “position of work”.

Gammy’s alleged Australian father told the ABC the clinic’s doctor only told them about a girl and he had been told the surrogacy agency no longer existed. The couple told Channel 9 they had a daughter of similar age to Gammy, born through surrogacy, but she did not have a twin. They described their experience with the surrogacy agency as “traumatising”....

There just may be more to this story than meets the eye. A good deal of money has been raised for the child's care, and it looks like that money will go into a trust fund--not delivered wholesale to the mother.

[dilby]

63. Do you really believe potential parents had no idea she was having twins?

That not once they asked her to go to the doctor to have an ultrasound to see the status of their baby she was carrying? She knew she was having twins, she knew one had down's syndrome and I am sure she did not keep it a secret from the couple. I hope she get's a million dollars so she can live comfortably with her child, it's disgusting how rich people go to poor countries and think they can use the people there because they are poor.

[MADem]

65. Do you really believe The Guardian would cast doubt on the story without any good reason?

I think you need to go read that article I provided again (assuming you read more than the clip the first time round) . Apparently there are major problems with that "surrogacy agency."

Gammy’s alleged Australian father told the ABC the clinic’s doctor only told them about a girl and he had been told the surrogacy agency no longer existed. The couple told Channel 9 they had a daughter of similar age to Gammy, born through surrogacy, but she did not have a twin. They described their experience with the surrogacy agency as “traumatising”.

Chanbua said she was going to report the surrogacy agency to police on Monday but had so far not made contact with police, saying she was seeking further legal advice.

Here's my take--I rather doubt ABC in Australia, or the Guardian, both well-known news outlets, would cast doubt on the early reports without good reason. It was a cracking good soap opera as it stood; now we see the money that has been raised NOT being given to the biological mother, but put in a trust for the child, and we see that there are some questions about the original story.

I also don't think, unless these Australian parents spoke Thai, that they had a good handle on everything that was going on during the process. We don't know what they were told, if they were provided with a translator, and we do not know if the "clinic doctor" running the show and thinking about his bottom line, or the "surrogacy agency," concerned about bad publicity from "defective" surrogates, tried to gerrymander events, telling the surrogate mother one thing, and the adoptive parents something else entirely.

I am willing to wait to hear the rest of the story--why aren't you?

I don't understand why you can't simply take this from whence it comes...why be invested in an outcome that is not yet known?

[JustAnotherGen]

68. One point MADem

Because you are making some really good ones -

"defective" surrogates

Defective EGG Donor.

We have to keep in play -

Biological Father's Sperm
Mother - Married to Father
Egg Donor
Surrogate (Uterus Donor)

Another thought - and I think I posted about genetic testing upthread - generally this is done par and parcel before sperm meets egg in the petri dish. I'd love to know if both the sperm and the egg donors were tested for full genetic review. If it wasn't (the egg donor's) then it would make sense why the egg supplier agency/clinic and surrogacy clinic have tiptoed away. It's going to look really bad for them that they skipped that step.

Keep in mind when you go in for A.R.T. - these are businesses first. Businesses that get more customers based on results. Their goal is the quickest way to a healthy baby. Because then you go online or tell people face to face (refer) and then they get more business. They thrive on heart break and desperation.

This is a heart break situation if ever there was one.

[MADem]

70. I don't think any screening was done at all--this was likely a "fly by night/no rules" operation.

They clearly didn't vet the parents for suitability--I think the only criterion was "ability to pay." From a parental perspective, the goal was "Give us a good price/no questions asked."

From what little I've read, the adoptive mother just might well be a mail order bride. The adoptive father is a late middle aged male with a criminal history that possibly includes interfering with young children.

It's starting to look like there are no winners in this equation--everyone is a loser, either motivated by greed, or victimized by circumstances. The biggest losers? The poor kids created as a consequence of this unregulated/for profit enterprise.

[LisaL]

73. They admitted they knew about the baby.

"After initially denying they knew about baby Gammy, a friend of the couple issued a statement to a local Australian newspaper saying the pair only left Gammy because they were told he was likely to die."

http://pix11.com/2014/08/06/couple-defends-decision-to-leave-downs-baby-with-surrogate/

[MADem]

75. I still file this under "There are good people in the world."

Thai surrogacy is a wild west process. The father has convictions for messing with young children, he's married to what might be a mail order bride, the surrogacy agency/clinic doctor did no vetting, the woman with the host uterus was engaged in renting out her gestational skills for purely economic reasons--the whole situation is a mess. And in another report I read that the parents believed the child did die, so nothing is clear here.

Your cite is a second party report from "a friend of the couple." It doesn't really matter, though--what this story highlights is that Thailand has no regulations for this kind of thing.

Every time you turn around, there's a new report out. The initial story didn't tell the half of it.

[WinkyDink]

76. There is no "alleged." Intended "father" is a CONVICTED child molestor. Is THIS why he wanted only

the female child of the surrogate?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/05/gammy-father-child-abuse-convictions-investigation

[stone space]

77. I don't know the law, but I sure hope that...

...they are on the hook for child support.