The Decline of Red Lobster Is the Decline of the Middle Class

[brooklynite]

Slate:

The spinoff of Darden's longtime flagship Red Lobster was officially completed this week, sending the beleaguered chain off into the hands of Golden Gate Capital. Shortly after, Darden announced a second shakeup: Clarence Otis, its chief executive of nearly 10 years, would step down from his post. Unfortunately for Darden, it might take a lot more than dropping Red Lobster and Otis to jumpstart its lagging business, which has lost 12 percent of its value since January. That's because Red Lobster's decline isn't so much about seafood as the dying casual-dining industry and still-struggling middle class.

Casual-dining chains like Red Lobster and another Darden property, Olive Garden, were all the rage in the 1990s, but have faced decreasing traffic in nine out of the past 13 years. After the recession, consumers spent less money in general, so restaurants offered more promotions and value items. But this didn't bring back the middle class. Instead, as Darden noted when it first announced the Red Lobster spinoff late last year, the chain's customers were increasingly from lower-income groups. Higher-end consumers, meanwhile, moved on to more upscale dining experiences. Places like Red Lobster and Olive Garden got lost somewhere in the middle.

To make matters worse for casual dining, so-called fast-casual dining is red-hot. Chipotle, Panera, and Five Guys offer cheaper and quicker but still high-quality dining experiences. Fast-casual is the fastest-growing segment in the restaurant industry, with an 11 percent increase in sales in 2013. Restaurants like Chipotle are great for the middle class, whether it's the office worker who needs a quick lunch or the college student picking up dinner. And strong customer loyalty has kept people going there even amid substantial price increases.

Red Lobster's new CEO, Kim Lopdrup, told the Associated Press this week that he thinks the chain can win back customers. "At the end of the day, people are not going to go to a Chipotle for their anniversary or their birthday," he said. But seeing as the median household today is poorer than it was in 1984, Chipotle might be looking like a pretty sensible option.

Could it possibly have something to do with crappy food? I've been to plenty of inexpensive Italian restaurant that do a far better job than anything I've seen at a place like Olice Garden.

[FSogol]

1. Crappy food and crappy politics is the reason for Darden's decline.

Look at the chains that are growing exponentially by having fresh ingredients and paying better wages (5 Guys, Chipotle, Potbellys, etc.)

[randr]

16. Bingo

Last time I went to Red Lobster, many years ago, I got my salt intake for the rest of my life.
The hippies were right again, you are what you eat.

[dionysus]

87. 5 guys make a helluva burger, don't they? i've heard chipoltes is good but there's a authentic

family run place here I prefer for my Mexican urges.

[notadmblnd]

128. I don't know about 5 guys. They opened one here about a year ago. It's already gone

with a massage parlor chain taking it's place. I ate there once. I didn't see anything special about it. Burgers were sloppy greasy, fries limp and soggy. All over priced. 5 guys is not being missed in my community.

[dionysus]

129. hmmm. not the case here... the burger were well done, yet not dry, fries, hit or miss. i wonder what

the discrepancy is? you've got either rave reviews or shit reviews.

poor employees? different ingredients?

[notadmblnd]

131. We have a decent labor pool in my community, so only thing

I could think is franchise owner?

[dionysus]

134. could be.. we have a guy in the thread whose bun disintegrated in his hand, while me and others

never had a problem... strange indeed... franchise owner cutting corners with ingredients would be my bet.

we have 3 or 4 of them in town and they're always packed...

[ohnoyoudidnt]

162. it sounds like a lack of consistency among franchises

The Five Guys near me is okay. I think
their buns are too small gor their burgers, though. But they sure beat Mcdonalds or Burger King if you are short on time and want a burger fast.

[dionysus]

168. i think you're onto something. 5 guys here, the bun fits the burger... we have two other small local

chains who are notorious for the burgers being bigger than the buns, but that's because they roll them out on a glass plate;


it's done intentionally in this case.

of course here we're crazy and have "hot sauce" for burgers and dogs, which is nothing like red hot or tobasco, isn't hot, and is actually a thick meat sauce...

but lack of consistency, I think you hit it.

on top of this dog is "hot sauce";

[MurrayDelph]

189. I'm with you

I've been to two different 5Guys in different states, and didn't get a good burger in either.

If I'm going to get a chain burger, I like Smashburger. Unfortunately for me, the nearest one is 500 miles away.

[notadmblnd]

190. The best burgers that I've ever had have come from bowling alleys and bars

But the very best burger I ever ate was from Niesner Brothers. It was a dime store in downtown Pontiac in the 70's. I worked at the bank next door and on Saturdays I would order a cheese burger with onions lettuce and mayo. To this day, I haven't found a burger better that those.

[ohnoyoudidnt]

200. Same here.

One was in a bar in a not so great part of Orlando and and the other in a small Irish pub in Miami. I think they make their own grinds out of fresh cuts daily and have a good bakery make excellent buns. I can easily make a better burger than any chain restaurant myself. Some small independent places really know what they are doing. Something happens at the chain/franchise level and they cut costs and sacrifice quality to try and make more profit. Sometimes it works, sometimes it ends badly.

[TheNutcracker]

122. Red Lobster microwaves a lot of it's fish!

What a terrible thing to do, when customers show up to eat!

[BlueStreak]

135. And crappy restaurant management

My father was accustomed to frequenting the R.L. I tried to gently steer him to other places that were more worker friendly, but I've had to go there 3 times in the past year. All three times, it was the same deal. We were the only customers in the lobby (or maybe one other small group). There were employees wandering around, but nobody greeted us for over 5 minutes. And when they did, they acted as if they were really sorry we came in. There were plenty of tables open, but they didn't think they could find one.

Then once we got seated, there was usually a long delay before anybody came to the table to even acknowledge us. And then of course, it all ends up with crappy food.

I understand why the Darden restaurants are going under. But is it really happening that way in the whole sector? There's a Macaroni's Grill and an Abuelo's nearby that have a good menu and good service, but they often aren't very busy. OTOH, there are a bunch of locally owned "mini-chains" (one local group that runs a half dozen restaurants) that seem to do great business all the time.

And their prices are higher than any of the Darden restaurants. I think it is an issue that the huge corporations, whether it be Yum, Darden, or Wal*Mart just kill the soul. When you deal with local ownership, you have pride that shows up on the face of every employee. People need to stop patronizing these huge lifeless systems. Put them out of business and we will all be better off. Local is always better.

[1StrongBlackMan]

142. Fresh ingredients and paying better wages ...

has little to do with the success of the chains you mention (5 Guys, Chipotle, Potbellys, etc.) ... it has far more to do with the MUCH lower overhead.

And frankly, "crappy food" is a matter of taste (get it?) ... I have eaten good meals in both RL and OG, and I have taken back meals from % Guys and Chipotle.

Further, "crappy politics" might affect 1 out 10,000 customers. (Disclaimer: I have not polled 10,000 consumers to verify the preceding numbers, nor have I googled; but, anecdotally, while I am adamant about NOT patronizing some businesses, the vast majority of people that I might dine with look at me funny when I tell them why.)

[Logical]

2. Where is the typical "red lobster is low grade dog food" comments? nt

[Iggo]

6. How dare you?

That's high grade dog food!

[LordGlenconner]

18. The food snobs are out in force down thread

[CatWoman]

36. why does one have to be a "food snob" just because he or she hates crappy, overpriced

food?

[LondonReign2]

38. +1

Disliking bad food makes one a snob??

[lunasun]

55. Eating healthy is so hateful

[LordGlenconner]

39. You can hate whatever you want

But for a lot of people going out to Olive Garden or Red Lobster is a "big deal", something they can afford to do maybe a few times a year. The food snobs seem to look down their noses at those people who "just don't know any better". It's patronizing and frankly very snobby.

That's the vibe that permeates this thread and other discussions about food on this board. If you're not eating organic, or mom and pop, or what have you, you are a dullard or simpleton.

[derby378]

42. The last sit-down dining experience my wife and I had was at a Red Lobster

It was a belated anniversary celebration, as Ginny wasn't feeling up to it on our anniversary proper. So we waited a day or two and went out there, had some lobster and crab stuffed mushrooms (her favorite), and some nice entrees. Ginny made me laugh at my own inconsistencies, and it turned out to be a lovely night.

She died a little more than a month afterwards. Red Lobster, therefore, will hold a special place in my heart for that reason alone.

Plus, their coleslaw is second to none, and I repeat none. They better not mess with the recipe.

[LordGlenconner]

44. That's a nice story

Thanks for sharing. I don't think anyone is claiming it's fine dining, but your experiences show that one can go to a Red Lobster or Olive Garden and consider it time well spent. I also think a lot of people who disparage these places secretly go to them on their own but don't talk about it "because of what people might think".

[derby378]

49. Thank you - and I remember dining at Olive Garden when they still served cannoli for desert

The servers told me they hated to see cannoli removed from the menu, but their patrons simply wanted desserts that were sweeter. I can still find a decent cannoli in Dallas if I need to.

[vankuria]

74. Thank-you for sharing

your sweet story...Red Lobster was my late mom's favorite. I used to take her there to lunch just about every Saturday and the service was always great and my Mom absolutely loved the food. When my mom could no longer live on her own and had to go to a nursing home, they had monthly outings to restaurants and Red Lobster was always everyone's favorite place to go. I'd join my mom on those outings and staff would go out of their way to accommodate such a large group of seniors with wheelchairs, walkers, etc., and showed respect and patience for seniors having difficulty deciding what to order, reading the menu, etc.

It may not be everyone's cup of tea, but for a lot of folks Red Lobster provides decent food at affordable prices and even has a coupon in the Sunday paper.

I have sweet memories of taking my mom there and like derby378, it holds a special place in my heart.

[blueamy66]

80. I'm with ya.

Red Lobster holds a special place in my heart as well.

My Dad would take all of us for dinner once a week there. He'd have his grandson on his lap, feeding him crab and lobster and butter....Dad got one bite, Will got 10.....

My Dad is gone and my nephew is 16.

[dionysus]

89. what a heartwarming story, thank you for sharing. i wish you the best. i lost my mom, and dad and i

have feelings for a low priced steakhouse\buffet called Bonanza in a similar way. It's the last place the three of us ate together. every time I visit home we make a point to go there and remember happier times. we still get a chuckle of how she always ate the same thing, and always managed to get salt over the entire table...

[derby378]

91. Bonanza is one of the first restaurants I remember eating at as a child

There was a Bonanza steakhouse just a brisk walk away from our house. They always kept the lights fairly low inside, and I remember they had good food. Then all the Bonanzas started disappearing one by one, but I think the chain is attempting a comeback.

[dionysus]

94. the one in my old home town is a fixture... i don't think it will ever go anywhere. twice i year i

can go home and reminisce with my dad, eat myself silly, and then pound down unlimited ice cream on top of that... (then go home and lapse into a food coma for several hours)

mom always got the sirloin tips, and I shake a little salt on the table for respect, sort of like how gangsters pour a 40 on the ground for their fallen homies...

she couldn't eat anywhere without spraying salt... yet always made fun of dad for his salt shaking technique... memories.

[derby378]

97. Oh, my - that DOES sound good

We have a BBQ chain in Dallas called Dickey's that does pretty much the same thing, right down to the ice cream.

On a similar note, it's hard to find a Pizza Hut in Dallas where you and your friends can go in, sit down, and eat your meal inside - all of our Pizza Huts have become takeaway kiosks. I was pleasantly surprised to find an old-school Pizza Hut while passing through Muskogee, OK during my travels, and my parents tell me there's another one in Mineola, TX.

[dionysus]

101. our pizza hut back home is still sit down, but it's not as good as it used to be... i used to love

it but it's... just not as good anymore. I could just eat the cheesy breadsticks, but at some point the quality turned to crap... they even stopped putting cheese on the breadsticks!

for pizza the go-to joint is actually a sub shop called "The House of Roast Beef", run by this greek guy, and the pizza is just superb... I dunno what they put in it... but it's got it

[dionysus]

169. in addendum... you get an entree and the salad bar also has fried chicken, as well as salad, pudding

and other stuff... you can eat yourself blind there. I don't endorse overeating as a habit, but for those two days a year... oh boy it's on!

and next to the ice cream machine is crumbled up oreos, sprinkles, and chocolate and butterscotch syrup! boom!

[1StrongBlackMan]

143. Heart warming rememberance ...

in a thread of hate. Thanks.

My last experience at RL, doesn't compare to yours ... by a long shot; but was none-the-less, heartwarming.

Our Server was Developmental Disabled. Her enthusiasm and sense of humor, more than made up for her deficits ... in fact, even with her deficits, she was a far better Server than some "fully capable" Servers that I have had.

Mrs. 1SBM and I tipped her well (and she refused to accept anything over the 15%, she caught up to us in the parking lot) ... We commented to, and commended, the Manager about the company's doing a wonderful, right thing ... and Mrs. 1SBM called the a$$holes in the next table, a$$holes for giving the Server a hard time.

[Spacemom]

150. Thank you for sharing your story

Red Lobster also holds a special place for me, even though I haven't been in 20 years.

We didn't have a lot of money, so it was a very rare treat. I remember feeling so grown up drinking my "Shirley Temple" while mom and dad had their drinks.

The ones I see now just look run down and kind of sad.

[Enthusiast]

199. Sorry about the loss of your Ginny.

[whathehell]

105. I agree with you, and, by the way,

I've eaten at 5 star restaurants AND Olive Garden and I've enjoyed

all of them.

[alarimer]

111. But there are much better places for the same money

Red Lobster and Olive Garden are not a bargain. I've been in local places all over that are cheaper and better.

People go there because it's familiar and they are afraid of trying new things. That's it.

[blueamy66]

112. Or they have special memories and wish to continue traditions.

Afraid of trying new things? You are sadly mistaken.

Not alot of seafood joints in AZ...that are family friendly and in the East Valley.

[Tom Ripley]

175. I wanted to smack writer Joe Queenan for taking that attitude in the piece he wrote about the place

Red Lobster

[Logical]

68. Lol, you made it! I love this place! nt

[CatWoman]

70. .....

[onecent]

202. Food snobs??? The salads at Red Lobster have brown edges,

they almost give you enough watered down dressing. I have always said Red Lobster is the only fish restaurant you can go to that you leave "hungry for fish". yuk

[Nuclear Unicorn]

22. I don't go to RL as I'm not big on cooked seafood.

But that's just me and, I think more importantly, I recognize that it's just me.

For some people it's a treat and it's a treat they enjoy. I'm no fan of those who look down their noses and sniff their disapproval so they can feel superior by crapping all over somebody else's good time. OK, great; they can afford better quality (read: more expensive) fare. Good for them. They should be grateful for what they got instead of acting so snobbish.

[Iron Man]

32. I'd rather eat the low-grade dog food.

[snooper2]

83. you are IRON MAN! Lets put you to the TEST!

You go for four days without food-

We put two plates in front of you-


Cheapest dog food we can find from the Dollar Store-
vs
One steamy hot lobster tail from Red Lobster-


You decide IRON MAN! YOU DECIDE-

I'll start taking bets when you agree!

[Iron Man]

125. Woah.

Some people are getting personally offended if others knock the crappy food at Red Lobster.

What's the deal?

[blueamy66]

132. Because maybe some people like the food at Red Lobster.

Go eat your dog food....

[Iron Man]

144. And some people don't like it.

[blueamy66]

152. You said you preferred dog food.

That's messed up.

[Iron Man]

161. Figure of speech.

[snooper2]

204. no figure of speech, you are IRON MAN! You must do the challenge!

IRON MAN never backs down!


Do you accept!


IRON MAN!

[Eleanors38]

163. I quit dogfood. Makes me fart.

[NightWatcher]

3. Maybe people are finding better food out there

We have Red Lobsters here in town, but we also have actual seafood restaurants that are tons better. It costs $60 or more for a couple to go to these chain places when they could go somewhere a lot better for the same or less.
$15 for frozen Vietnamese imported shrimp over pasta. $2-3 for a glass of tea or soda. $6 for a beer or glass of wine...I can do a lot better for a lot less.

Maybe people are tired of 'mall food'. I sure as hell am.

[exboyfil]

60. There are places where Red Lobster is it

for restaurant seafood. I live in such a place. No doubt the quality has declined over time, and it has priced itself to being a once every other year experience.

[laundry_queen]

88. I live in a place like that

there are nicer restaurants here where you could get seafood if you are prepared to spend big bucks, but most of us cannot afford to spend several hundred dollars on a night out. That said, I can't even afford Red Lobster for the most part but I have gone twice in the last 4 years (deals, coupons and a special occasion). The quality has gone downhill in a BIG way, they changed their beloved biscuits here and they now taste like shit. Yet, our Red Lobster here always has a long wait to be seated - upwards of 2 hours sometimes.

[MADem]

96. You like those biscuits? Make them at home!!!!

http://www.food.com/recipe/red-lobster-cheddar-bay-biscuits-89684

Pretty close!

[Algernon Moncrieff]

100. They sell Red Lobster branded mix at Sam's Club

..and I think the mix is essentially Bisquick. The real trick is duplicating the spices in the garlic butter.

[MADem]

180. We make 'em every once in a blue moon when we're having a craving.

We use pretty much the recipe I linked to, and go heavy on the cheese, and we buy top-shelf cheese, too. They're really little hot, tasty heart attacks, but every now and again, ya gotta just go for it!

[laundry_queen]

102. Oh yeah, I have!

I've had the clone recipe since the late 90's It's a family favorite and tastes miles better than RL's current version of biscuits.

[MADem]

181. Hot outta the oven...mmmm good! nt

[Warpy]

76. I never could eat that stuff, it's all oversalted

and I'm a much better cook than they are.

I prefer hole in the wall, family owned restaurants. It's where you find the best food (and the worst) in this country. I'm always taking out of towners to a Vietnamese restaurant and car inspection station (they remodeled a gas station) for some of the best food in town. I alternate with the Pueblo restaurant for lunch and a hole in the wall New Mexican restaurant.

Only two things will compel me out of the house to eat restaurant food: they have to outcook me or it has to be in the 100s and too damned hot to cook anything.

But yes, mall food is horrible. Hotel food is a bit better, less salty, but still falls into bland sameness after a while.

However, yes, the loss of those upper midrange places is due to the loss of a middle class who could afford them a couple of times a month. Their clientele is now working class, stuck with real prole food like delivery pizza.

[MANative]

4. And as a native of one of the world's largest fishing ports...

I can tell you that what they serve at Red Lobster barely resembles passable seafood, never mind "good." Had occasion to go there once for a business dinner arranged by a client, and have never repeated that mistake! I suppose that people who've never had great, fresh seafood right off the boat might find it acceptable, but to my snobby seafood palate, it's just garbage.

[LordGlenconner]

40. This may surprise you

But most people don't live in fishing villages.

[MANative]

57. No, it doesn't at all, of course. I know how fortunate I was to eat seafood that was...

caught just hours before it made it to my table. My brother working in a fish-processing plant when we were teens/young adults meant we could get the best of the best. When my land-locked friends come to visit and get a taste of the good stuff, they are absolutely stunned at the enormous difference. I fully acknowledged that I'm a big-time seafood snob.

[dionysus]

99. when i was a little kid... our neighbor worked for the highway in some kind of capacity. a large

truck had overturned on the thruway.. spilling a humungous quantity of live lobster. because of a rule or law that says once the product has hit the road, it can no longer can be sold, said neighbor proceeded to practically fill the flatbed of his small pickup with lobster, and went around the whole neighborhood handing out live lobsters, to everyone's delight.

I was little, but I remember the smell as my dad cooked lobster all night long; I think he must have lived off of lobster for a week. unfortunately, I was too little and a picky eater, so I wasn't able to appreciate the awesomeness of the event until my palate had evolved...

[MANative]

106. I remember my grandfather telling me stories about how lobster used to be...

considered "poor folks'" food. It was so cheap when he was a youngster that they'd have it several times a week. That was a long time ago - he was born in 1904 - but he loved lobster all his life. When he was in the hospital just prior to his passing, he'd ask my mom to bring him lobster rolls instead of the food served by the cafeteria. Turned out to be his final meal, and my mom always talks about the huge smile on his face as he polished off every last morsel.

Seafood will always be my favorite cuisine, but I fear for its sustainability, and know for certain how expensive it's become. Have to limit to two or three meals a month, at best.

[dionysus]

113. my dad comes from "Down East" Maine... lobster was so readily available it was often used as

fertilizer for home gardens at the time... grandpa ran a lobster boat before becoming a captain in the merchant marines during WW2 (he said at times during the night, sailing around south America, I think, you didn't need to plot a course, you could navigate by the light of burning and sinking ships), and ate so much lobster, eventually he grew sick of it.

I wish I had the opportunity to eat so much lobster that I became sick of it
I usually bring back a few in the cooler twice a year when I return from Maine back to NY... still $4-5\lb right at the tank at Shaw's (yeah I could go down to the coast and maybe save a few bucks but I'm too lazy).

If I'm desperate, they sell for $10lb out of the tank in the grocery store here....

for some reason, I'd rather eat lobster prepared by me than by a restaurant, even at home; I usually go for some combo of haddock and scallops and clams when I eat out back in ME.

[MANative]

116. I learned to cook seafood from the time I was a tween and...

I'm usually disappointed when I order it in any restaurant, although the specialty places from the south coast and Cape Cod in MA are a better bet than most. If I do say so myself, I'm a pretty darned good cook. Haddock is my favorite white fish for baking and broiling, but I use hake for deep frying. It's about half-way between haddock and cod on the "sweetness" scale, but really hardy. Stands up to the high temps beautifully. A good seared scallop will always make me smile. I remember the New Bedford "Scallop Festivals" of the 60's, 70's and 80's. Gods, they were incredible. Fried whole-belly clams and home-made clam chowder are big favorites, too. Heading home in a couple of weeks to visit family, and you can bet that I'll be cooking and eating seafood nearly every day!

When I've been lucky enough to find inexpensive lobster around here, I've been steaming it with a little bit of chicken broth added to the water when I can't find seafood stock. Makes larger lobsters more tender and sweet, I think. Now I'm seriously craving seafood. Yikes!!

[dionysus]

127. i can do a pretty decent chowder, lobster is easy, and i am proficient in pan searing cuts of fish

like haddock or salmon...

more active at it in the winter, too hot in the summer and not enough time.

have you ever made a fish pie? if done right, holey moley amazing (it'll have haddock, cod, prawns, you can add scallops if you want, potato, and some assorted veg, with a white sauce, baked in pie crusts. basically you're baking a heavy chowder), but non seafood eaters will recoil in terror from the pleasant aroma... in fact, I got fish banned from the office by reheating leftovers...

[MANative]

141. I've done a version with salmon, shrimp and scallops...

that's pretty darned tasty. I use potato, sauteed onion, and peas for the veggies. White or dill sauce, for sure. I've tried it with a mild cheese sauce, too, but I don't like that as well. I agree that it's, uh, fragrant! I'm lucky that everyone in my circle of family and friends loves seafood as much as I do. I rarely seem to have the time to make my own pie crusts these days, but they're pretty good when I do. (My grandmother made awesome pies, and she insisted that I learn to make her crust - never been sorry for that effort, although mine are never quite as good as hers were!) The Pillsbury ones work in a pinch, though.

Since I usually work from my home office, I've got nobody to complain about any odd odors from leftovers at lunch!

[dionysus]

155. i'm home office now too. tried making crusts a few times.. got too bored to perfect the technique...

they were passable for use in the end, but the dough stuck to my hands and it was a mess. I'm either not cutting in the butter or getting the cold water part right.. I just use store bought.. too lazy

[Tsiyu]

173. Easiest pie crust ever - 4 ingredients mixed in pie pan

Found this recipe when I was out of butter:


take 1 1/2 cup of all purp flour and add 1/2 tsp salt.

Mix and pour in pie pan ( no grease required )

Take 1/2 cup oil and add 3 tblsp milk to it, stir til all mixed

pour oil/ milk on flour and mix till it looks doughy - right there in the pie pan. Then just use your fingers to spread it in the pie tin ( it's really easy )

Haven't tried it for a top crust ( guess you would have to mix it in another bowl ) so I don't know how well it rolls, but this is the most stable, versatile, flaky crust I've ever made. You can blind bake or bake raw with filling and it comes out great every time. So far have made apple crumb pie, brownie pie and quiche and they have all been delicious and slices don't fall apart.

Okay, cooking and baking is over there. ------>

I know.

[dionysus]

174. copied and pasted to .txt file, lol

"and for one brief moment in time, DU stopped slitting each others throats and talked about restaurants, departed loved ones.. and pie crust..."

[Tsiyu]

191. "And there was much rejoicing"

[BrotherIvan]

198. That is genius

I've never heard of this recipe, but I will try it. I have some macadamia oil that's too sweet for sauteeing but would be fantastic in this recipe (we have dropped most vegetable oils). We don't eat crust much, but for my upcoming pecan pie, this is going to be perfect.

Thanks for sharing!

[Tsiyu]

206. no problem

I had my doubts but it turned out well, I guess more a sandy pie crust than super flaky as I think about describing, but so durn easy and such great results

it would be perfect for pecan pie

Cheers

[notadmblnd]

139. do you eat the green stuff that comes out of it?

I could never get past that.

[dionysus]

156. the tomale(sp)? hell no, but dad does.. i think the green stuff is gross... but there's some

meat in the body if you know where to find it.. good for making lobster rolls..

[notadmblnd]

157. I ordered a whole lobster once and that's what turned me off about it

There was no way to separate it from the meat, it just oozed all over the plate. Now if I order lobster, it is only a tail.

[dionysus]

158. ewww. i've never gotten more than a tail in a restaurant.. i prefer to cook my own at home...

minimum oozage... usually there a little in the tail but you can separate that.. never got any green ooze from the arms, legs or claws, just the body...

whole lobsters are messy with liquid, there's a technique to cracking the smaller claw off and drinking the lobster juice like a shot, if you want to, it's basically lobster broth... I think they operate kinda of like hydraulics when they are alive...

[pipi_k]

77. I have to agree

that there's a huge difference in the taste and quality.

I live in Mass, about 2 hours from the CT and Boston shores.

Not a stupendous distance, but...

Anytime I've been on vacation down in Niantic or Old Lyme, CT, or up in Portland, ME I was struck by how much better the seafood tasted almost right off the boat.

[MANative]

104. No doubt about it. I'm in Fairfield County now...

and even so close (less than 200 miles away) to my old stomping grounds, the quality of the seafood doesn't compare. On the rare occasions that I've found a market that has the really good stuff, usually trucked in daily direct from New Bedford or Gloucester processing houses, the prices are so high that it's ludicrous. Back home, I can get fresh cod in local markets for about $5-6/lb. Here, it's $10-12/lb, and it's not anywhere near as good. Saw it at one fish monger in Stamford for $14/lb. For cod! I remember paying around $3-4, not more than three or four years ago. Stew Leonard's "Dairy" stores (Westport, Danbury, Newington, CT) often have good quality seafood, but they average around $14/lb for everything. Swordfish a couple of weeks ago was $21/lb, and sea scallops were "on sale" for $19. Not in my budget!

[dionysus]

90. i feel you, in regards to seafood; i'm from Maine. but i've been on the road for work in shitty

towns, and at the end of the long day my only close options were red lobster, taco hell, and burger king... I didn't have time to search closely for a good local eatery (that is, if they had one; the place was bleak. they had a mom and pop "mexican" joint. it was worse than taco hell and burger king...)

not every place can be coastal Maine or other seafood hotspots...

[MANative]

108. Definitely true.

I also do a lot of business travel, and some of the places I've endured have been pretty dubious. At least at some of the chains, you have a realistic expectation about the marginal quality. As bad as it can be, you go in with your eyes open.

[JHB]

145. Similar for me. Grew up in an area with readily-available "off the boat" fish...

...so going to red Lobster was in the same boat (so to speak) as going to Pizza Hut when you're in the middle of Italian Food Central.

[progressoid]

178. You can say the same for chicken and pork and tomatoes and apples and cucumbers and on and on.

[unblock]

5. we've found red lobster to be great when travelling and/or meeting with family

certainly it's never great, but it has the advantage of being predictable minimally competent, with peanut-free fries for mini-unblock, and a place that everyone can usually agree on.

we don't seek out red lobster otherwise, there are plenty of places we know that are better in all respects, but when you're out of your area of known restaurants, it can be better than taking a stab at a random restaurant. we've had bad luck even with restaurants that get rave reviews.

[RockaFowler]

7. It could be that their food is too expensive and not that good

We went there because we had a Gift Certificate. The food was OK. The service was OK (they were late getting us a drink). They were way over-priced. I would rather go to a local Mom & Pop restaurant and get better tasting seafood and fresher. Oh and less expensive. To be honest I liked Outback Steakhouse more than Red Lobster. That place is always busy. Olive Garden and Red Lobster have lost customers because they lost their customer focus. A good meal at a good price!!

[Laelth]

8. Good question.

Is Red Lobster's demise due to the poor quality of its food or the continuing impoverishment of the American middle class?

I will await your response to this question before delving further into the issue.

-Laelth

[IDemo]

9. Five Guys != high-quality

One of the most sub-standard burgers I've had in years.

[Iggo]

12. You ain't kiddin'.

Not even on par with In N Out's standard dirt burgers.

[Brickbat]

13. Agreed. I don't get the hype at all. It's an OK bar burger -- but if I'm paying bar burger prices,

I damn well better be able to order a beer to wash it down.

[enlightenment]

17. That one cracked me up.

Noisy, peanut shells, and paper cups isn't really a "dining experience" of any kind.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

21. I'll tell you why I love Five Guys

They make a great burger (which, in the end, is a matter of opinion), and they don't pretend to be anything other than what they are. There isn's a "new lite options" menu; there is no chicken or seafood; there is no salad bar. In total, I think there are 20 menu items, and 10+ are burgers. You can get burgers, fries, hot dogs, and grilled cheese. That's it. Too many restaurants screw up by trying to be all things to everyone.

Also,I like the shelled peanuts while I wait. The paper cups don't bother me in the least. Beer would be a nice addition.

[enlightenment]

56. Oh, I like them.

It's a good business model and - obviously - works well. Some London friends were excited when they opened a restaurant there; the company must be doing well.
I don't mind paper cups (and love peanuts) and they make a decent burger . . . I just don't consider it a "dining" experience. An "eating" experience, yes.

[dionysus]

170. yeah, the peanut shells on the floor is old timey and pretty cool....

here everyone is pounding down those peanuts as they wait for their food...

[Algernon Moncrieff]

171. Actually, I think they encourage you to put the shells in the paper

However, IIRC from the old Roadhouse Grill, the shells on the floor supposedly act kinda like sweeping compound.

[dionysus]

172. i personally, try to be tidy, but... there's so much traffic going through there, the shells

end up everywhere.



and they soak up spills... like when the janitor at school used to throw down the sawdust looking stuff over kids messes....

[Manifestor_of_Light]

154. I walked out of a Five Guys without ordering because it was quite noisy.

So I have no idea if their burgers are any good or not.

In Texas we have Whataburger which started in Corpus Christi. It's pretty good. Better than Sonic.

[FSogol]

24. All fresh ingredients. Nothing is canned. They don't even have a freezer

or microwave in the place.

[IDemo]

27. Good for them

But they are completely untalented in assembling those ingredients into anything appetizing or interesting. That, plus the bun disintegrated before we were able to finish the burgers.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

62. What were you doing with the bun - playing volleyball?

I've been to Five Guys like 100 times in 6 states. I've never had a bun disintegrate. I've never known anyone who had a bun disintegrate.

They make an excellent $5-8 counter-service burger, and if one grew up going to places like Ocean City, MD, then one appreciates them as a ource of "boardwalk style" fries (i.e. cut with the skins on; fried in peanut oil; and with malt vinegar available with which to drench the fries).

[IDemo]

71. No, softball

No, wait..I was holding it together while attempting to finish the burger before the bread had completely separated, and failed. It required a couple of napkins to hold the mess together for the last several bites, and a good hand washing to cleanup.

Maybe this one is an outlier or they just had a batch of stale bread that day. But even with a good bun, there are several places within three miles that produce much better quality burgers.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

92. Quality of burgers is subjective, and if there are burgers you like better, that's cool.

I think the bun was an outlier, or they have a bad vendor wherever you are. In terms of chain burger places, I like Five Guys & Smash Burger. I'm not wild about Red Robin, but that's mostly service related. Cheeseburger In Paradise is more about beer than getting a good burger.

[jmowreader]

130. Get it without tomato

[Major Hogwash]

140. Then you haven't been to Crack in the Box lately.

I hadn't ever eaten there, not until 2 weeks ago after a friend begged and badgered me into going with him to that hole-in-the-wall drive-in.

Gawd, I just about threw up after only 2 bites.
Later that night, I more than sort of, wished I had of!
I don't know if they have a Five Guys drive-in here in Boise, but I doubt it will matter much, either.

[MindPilot]

10. I think people are going local

At least where I live there are dozens of mom & pop eateries for every chain. And there are always packed. So it isn't that people aren't eating out, it is that they are not eating at the big chains when the food at the lunch truck outside of Home Depot is probably a lot better quality food.

[Arugula Latte]

59. We avoid chain restaurants when we eat out.

However, we live in a city so that is easy to do. In the 'burbs or small towns it's sometimes hard to find a local restaurant for a "special occasion" -- i.e. something other than a little diner.

[tridim]

11. I went to Chipotle for my birthday this year, CEO Lopdrup.

I haven't been to Red Lobster in 20 years because it sucks.

[oberliner]

14. Panera and Five Guys offer a high-quality dining experience?

I don't know about that.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

15. I sorta agree

Red Lobster, in particular, has been badly managed, and impacted by wild fluctuations in its two main products -- shrimp and lobster. Prices at Olive Garden have been creeping ever upward. I can tell you this: I live about a block from an OG, and they don't seem to hurt for business.

Three things:

1) During the Great Recession, I think many Americans learned that Chipotle/Panera/Five Guys offered a solid dining experience without the added expense of a tip to a server. "Acceptable" tipping has increased from the old 10-15% to 18-20% due to the failure of the hospitality industry to raise base wages. Eating at these places was like getting a discount over Chili's et. al.

2) Business travelers on expense accounts are often still working with a $40-$45 meal allowance per day for non-client meals (and in many cases - they have less). Chipotle/Panera/Five Guys offer a chance to stretch that dollar.

3) Americans are generally getting more credit card debt conscious. Remember that casual dining really didn't come about until the late 80s, when restaurants that were not "fine dning" started taking credit cards. At the same time, the late 80s was a time when credit cards became much more readly available. Red Lobster, Chili's, Applebee's, and Olive Garden (among many others) became very popular -- for business travellers, for family gatherings big and small, and for an increasing (then new) phenomenon; families with competing tme crunches among parents and kids eating out multiple times per week because no one had time to cook

As to your point about food quality, my counter argumenrt would be that most Americans do not live in the greater New York City area, where the little Italian place or the little Seafood joint, with really great food, is common. Many people, especially those who travel, will gravitate toward the chain restaurant that is a known-quantity. Trip Advisor and Yelp! have, to some extent, helped tip the balance back to local spots. Nevertheless, people tend to eat at places they know.

[Skidmore]

19. I go to RL for the

biscuits.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

23. They now sell Red Lobster cheddar bay biscuit mix at Sam's Club

You also have to buy shredded cheddar.

I've made them. They are pretty darn close.

[spinbaby]

64. You don't need a mix

Just use any basic drop biscuit recipe, add shredded cheddar cheese, and brush with garlic butter before putting into the oven.

[Algernon Moncrieff]

103. I think the mix is essentially Bisquick

What you are really paying for are the tiny envelopes of spice mix you mix to make the garlic butter taste right. As you say, if you can figure that out, any drop biscuit recipe will work.

[niyad]

165. I found a recipe online years ago for those biscuits, very close indeed.

I just saw the new packaged mix at my supermarket yesterday. not going to bother.

[Pisces]

20. Red Lobster is too pricey for the crappy food. You can go to much better places and

spend the same amount for higher quality. Quality is the reason these restaurants are failing.
Add Bennigans, Fridays, Chili's to the list. Terrible quality for middle prices.

[el_bryanto]

25. So do people think the middle class has less money to spend on eating out?

Or that they are getting more selective because Red Lobster and Olive Garden suck?

I think it's probably more that people have less money -but I can see that may not be the majority opinion.

Bryant

[FSogol]

26. If people have less money, they make their choices more carefully. RL just isn't

worth it.

[winter is coming]

30. +1. They're more likely to buy ingredients for a "special" meal and cook it themselves

or simply not eat out at all.

[RedCappedBandit]

183. Probably both.

Red Lobster isn't cheap. There's really no reason to choose it over another restaurant, if there's something else available in town.

[Dreamer Tatum]

28. I think people are, more or less, assholes.

If you actually read what Red Lobster has been doing, at what it's trying to do to
update its menu, provide better and more diverse food, and so on, it is EXACTLY what
the dozens of food service experts on DU think they should do.

I guess it's easier to see that something is a chain, and sneer at it no matter what. Other
examples include Radio Shack and the former Blockbuster Video.

[FSogol]

31. So, someone who disagrees with you about a restaurant chain is an asshole?

No one cares if you want to eat at RL, go for it. I'll spend my bucks elsewhere if that's ok with you.

[Dreamer Tatum]

33. No, someone who says 'they should do X' and then ignores when X is done

as they howl about why X isn't being done...THAT is an asshole.

Anyone who disagrees with me is merely wrong.


Big distinction.

[CBGLuthier]

81. You need a better list

All of those suck. Suck balls. Served no purpose and went away. So I am an asshole for not liking shitty food, poor service or just simply preferring Netflix.

You got some weird-ass qualifiers there, buddy. I told my wife the other day I am going to start using the word buddy instead of what I really mean but I imagine you can suss it out.

[Dreamer Tatum]

82. No, you miss the point, merely to get falsely upset at something I said. nt

[CBGLuthier]

84. Trust me, what you said was not important enough to me to get upset, falsely or otherwise.

buddy.

[Dreamer Tatum]

86. Yet you're still here. Odd. Go play, buddy.

I'm not intimidated.

[DAMANgoldberg]

166. Need to change the business model...

If you are in a position such as Red Lobster, Applebee's, et cetera, and the quality you want to provide isn't readily available at the price points you want, then it's beyond time to strip the menu and surroundings back to core menu items and get rid of table service, i.e. go down market. In Applebee's case, market over saturation is probably the culprit here, and in Red Lobster's case, they have an opportunity to redefine the chain for sustainability instead of a new team trying the same old plans that got them to where they are now.

Red Lobster either needs to go way upmarket, which will be next to impossible with their footprint, or go downmarket. They can't survive where they are now.

[Dreamer Tatum]

188. OH MY GOD someone gets it.

Red Lobster is trying to barbell their menu to add margin and traffic...I doubt it will work, but they agree with you.

[DAMANgoldberg]

194. Gimmicks only work for so long...

What the new CEO is trying to do is to recreate a vision of being an special event restaurant. "At the end of the day, people are not going to go to a Chipotle for their anniversary or their birthday," This may be true but is condescending to say the least, and a few visits a year will not sustain the $2.5M revenue a restaurant of that size is going to need to survive (approx, $50K/week @ ACV = $15). The numbers don't add up in most cases, that's why they need to find a way to operate on a model that only requires about $1.3M to make money, and that would require getting their restaurants down to about the size of a Chipole, Smashburger, or similar concept (about 3-4K SqFt). They would come out better trying to upscale Captain D's or Long John Silvers to "Fast Casual" from "Quick Service".

[roody]

29. Crappy food. Seafood depletion no fun.

Dead lobster divers no fun either.

[Iron Man]

34. The food at Red Lobster is just as bad as Old Country Buffet.

[Zen Democrat]

35. Actually those restaurants were okay 20 years ago. But Red Lobster has gone down in a big way.

Olive Garden is just okay, but I never eat there because there are 25 Italian restaurants in my area that are better. I'm a Carrabba's fan.

Maybe the middle class doesn't want to spend their hard-earned money on mediocre food?

[KurtNYC]

37. People are eating better than they used to, also drinking less booze

Old chain restaurants are somewhat out of fashion as more people seek lighter, fresher, more local fare.

Out: $30 sit down chains
In: Chipotle, food trucks, Whole Foods take away, farmers' markets, and non-corporate restaurants

Booze is typically 40% or more of the bill in old chain restaurants, many of which push booze as their hook but

"The overall softening in adult beverage is playing out more in restaurants and bars than at retail," according to recent analysis by Technomic. "Adult beverage volume in the on-premise channel — comprised of restaurants, bars, and other locations — contracted 1.3%, while retail volume declined .7% in 2013."

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/03/24/alcohol-sales-falling-in-restaurants-and-bars.aspx

[leftstreet]

46. Out: drinking and driving

Good points

[RobinA]

48. I Wish I Knew

where people are eating better. In my neck of the woods the casual chains have gone downhill and the non-chains have gone downhill. Former non-chain standbys for a good dinner out have taken a dive into total disappointment. Best meal I've had in awhile was at a Waffle House while I was on vacation, because they were actually cooking the food and then serving it hot off the grill. No microwave, no keeping things warm in those expensive whatevertheyarecalleds.

That said, Olive Gardens around me are packed with long lines for dinner. Its all a matter of taste. I'll take Olive Garden any day over Panera, which I feel is incredibly overpriced

[KurtNYC]

61. a guide by zip code

http://www.eatwellguide.org/i.php?pd=Home

[RobinA]

107. Thanks

They are big on Elevation Burger. I'm going to have to try that place.

[KurtNYC]

123. Just checked their website....

fresh cut french fries cooked in olive oil...Mmmmmmm.

[KamaAina]

41. Have you tried the one in Times Square?

[eShirl]

43. ate at Red Lobster 1 time, ordered lobster: yuck!

It was obviously not fresh lobster, which, as a Maine native, is what I am used to.

It was the same quality of lobster one can expect from the lobster sandwiches at McDonald's.

[L0oniX]

45. Dirty tables, seats and carpet ...and cold or shitty cock roach of the sea.

[Go Vols]

47. You can BYOB here

to restaurants that don't serve liquor and just pay for setups.I can go 1/4 mile from my house,have a few drinks and eat a dozen raw oysters and a steak for about 30 bucks in a locally owned place.

I seldom eat at chains even when traveling.

[ecstatic]

50. I actually like Red Lobster but it's just one of those

places that you can't mention out loud without everyone saying something sarcastic about the food, etc. In other words, even the people who like RL are probably avoiding going there due to feeling embarrassed or to avoid comments from friends, etc.

[MerryBlooms]

51. I used to enjoy their biscuits, but the last couple of times we tried to eat there

it was like they were trying to cover up the taste of the food with salt. Absolutely horrible and even the biscuits were too salty. Haven't been back in over three years.

[laundry_queen]

93. Yep, they changed the biscuits

they are now disgusting. We didn't even eat them this last time, even the kids. Usually the kids gobble them up and want more. Not anymore. We left most of them in the basket. As you said, tasteless and loaded with salt. And I like salt.

Portions have shrunk too, and while that might be healthier, people looking for 'value' will skip it, thinking it's too expensive.

[Sheldon Cooper]

52. I can't speak to red lobster because I almost never go there, but Olive Garden is

nearly inedible anymore. I am not a food snob, and in the past I've enjoyed dinners at OG. Not exactly fine dining, but decent food at a reasonable price. I've noticed in the past 3-4 years or so that their food has become just awful. The pasta is way overcooked, the meat is overpriced and not particularly good, even the breadsticks are crappy now. And their meat sauce is disgusting. They've tried to widen their menu and offer all these so-called authentic Italian dishes, and I'm pretty sure that NO ONE in Italy is actually eating that crap. The only reason I ever eat there now is because my kids like it, and sometimes it's just convenient to go there instead of cooking.

For the record, I don't live on the coast, and there are no Mama and Papa authentic Italian restaurants around -so please don't throw that up to me.

[Gormy Cuss]

58. Eh, I've gone to crappy Mom & Pop Italian restaurants so that's no guarantee.

Olive Garden had perfected the art of cooking nearly everything offsite and just heating and assembling food to order in the restaurants. Pasta is parboiled, sauces arrive frozen in individual portions, etc. A lot of chains operate this way to some degree.

I've gone to Olive Garden with family and found the food really boring, but I grew up in a small city with three good Mom & Pop Italian restaurants so I'm a bit picky.

[SeattleVet]

63. If you get some of the restaurant industry supply catalogs...

or go to a well-stocked restaurant supply place (even the Costco Business Centers...not the usual 'consumer-level' Costcos) you'd be surprised to see how many of the frozen, pre-packaged meals and entrees are exactly what you're seeing in some of the better restaurants in town. A lot of the higher-end places are serving what are essentially gourmet TV dinners and getting top price for them, along with praise for their 'chefs', when all they did was pop it into the industrial microwave for the proper amount of time.

I'm not saying that all restaurants do this, but there are a LOT that make some things in-house, and rely on a well-stocked freezer for the rest. Olive Garden isn't the only one - lots of much fancier, higher-priced ones do as well.

[Gormy Cuss]

69. Yup, some independents do this too

but usually to a lesser degree. OTOH some chains do a lot of local cooking rather than thaw and reheat. Olive Garden isn't one of them.
One thing I've enjoyed about "Restaurant Impossible" is that Robert Irving is constantly showing restaurant owners that these conveniences are costing them more money than cooking from scratch while often providing inferior products.

[hedgehog]

75. This!

The company will place us in a high end chain hotel for meetings, and everyone assumes they're getting high end food, but it's all pre-frozen entrees. The fancy deserts (volcano cake) are the real offenders - you just know they came out of the freezer.

[laundry_queen]

98. And you can tell.

About 5-10 years ago there was a big changeover. Every single restaurant I used to like started tasting like crap. I'm one of those people that can pick out one changed ingredient or spice in a meal. yes, I drove my mother crazy when I was a child and would refuse certain brands of milk because they tasted funny, or would get upset when she added lemon zest to the blueberry pie once...she didn't tell me and I picked it out right away, "you put something sour in here, like lemon zest" She laughed and thought I wouldn't be able to tell because she only put in 1/2 tsp. Nope, I could tell. Anyway, I could tell the meals had drastically changed. There is a 'casual dining' restaurant here in Canada used to be a great place for pasta. Now it tastes like flour paste. And the prices are insane. I eat at home a lot more now (well partially because of money, lol) because I'm a better cook than they are.

[DefenseLawyer]

53. There is no doubt that there is a declining middle class

But Red Lobster is just a bad business model. Too expensive for lower income folks to eat at regularly and too poor quality to attract those with more options. I know back 20 years ago when I was poor I got sticker shock more than once when someone suggested Red Lobster. "I'm not very hungry. I'll have a cup of chowder and ice water."

[lunasun]

54. I avoid Darden restaurants because of the way they treat their employees . Not their crappy food

although I have to admit I would not go there because it is not my type of food
So many aware of Red L and Olive G employee problems and don't want to reward those practices

If another individual is offering a place to meet I try to steer the meeting away from Darden owned and push for more unique local places, rather than another chain group.
So far the request is always honored.

Chipotle etc is suppose to be known as a better work environment but again I do not like their food. It all looks fake. So all my reasons have nothing to do with the decline of a certain class. Perhaps it is a move to being socially aware of the company you spend $$ at and a desire for quality foods that cut these low ends out

[Zorra]

65. We are fortunate to have fantastic, local non-chain family owned restaurants

of all flavors in the in the rural valley and surrounding area where I live. We even have a little place that makes the best pizza west of New Jersey. And there is a tiny little family owned legendary Italian place right down the road from me, in a tiny little town, where no one would ever expect to find fine made from scratch fresh Italian dishes that are absolutely to die for.

I could not imagine choosing to eat in a chain restaurant unless it was like a 24 hr Denny's and I was on the road and starving at 3 AM, or I was in a time crunch and had no choice to grab something quick at a drive through.

Yes, I imagine that the decline of cookie cutter restaurants has a lot to do with serving schlep.

[sunnystarr]

66. I think men are cooking more ...

The Rachel Ray's et al found on every channel make it look really easy to whip up some great food. The Oz fans and those like him speak to the health conscious crowd who are looking for healthier meals. So many channels have shows that even make ME want to cook. I can see where this trend may drive down traffic to RL and OG by about 10%.

[Garthem]

67. Eww!

Red Lobster has always epitomized "shitty" for me.

[Fla Dem]

72. Resturant business is a cyclical business. Stores come and go.

Red Lobster ( I was never a fan) had a good 30-35 year run. People get tried of the same old/same old. Look at Howard Johnson, a restaurant icon from the 50's into the 80's....gone. Tastes change, kids grow up and find new restaurants. 30 years is a good run.

[Xithras]

73. Last time I ate at a Red Lobster...

...there were only four or five "healthy" options on the menu (all bland and uninteresting), we waited 15 minutes to be seated, and we had to wait over 20 minutes for our food. 35 minutes just to START eating.

That's the real problem with Red Lobster. Dining habits and expectations have changed, but they're still running it like it's 1992. They don't meet modern expectations when it comes to casual dining, and they're food and atmosphere isn't nearly good enough to make them a destination when someone wants to treat themselves to something a bit finer. They either need to retool to become much faster and offer healthier fare, or try to go in the other direction and become more Cheesecake Factory-ish (not literally, but to generally orient themselves as a mass-market "destination restaurant&quot . With proper planning, Red Lobster could have OWNED the market that is being taken over by Joes Crab Shack and its ilk. They could still do well in that market if they'd get off their arse and do the work.

It's not the economy that's hurting them, it's the stupid company leadership.

[woodsprite]

78. We loved Red Lobster. When my son was little, it was one of the few places that

had variety on the kids menu (he could even get crab legs). He was never the chicken strip kinda kid, and Mac and cheese was a side dish, not a main course.

Our family also loves it because you can get a half portion of pasta at dinner. Half portions are something that is just now being done at other restaurants around here (DE). No reason to get food overload, have to haul around boxed leftovers, or waste half your meal.

[Politicalboi]

79. Money has put the crimp on me

But mostly it was the Gulf oil spill that scares me away from sea food.

[madville]

185. I wouldn't worry about the oil spill

If dining at Red Lobster or having seafood at almost any chain for that matter, most of their stuff these days is farm raised from Asia and processed in China.

[dionysus]

85. i know people love to beat them up, but as a broke college student, the unlimited salad and

breadsticks at olive garden allowed the entrée to be brought home for a second meal... was it the best quality food? lol. but it was cheap and I was poor...

as for red lobster, sadly I've been on the road for work in half horse towns (not even a one horse town ) where unfortunately red lobster was the fanciest place around for a guy who doesn't know the area at all. I'd take it over burger king or taco hell, which were my two other options...

[MohRokTah]

95. The decline in Red Lobster is directly proportional to the increase of more palatable food.

[alarimer]

109. Maybe I've been spoiled by living near the coasts, but I thought Red Lobster was crap.

I guess it was the only seafood some people got for a while, unless they went on vacation to Florida.

I hope that this is really because people have other options these days.

Even my small town (though it has its share of chain places) has a few options that are local and decent and not expensive at all.

[dionysus]

114. i'm from Maine, and i know good seafood. sadly, there are some towns out there where red lobster is

damn near fine dining; that's bleak.

[Major Hogwash]

146. Cheyenne, Wyoming, for one.

And believe me, it was the finest restaurant in that town that wasn't located farther than 5 miles from the freeway!!

[pstokely]

195. crappy chain restaurants are always in high traffic convenient locations

local places can't afford the rent at the strip mall on interstate, many mall managers will only lease to chains

[pstokely]

196. Aren't there some good nonchain steakhouses in Cheyenne, Wyoming?

any seafood served in the middle of the country will be frozen or really expensive

[Little Star]

110. They tried putting a Red Lobster down on Cape Cod....

It didn't make it a year & they closed up. It was pretty gross when you are spoiled with the real thing like we are.

Olive Garden was good when they first opened but went down hill pretty quick. What do they have now, 10 things on their menu? They sure know how to ruin a good thing quick.

[dionysus]

115. now THAT is funny!

[Vattel]

117. crappy food at high prices is a deadly combination

[ScreamingMeemie]

118. Here is where the writer of this piece and a whole lot of DU are out of touch...

These places are not "middle class" chains. Denny's is a middle class chain. The average plate at Red Lobster is between $15-20, much more than what most of my "middle class" friends want to pay.

I have never had a beef with Red Lobster or Olive Garden. I don't eat at either often because I can't afford it.

I do have a beef with saying Chipotle, 5 Guys etal. are cheap. They are not.

[dilby]

119. All depends on where you live.

Here in Oregon $15-$20 is considered normal for a sit down restaurant while I hear in Atlanta $40 is the norm for a middle class meal. Heck the food carts here run $7-$10 so asking $5 extra for sit down is not that bad.

[ScreamingMeemie]

120. My opinion does not depend on where I live.

If I lived in Atlanta with a job, I'd be making more (for the most part) than I would living in Houston with the same job. Cost of living creates those issues.

[leftstreet]

124. You're talking about working class restaurants

I know, I know...everybody here hates that word

'middle class' people are the Red Lobster and Olive Garden eaters the article refers to

[ScreamingMeemie]

147. They are not.

I am solidly middle class, and those are a bit pricey.

[alcibiades_mystery]

176. I have to say, I agree with the previous poster that I have trouble seeing your price range

$15-$20 for an entree is pretty standard for most "middle class" restaurants around here (Chicago), but it's also fairly standard in my travels the last 5 years. Hell, a burger costs $10-$12 in most pubs/ breweries / family restaurants all around the country these days. TGIFridays and the like will all charge you $15-20 for an entree. That's a middle class price. Once you start hitting 25, 30, 40 for an entree, you're talking about a pricier restaurant. Really pricey means you pretty much agree at the door to drop $200 minimum on a dinner for two. But $16.99 for an entree is the middle class restaurant meal. If it seems exorbitant to you, I'd have to agree with the previous poster that you are probably not middle class, at least as I understand it. I liked the phrase "working class," and I think that's right, at least as a traditional category.

[dionysus]

133. yeah, 7 or 8 bucks or whatever for a burger isn't cheap. Two real good, local, almost identical

chains here are Bill Gray's and Tom Wahls. More expensive than McDonalds but cheaper than 5 Guys, and delicious.

[ScreamingMeemie]

148. That looks yummy!

[Xithras]

138. Middle Class and Working Class are not the same thing

As my very-redneck father used to put it: "There's no such thing as a middle class redneck. If someone claims to be one, they're either pretending or confused."

Middle Class = Working professionals. Doctors, lawyers, teachers, engineers, small business owners, management level employees in a business, skilled craftsman, etc. Basically, it means that you have a job that requires more than just a basic bachelors degree, or a job in a skilled trade that requires an apprenticeship, or a large cash investment in a business (like buying inventory or purchasing a store location to found a company). Historically, the middle class has been the backbone of the economy, and typically purchases most of the goods in our society. In America, the average middle class household takes home about $75k per year, with a range of over $150k a year.

Working class = Blue collar workers, sales people, hourly employees, unskilled craftsmen and apprentices, etc. Generally speaking (and yes, there are many exceptions), these are workers who have jobs that do not require college degrees beyond the basic bachelors, advanced training or apprenticeships, or major investments on the part of the employee. Working class people tend to produce most of the goods for society, but consume far less of them directly, mostly because of lower incomes. The average wage in a working class American household is around $40k a year, but can range a bit higher.

There's actually a bit of overlap between the two definitions, but many Americans erroneously assume they're middle class when they're actually working class. Population-wise, it's a pretty even split with working class and middle class each comprising about 30%-40% of the overall population.

FWIW, I'm solidly middle class with an upper middle class income, and I can't remember the last time I was in a Denny's as an adult. My mom waitressed there for a while when I was a kid, and I mostly remember the food being really bad and really cheap. A quick look at their menu online doesn't inspire any confidence that things have changed. Moon Over My Hammy? Pancake Puppies? Country Fried Steak? It doesn't sound like a place that is targeting Yelp-loving modern diners who actually care about the quality of their food. Sounded more like a truck stop menu. I'll eat at a greasy spoon now and then (and being a native Northern Californian, have a soft spot for food trucks), but it's usually the kind of thing I'll eat in a pinch, and not the kind of food I'd eat if I were going out to enjoy myself. I don't think I'm in their target demographic

[pstokely]

197. Denny's is "middle class"?

Denny's is for racists and drunk college kids at 3AM, not families at 6PM

[JI7]

121. it's the Internet, especially smartphones , people can now look up restaurants and reviews

red lobster and other chains probably did well because of familiarity .

but now people can look up restaurants in whatever area they are at and get reviews and pictures and menus.

[randys1]

126. Went recently against my best intuition, food was crappy, never again

[brewens]

136. I still went to Skippers for several years after our Red Lobster opened. They had better fish and

shrimp. Not to mention the chowder. Skippers is now in serious decline if they are still open anywhere, they were for years our region. I can't say I have seen one still running anywhere since about five years ago.

I worked at the first ever Skippers franchise in the early 80's. Our boss/owner was a first rate restaraunt man. He was still running a pretty successful Skippers when all the others were going down in flames, despite pretty much zero support at the corporate level. He pulled out all the stops to keep going. He stopped using their official paper products and cups to save money, introducing unauthorized menue items, all kinds of things that would have gotten him shut down if corporate still gave a shit. He sold it and the new owners didn't last a year.

That was really a shame. When I started there we cut, battered and breaded everything right on site. It was all frozen being so far from the coast but it was all top quality stuff. Shrimp was always a little seasonal. Sometimes they weren't as big and fat but they were always pretty good. I had some at Red Lobster once that were so pathetic you couldn't even really taste the shrimp.

The all you can eat fish fries and chowder at a good Skippers was really alright back in the day.

[jmowreader]

137. The decline of Red Lobster is the rise of restaurant oversaturation

I live in a city with 46,000 residents. We have:

Pizza Hut (two stores)
Outback Steakhouse
Golden Corral
Red Lobster
Olive Garden
Red Robin
Denny's
IHOP
Buffalo Wild Wings (not yet completed, but will be soon)
Applebee's
Chili's
Cafe Rio
Qdoba
Texas Roadhouse

I didn't list the fast-food places or any of the dozens of locally-owned restaurants or regional chains. Those are just the national chains. And you know every other midsize and large community is similarly overbuilt.

The real reason Red Lobster is in trouble isn't the quality of the food - many people think it's just fine. It's that there is too much competition for the restaurant dollar. None of us are Andre the Giant - we can't order every item on the menu in the order it appears.

[BootinUp]

149. Red Lobster was never the hip joint was it?

I never dined there anyways. Maybe once.

[Historic NY]

151. I'd make it myself...before I'd eat their crap.

I can get fresh or frozen too.

[B Calm]

153. I love Red Lobster's garlic rolls and their fish sandwich is awesome!

[Cha]

159. I think Kim Lopdrup underestimates the

Power of good Mexican Food.. it's everywhere! Because.. wait for it.. People love it!

[liberal N proud]

160. Chipotle, Panera, and Five Guys are not Fine Dining

They are fast food that is a step above MacDonald's and Burger King.

[alcibiades_mystery]

177. ROFL...I laughed at that: if you "order" at a counter, it's not even dining

It's fast food. I mean, honestly. Am I now some kind of food snob because I don't think getting a greasy bag full of fries (5 Guys) or having a teenager slop black beans onto a flour burrito behind a sneeze guard (Chipotle) is fine dining? It is to laugh.

[SpartanDem]

187. Who said they where fine dining?

[Tsiyu]

164. I will never understand how companies can pay crap wages

and accept that other companies pay crap wages, and fight and lobby and wail and gnash teeth to keep wages low, and then expect the resulting poverty to not be reflected in lower sales.

It's like some fantasy world corporations and politicians have created for themselves.

"We'll starve the steer so we can show more profit when we sell the scrawny thing." Same basic concept.

Math and basic financial intelligence have gone the way of science with some people ...... they've never heard of either.


And we may as well just forget the simple human concept of caring enough about your employees - over your bottom line - to pay them enough to keep them off food stamps. Simple human decency is gone from Darden and other corps.

And then they whine.

[RedCappedBandit]

184. +A million

[Tsiyu]

192. I was just thinking

saying that "Raising the minimum wage will hurt the economy" is like saying, "If you put more gas in your car, it won't go as far."

Stunning dumbitude

[jen63]

167. Over priced, crappy food n/t

[Drunken Irishman]

179. Not everything is associated with the dying Middle Class.

We went through the same debate when people pointed the mall dying was proof of the death of the middle class.

No, this is just another shift in American culture. It happens a lot. It happened in the 1960s when people became more suburban and Main Street died (no, that wasn't the death of the middle class - tho, you could make the case it was the death of the inner-city) and this is no different. Populations shift. The article even addresses *WHY* places like Red Lobster and Olive Garden are having issues:

so-called fast-casual dining is red-hot. Chipotle, Panera, and Five Guys offer cheaper and quicker but still high-quality dining experiences. Fast-casual is the fastest-growing segment in the restaurant industry, with an 11 percent increase in sales in 2013.

They're also better quality than Red Lobster. So, there's that...

[RedCappedBandit]

186. I'd choose Chipotle over RL every time..

and it's much cheaper too.

[RedCappedBandit]

182. Red Lobster is more expensive than plenty of vastly superior restaurants...

I could see eating there if it was actually inexpensive, but it isn't..

If there are only other chain restaurants in the neighborhood, then sure. If there are alternatives? I'd choose elsewhere.

[mackerel]

193. I like to take the kids to The Habit for a good burger and they have the best

tuna sammies there. It's the same price points as 5 Guys but I think it's better quality. The thing I do like about 5 guys is they have a grilled veggie sammie and the peanuts are fun. I find Chipotle to not be that flavorful although the ingredients are very fresh. We also like Rubio's. The thing is their price points are a little high for everyday dining. I can't walk out of any of those places with 3 people paying less that $25 not including tip.

[ebbie15644]

203. I personally hate their food anymore.

I also recently told them about my experience and had no response from them. Crappy food and Crappy customer service.

[MinM]

205. "fast-casual dining is red-hot"

Back in the mid-80s I had a business class that featured Red Lobster's comeback story in one of the text books. One of their keys to success at the time was to allow customers to 'graze' ie., take time to enjoy the dining experience.

Flash forward to the op ..

To make matters worse for casual dining, so-called fast-casual dining is red-hot. Chipotle, Panera, and Five Guys offer cheaper and quicker but still high-quality dining experiences. Fast-casual is the fastest-growing segment in the restaurant industry, with an 11 percent increase in sales in 2013. Restaurants like Chipotle are great for the middle class...

Combine that with the decline in Red Lobster's food quality and you go the way of Burger Chef, Chi-Chi's, Bill Knapp's...