A modest proposal for Israel regarding US weapons.

[yurbud]

Americans care deeply about the survival of Israel and feel a strong sense of kinship to our Jewish cousins over there.

At the same time, we are uneasy about seeing weapons we have given them used to kill civilians on a large scale.

Therefore, from now on, we will no longer supply heavy weapons like aircraft, tanks, and the like to Israel or the spare parts to keep those they have running. Instead, any attack on Israel by foreign armies will be considered an attack on the US, and we will respond directly.


That shouldn't happen too often though because Israel has peace treaties with two of her immediate neighbors, Egypt and Jordan, a history of cooperating with another, Saudi Arabia, and the remaining neighbors are basket cases either recovering from civil war and past Israeli invasions in the case of Lebanon or a current civil war in the case of Syria.

When it comes to dealing with terrorist or rocket attacks, I've heard that Israel has a pretty good intelligence capabilities that should allow them neutralize those on the ground.

But as in Northern Ireland and South Africa, the best way to deal with terrorists is to put them out of business by making a just peace.

If anyone says my plan won't work or that our military can't do the same job Israel's can, or that we wouldn't keep our promise to defend Israel, I would remind them of our decades of troops in Korea, Japan, and Europe.

And this wouldn't even require stationing troops in Israel. We've got plenty in the neighborhood.

Also, if you think the Israeli military can do a better job than ours, you are insulting our troops and showing a lack of patriotism.

[magical thyme]

1. um, speak for yourself

"Americans care deeply about the survival of Israel "

not this American. I don't believe they have any inherent right to exist as a country. Any right they may have had has long since ended with their war crimes, imo.


"and feel a strong sense of kinship to our Jewish cousins over there."

I have 4 Jewish cousins over here. They were mean-spirited and bullying to me when we were kids. They dumped me as adults. I have no "Jewish cousins" in Israel that I'm aware of and I feel ZERO, NADA, NYET "Kinship" with Zionists who are following a hundred+ year old desire to steal all the land that the Palestinian people inhabited for thousands of years.

[broiles]

4. +1000

[yurbud]

8. that was just to hook people.

[Laelth]

2. That proposal is not exactly modest.

In fact, it's pretty radical and risky, and I predict that it will fall upon deaf ears.

-Laelth

[Cali_Democrat]

3. This is definitely one of the more interesting proposals I've seen

But keep in mind that sending weapons to Israel is big business....as in BILLIONS of dollars a year.

That's one of the reasons we send them so many high tech weapons....it's obviously not all about self defense.

[Boom Sound 416]

5. You want to park an aircraft carrier on

The Gaza shore.

That ought to go over well. Hamas will still use children as human shields, so then we are faced with the same dilemma as the IDF.

Besides, I don't think Israel qualifies as NATO status which I what you're describing, unless some bigger kids on the block get involved.

[yurbud]

9. and if someone is using a kid as a human shield HERE, and a cop shot the kid...

would we consider that cop a hero, especially if the guy using the kid as a shield seems a bit scarce?

[Boom Sound 416]

12. We?

What??

[yurbud]

22. would ANYONE consider such a cop a hero?

especially if he killed a whole playground full of kids for one hypothetical criminal?

[Boom Sound 416]

24. Hero aside, your example is about utilitarianism.

So in your scenario the one criminal is killed but the collateral damage is a school yard full of children.

Well, let's say the criminal is a suicide nuclear terrorist.

It's a silly 'what if' scenario that does not relate to the actual scenerio.

[yurbud]

25. there are no nukes in Gaza.

[Boom Sound 416]

27. Sorry, I'm not as fast in and out of hypotheticals I guess

[Maedhros]

31. Your posts are ridiculous and incoherent.

/ignore list.

[Boom Sound 416]

32. ...

[Scootaloo]

28. "Well, let's say the criminal is a suicide nuclear terrorist. "

Oh! What if he's a bear, too! A big ol' scary grizzly bear all like RAAWWWWRRR! But not just any grizzly bear, no! he's a communazi bear FROM MARS!!!!! And he wants to sell you a timeshare auuuuuuugh!



Seriously, this is some USDA prime bullshit you're posting man. you're not making your case, in fact you're making your case look stupider. Just... stop.

[Boom Sound 416]

30. You just made my point. Just...keep it up

[joshcryer]

6. You don't want drones flying over Gaza.

The best solution I can think of is to let Hamas shoot rockets for a few years, put more money into Iron Dome and shelters. Relieve the blockaid with an offer to have an independent third party examine imports.

[Lurks Often]

7. Won't work

Israel builds it's much of it's own equipment. They may prefer US equipment in some cases, as it keeps their costs down, but they'll buy from France, Germany, England or whoever else will sell to them if it comes to that or spend the extra money and would re-start production on things like aircraft and anything else we stopped supplying.

Here is a link that shows what Israel produces itself and what it buys elsewhere:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_equipment_of_Israel

What Israel WON"T do is allow ANY other country to be responsible for the protection of Israel.

I'll also note that Israel is a nuclear power with the probable ability to strike most countries and I find it extremely likely that if Israel is about to be destroyed as a country, they will launch those nuclear weapons and don't be surprised if some of those mushroom clouds aren't restricted to the Middle East

[yurbud]

10. those nukes are why it is extremely unlikely anyone would try to invade, nuke, destroy or whatever

[Lurks Often]

14. And how many times has Israel been invaded or at war already?

From Wikipedia, Notable wars and violent events involving Israel since 1948: 1948 Arab–Israeli War 1948–1949,
Retribution operations 1951–1955, Suez War 1956, Six-Day War 1967, War of Attrition 1967–1970, Yom Kippur War 1973, South Lebanon conflict 1978, First Lebanon War 1982, South Lebanon conflict 1982–2000, First Intifada 1987–1993, Second Intifada 2000–2004, Second Lebanon War 2006, Gaza War 2008–2009, Operation Pillar of Defense 2012, 2014 Israel-Gaza conflict 2014.

Among Israel's enemies are religious fundamentalists who truly believe they will go to their version of heaven if they die, if you think nuclear weapons are going to stop them, you are shockingly naive.

Only a fool relies on religious fundamentalists, of any religion, to use common sense and behave reasonably.

[yurbud]

16. uhhhh....after Yom Kippur War, all of those are Israel doing the invading.

[Lurks Often]

17. I'm aware of that

I'll save us both some time, I don't agree with your proposal or anything else you have stated in this thread and I see no point in wasting further time responding when we aren't going to agree on anything.

[yurbud]

19. if you agreed Israel was the invader on the back end of those, why add them to your list?

[Scootaloo]

29. Invaded? none

1948 took place in territories occupied beyond Israel's borders.
1956 was an invasion of Egypt.
1967 was an invasion of Egypt, the remaining Palestinian territories, and Golan
1973 occurred in Sinai and Golan
The two invasions of Lebanon were, er, invasions of Lebanon.
I suppose you could count the two intifadas, as militants did infiltrate Israel to conduct attacks.

[yurbud]

11. Israel's greatest fear is becoming a true, multi-ethnic democracy

Palestinians who live within Israel have many rights, but not as many as Israelis, and those in the occupied territories seem to have none at all.

[yurbud]

21. those nuclear weapons are another reason we don't need to continue to supply them

they are unlikely to be attacked or invaded by another country as long as they have those nukes.

And without the Soviets at their back, no country is going to get in a fight with Israel that they will lose in any case.

[hack89]

13. "neutralizing on the ground" = boots on the ground in Gaza

Are you giving the IDF free reign to enter Gaza to neutralize terrorists?

[Aristus]

18. Israel manufactures its own rifles, the Uzi and the Ghalil.

It's own jet, the Kfir. And it's own tank, the Merkava. Precisely because they could no longer rely on sales from the west.

What we need to do is stop supporting them politically.

[yurbud]

20. in all seriousness, it means something to people when they see their family being killed by American

weapons, and it means something to me.

[Aristus]

23. I agree.

What I'm saying is, the killing won't stop simply because we stop selling weapons to Israel. The Israeli defense industry will see to that.

My take on it is: I don't care where the weapons originate; stop the killing...

[yurbud]

26. we have various means of doing so if our government really wants to