PSDA (Public Servie Derp Announcement) re Israel's "Final Solution"

[Bonobo]

20% of Israel's population is Arab. They have full rights as Israeli citizens and travel anywhere they want.

The majority of these identify themselves as Arab or Palestinian by nationality and Israeli by citizenship. Many have family ties to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as well as to Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. Negev Bedouins and Druze tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab citizens of Israel.

Most of the Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, occupied by Israel in the Six-Day War of 1967 and later annexed, were offered Israeli citizenship, but most have refused, not wanting to recognize Israel's claim to sovereignty. They became permanent residents instead. They have the right to apply for citizenship, are entitled to municipal services, and have municipal voting rights.

So, if you have used the words "final solution" or "genocide" or you have made the blisteringly idiotic nazi comparison, you need to check yourself because you just might be a Derp.

[Scootaloo]

1. I wonder what you would call what is being done to Palestinians, if it were being done to Jews

No doubt you would be as smug and self-congratulatory about it, right?

[Bonobo]

2. Stick to what's in the OP. nt

[DisgustipatedinCA]

3. Absolutely. Let's stick with what's in the OP.

I just need the slightest bit of clarification from you. About those full rights as Israeli citizens that they enjoy--are they voting for municipal dog catcher, or are they voting in national elections in, say, East Jerusalem? We'll just stay with this subject so that there's no need to get into these other uncomfortable and squishy topics. Let me know about those full rights as they pertain to voting, thanks.

[Bonobo]

6. Why yes, they do have full voting rights. Thanks for asking. nt

[Scootaloo]

4. I've covered the bullshit in your OP time and again

Last edited Wed Jul 30, 2014, 10:25 PM - Edit history (1)

Go a search.

Israel blew up Gaza's power plant. it will be a year before it can be repaired if the supplies and manpower can be achieved. In that time, that basically destroys Gaza's water infrastructure - already badly damaged from 2012, when Israel targeted the sewer treatment plant in Gaza. Israel tells people to flee to schools and shelters, and then bombs those. This is on top of the nine years of total strangulation Israel has levied against Gaza ("Strangling" being Sen. Schumer's term - he got a laugh out of it, thought it was great.) This is on top of the sheer number of Gazans killed and maimed.

In the west bank, Israel exercises total military control, as well as civic control, where Arabs cannot make land purchases, but can have their homes confiscated or condemned or captured for Israeli use. Water flows freely in Israel's settlements, but water is under strict ration for Arabs in the west bank. On top of the paroxysms of violence unleashed by "settlers" against Arabs, while Israeli soldiers stand by or guard the settlers.

In Israel itself, there is widespread, government-backed discrimination - yes Arab Israelis can vote, but unless they vote for openly anti-Arab political parties, like those making the current ruling coalition, it's meaningless. Sort of like pointing out black people could all vote in 1930. In the Naqab, those Bedouin you mention are being driven from their homes, to make way for jewosh townships where those homes currently are. And no,they won't be allowed to move in because that;s how "state land" in Israel works - it's only for jews to access, purchase, or live on. of course, this is to be expected in the Jewish State, with its Jewish democracy, that makes absolutely no mention of that one-fifth of its population.

That, prior to an act of ethnic cleansing, was four-fifths of the population.

But okay. we can't call any of this genocide. What softer, fluffier terms would you use, Bonobo? And again, would you soften it if the victims were Jews?

[Bonobo]

7. It's not "genocide". That is the point of the OP.

Thanks for agreeing. nt

[Scootaloo]

10. It's just the deliberate effort to destroy a people

Gosh, if only there were a word for that!

[Bonobo]

12. Probably would have been smart not to offer them full citizenship in that case. nt

[Cali_Democrat]

13. Your inability to have empathy for the Palestinian people...

...is a very conservative trait.

You should be ashamed of yourself.

If I wanted the right wing perspective, I could just turn the dial to Rush Limbaugh's radio program.

[Bonobo]

14. I have empathy and you are in no position to judge my inner emotions.

Empathy does not mean that I will not stand up when people throw around terms like "genocide".

"Genocide" is what Jews faced and would still face if most Arab states had succeeded in their attempts.

It is NOT an apt description of what is happening.

You want to say "massacre"? Fine. I agree.

But "genocide" and nazi references will always get me to react. I will not let them slide. Empathy or no.

[JI7]

17. but the Arabs were not the Nazis

[Scootaloo]

18. Haven't seen you standing up for people's right to not fucking be killed

Remember, Rwanda also wasn't a genocide, until after someone went "oh, I guess that happened." No one thought to call Srebrenica a genocide, as it was occurring. For a long time, Darfur was "just" ethnic tensions and strife. Until 2011, Israel adamantly denied the Armenian genocide - it simply "didn't count."

each of these, and the shoah, and the porjamos, and the Kurdish genocides in Turkey and in Iraq, and hte genocide of the pygmy peoples in Congo, and every other one you can think of, started with one person. Two. Seven. Ten. Fifteen. Fifty. a hundred. Hundred and five, Hundred and eighty... so on, up and up.

and the whole time the world gazed on the number and didn't care, because, gosh, it wasn't enough. or they weren't the right kind of people being killed. or some other flaky evasive bullshit tactic.

I've been a critic of using the term "genocide" here for a long time, myself. But you know what, after a lot of thinking... there's just not a better term for it in ou language. There's simply not. It's the systemic efforts to destroy the Palestinian people. That's as good a cal lfor "genocide" as any.

A good rule of thumb I've found on DU, is that when Cali_Democrat and I find something we can agree on, whatever our position is is probably the correct one. it happens infrequently enough to be noted when it does. And yes, your "inner emotions" are on full display. empathy is certainly not among them. You're obviously more concerned with semantics than you are with the killing and mauling of these people

[Bonobo]

19. That doesn't mean I have no empathy.

There are plenty of voices screaming about the killing and being the only Jew in the room angry hateful amidst voices is not a new phenomena to most Jews. So if we stand up to anti-Jewish shouting, don't be surprised. For Jews, being on the defense has been built into us -not only in our own lifetimes and experiences- but in the experiences of 100 generations.

You will find few voices that have spoken as much about killing as mine. I am categorically anti-war. But there is so much repressed dislike for Jews and Israel lurking and, now coming out of the woodwork, that I will rise and say that "No", Israel is NOT genocidal, "No", Jews are not genocidal and "No" if you want to find war crimes, look at your own fucking country (which I LEFT out of opposition to war) which has killed ONE THOUSAND fold the numbers of innocent people that Israel has and WITHOUT the reasons that Israel has (namely that its back is against the wall and it is surrounded by those who would see all of its citizens die).

HAMAS, the fucking leadership of the Gaza govt. calls for the destruction of Israel. WTF do you expect as a response? No, it is NOT genocide -If words actually MEAN anything.

Oh, I don't really care about whether you and Cali_Dem agree. It is an asinine way to determine the correctness of something.

But anyway, for the time being, this OP is ONLY about the term "genocide", "ethnic cleansing" and "final solution". It is and always will be full of deep and bullshit.

[Scootaloo]

21. Yes, your OP will always be full of bullshit Bonobo

1) Outrage at the killing of Palestinians is not anti-Jewish, and it's fucking grotesque that you choose to read it so. Your eagerness to exploit Jews as cover for your shitty opinions is almost as bad.

2) There is no better word for what israel is doing to Palestine. You have demurred to conjure up an alternative. "Genocide" fits. it has nothing to do with "Jews," and no matter how much you try, and try, and try, it never will be - it's about what is happening to the Palestinians. It would be just as bad if Israel were run by Lutheran Swedes doing this to palestine.

3) I've looked at "my own fucking country" lots, and have criticized it plenty. Are you really going to argue that Bush exonerates Bibi, that iraq makes gaza okay? don't tell me you have "empathy" when the core of your argument is "two wrongs make a right."

4) There is no "Gaza Government," there is a Palestinian government. And amazingly, Likud's party charter is no different from Hamas'; in this regard, in that it vows that there will never be an Arab state west of the Jordan. Netanyahu has used this adventure as a linchpin in his declaration that Israel will never release the west bank. All while reducing the length and breadth of Gaza to bloodstained rubble. so you tell me. between Hamas' calls, and Israel's, which do you think is worth more of my attention? The one ineffectively slingshotting pipes, or the one eradicating half a fucking city?

[Bonobo]

22. I believe I said "massacre" is more appropriate.

Got a problem with that?

As far as the rest of you personal screed against me, I have said nothing in defense of the Gaza action.

Only that people that use the word "genocide" are just derps with no sense of reality and, perhaps even, a latent anti-semitic thing going on that they really haven't looked at.

Why do I say that? Cause it isn't genocide unless genocide just means whatever it is you want ti to mean.

It's ridiculous. And all your bloodstained language and personal diatribes aren't going to make the word "genocide" fit any better.

[frylock]

24. almost like offering your dog table scraps..

how wonderfully benevolent.

[JI7]

9. Arabs who are israeli citizens are not allowed to purchase land ?

[Scootaloo]

15. 13% of Israel's land is "owned" by the JNF, which prohibits sale or rental to non-Jews

The Israel Land Administration - which administers land either independently or jointly with the JNF - is barred from law from such discrimination, but the number of lawsuits and complaints suggests that, as is often the case, the Israel High Court is simply ignored. There's a law on the books that says that if the ILA tenders land from the JNF to a non-Jew, Israel owes the JNF money in value with that land. There's in fact been a whole mess of rulings nad controversies about how the JNF and ILA are wrapped up tight together and persist in the discrimination against Arab bids for state lands. Also the whole "State of Israel funding the JNF and passing land back and forth" issue... It's only a conflict of interests if you think non-Jewish Israelis should have equal treatment under the law, see?

There's also the problem that Arab communities are only reflected in 7% of Israel's budget, which puts severe restrictions on expansion and infrastructure of these communities, which comes out pretty much the same as outright denying them expansion.

Again, it's like blacks in the 30's. Just having the rights on paper, oesn't mean those rights can be exercised, or amount to anything on the occasions where they are exercised.

[JI7]

16. i don't know much about it but i can see the comparison to minorities in the US

who were denied housing for decades and still have a tougher time with it.

minorities who didn't benefit from the govt assistance programs in purchasing a home.

[Douglas Carpenter]

11. here,,here

[Comrade Grumpy]

5. Apologists for this ongoing massacre make me want to puke.

[Bonobo]

8. When you find one, go puke then. nt

[Comrade Grumpy]

20. I don't have to go far. n/t

[Roy Serohz]

23. Don't be such a Bibi!