My only post on the ME crisis

[nadinbrzezinski]

Meet the future soldiers.



And the future fighters.

?ve=1&tl=1

This will go on until their parents find a way to break the cycle, a cycle that is much older than any of us.

Both sides are committing war crimes, I speak as a former humanitarian worker who actually had to live under those rules and understands how damn easy it is to lose that neutrality.

It is easy to forget that children, like always, bear the brunt. Or not understand why we are at this point. Some in Israel would love to kill every man, woman and child in Gaza. They are not human you see. Likewise for Hamas, if they could, the med would be red from Jewish blood.

Until you all understand this, all your wonderful one side is evil will continue to sound hollow.

Evil acts are being committed. Yes, one side has more power, it's been asymmetrical like forever. The tunnels are real, the fighters who have gone into them are the parents of this kids. The planes and bombs are real, they are the parents of those children. Remember those photos. You are seeing the future soldiers and fighters, who will hate each other because you know what, them evil ones took mommy and daddy, and dropped bombs on us, and made us run, and scared us. Children in Gaza and Ashkelon have a right to live care free.

Those kids, all of them, will have nightmares, real nightmares. They are learning to see the other as distant monsters.

I expect very snarky, in some cases very hateful responses, why this is my only post on the issue. But yesterday I deleted a post pointing out that yes, munitions were placed in a UN school. That is just as much of a war crime as dropping bombs on a market. It does not matter who has more or less power. A war crime is a war crime.

I only talk from actual knowledge in applying the Conventions, not what I read in a book and losing neutrality this fast after one of my crews was cowed by an army officer. I would think I have a tad of a clue. But if you do nothing else today, study those photos. Those are the next wave of active combatants in this endless cycle.

Oh and if Israel feels it's about to lose, they will enact MAD. It is called the Samson Option, google it up.

[hlthe2b]

1. Mutually Assured Destruction...

indeed

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. It is a cycle

And those who want to break it are blamed by their respective radicals and hated.

[Scuba]

2. Rec. Thanks nadin.

[RKP5637]

3. Generational hatred through learned/experienced behavior, the worst kind and so

illogical in the big picture. Excellent post, as always!

[nadinbrzezinski]

6. It will of on until something breaks it

I am at a loss as to what that would be right now

[Tetris_Iguana]

5. Thank you for this refreshing cup of sanity.

[nadinbrzezinski]

8. You welcome

[Spider Jerusalem]

7. Your deleted post contained other info that's not strictly accurate

While human rights organizations haven’t yet addressed “human shields” allegations in the ongoing round of Israel-Gaza violence, they did after the 2009 round when Israel killed at least 773 Palestinian civilians, compared to three Israeli civilian casualties (a ratio of 257:1), and used the same “human shields” argument to deflect responsibility for those deaths. When the dust settled, Amnesty International investigated the matter and concluded that there was “no evidence that [Palestinian] rockets were launched from residential houses or buildings while civilians were in these buildings.” More attention-worthy was the report’s note that,

in the cases of [Israeli] precision missiles or tank shells which killed [Palestinian] civilians in their homes, no fighters were present in the houses that were struck and Amnesty International delegates found no indication that there had been any armed confrontations or other military activity in the immediate vicinity at the time of the attack.

Israel’s Use of Human Shields

By contrast, the same report found that “in several cases Israeli soldiers also used [Palestinian] civilians, including children, as ‘human shields’.” Going back in time just a little further to put this into context is important: when the Israeli Supreme Court ruled in 2005 that the Israeli military had to stop using Palestinian civilians as human shields, the Israeli “defense” establishment objected to the ruling. The appeal against the ruling failed, and the practice remains technically illegal, but Israel implicitly encourages it to continue by offering an “inadequate … slap on the wrist,” as Human Rights Watch put it, to Israeli soldiers caught using this reprehensible tactic.

This reveals two important things: the first is the moral hypocrisy and chutzpah on display when Israel ignores its own use of human shields as it accuses its enemies of using them. The second is Israel’s self-contradicting logic: If Palestinian militants had such disregard for Palestinian civilian lives, why was the Israeli military so invested in maintaining the ability to use Palestinians as shields? The fact that the Israeli army wants to use Palestinian human shields actually proves that they believe Palestinian militants prefer not to endanger their own civilians.

http://www.salon.com/2014/07/18/israels_military_has_no_moral_superiority_and_its_time_the_media_covered_gaza_fairly/

And Israel is under no threat of "losing" to the Palestinians, except in the court of world opinion; they're the only nuclear-armed state in the Middle East, no-one is going to attack them. And there are "war crimes", but Israel is committing them; international law doesn't actually recognise non-state actors as capable of committing war crimes (see the Rome Statute...to which Israel is not a party).

[nadinbrzezinski]

9. I deleted a post reporting munitions in a UNWRA

School, go argue with the UN on that ok.

http://af.reuters.com/article/egyptNews/idAFL6N0Q45TO20140729

I also deleted one where we have had extra judicial executions, some think these people protested Hamas, they were accused of spying. For Israel

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20130820/ml-palestinians-gaza-executions/?utm_hp_ref=green&ir=green

As to use of human shields, that charge is standard in modern warfare. It is like inevitable.

But thanks for the snark. I will not delete this one, but will not get into discussions of who is the evil one here. There is plenty on all sides in an active conflict.

Oh and one last thing, I find it curious how you dealt with nothing on the OP.

[Spider Jerusalem]

12. You also said "Hamas is using human shields"

which the UN report on the last conflict found no evidence of; the IDF on the other hand did appeal the Israeli high court decision barring them from using human shields and have indeed continued the practice; this is a matter of record.

NB that I didn't say anything about the munitions, although it's still not a war crime because only state actors are liable for prosecution for such under international law; "war crimes" are breaches of the Geneva Convention, to which non-state actors are not and may not be party. Israel is a state actor and signatory of the Geneva Conventions.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. Well, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this

Won't we.

Regarding non state actors, Hamas is now the head of government. You wrap that one.

Have an excellent day

[Spider Jerusalem]

15. Palestine is an officially recognised state, now, is it?

Since when, exactly? I must have missed that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. You missed the government is recognized as the legal authority

With elections and everything.

I am sorry you did. I am also proof positive you missed Israel pulling out oh five years ago.

I am not going to argue with you. I am not interested in the size of the chorus on the head of that pin. You might as well have a conversation with yourself. We are pretty much done.

[Spider Jerusalem]

19. That doesn't make them a state actor.

And Israel is maintaining a blockade of Gaza and controls land, air and sea access. Under international law, this makes Israel an occupying power, pursuant to the definitions of such in the Hague and Geneva Conventions; Gaza is under Israeli occupation, regardless of whether they have troops there. Israel is RECOGNISED as the occupying power by the UN.

As the saying goes, you're entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts.

[nadinbrzezinski]

20. Yup, why the Palestinian Red Crescent is recognized as a national Society

And was condemned five years ago by the ICRC.

As you said, you are entitled to your opinion, not your own facts.

By the by, the Palestinian Authority has now observer status in the UN and Israel did withdraw transferring powers to the PLA. As you said, facts. Israel still provides for electricity to both the territories and Gaza as part of the withdrawal agreement, which included, no more rocket attacks and no more terrorism activities.

But please proceed, this is my last word to you on this. I wish, seriously, it was as simple as you wish to make it. Because it is not.

[Hugabear]

25. 134 nations recognize Palestine as a state

There are also 32 UN countries that do not recognize Israel as a state.

[nadinbrzezinski]

56. I was stuck in the first seven

The first three are the critical threshold under International law iirc. When that happened, Israel was pissed. Nicaragua was among the first ones, Israel recalled the ambassador this fast. Relations, iirc, have been rather frosty since

[Spider Jerusalem]

33. It was your last word two posts ago?

Sorry, but you're still very shockingly wrong. Palestine is not a state in any meaningful sense of that term as it is construed under international law. If it were, Israeli actions with regard to Palestinian territory would constitute a legitimate casus belli. Gaza is recognised as Israeli-occupied, under international law...which also recognises the right of resistance of occupied peoples (Geneva convention, again). I never said it was simple, no, but most of the blame lies squarely with Israel.

[Hugabear]

58. 134 nations recognize Palestine as a state

A majority of UN countries recognize Palestine as a bonafide state.

Again, just because the US and Israel don't recognize Palestine doesn't mean that it isn't a legitimate state.

[Chathamization]

50. They’re a state when it’s convenient; they’re not when it’s inconvenient. Just like the land is

Palestinian when someone mentions citizenship, but Israeli when someone mentions the settlements. When such blatant hypocrisy is the norm, it’s no surprise that people will try arguments like “They’re making us kill all these civilians. You can see how much they don’t care about life by seeing how many civilians they make us kill.”

[nadinbrzezinski]

57. Except that under International Law it is a state

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine#/image/File alestine_recognition_only.svg

[Chathamization]

59. Then the US and Israel need to recognize it as one. N/T

[nadinbrzezinski]

61. 34 states refuse to recognize Israel

So I don't expect it. Who you recognize is very political. Why the Arab League mostly refuses, and Israel had that as a requirement for Camp David, all the way to Oslo.

That said, mutual recognition might be a good, solid, first step in those kids just doing their three very boring years of army service, on both sides.

So I hope one of these decades they will be tired enough of this shit and mutually recognize each other.

[Chathamization]

62. So once more, they’re a state when it’s convenient; they’re not when it’s inconvenient.

Thanks for yet another example.

[Hugabear]

64. What he's trying to tell you is that both Israel and Palestine are recognized as states

You don't have to have recognition from 100% of UN countries to be considered as a state. If that were the case, then Armenia, Kosovo, Cyprus, China, South Korea, and North Korea would not be valid states.

[nadinbrzezinski]

69. Under the 1933 Montevideo Convention

You need three states to recognize a new one for that state to be recognized as one under international law.

The US recognizing Palestine, or Saudi Arabia recognizing Israel, or these two recognizing each other, include things like exchange of ambassadors and bilateral treaties.

Both are states. Some recognize both, some recognize just one. It is not that complicated.

But Palestine, which pissed the US, has now State Observer Status in the UN General Assembly.

[Hugabear]

24. Palestine is a recognized state

As of last year, 134 nations recognized Palestine as a state. Just because the US and Israel don't recognize Palestine as a state, doesn't mean that it is any less a state. Palestine also holds an non-member observer state status in the UN, the same as the Vatican.

[azurnoir]

30. your HuffPo is not about extra judicial killings its about the execution of a confessed child killer

the one you had last night was about an incident from Pillar of Cloud in November of 2012 where 6 convicted collaborators were publicly executed, not defending just pointing out fact

your link

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20130820/ml-palestinians-gaza-executions/?utm_hp_ref=green&ir=green

also with all due respect to claim Israel will use the Samson option that is nuke Gaza is almost silly Israel is not suicidal, would they use it against a Hamas ally that is Iran who has renewed support of Hamas or possibly Qatar, the better question is does Israel have the means

also true UNRWA has found rockets stored in 3 schools now all 3 were vacant buildings

[nadinbrzezinski]

37. I am sorry for giving you the wrong link

Here. Some links

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-said-to-kill-over-30-suspected-collaborators-with-israel/


http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/regions/middle-east/israel-and-palestine/121120/israel-israeli-spies-gaza-lynch-mob-hamas-corpse-execution

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/hamas-victim-dragged-streets-collaborator-widow-article-1.1208004

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/01/judicial-execution-street.html

I hope these will be sufficient, especially one from a well respected Palestinian Human Rights Activist.

[azurnoir]

43. the second and third are from the same 2012 incident the forth is no longer availible

and may not have depict what you insinuate as this is the next paragraph

Extra-judicial execution on Gaza street
Kate on January 20, 2014 1

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Extra-judicial execution

VIDEO: Islamic Jihad militant eliminated by IAF while riding a bike
19 Jan — Video shows blast which Gaza sources say was result of IDF’s Sunday airstrike on Gaza, in retaliation for rocket fire on Israel’s south [note that this is in a public street, with other vehicles and pedestrians nearby]

the ToI link is questionable at best it claims

Unnamed Palestinian security sources in Gaza told Palestine Press News Agency that Hamas has managed to apprehend dozens of suspected spies in the northern neighborhood of Shejaiya — which saw heavy fighting with the IDF last week — and summarily executed them following a short investigation. The sources said that many of the suspects were caught with weapons, telephones, and SIM cards from the Israeli cell provider Orange

.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-said-to-kill-over-30-suspected-collaborators-with-israel/#ixzz38z14aA81

and oh just for fun these claimed killings supposedly took place in Shejaiya the neighborhood where close to 100 people died in a much condemned Israeli attack in the wee hours of July 20

[nadinbrzezinski]

48. And this is why I do not bother with the subject

Exhibit B

[U4ikLefty]

70. You don't like your lies & distortions to be challenged....poor baby!!!!

Just admit you support Israel over Palestine and this is an attempt to give the "both sides do it" argument.

[nadinbrzezinski]

73. I am supporting neither

I want the cycle to stop.

I realize this is way too complex for you.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

10. Welcome back, nadin. A rec from me because your opinion matters as much as anyone's. nt

[closeupready]

11. I'm not sure what your point is, or why this thread was necessary.

War is hell, we get it. The Israelis will defend themselves. We all know that. The Palestinians will terrorize in response to these lates hostilities, check.

??? Honestly confused what your point is.

[malokvale77]

103. So...

as far as Israel goes, you define it as defending themselves. Palestinians on the other hand are terrorists in response.

Why do innocents always suffer the misdeeds of governments?

It all sounds like an eye for an eye, and therefore BS.

[closeupready]

105. No, I was trying to interpret Nadine's opening post.

It doesn't seem to have a purpose, which is why I asked what her point here was. She declined to respond, so I still have no idea what her point here was.

[malokvale77]

106. The Sampson Option...

refers to blackmailing with the use of the nuclear option to get ones way.

I don't think she is taking sides, just stating Israels mindset. If we lose, everybody loses. It is a mad man mindset.

In other words, whole destruction.

[MineralMan]

13. I can't imagine that this will be your only post on the subject.

I'll wait to see.

The conflict continues, as it has since Old Testament times. I do not see an end to it, and believe the United States should play no role whatsoever in supporting any side in the conflict or in any conflicts in the Middle East. I have held that view since I was able to form an opinion on the issue in the mid-60s.

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. The support is not about Israel

But a strategic strip of land. Oh and access to the port of Haifa.

Yes, I am that cynical. If that land was held by Martians, by golly we would support Martians. It is the exact same reason why Putin cannot let go of Syria, again, port, Eastern Med.

There is an excellent you tube video that sums the conflict very well...I'll see if I can find it

As to this being my only post, trust me, I have no interest in arguing over the chorus of angels on the head of a pin. People want simple answers, this is the closest to a simple one you can get, and still is pretty grayish. I just wanted to remind people that he's evil, no, he's evil, will not break the cycle.

Here

http://vimeo.com/50531435

[mcar]

22. That is an amazing video Nadin

Tells the whole sad story in its depressing reality.

[calimary]

27. Wow. Pretty well boils it down.

One reason why I find myself throwing up my hands on this. It's a problem that doesn't seem to have a satisfactory solution. Seems to me it might be time to stop squandering so much money and so many lives on it. Since we'll all be doing the same damn thing tomorrow, and the day after that...

and the day after that...

and the day after that...

and the day after that...

and the day after that...

and the day after that...

and the day after that...

and the day after that...

and the day after that...

[tblue37]

94. It reminds me of the "Troubles" in Ireland and the way the violence was

encouraged by the provision of arms, money, and political support to both sides by well-meaning but blind partisans here in the US.

[nadinbrzezinski]

101. I was thinking about that over night

The similarities are there. But it is worst. During the troubles it was not superpowers feeding it.

The US did not support Israel from the git go. We just did not. The young state was a socialist state and the Cold War....but France did.

On the other side the Russians did, especially after the Russian revolution that brought Nasser to power and formed the United Arab Republic (Egypt, Jordan, Syria). The Russians supported the UAR with weapons, advisors, technical assistance, they also encouraged going after Israel, a strategic sliver of land. The UAR came slightly after Suez by the way. That is where we really took off to the races.

Fast forward to the Suez crisis of 1956, France was not happy. It's not about their client state of Israel, they are annoyed at the Brits, a lot is in the background between De Gaulle and the British high command. It goes to WW 2 and DeGaulle felt the allies always treated him like a third fiddle, which to be honest, they did. Some historians think good ol' Charles wanted to play, that simple. But the Brits did not want to share. So soon after the French slowed down their help of the young Jewish state. They took their anger on the ones they could. So they looked at DC.

That did not become much of a relationship until 1967. It is the Cold War and Israel is Red.

Fast forward to Camp David. The UAR is long gone and as part of the agreement we arm both sides. Israel has Merkavas now capable of knocking out Abrams. That should worry Americans, in fact DOD raised that issue, but they are good soldiers.

Now Israel has extensive agreements with both India and China. (I know, nobody reports on this crap) because Israel sees the writing in the wall. It started well before Obama became President. In fact, it happened during the early phase of the misadventure in Iraq. Ok, that is when it became obvious. They are survivors, but if they lose the US well, there is China.

So yes, it has some similarities. The stakes in the game are geopolitical though.

[Throd]

32. Great video! Thanks for posting it.

[ballyhoo]

46. Man, what a video! I have a hunch that

final figure may not have to wait much longer.

[nadinbrzezinski]

54. Somebody posted it the other day

And I went, pretty accurate

[ballyhoo]

63. Yes. Well, thanks for posting it. I'll spread

it around to all the sites I go to. I hope whoever, whatever, has the land after the last character does a better job of minding it and doesn't have so many juries.

[tblue37]

93. Wow, Nadin--thanks for providing that video. nt

[nadinbrzezinski]

96. You welcome

[Buns_of_Fire]

34. As far as not supporting any side, perhaps our government feels it has no other option.

I took nadin's advice and Googled "Sampson Option." I read through the Wikipedia article, which was depressing enough, but this one paragraph chilled me to the bone:

In the 1973 Yom Kippur War, Arab forces were overwhelming Israeli forces and Prime Minister Golda Meir authorized a nuclear alert and ordered 13 atomic bombs be readied for use by missiles and aircraft. The Israeli Ambassador warned President Nixon of "very serious conclusions" if the United States did not airlift supplies. Nixon complied. This is seen by some commentators on the subject as the first threat of the use of the Samson Option. (bold mine)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson_Option

It would explain why Israel can thumb its nose at the world with impunity, and why the US feels compelled to support whatever they do. Basically, if the article is correct (and that paragraph above is amply footnoted with references to Hersh and others), it's almost like we're being blackmailed with the unspoken threat of another Masada where we'd all be forced to come along for the ride.

Just a thought.

[MineralMan]

35. Personally, I have no information on the current state of such things.

It does not alter my opinion that we should stay the heck out of all Middle East disputes. By that I mean absolutely no military aid to anyone in that region, and a policy of trying to convince other powers to follow the same policy. I don't expect that to happen, but that is what I want to happen.

Starve the region of weapons and fighting will de-escalate, in my opinion, as long as all major powers refused to supply arms or provide military aid. It's a difficult proposition, but I believe that is the only thing that will work. But, I believe the U.S. should act unilaterally to implement that policy and stick to it.

[BobbyBoring]

40. I'm 100 percent in agreement

If it wasn't for that dirty 3 letter word, I think we would stay out of it.

[MineralMan]

41. What three-letter word is that?

I have no idea what word you mean.

[delphi72]

47. He's talking about oil.

Which, when used in reference to the US "wanting" or "needing" that oil is a statement of ignorance. Th eUS does not use that oil. 95% of it goes to Asia and the subcontinent. That oil keeps the global economic engine running. If its abundance dries up through international machinations of a rogue state or rogue nation taking control (reqad: Iran and Hormuz), the US would not miss any oil, but strategic and important parts of the world would - which would beget a global depression heretofor unseen.

When the global economic engine runs on oil, unless you want to see hundreds of millions of people starve around the world and war across 2/3rds of the planet, you'd better make sure that oil flows.

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. That is the other reason

And that place is, has been, strategic for ever

[Buns_of_Fire]

42. I couldn't agree more. But that makes too much sense to ever be implemented.

Besides, there's too much money to be made for the MIC by supplying both sides and maintaining a proper balance of terror.

[tblue37]

95. But we won't--because oil.

On edit: And because of enormous pressure on politicians here at home, who are afraid to cross powerful lobbies and annoy single-issue voters.

[malokvale77]

104. I do not agree with you on many subjects...

but on this I do whole-heartily. With the exception of humanitarian aid, I would love for the US to just say no.

I would like to see some of that money spent right here, on our own humane efforts.

I do have information on the current state of things here, per my job. Suffering with no relief in sight. The war machine is sucking up all the resources.

[nadinbrzezinski]

38. In the timeline

Last edited Wed Jul 30, 2014, 04:28 PM - Edit history (1)

Dimona was not yet operational.

But I am going purely from memory. These days, that is one reason why Qatar and Ryahd always get involved. There is no love lost...

That said, the movie (and novel) the Sum of All Fears played exactly with that. Watch the opening scene.

[Buns_of_Fire]

44. Thank you. I'll check it out.

For some reason the movie scene that ran through my mind was the end of Dr. Strangelove.

P.S. I Googled Dimona (another term I was unaware of), and read about the plant, its age, the threats by Hamas to target it (!) and the possible consequences, and have now decided I should probably just spend the rest of the day back in bed huddled under blankets.

[BainsBane]

17. For some reason, I read ME as

me, as in you.

[GeorgeGist]

21. The Samson option ...

sounds like the plan of a spiteful brat.

[TheKentuckian]

36. What do you think having nuclear arms is about? MAD is backed into the cake.

[AnalystInParadise]

97. Or of a nation

not willing to be pushed into ovens again. YMMV....

[bigtree]

23. no snark

rec

Thank you for the thread and your informed and experienced *perspective.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. You think I have made up my ten years as a medic for an actual NGO

That actually dealt with this day in and day out? Or the fact that I know how easy it is to lose that neutrality? When one of my crews got an armed (injured) Lt into the back of the clearly marked ambulance with his side arm and battle rifle, we were no longer neutral. We got there later...boy was I pissed!!!!

I made a show of returning those two items to his Colonel. When the round went through the ambulance we used to drive him to the hospital we were no longer neutral, thank you very much. Charges, due to that mistake by scared shitless young medics were never filed against the sniper. Oh there were charges, but not for shooting at a clearly marked ambulance.

That happened in a fairly low intensity conflict, nothing like this one.

Oh kids went to remedial class and I did lodge a pretty official complaint with the military zone commander and his legal office, with copies to Geneva and Mexico City.

You are reading words...I know what those words mean. A war crime, is a war crime, is a war crime. It matters little if you are the most powerful nation in the world (Abu Graib comes to mind) or a member of a unit storing your bombs in a vacant facility that is neutral otherwise anywhere in the world. You do indeed risk the other side bombing other equal facilities, because quite frankly, you and me have no way to know what their intel service thinks there is in that facility. And I doubt they will tell us if we ask either.

Nor does that mean Israel has not targeted civilians m'kay. In fact, both sides have. Both sides have continued to do such.

Oh and most war crimes will never, ever like never, be prosecuted. It's not as if there is a war crime cop issuing tickets.

And when they are...yeehaw, the dust came off the Rios Mont file for genocide...oh he is too old and cannot really serve time, bad, bad Rios Mont, don't ever do that again! (That be Guatemala, the 1980s and the Maya Genocide. I actually debriefed one of his victims...I am sure that kid, now adult, is really impressed with ladino justice, not. Suffice to say, I was pissed he was not given one day behind bars.)

So it is what it is.

Why this is the only OP I will post on this. Quite frankly, I would prefer the wall and banging my head on it. And yes, mine is an informed perspective.

[bigtree]

51. I appreciate that

. . .you just remember and, hopefully, recognize, Nadin, that many of us have our own life experiences (which comprise more than words) that we see absolutely no need to publicize or wear on our sleeve here at DU for people to digest or pick apart.

I would expect that you would feel secure in your own life experiences to respect that your own perspective cannot possibly encompass or overshadow those of all others who respond to you. I think it's best to assume that folks here have enough experience or information to at least represent the things they write with accuracy and respect for differing views.

I don't think you need a whole host of qualifications to include that consideration in your debates and discussions here.

[nadinbrzezinski]

53. Why I said this is the only OP on this

Angel chorus on heads of pins are not my thing.

As to experience...yes, when people start screaming war crimes and only pointing at one side, it matters if you actually have experience.

But I will let the rest of you continue to discuss the size of the chorus.

[bigtree]

60. fair enough

. . . I would note, however, that the safety of Israel's civilians is paramount in the expressions from our legislators and pols - while the blame and responsibility for those caught and held in the way of Israel's targets is being placed almost singularly in the hands of Hamas - and, amazingly in the hands of the Palestinians themselves.

I would think that fact would allow more consideration for a focus on the side of the Palestinians from those protesting the carnage, if only to compensate for the reality of the uneven consideration which is afforded the two sides of this conflict by those charged in our government with aiding or responding to the conflict.

I don't take the view that the violations of humanitarian law by one side negate responsibility on the other. In the case of the present conflict, there is a clear need for representation of the plight of the disproportionate number of civilians killed and maimed by Israeli attacks, if only because those concerns are being disproportionately ignored by our government officials and pols in favor of not only concern for Israel's citizenry's well-being, but also the level of responsibility expressed for Israel's role in initiating or continuing the violent attacks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

66. The video embedded in that response to mm

Will explain to you my cynicism.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5312275

As to the response of our political class...that sub thread will explain it too. If these were Martians, rah, rah for the Martians!

My view is far more nuanced, both sides need to stop. Tit for tat will leave all dead and blind.

And the citizens on both sides have to figure out how to get rid of current leaders. I also understand this...because I have lived it with Mexico. Americans tend to be very insular and look at issues purely from the US perspective. Local politics are mostly ignored. Also the filter is, what is in this for us?

I understand why Israeli civilians are for these operations. First, media has gone into war time broadcasting. So there are certain things Channel four is not showing, or at the bottom of the broadcast. But they are tired. Camp David was supposed to lead to peace, and on and on and on. The withdrawal from Gaza was supposed to end terror attacks. It has not.

You know who Israelis blame for this? Labor. The left, those bloody traitors. Israeli youth is hardening in it's views. Those kids will be patrolling Rafa at the pace we are going.

On the other side, many in Gaza blame Hamas, who promised ponies and rainbows and infrastructure since Fatah really never delivered. Instead they got people who have invested like not in what they promised to deliver. So many in Gaza are pissed. But how do you protest when you might be charged with being an Israeli collaborator? Bullets come next.

Of course the idea of a unity government scares Tel Aviv, but that is neither here or there.

None of this has made it through our media bubble. Then again, after the lousy coverage of Mexican and Canadian politics, I expect nothing on the other side of the world.

So if you must know, I feel empathy for all the kids in this mess. The adults, I wish I could take their leaders, get them into a room, close the door and not open it until they agreed to break the cycle. More than that, they broke it. This he's evil, no, he's evil...will only dig that trench deeper. And as a daughter of a holocaust survivor this horrifies me to my core.

I also expect to go to my grave with the conflict still ongoing. Yup, that horrifically simple. And with some radicals on both sides, some American Jews and Arabs...it will get even more fun. (Yup, a group of loons intends to rebuild the temple, another group of loons intends to defend the Al Aqsah mosque, and get Jerusalem as their capital and still talk of killing all Jews)

[bigtree]

68. your thread

. . . your last word.

Thank you for your responses to me.

[TBF]

26. Given all of this -

and I have no reason to doubt any of what you say - then how do we proceed? The propaganda is thick on both sides especially with social media in everyone's face. But this conflict has also been brewing a long time.

I've favored a 2-state solution. Do you think Netanyahu would go for that? Would you agree with that or do you think something else would work better?

[nadinbrzezinski]

77. I really don't know

The two state sounds good in paper, it is even logical and de facto already exists.

Israel has in it's midst two bombs. One is an Arab population that will risk it's role as a Jewish state, and the second are the Haderim, that also threaten it's role as a secular state.

And that is without including the crazies in the US, for example, that want to rebuild the temple.

Then the Palestinians are tired, but their own radicals are also giving everybody and their sister the middle finger. I expect to die with this conflict still ongoing.

[TBF]

78. Perhaps so - it certainly has been going on as long as I can remember. nt

[xocet]

28. Sad, but true. n/t

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

29. "What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction

What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy? Gandhi

[heaven05]

31. I applaud you

and appreciate your well thought out and compassionate understanding of the insanity of continually perpetuating generational hate. Tis sad indeed.

[clarice]

39. VERY well said. nt

[cpwm17]

49. What's your real point?

Are you trying hard to find some gray area so to absolve Israel of its atrocities? The Palestinians are a captive and highly oppressed population. Are there any other populations in the world that has been so badly oppressed for so long?

Palestine isn't a state and cannot conduct aggressive war (or any war, by international law since it isn't a state) against its occupiers, because, by definition, Israel is already the aggressor since it is the one that is imprisoning the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. See what happens if a Palestinian tries to stray more than a few mile off its coast. He will be murdered by his captors.

They have no state. Israel doesn't have a right to conduct a massive collective punishment operation against a stateless population for a problem that Israel itself caused. This is just a continuation of the Palestinian Nakba, which has never ended.

These atrocities by Israel were motivated by the Palestinians' unity government started in early June. The Palestinians proposed a peaceful solution to their conflict with Israel. This is Netanyahu's big middle finger at the peace process. There is almost no gray area.

[nadinbrzezinski]

52. If you missed it

Forgive me for not being clear. And if you think I am justifying a thing, that is your issue.

Though I expected posts like yours.

[U4ikLefty]

65. Bullshit. You try to draw an equivalency where there is none.

The oppressor is Israel & the oppressed are the Palestinians. Both sides my ass!!! This lie is 100 times worse than saying that both Dems & Republicans are equally to blame for this country's woes. You ought to be ashamed but you side with Israel so I won't hold my breath.

Stick to talking about selling e-cigs to 4th graders.

[nadinbrzezinski]

72. Thank you, as expected

[nilesobek]

67. The Samson idea is a big loser for Israel as the European,

North American and Russian forces have enough nukes to glass that place forever 1000 times over. Did Israel learn their doctrines from GWB? We were attacked on 9/11 so Bush invaded a third, innocent country. That's what the "Samson Option," is. They are threatening to attack innocent countries if they start losing. We need to call that bluff and raise them.

I've yet to see evidence that Israel can take out Hamas even. When they get below ground and its mano vs mano, they don't fare as well as their set piece battles where they use overwhelming force.

[nadinbrzezinski]

71. If they ever launch

They are dead.

It is the exquisite non logic of MAD

[nilesobek]

74. Yeah, there is no doubt they could hurt the whole world.

It just seems a little crazy to me, to go after countries who have nothing to do with your demise. I want to tell you I admire you for your restraint in your views and postings on the whole issue. Its something I need to emulate and it comes across as a stark reminder that, really, for the most part, I don't have a horse in the race and am generally uninformed.

So, I'm going to back off this subject for a while. I've been working on some light side stuff that I'm going to post in the lounge in the coming weeks.

[nadinbrzezinski]

75. Hubby and I have a wry sense of humor

On the bright side the nuclear winter would slow down climate change.

[MFM008]

76. thoughtful

[BillZBubb]

79. Another false equivalency argument that covers for Israel.

Straight out of Frank Luntz's Israeli Project propaganda book.

[nadinbrzezinski]

80. Expected

Especially since I have not read Lunt'z work. I would not be surprised though if he was hired...he's good at what he does.

But hey, you tell me those kids will not be in the Army? I mean both sides.

I want both of them to have the most boring terms of service ever, peeling potatoes and doing kp. You tell me how you break the cycle.

And here is the big news flash for you. I am not taking sides, well except the kids, both in Rafa and Ashkelon.

[BillZBubb]

81. You may think you are not taking sides, but you have.

For instance, claiming "a war crime is a war crime" as some sort of ethical or moral equivalent is wrong. Hiding weapons in a school is a war crime. Dropping bombs on a school knowing civilians including children are there, because of hidden rockets, is a war crime. The second war crime far exceeds the first. Morally they are as far apart as night and day. The first has the potential to cause harm in the future, but poses no immediate threat. The second guarantees a lot of innocent civilian casualties.

Israel is the party with true military power. They have vastly superior firepower and resources. They are using those advantages far out of proportion to what justice and morality allow. They are destroying civilian population areas with no military justification. There is no equivalency here between Israel and the Gazans just as there is an overwhelming difference in the body count. Israel has become a terrorist state.

[nadinbrzezinski]

82. That my friend is a legal standard

Sorry, I used to do this shit for real.

Oh and as to symmetry, you expect that in war? It's not a bloody war game on the table top. Symmetry in war, bloody reality, only exists in tabletop games.


I see, you avoid the breaking of the cycle.

I think we can move on now.

[BillZBubb]

84. You want to break the cycle, call out Israel on the occupation and quit the false equivalency.

Until Israel moves back to the pre-1967 borders and treats the Palestinians as equals and with respect, the cycle will never be broken. Israel is the only party who can do that.

[nadinbrzezinski]

85. Nah, I will ask on both sides to break the cycle

Not just one. Because you know what? You need two to tango.

[NM_Birder]

91. THAT is pure truth !

And in that part of the world the dance floor is full !

[nadinbrzezinski]

92. Indeed...beyond full

[U4ikLefty]

98. Did you do that "shit" for 10 years?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022737557#post14

[nadinbrzezinski]

100. I know this is difficult to understand

But some of us have not had boring lives. Some have.

It might also be incredibly hard, but this laughing and pointing fingers is what bullies do, and it is about your needs, not mine.

Have a good day. Thank you for trying to turn something serious into a joke, but that is also what school yard bullies do.

[uppityperson]

83. A war crime is a war crime but not all crimes are equal.

But indeed, the next generation is learning an eye for an eye for an eye etc

[nadinbrzezinski]

86. That is a fair point

And one side has the tech to avoid most of the rockets. While discussing this, out of curiosity had an Israeli channel on the stream. Did you know sirens went off twenty minutes ago in central Israel? (17:00 my time) Most of those rockets will do like zero damage. But those are targeting civilians too.

When I read the blog, they are reporting on all the tit and tats, their rockets, ours and who's gotten hurt according to who. It is hardly as antiseptic as outs during the Iraq misadventure.

I also got to watch a fascinating discussion between a former Israeli official and the RT reporter...cue the Cold War. She literally was talking as if my calendar read 1975. Oh, and she was extremely well spoken and did point out a fact, POTUS is hated in the Arab street. That, I give it to her.

Good news...I got the vibe tat we might be close to the end. I hope vibe is correct, until next time. Which is what I want to break.

[magical thyme]

87. well it looks like they're already using their "Dahiya" option

The Dahiya doctrine is a military strategy put forth by the Israeli general Gadi Eizenkot that pertains to asymmetric warfare in an urban setting, in which the army deliberately targets civilian infrastructure, as a means of inducing suffering for the civilian population, thereby establishing deterrence.[1] The doctrine is named after a southern suburb in Beirut with large apartment buildings which were flattened by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) during the 2006 Lebanon War.[2] Israel has been accused of implementing the strategy during the Gaza War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine

[nadinbrzezinski]

88. The army are no saints

They lost their moral compass a while ago. (I would say sabra shatila timeline) but neither is the other side.

If the adults on both sides don't get a clue, the kids in those photos are the next generation.

I told Willy over a PM yesterday when I symbolically walked away from this. So did a good friend of mine who is Palestinian, and after we wanted to kill each other and learned to see each other as humans, we concluded in 1984 that we would be here. Both are coiled in a deadly embrace and nobody gives...I don't want to think about it.

As you probably noticed, not taking sides, just pointing out that both sides are raising the next generation.

The Israeli kids are too young to get it, they will in a couple of years. Funny it was one of the few group photos I could get, that was not behind an https site. The Palestinian kids are old enough, and that also took some work. There were photos of a single toddler over debris. But to make the point, I wanted group photos.

These are the precious ones that the pattern needs to be broken for. We don't...well, those kids will grow up to fight each other. We will be having this same conversation in 20 years.

[magical thyme]

89. Sorry, but I can't agree with you here. Hamas hadn't fired rockets for 18 or 19 months and it would

not matter one bit if they all laid down their arms and died. The Zionists have intended to drive the poor Arabs out completely since the 1800s. We unfortunately continue to enable them.

I am of the opinion that the UN should *never* have "given" the Zionists their own state in Israel. They've been stealing land ever since.


http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/origin.html
Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314.” Edward Said, “The Question of Palestine.”


“The aim of the Fund was ‘to redeem the land of Palestine as the inalienable possession of the Jewish people.’...As early as 1891, Zionist leader Ahad Ha’am wrote that the Arabs “understood very well what we were doing and what we were aiming at’... ‘We shall try to spirit the penniless population across the border by procuring employment for it in transit countries, while denying it employment in our own country... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly’...At various locations in northern Palestine Arab farmers refused to move from land the Fund purchased from absentee owners, and the Turkish authorities, at the Fund’s request, evicted them...

“Before the 20th century, most Jews in Palestine belonged to old Yishuv, or community, that had settled more for religious than for political reasons. There was little if any conflict between them and the Arab population. Tensions began after the first Zionist settlers arrived in the 1880’s...when purchased land from absentee Arab owners, leading to dispossession of the peasants who had cultivated it.” Don Peretz, “The Arab-Israeli Dispute.”

“Serfs they (the Jews) were in the lands of the Diaspora, and suddenly they find themselves in freedom ; and this change has awakened in them an inclination to despotism. They treat the Arabs with hostility and cruelty, deprive them of their rights, offend them without cause, and even boast of these deeds; and nobody among us opposes this despicable and dangerous inclination.” Zionist writer Ahad Ha’am, quoted in Sami Hadawi, “Bitter Harvest.”

[nadinbrzezinski]

90. Then we will have to disagree.

Have a good one. Will not bother trying even a cogent response. There is none. See you in 20 years for the time those kids have their go at it

[bobthedrummer]

102. K&R n/t