From His Cold Dead Hands: When Should Grandpa Give Up His Guns?

[SecularMotion]

Many Baby Boomers already dread “the talk” –- suggesting their aging parents surrender car keys –- but now two geriatric experts say another thorny, family question must be asked of some elderly folks.

Is it time to give up your gun?

In a recently published paper, the two physicians offer a five-point checklist meant to help caregivers assess whether firearms remain safe in the hands and homes of older Americans, particularly if the gun owners are exhibiting unclear thinking or depression.

“Just like with some (older) people, it’s not if you should stop driving, but when,” said Dr. Ellen M. Pinholt, a co-author and former chief of geriatric medicine at Walter Reed National Military Medical Center. “If we find some dementia present in a patient, it can be about when to lock up the weapon or whether we have the family take it away.

http://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/his-cold-dead-hands-when-should-grandpa-give-his-guns-n145501

[Warren Stupidity]

1. At least one has to renew a driver's license.

[Lurks Often]

10. Which is meaningless since renewing is a simple matter

of giving them money and getting a new picture taken in most states.

[Warren Stupidity]

14. Not all states.

http://www.claimsjournal.com/news/national/2012/09/19/213818.htm

However the point is that there is at least a checkpoint on renewal in that one has to actually be able to manage the renewal process. It ain't much.

[Lurks Often]

34. Different states, different rules

And once someone with dementia or Alzheimers is sent to the nursing home or assisted living facilty, the guns go to the family.

In the end, while people with dementia & Alzheimers shouldn't be allowed firearms, there is a clear process toward removing that right, namely taking them before a judge and having them declared mentally incomptent.

This is a typical drive by dump by the OP, who rarely sticks around to actually discuss the contents of the article and even more rarely appears to have any thoughts of his own on what he posts.

[safeinOhio]

35. Many of us like his post.

You should run a poll.

[safeinOhio]

37. THis post is in GD.

SOP does not seem clear on "who" is to "discuss", could mean replies. It is a lot like the clause in the 2nd Amendment, needs the SC to decide what "discuss" means.

In the mean time, this dead horse has been well beaten.

[Duckhunter935]

38. I agree the GD SOP

is different and the no guns part is never enforced so SM's posts are fine here. Normally if you post in a group you should discuss you post with others.

[safeinOhio]

46. Normally?

[Duckhunter935]

48. yep nt

[Lurks Often]

49. Go right ahead

On edit: I suspect the law would have to be very carefully written to make it through the majority of state legislatures and hold up to judicial scrutiny, especially when there is a process already in place to deal with those suffering from dementia and Alzheimer's, namely taking them before a judge and having them declared mentally incompetent.

[elleng]

26. Probably not.

Eye tests at least are required, for renewals, in many states.

[Duckhunter935]

28. not mine

and the one I had before I could do on the net and they would reuse the picture.

[Thinkingabout]

30. In Texas after a certain age it is required to go into DPS and it includes an eye test.

We can renew one time on line but the next time you are required to go in.

[Lurks Often]

33. Think it is going to vary from state to state

In CT, all you do is give them money and get a photo, don't even have to go to DMV, it can be done at the nearest AAA office

[RebelOne]

39. It is not a simple matter in my state of Georgia.

After the age of 65, a person must take an eye test to renew a driver's license. I am 75 and had passed the eye test in the past. Then when I had to renew my license in January of this year, I found I had cataracts. So I had to have cataract surgery in both eyes, but I passed the test even though I was 2 months late in getting my license. I really had to work hard to get my license this year and it is only good for 5 years. Well, next time I renew my license, I will be 80 years old, and I hope to still be here.

[Jenoch]

40. In Minnesota,

DLs are renewed every four years and eye tests are required by everyone. Even a 22 year old with no corrective lenses must take and pass an eye test.

[petronius]

44. I'll add California to the list: ours are every 5 years, and you can renew online, by

phone, or by mail as long as you have a clean record, are under 70, and didn't make your last two renewals by mail/phone/net. So as long as we're under 70, we can go 15 years without seeing the inside of the DMV...

[Jenoch]

47. So there are drivers in California

who have DLs with 14 year old photos? LEOs must love that.

[RebelOne]

54. Same here in Georgia as long as you are under 65.

After 65, the eye test is mandatory.

[beevul]

55. Is the car taken away if one doesn't? N/T

[Warren Stupidity]

56. No.

[beevul]

58. Your example seems a bit "apples and oranges" then. N/T

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

2. I'm fine with cold dead hands.

Make it so you can't 'inherit' firearms. When an owner dies, they're collected and melted down.

[Jenoch]

3. What other parts of the constitution do you wish to void?

[treestar]

6. This is not about the Constitution

It's about safety. No one says they don't have the legal right to the gun. They are talking about when it might become unsafe.

[Jenoch]

15. Are you ok with the confiscation of firearms

when the owner of the firearm dies?

[conservaphobe]

19. I'm more a proponent of an estate tax so burdensome

that the survivors would have to sell the guns to cash in on death.

[Jenoch]

52. It seems you would also be in favor of

estate taxes structured so that all family-owned small businesses would have to be sold by the heirs to pay estate taxes.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

8. Void? Probably just the second amendment.

Alter? The 10th would be a good one to update, as would the 4th, both to make them more explicit. The 10th to say that it's not about letting states 'opt out' of federal law, and the 4th to say that most of what the NSA and LEO are doing in secret goes against the 4th.

Or are you suggesting this is more 'takings' clause than 2a? In which case I'm good with updating that one as well.

[Jenoch]

16. Erich made a reference to an action that

would be constitutionally illegal. If people wish to make attempts to amend the constitution, of course there are ways to do that.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

18. Third person? You're responding to me, you can use second person.

And since you asked which parts of the Constitution I believe need changing, I told you.

The Constitution isn't Holy Writ, and the Founders weren't Gods. They EXPECTED it to be changed, and probably more drastically than it has been. They expected we'd have actual Constitutional Conventions to rewrite it to keep up with the times.

So yes, I think the second amendment needs drastically altered or even removed entirely, so that the course of action I suggest would be legal.

[Jenoch]

23. My intent was not to respond to you in that manner.

I'm using an iPhone, and had more than one person responding to the post I wrote to you, mistakes happen.

You do realize that if the 2nd Amendment were rewritten, and/or eliminated, it would not make the ownership of firearms universally illegall because 44 states have RKBA in their constitutions.

By the way, I understand the process of amending the U.S. Constitution. There are 27 amendments so far.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

27. Ah, I see. Your message posted under mine, but you were trying to post

under the other commenter. Fair enough.

I did know that some states did, but I'm rather surprised that the number is that high.

And I'm actually not against gun ownership - I just want it tightened up quite a bit, more along Swiss lines, possibly even requiring secure armouries that you check weapons in and out of when not in use, mandatory gun safes in home, scheduled recertifications, and mandatory liability insurance.

As to the amendment process, yes, that's one way to change the Constitution, but it's not the only way, only the only way we seem to be willing to do it. I'm assuming most people find a Constitutional Convention too scary to contemplate, especially as divided as the country is now.

[Jenoch]

43. The only way to actually change the constitution

is through the amendment process. There are court decisions that interpret the constitutions, but those can be reversed by another court ruling.

I live in Minnesota and we have a safe storage law for homes where minors live. Gyns must be disabled, locked up, and ammunition must be locked and stored separately.

[Warren Stupidity]

9. Well we voided the part that made african americans 3/5 of a person.

We also voided the part where state legislatures appointed senators.

There is plenty of stuff in the constitution that we haven't bothered voiding, we just sort of stopped paying much heed to it, like for example all the rest of the bill of rights except quartering soldiers.

[awoke_in_2003]

20. And we have voided

much of the first amendment. The Patriot Act voids at least 4 more.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

31. Actually I don't know that we would have to void it.

First, the 'right to bear arms' is given to living breathing humans, not to corpses.

Second, even if you look at the 'Takings' clause of the 5th amendment,

Private property shall not be taken for a public use, without just compensation.

It actually does say that you can take private property, you just have to give just compensation. So you take the guns, and give the market value in cash to the estate. The 'public use', is the public good of getting more guns out of circulation.

[randr]

29. I think we wrap their cold dead hands around their weapons

and bury them together

[randys1]

51. Yep

[samsingh]

4. according the nra and many gun lovers - never

[Paladin]

5. Oh, goodie---another issue to set off the gun obsessives. (nt)

[KT2000]

53. No - serious problem

I live in a town that has grown as a retirement community. The elderly are not living in a vacuum, some are glued to FOX and other RW media and they are angry and paranoid - to say nothing of possible mental issues.

A man up the street had gone "senile" and his wife got up one morning to see all his weapons piled on the dryer. The police came and they advised her to leave the house because there was nothing they could do about the weapons - he was not breaking the law and the courts had not declared him incompetent.

As the population ages, there will be more situations of geriatric mental issues and guns. We have to learn how to deal with it so people are safe.

[NightWatcher]

7. for grandpa, we removed the firing pins from his guns

He still got to see them on the wall or could take them out of the safe and admire them, but there was no way that an accident (aside from dropping on his toe) would cost anyone their life.

[Hekate]

13. An excellent and human solution. nt

[Jenoch]

17. I understand why you removed the firing pins,

however, if your grandfather ever got to the point of being agitated and LEO were called to his house, the fops would be unaware that the firing pins had been removed if he were holding one of the guns.

[enough]

11. During my father's last years with Alzheimer's Disease, I regularly followed the

caregiver forums at the Alzheimer's Association.

It was quite common for people there to relate hair-raising stories of their relatives with Alzheimer's creating dangerous situations with their guns. Paranoia, hostility, agitation, and intense irrational anger are extremely common symptoms of Alzheimer's/dementia. Add guns to that mix and you have a really bad situation. It's not just the danger to life and limb, but the intense levels of stress within the family created by the unwillingness to relinquish the guns for any reason.



BTW, the link for the absolutely invaluable Caregivers Forum is:

http://www.alzconnected.org/discussion.aspx?g=topics&f=151

There's a quick sign-up if you want to post on the boards, and well worth it. I could never have made it through those years with my father without that forum.

[etherealtruth]

12. I am grateful my elderly parents ...

... are as opposed to guns as I am!

[ileus]

21. for my brother and I it was when Dad started...

poking holes in everything in sight. Shooting into the dark outside his home and thinking everyone was out to get him.

We actually ended up giving him back a long gun that he had no way of using in his condition.

[LeftyMom]

22. Buy them a safe then change their pass code.

Good lord people, if you can't outsmart the doddering elderly...

[Nuclear Unicorn]

24. The same day they take his voter ID.

[ManiacJoe]

25. My family had the gun discussion at the same time we had the car discussion.

We eventually had to take away the car keys for Grandpa's safety. He was not so much a hazard to others as much as he might pull out in front of a log truck going by.

The gun issue was a relatively easy one in our case. The guns were already put away and not touched in years. Since I was the one who was going to inherit them any way, we went and collected them years ahead of time.

[Turbineguy]

32. I think we should take NRA guidance on this one.

In the interest of reducing the population.

On edit:

[Hoyt]

41. A lot of so-called responsible gun owners are too old, ill, on meds that alter judgement, etc.,

to handle them responsibly. Of course, a lot are too callous, as well.

We take car keys away from the elderly, ill, etc. Why not gunz and ammo?

[Iggo]

42. When he gives up his fear.

[jwirr]

45. I have dealt with this question in another situation. A friend knew her husband could not drive

safely anymore and asked how to handle it. I told her to take his car keys and switch them for keys that do not work. He can set in his car as long as he wants but it will not go anywhere.

With the guns I would advice letting him keep his guns just make sure he cannot get any ammo.

I am assuming that he can no longer leave home.

[Damansarajaya]

50. All my guns are already LOCKED behind steel.

And unloaded.

Anything else is an accident waiting to happen.

[PowerToThePeople]

57. The sooner the better. n/t