General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsFWIW, BBC Reporter Jon Donnison Doubled-Down Today On His Claims About The 3 Israeli Teens & Hamas
from Jon Donnison's twitter page:
Jon Donnison ?@JonDonnison 14h
When this is over, there remain a lot of unanswered questions about kidnapping and killing of three Israeli teenagers. #gaza
Jon Donnison @JonDonnison · 13h
The answer to what happened to 3 Israeli teens will come from speaking to Israeli security officers, not from listening to politicians.
Jon Donnison @JonDonnison · 4h
For those asking, I stick by 100% tweets regarding comments made to me by Israeli police spokes Mickey Rosenfeld. He said it. Period. 1/2
Jon Donnison @JonDonnison · 4h
And what's more I suspect what he said is common knowledge in Israeli intelligence circles. 2/2
related:
Turns Out Hamas Likely Didnt Kidnap and Kill the 3 Israeli Teens After All
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025292409
bigtree
(86,005 posts). . . someone other than myself
kicking
but it has been a very stressful time
bigtree
(86,005 posts)malaise
(269,157 posts)Watch and see.
enlightenment
(8,830 posts)I thank you, also.
devils chaplain
(602 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)bigtree
(86,005 posts). . .truth matters.
Well said, Comrade Grumpy.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)I think it's really immaterial who did the kidnapping and killing of those three teens. The killing of the teens precipitated the killing of the Palestinian, which in turn caused Hamas to start shooting rockets at a regular beat, which in turn caused Israel to crack down.
bigtree
(86,005 posts). . . if your narrative of events is true, then I suppose I could understand why you believe it's immaterial.
I have to say though, your chronology appears to leave out a few critical events; like Netanyahu's initial declaration to 'make Hamas pay.' Also there's no mention of the round-up of Palestinians which preceded the missile attack on the Hamas leader.
I'm inclined to expect more honesty and transparency from our ally than I am from a disparate faction of Palestinian leaders and splinter organizations - so it does matter to me that the Netanyahu government initially inflamed public opinion and sparked riots and unrest based on their leader's assignment of blame on Hamas.
Rather than begin a full debate on all of that here, though, and inviting a repetitious and draining recitation of events and details, perhaps you could enjoin with the folks hashing that out on the other thread.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)They weren't really going to do any crazy shit until Hamas released its daily rocket barrages. Now people will claim "Hamas is always shooting rockets." Yes, it is true, two a day is no big deal, and no, you're not going to be able to keep two a day of bottle rockets from being launched. So your idea that Hamas is a "desperate faction" is fine. When it's only two a day.
There were a total of 53 rockets launched in June of this year. By July 7th, after the Palestinian boy was found dead, 100 rockets a day fell on Israel. That means that there was a 50 fold increase in the "desperate factions." Mind you the Palestinian boy was killed July 2nd, there were protests in which people were hurt (missing from my timeline), then it escalated from there.
bigtree
(86,005 posts). . . if it was such an inconsequential question of the Israeli teens to the prime ministers decision to attack and invade Gaza, why did Netanyahu declare that he would present evidence of Hamas' responsibility for the killings of the teens to European leaders and others in June?
Knowing full well that the teens were already dead, Netanyahu ordered a 'search' for the teens which involved raids and arrests on the West Bank, resulting the deaths of at least four Palestinians by Israeli security forces, including an apparently mentally unstable man and a 14-year-old boy near Hebron.
Thousands of Israeli troops searched hundreds of locations in the West Bank and arrested more than 350 Palestinians, including some who were freed in a 2011 prisoner exchange for Hamas-kidnapped Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit.
here's a June 22 account:
Israel has conclusive evidence that Hamas is behind the June 12 kidnapping of three Israeli teenagers, and is passing that evidence on to several other countries before releasing it publicly, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said Sunday morning.
Netanyahu also said that Palestinian deaths that have occurred as a result of the ongoing Israeli operation in the West Bank to rescue the kidnapped teens were unintentional.
Israel has unequivocal proof that this is Hamas, Netanyahu said ahead of the weekly cabinet meeting in Jerusalem. We are sharing this proof and information to this effect with several countries. Soon this information will be made public.
The prime minister said that once it became known on the world stage that Hamas had initiated the kidnapping, previous remarks by Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas, in which he condemned the kidnapping, will be put to the test in practice. His remarks will be tested not only by actions to return the boys home but by his willingness to dissolve the unity government with Hamas, which abducted the youths and calls for the destruction of Israel.
Israeli officials have publicly stated that in addition to rescuing the teens, weakening Hamas and breaking up the Palestinian unity government are goals in the operation.
So, Josh, when viewing the chronicle of events in a proper order, it's clear that the kidnappings were used as pretext for Israeli military action against Palestinians, made even more egregious if you believe Jon Donnison's report that most everyone in the Israeli security circle knew well that these children were already dead and that Hamas was likely not even involved.
That's why it matters. I think you're trivializing this based on incomplete information. As I said, though, this is an exhausting debate which I would appreciate you continue with folks already engaged in that discussion on the other thread. Can you please respect that, at least as far as my further involvement in the discussion?
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Say all you want but that's the pretext they used.
bigtree
(86,005 posts)here's a reasonably written account by J.J. Goldberg at the Jewish Daily Forward:
____ Once the boys disappearance was known, troops began a massive, 18-day search-and-rescue operation, entering thousands of homes, arresting and interrogating hundreds of individuals, racing against the clock. Only on July 1, after the boys bodies were found, did the truth come out: The government had known almost from the beginning that the boys were dead. It maintained the fiction that it hoped to find them alive as a pretext to dismantle Hamas West Bank operations.
The initial evidence was the recording of victim Gilad Shaers desperate cellphone call to Moked 100, Israels 911. When the tape reached the security services the next morning neglected for hours by Moked 100 staff the teen was heard whispering Theyve kidnapped me (hatfu oti) followed by shouts of Heads down, then gunfire, two groans, more shots, then singing in Arabic. That evening searchers found the kidnappers abandoned, torched Hyundai, with eight bullet holes and the boys DNA. There was no doubt.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu immediately placed a gag order on the deaths. Journalists who heard rumors were told the Shin Bet wanted the gag order to aid the search. For public consumption, the official word was that Israel was acting on the assumption that theyre alive. It was, simply put, a lie.
Nor was that the only fib. It was clear from the beginning that the kidnappers werent acting on orders from Hamas leadership in Gaza or Damascus. Hamas Hebron branch more a crime family than a clandestine organization had a history of acting without the leaders knowledge, sometimes against their interests. Yet Netanyahu repeatedly insisted Hamas was responsible for the crime and would pay for it.
This put him in a ticklish position. His rhetoric raised expectations that after demolishing Hamas in the West Bank he would proceed to Gaza.
That declaration by the Israelis, led by Netanyahu, that the kidnappings (not the deaths that they reportedly already knew about but were covering up to advantage their raids and crackdown) should force Abbas to split from Hamas, was the most glaring indication that Netanyahu intended to use the teen's abduction in the most craven political manner imaginable.
It may seem no consequence to you, but to the occupied Palestinians, the raids and killings which PRECEDED any rocket attacks by either side, was provocation enough; deliberate and falsely orchestrated provocation, if you believe that Hamas was not responsible for the abductions.
I can see how ignoring Netanyahu's initial and immediate declaration that "Hamas will pay," and discounting the West Bank raids in which over 350 Palestinians were jailed and interrogated and several lost their lives would lead you to the conclusion that it was just rockets fired from Gaza which provided pretext.
However, the statements and actions of Netanyahu and other officials - knowing full well that the children were already dead and that Hamas was likely not involved - clearly illustrate the pretext used to initiate the subsequent military action; not just rockets fired, from either side. They also clearly illustrate the importance of what the Netanyahu government knew and when they knew it.
You initially asked, "does it matter?" When properly viewed, taking all of the events, statements, and actions into account, it most certainly does matter.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Period. I am not going to believe for an instance Israel is going to kill a thousand people over three people being killed. That is so absurd as to be preposterous. The actions are due to the 50 fold increase in attacks.
bigtree
(86,005 posts). . . you're ignoring and dismissing major events, statements, and actions to come to that conclusion.
It's all yours.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)And if you say Hamas has no control over them then Hamas should be decrying it. Lobbing rockets at the people blockaiding you is not going to lift the blockaide, continuing to lob rockets on a country attacking you isn't going to stop them attacking you.
Response to joshcryer (Reply #17)
bigtree This message was self-deleted by its author.
bigtree
(86,005 posts)kelliekat44
(7,759 posts)Check back and let me know if it is even mentioned on the Sunday morning talks shows. I can't bear to watch them.