Another perspective...Why In The World Does The American Left Give Hamas A Free Pass?

[one_voice]

Since the outbreak of the newest episode of violence between Israel and Hamas, I’ve been getting a lot of grief from some people who somehow expect me to take the side against Israel that a lot of the left has as well. I’m sorry, but I obviously didn’t get the memo that just because my beliefs tend to be more on the left side of the spectrum, that automatically means I have to jump on the “Israel is a monster” wagon.

Let’s get this straight right off the bat: I support the right of both Israel and a Palestinian state to exist – and it would be possible if both sides could stop being stubborn and realize a couple of hard facts.

1. Israel is not going to go anywhere, plain and simple. Ever since the Israeli government announced the formation of the State of Israel in 1948, they’ve been under attack from a number of terrorist organizations and Islamic states – and they’re still there. I know a lot of people say that there would be peace if Israel was dissolved, but that’s ridiculous both from a political and a logistical perspective.

2. The Palestinian people aren’t going anywhere either. As much as some rabidly anti-Palestinian individuals in Israel and elsewhere have expressed their support for wiping Gaza and everyone who lives there off the map, that would be a suicidal move by Israel – even if that’s what they actually wanted to do.

While what is happening in Gaza is tragic, would anyone in their right mind really stand by and allow daily rocket fire aimed at civilians to continue? Sure, the Iron Dome stops quite a few of these rockets, but it doesn’t stop all of them. A lot of people say that firing these rockets is an act of defiance against occupation, or a way of protesting the living conditions in Gaza. That’s complete rubbish. Throwing rocks at soldiers or burning tires is protesting, firing rockets at civilian population centers is trying to kill people, regardless of whether they’re shot down or not.

The response by Israel is excessive, that I can agree on. However, if you were dealing with a government (yes, Hamas is the elected government in Gaza) which insists on provoking attacks, wouldn’t you every once in awhile respond in a similar manner? On top of that, Hamas has zero regard for the lives of their own civilians, let alone civilians in Israel. If Hamas actually cared about the people it is supposed to represent, they would be busy using the limited concrete it receives to build infrastructure instead of using tunnels into Israel for launching attacks. If Hamas wanted to make Gaza a better place, they would concentrate on attracting tourism, finance and other investments instead of attacking Israel.

*snip*

http://www.forwardprogressives.com/world-american-left-give-hamas-free-pass/

[Tarheel_Dem]

1. Can I just say that this issue is exhausting? And at this point, there seem to be enough bad actors

on both sides, to just say screw it. The world has to be sick and tired of these people lobbing missiles at each other. Where are the adults in this?

I admire the hell out of John Kerry, but Jeezus Gawd. When will the moderates on both sides say ENOUGH?

[freshwest]

61. +1.

[maddezmom]

81. Well said

[LordGlenconner]

84. That's how I feel

I hate the death and destruction but I'm frankly sick of hearing about people fighting over the same arid shit hole, all of which is fueled by their belief in fucking fairy tales.

It's beyond dumb.

[bravenak]

2. Because Likud is no better than Hamas in many ways.

Read their charter and look at them. They are rabid right wingers who hate people who look different. They support increased settlement and are against a Palestinian state. When you have 2 bad guys, you usually support neither. We give Hamas no money as taxpayers, we give billions to the right wing Likud settler driving government.

Also, to date in this operation, the terrorist organization has targeted Israeli soldiers and only killed two civilians. The IDF has killed over five hundred innocent civilians including over a hundred children. I focus on the side that kills babies and pregnant women and Israel has been doing a good bit of that in the last couple of weeks. I cannot stand with child killers.

[Lee-Lee]

11. You can't stand with child killers, but attempted child killers are ok?

I don't get that logic.

Two parties try to shoot at each other. Does the fact that party A has a bulletproof vest that works fairly well in any way make the attempts to kill them (and indiscriminate rocket attacks target kids the same as anyone else).

Seems your only sticking point is that the Israelis have a better defense so they protect their kids better.

If Israel had a less effective defense and let some kids get killed that would change your mind? If so, maybe Hamas is on to something with the whole idea of using innocents to shield weapons in order to sway world opinion.....

[one_voice]

20. maybe Hamas is on to something with the whole idea of using innocents to shield weapons in order to

sway world opinion.....

Yep. Why does Hamas continue to fire rockets at Israel from civilian targets?

You have an organization that has continually said it wants the state of Israel wiped off the face of the earth, then they fire over 2000 rockets at civilian targets in 6 weeks...

rock meet hard place.

[frylock]

33. does Hamas have any military installations in Gaza?

[The Stranger]

41. That notion could be one of the sickest things I have ever read here.

These people have been subjugated for decades, to the point where all they can do is die, and you claim that they WANT to do that, as if it is evil for them simply to die.

Another question would be why monsters like Netanyahu, Sharon, the Irgun, the Sturn and all of their atrocities seem to get a free pass from some on the Left.

[eridani]

62. 2000 rockets and exactly one casualty. So where is the military front

--that Gazans should fight from that has no civilians? Can you point it out to us on a map?

[bravenak]

32. My problem is that i do not believe the right wing fanatical government of Israel anymore.

There were no rockets on the beach, but they shot missiles at the children playing soccer anyway. They said they 'misidentified' the children as Hamas. How many other people have they misidentified?

If a gunman was holding people hostage in Anchorage (my town) using a flame thrower (a man did rob a bank this way) would the cops drop a bomb on the building? No. They would send in a swat team.


You don't get to kill a hundred innocent children to get to a bad guy and not get considered a bad guy yourself. If you start acting like a criminal to get to a criminal, you are a criminal. Period. Full stop.


Killing civilians by the hundreds to make yourself safer makes you evil. You don't get safer, you make people despise you.

Anybody that kills a baby to get to a bad guy, is disgusting and inhumane. If a gunman holds a baby in front of him to shield him from the police is despicable. The cop that shoots the baby in the head deserves condemnation and prison.

[Throd]

3. Underdogma

Progressives tend to favor the weak against the powerful, even if the weak are pretty reprehensible too.

[Puzzledtraveller]

9. I think it is also the black/white dichotomy

If you are in support of one you must be in opposition to the other. As if it is impossible to both support the Palestinian people, without supporting Hamas and support the Israeli people without it implying de facto support for the Israeli government. IMO.

[H2O Man]

52. I agree.

The OP illustrates the dangers of shortcuts to meaningful thought.

[customerserviceguy]

55. It's the "playground fight" analogy

Whoever got beat up the most is the victim, and the other party is the perpetrator. Automatically.

[NuclearDem]

4. I don't.

I just hold a democracy to a higher standard than a terrorist organization.

[philosslayer]

77. Which is the democracy and which is the terrorist organization?

Hamas was elected by the Palestinians to govern after all.

[Maedhros]

5. I, for one, do not give Hamas a free pass.

I object to the American Government and media continually giving Israel a free pass.

[Puzzledtraveller]

6. Ostrich syndrome.

With a dash of denial.

[Swede Atlanta]

7. You are myopic.....

Let's rewind the film........

It is the late 1940's. The world is becoming aware of the atrocities of the Holocaust. There has already been a struggle by Zionists in what was then known as Palestine against the British. A UN Mandate creates the environment for the establishment of a Jewish state.

Palestinians who had been on the land for generations are forced from their lands and often into camps to make room for Jews because the world felt sorry for the Jews after the Holocaust. I am obviously simplifying but this is the general theme.

So Israel is established and the Palestinian people are basically left to lands surrounding the new state of Israel. Lands they had occupied have been seized by Zionists who had been in the fight and for those returning from the diaspora.

We are now 50+ years past the establishment of the modern day state of Israel. Young Palestinians see no hope. They expect to continue to be treated as 2nd class citizens and have essentially no real opportunity for the future. That is why militants can easily recruit them as suicide bombers. In that situation I would be ready to blow myself up and kill as many Israelis as possible. The more the merrier.

This conflict can NEVER be solved by continued bloodshed. I am a firm supported of the right of Israel to exist and defend itself. I oppose, however, their continued settlement building and crushing of the Palestinian people.

I don't disagree that Hamas should not be firing the rockets into Israel but I think Israel's response in terms of the number of dead is clear. Israel is now the aggressor and needs to stop. The U.S. should stop any and all military and other assistance to Israel FOREVER. We should also forbid any American Jews from sending money to Israel. If they want to support them there then move there. Israel would fall over in a matter of months without U.S. money.

Sorry but I am tired of Israel continuing to build settlements because the conservative Jews want a new block of houses. Stop, enough is enough.

[ieoeja]

22. Your second paragraph did not happen.

Very few Palestinians were forced off their land to make room for new immigrants. A few thousand at most.

Millions fled their land as the armies from six other nations invaded. Only once it became clear that Israel was not going to be destroyed did some decide they wanted to return. But the land owners (the Palestinians were share-croppers on land owned by others) made other arrangements after their earlier tenants were gone.

And the government of Israel did not want them back. Many of them did not merely flee to avoid the invading armies. Quite a large number of them supported those invading armies. Israel stopped them when they came with guns. They weren't going to turn around and welcome them (hopefully) empty handed.

A lot of them would probaby have been happier staying in Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Egypt anyway. However, those countries forced them to remain in the camps rather than take them in as new citizenry. Or help them establish their own country.

[tritsofme]

46. +1000 These are inconvenient facts for some people.

[Niceguy1]

53. finally someone actually

Brings facts to the discussion!


Kudos.

[geek tragedy]

8. Hamas is expected to do nothing but evil. Not so much a free pass

as it is like condemning cancer. What good is that going to do?

[justiceischeap]

10. For me it's less about Hamas than it is the Palestinian people that are innocent in all this

And just because "Hamas has zero regard for the lives of their own civilians" doesn't mean other people should as well. Yes, Hamas shoots rockets into Israel and this is bad but the reply from Israel is disproportionate, IMO. Just because you've got the bigger "toys" doesn't mean you should use them to kill off large segments of a population that wants nothing to do with your pissing contest.

[PCIntern]

16. How easy it is for you to say in the safety of your

own environment - philosophizing is armchair intellectual sport.

If someone shot heavy ball bearings thru my window with, say a slingshot, and came within a few inches of hitting my child on multiple occasions, and would not cease despite entreaties, and my life and the life of my family were in jeopardy I guarantee you that if I had a shotgun I would use it unhesitatingly, I would not go to the store to buy a slingshot and come back and respond 'equally'. This of course presumes that there are no police available due to (fill-in-the-blank).

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

40. And that's exactly the point here.

You would decide that multiple instances of vandalism and child endangerment allowed you the right to murder someone. Civilized people disagree. The rest of us would put up plywood over the window, and wait for the police to arrest that person. (Not bomb your neighbourhood, not even simply murder the slingshot user. But to actually arrest him, and take him to court.)

You've actually given a wonderful analogy that shows how beyond the limits of civilized behaviour you and those you support are willing to go.

[TheKentuckian]

48. There are no police. Who do you think is coming to arrest the bad actor?

There is also no court to take them to and it is not possible to discern who they are if it was because they blend in with the other neighbors.

Also, the boards aren't magic sometimes the stuff comes through and remains a threat. Sometimes the baby is struck, inflicting damage that could kill them.

All you are really arguing is let them kill the baby.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

49. Really?

I guess I mistakenly assumed Israel had police.

And no, I'm not arguing 'let them kill the baby'. I'm arguing exactly what I say I'm arguing. Police should arrest criminals.

They (or the military) should not blow up buildings or shoot neighbours while arresting criminals.

[TheKentuckian]

51. Israel is the family in the example, there is no external "police" to come and make safe the home.

But now you have left the allusion and switched seamlessly back to reality how would one possibly and precisely know who to arrest and why are the "neighbors" hiding them and if they hide them are they not active participants in the same crime?

What police action would be deemed acceptable? This isn't some small group of identifiable actors, how do you stop them? How do you know you have the right people? How do you end the capability since someone else will just be "next up"?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

54. Why is it not 'some small group of identifiable actors'?

How do police ever catch criminals? There are plenty of neighbourhoods right here in the states where people living in them are uncooperative, yet somehow the police do solve at least some crimes, all without killing anyone. Last I checked, they did investigations, collected evidence, etc.

The number of militant members of Hamas is a finite number. But it's a number that will only grow every time Israel blows up a building, kills more civilians. And it's a number that will shrink if Israel carefully arrests only actual criminals without hurting civilians. Other Palestinians are willing to 'back' Hamas exactly because of the current 'Bull in a china shop' response currently on display. Start treating Palestinians with the same level of respect that Israelis get during police investigations, and you'll get a far better response.

[TheKentuckian]

69. Why? Because it isn't, the number is finite but that doesn't translate to small

The number of humans is finite but there are a shit load of us. The percentage of active Hamas is at least a significant minority and many who are not active are supportive facilitate. What criminal investigation is supposed to work on this scale? How would you even attempt such an undertaking logistically that would actually stop the attacks? What would it look like? Do you not grasp the scope of your "crime scene"? How would you be able to differentiate who is doing what?

Your tangent is fantasy, patently unrealistic but demanding a magic wand be waived apparently because some crimes are solved in bad neighborhoods (what percentage is left to the imagination) are solved on occasion that also leaves aside that nature, scope, and durations of the crimes is not at all comparable nor are the neighborhood a parallel.

Police work dictates the actual percentage of criminals be a tiny segment of the population with a cooperative community or at minimum, one that is not actively hostile. Certainly, little in the way of suicide bombers and hostage takers to navigate while they do their jobs.

I also think the entire position is phony, I suspect you'd just switch over to calling Israel the Gestapo if they did as you currently demand, knowing that evidence would be dicey and that the Jewish courts would be Kangaroo by definition.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

70. I'll address your last point first.

No, I wouldn't. People who commit violent crimes need to be removed from the general population, no matter against whom they commit those crimes. That applies equally to Palestinian or Israeli criminals, or those of any other people. But if you honestly believe what you said, then there is no point in my even replying to you.

Nevertheless, I'll at least finish this reply. I WANT Israel to be able to live peacefully with their neighbours. I don't want them to be attacked by Hamas criminals, and I don't want them to have to waste hundreds of millions of dollars on either defense or offense, merely making the war profiteers more money on the death and suffering. and their current path is not making them any more safe, simply breeding further generations of hatred.

The only way to end the threat of Hamas is to undermine them with the rest of the Palestinian people. To get Palestinians to see no point in supporting Hamas. And as long as Israel is killing, maiming, and blowing up property, that will never happen.

I don't know if the solution will end up being 'one state' or two, but it has to involve more freedom and opportunity for Palestinians, so that they don't want to risk what they gain by turning to violence.

[TheKentuckian]

74. Oh, believe you think you are being honest but I am dubious of the reaction in the actual moment

It isn't personal but rather the fruit of a lifetime of observation mixed with projecting how what you ask for would actually have to play out on the ground because of how such an action would logically have to play out aka all they could possibly do is track back the rockets and use guilt by proximity and would have to do it in large numbers in what would look like a military action anyway because they would have to be vigilant and prepared to deal with suicide bombers, kidnapping attempts, and a very hostile population to even try to trace this back meaning it wouldn't be sheriff Taylor going to talk sense to someone gone astray or an episode of law and order but at best a bunch of SWAT actions (a whole bunch) where there would be killings and protests of innocence and precious little ability to be definitive beyond a reasonable doubt that the folks hauled in were actually the perpetrators.

Almost in every case on this the Palestine supporters beliefs are like an onion and when you pull off the layers, what remains is objection to the existence of Israel either at all, as a Jewish state (the one state solution), or at least in the Middle East, pretending some homeland in Europe (or somewhere) would be carved out or desired.

So, yes I fully believe you want violent offenders separated from civil society but yes I am dubious of acceptance that those rounded up are those actors or that what it would take to actually do so would be acceptable. Why because the demand it's self is unrealistic and poorly considered from an application standpoint as evidenced by dropping it when faced with any basic logistics questions.

You also are under the assumption that the Palestinians can be convinced to abandon terrorist organizations when have clung to one after the other for decades, shit they dropped the PLO for recognizing Israel's right to exist, in no small part.

That said, I don't disagree with your assessment much except I think the Palestinians have more responsibility in the process than accept an offer they can't desire to refuse and eventually stop their attacks as they buy in, with no consequences if they don't or take a generation or two getting there.

[Dorian Gray]

65. Israeli police

can not go into Palestine (Gaza) and arrest citizens of another nation.

That's up to the Palestinian authority (Hamas). And it's not happening.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

66. Why not? Israeli military seem to have no trouble

going into Gaza and blowing up and shooting citizens of another nation.

I'd suspect most Palestinians would prefer to see Israeli police arresting Hamas members than Israeli military blowing up their homes.

[Dorian Gray]

75. Most nations

don't take too kindly to a foreign police force coming onto their territory.

[justiceischeap]

44. Yes, just as easy as it is for you to say what you've said

That doesn't mean that killing every family on the block because of one person who used a slingshot almost hit your child on multiple occasions. As was said by the other poster, you've made my point perfectly. It's one thing if Israel targeted only Hamas but they aren't. They are making little girls doing nothing but sitting in front of their windows targets too.

I'm not saying one side is right and the other is wrong... both sides are wrong, IMO but that doesn't give either side the right to kill people not involved in the conflict. At least in your analogy you're going after the guilty party... that doesn't seem to be the case with Israel.

[PCIntern]

85. By your illogic

The Jewscould go back to Germany and do the same or the Native Americans could do it to your house.

[hobbit709]

12. Another load of taurine metabolic byproducts.

[cpwm17]

13. It's not that the left defends Hamas' behavior

It's that the right and the US Government support Israel's aggressions and oppression of the Palestinians. Hamas isn't the reason for the conflict and few people defend them.

Plus, Israel supporters have selective amnesia: with the backdrop of Israel's permanent and severe oppression of the Palestinians, it is Israel that initiate this round of violence, not Hamas. Oppressors have no right to self-defense against the oppressed, particularly when the oppressor initiated this round of violence with their brutal and deadly collective punishment campaign after the three Israelis were murdered by the two Palestinians.

[Orsino]

71. My sympathy lies with the wounded, bereaved, and homeless.

Imagining conspiracies against Israel is not helpful, nor is any fallacy of the excluded middle.

I oppose violence.

[alcibiades_mystery]

14. Not turning a blind eye toward the IDF's atrocities = "giving Hamas a free pass"

[malaise]

21. What an amazing inversion of reality

but there's nothing new here.
Sometimes I just shake my head and laugh.I can disagree with Israel's war crimes without supporting Hamas.

Let Israel remove the blockade.

[TheKentuckian]

87. Yup, remove the blockade so more and better weapons in along with hardened "freedom fighters" to

help use them.

[BillZBubb]

15. Another Israeli propaganda strawman.

The American left doesn't give Hamas a free pass. Claiming they do as a whole is total baloney and you know it.

[PCIntern]

18. Really?

Many of the posts here go like this: Well, I know that Hamas is shooting rockets into Israel, but they aren't very good rockets, and they can't aim them, and the Israelis have shelters so it isn't a very big deal, so they are like amateurs or something.

That is giving a pass...

[BillZBubb]

23. Yes really.

Nobody has said Israel doesn't have a right to a proportional response to stop the rockets. The rockets ARE very primitive, so the threat to Israel isn't monumental.

By responding to the rockets, which kill and injure few Israelis, with a massive bloodletting in Gaza is as disgusting as it is immoral. That's not giving Hamas a pass, that is calling out Israel on its wrongheaded, murderous and inhumane policies. Policies, I might add, that always fail in the end.

[PCIntern]

26. I seriously doubt that...

if Israel farted in the general direction of Gaza, there'd be plenty of folk ready to condemn them.

[BillZBubb]

37. You aren't using your head, just your biases, then.

[Lyric]

17. I think we ought to build a concrete wall 50 feet high around Megido

Then tell all the Palestinians and Jews who want vengeance more than they want peace, and REFUSE to compromise (because yes, there are people who fit that description on BOTH sides), to go there and have it out. The ultimate battle. The LAST battle. Drop in a huge load of assault rifles inside, but nothing else--no bombs, no missiles, no chemical weapons or rockets, purely hand-to-hand combat only.

Then, when all the hate-spewing warmongers are inside the wall--fill it up with water and walk away.

Problem solved.

[BillZBubb]

25. That's how strawman arguments work. nt

[one_voice]

28. What does..

one expect when one is 'Manny Schewitz'? Oh, wait you're doing that shitty ass stereotyping now...got it.

Imagine if someone did that with any other type of surname.

[one_voice]

35. How do you know he's not much of a...

journalist? You claimed not to know what the site I was using was. How did you determine the 'lack of professionalism?'

About Manny Schewitz

Manny Schewitz is a Progressive from the Dirty South with an inclination to say it like it is. He is a co-founder of Forward Progressives, and also maintains a popular Facebook page, "Whiskey and the Morning After Blog."
You can also find him on Twitter @WATMAB. Be sure to check out Manny's archives for more of his viewpoints.

More articles he's written:

Anti-Immigration Groups Are On The Wrong Side Of History

Senator Bernie Sanders Blasts Walgreens For Tax Evasion

4 Things Conservatives Hate To Admit About Ronald Reaga

http://www.forwardprogressives.com/author/manny-schewitz/

Maybe you can expound on the lack of professionalism with these articles as well and how it relates to his name. Should be interesting.

[Ken Burch]

24. Nobody gives Hamas "a free pass"

It's just that we don't accept the idea that Hamas justifies everything, either.

The IDF has killed 500 Gazans by now...isn't that enough?

[Spazito]

27. I condemn Hamas for firing rockets into Israel and I condemn Hamas for...

sending out suicide bombers to kill innocent Israeli civilians.

I condemn Israel for bombing innocent Palestinian civilians, for protecting and supporting the illegal theft of Palestinian lands and for imprisoning the innocent Palestinian civilians in Gaza then telling them to leave knowing they have nowhere to go.

There is condemnation to be found on both sides, imo.

[think]

29. The only ones getting a free pass are the companies selling the weapons.....

jmo...

[LAGC]

39. +1

Ain't that the truth.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

31. Free pass?

I've been calling them (the ones firing rockets) criminals since we started talking about them, and calling for their arrest.

Who on the left is 'giving them a free pass'? People who don't simply admit that the IDF killing civilians is on the IDF and their indiscriminate 'precision attacks'?

[JustAnotherGen]

34. I'm not giving Hamas a free pass

And I agree with the hard facts.

[maxrandb]

38. Criticizing Israel's actions

does not equate to "giving Hamas a free pass", but I suspect you already know that, and your post is just a strawman argument.

If I have a tank, and you're throwing rocks at me...well, the rock throwing would get rather annoying, but you're not going to hurt me, just like Hamas throwing piece of crap fireworks at Israel is not going to "destroy" Israel.

Tell, me...how many Israeli's were killed by Hamas rockets?

Now, getting back to you and I and our rock and tank fight...sure, I could blast your family with a tank shell, or anti-personnel mines..heck, I might even take out some innocent neighbors, children and women as well, or I could say, yes, this guys angry with me, but he's not equipped to do me any significant harm and go about my business.

Oh, you may also have to throw in that the reason you're mad at me and throwing rocks is because I kicked you off your land, gave you a small hole to pass through and cut off your food and water supply.

There is nothing about being able to see both sides of an argument that makes you give one side a free pass.

I'm sorry if questioning Israel offends you, but someone has to do it.

[Avalux]

42. WTF??? BOTH SIDES ARE WRONG.

It seems if I express my despair over the killing of innocent Palestinian children, I am automatically supporting Hamas and condemning Israel.

I support people - the Israelis and Palestinians who are caught up in the frenzy of violence between their leaders. The killing must stop.

[brer cat]

43. +1000.

[kelliekat44]

59. One side is more wrong than the other! nt

[Nevernose]

63. The side that's shooting at the other is more wrong n/t

[Orsino]

72. That changes from moment to moment...

...but my sympathy tends to go with the most lightly-armed side.

[Enrique]

45. i'm not so sure about #2

I know that many Palestinians very much fear such a thing happening. Everyone talks about the Israelis fear of being wiped out, but no one talks about the Palestinians same fears, which imho seem much more plausible to actually come about.

You say that would be suicidal. How so? They do is slowly, over generations, they just grab more and more land, the Palestinians just get weaker and the world eventually gives up on them. They end up like the Native American tribes that simply don't have any more ability to resist. What's the downside in that, for the Israelis? Zero.

[TubbersUK]

47. No free pass from me but:

The crimes of Hamas do not absolve the Israelis of their moral and legal obligations toward Palestinian civilians. As someone said elsewhere, the Palestinians may have elected bad leaders but that doesn't (morally or legally) make them cannon fodder or justify their hospitals and other essentials being reduced to dust.

As I understand it, Hamas received only around 44% of electoral votes in the Palestinian elections. Given that children don't vote, that not all adult Palestinians would have voted and that 56% of voting Palestinians actually opposed Hamas, it seems particularly cruel to use Hamas to justify recent Israeli attacks on essentially civilian targets.

It strikes me that to foist responsibility for Hamas on the Palestinian children killed, maimed and orphaned in recent days and to use Hamas as an excuse to inflict misery on future generations by depriving them of hospitals and other essential infrastructure is utterly immoral.


The above is essentially why collective punishment and failure to protect civilian populations are enshrined in international law as war crimes. It's also what I joined DU this evening to say and I'm grateful for the opportunity to be able to do so.

[NightWatcher]

50. is the answer, because we hate Jesus?

[alarimer]

57. Israel is treating Palestinians the way they have been treated.

Starving them of food, water, a way to make a living.

It's apartheid, only worse.

[LittleBlue]

58. Let's say I accept your strawman, despite no evidence suggesting it

From this thread: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025282888

The civilian death count is 443-3 in favor of Israel. Why don't they deserve to get criticized roughly 147 times more? I'd say Israel is getting off easy.

[waddirum]

60. You keep using the word "Hamas"

The bombs are being dropped on "Palestine" and "Gaza".

[eridani]

64. Porgressives didn't fund Hamas, but Israel did

For some reason, US and Israeli rightwingers prefer religious whackjobs to secular nationalists like the PLO, which did recognize the right of Israel to exist. You reap what you sow.

[Pisces]

67. I don't think anyone is standing with Hamas. People are standing up for children and civilians!!

People who support Israel without question are constantly trying to make it an Israel or Hamas choice. Unfortunately that doesn't
hold water on this board. Killing innocent women and children when you are the superpower in the region is unacceptable.

[Gormy Cuss]

68. I don't think most on the American left give Hamas a free pass.

Rather, we refuse to give Israel a free pass. Palestinians deserve their own country carved out of the land belonging to existing countries.

[NCTraveler]

73. Hamas get no pass from me.

Despicable group. Many don't understand the fight for power there and how hard it is going to be for the good people to rid themselves of these animals.

[KamaAina]

76. This American lefty doesn't give Hamas a free pass

My attitude is: a pox on both their houses. Remember, Hamas is only in power because we convinced the Israelis to let them participate in the election. Israel wanted to ban them the way European countries ban terrorist parties from running candidates.

[Rex]

79. Garbage in garbage out.

Anything to bash the Left! What a load of bullshit, but standard fare for DU...sadly.

[LWolf]

80. I don't give anybody a free pass.

Why does anyone give Israel a free pass?

I'm sure those who do have their reasons.

[uppityperson]

82. This is a big part of the problem, dichotomous thinking. Criticizing Israel's actions is NOT giving

Hamas a free pass.

Criticizing the actions of Hamas does not make me an Israeli apologist.

[one_voice]

83. I understand what you're saying...

and don't disagree.

I posted this article 1.) because the OP's have been mainly one sided, some with anti-Semitic undertones & 2) I figured another perspective wasn't a bad thing.

It's important to separate the people from the government.

[whatchamacallit]

86. Because "the devil made me do it" is not an excuse

Fuck scapegoating, Israel owns this death and destruction.