Russia Questions Ukraine And US Over Malaysian Airlines #Mh17 Crash In Eastern Ukraine

[Purveyor]

Tuesday, 22 July 2014 - 12:13pm IST | Place: Mumbai | Agency: DNA Webdesk

Russia on Monday released military monitoring reports which showed a military jet, SU-25 which belonged to Kiev following Malaysian Airline's MH17 some time before it was shot down in Ukraine.

According to the reports, the jet was merely three to five kilometers from Boeing which was carrying 300 people. This release led to Russia posing yet another set of questions to Ukraine and the US regarding the circumstance of the tragedy as reported by Russia Today.

Russian military officials, chief of General Staff of the Armed Forces Lt. Gen. Andrey Kartopolov and chief of the Air Force Main Staff Lt. Gen Igor Makushev posed the following questions to Kiev and Washington concerning the potential causes of the crash in Eastern Ukraine that killed almost 300 people last Thursday.

(Below is an interview that appeared in Russia Today)

1. Why did the MH17 plane leave the international corridor?

Please note that the plane stayed within the corridor until it reached Donetsk but then it deviated from the route to the north,” said Kartopolov.

2. Was MH17 leaving the route a navigation mistake or was the crew following instructions by Ukrainian air traffic controllers in Dnepropetrovsk?

The maximum deviation from the left border of the corridor was 14 km. Following that, we can see the plane maneuvering to return to the corridor, yet the Malaysian crew did not get a chance to complete the maneuver. At 05.20 pm, the plane began to lose speed, and at 05.23 pm it disappeared from Russian radars.”

3. Why was a large group of air defense systems deployed to the militia-held area if the self-defense forces have no planes?

As far as we know, the Ukrainian military had three or four air defense battalions equipped with Buk-M1 SAM systems deployed in the vicinity of Donetsk on the day of the crash. This system is capable of hitting targets within the range of 35 km at the altitude of up to 22 km.”

4. Why did Kiev deploy Buk missile system right next to the militia-controlled area straight ahead of the tragedy?

We have satellite photos of the places where Ukraine had its air defense units deployed in the southeastern parts of the country. The first three photos were made on July 14. The first photo shows Buk launchers 8 km northwest of Lugansk. You can clearly see a TELAR and two TELs. The second photo shows radars 5 km north of Donetsk. You can see two TARs along with other equipment and technical structures. The third photo shows air defense systems north of Donetsk. You can clearly see a TELAR launcher and about 60 military and auxiliary vehicles, tents for vehicles and other structures.

more...

http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report-russia-questions-ukraine-and-us-over-malaysian-airlines-mh17-crash-in-eastern-ukraine-2004265

[geek tragedy]

1. The Russian government remains the most shamelessly dishonest one on the planet

The reason those systems appear in rebel territory is because they are rebel systems.

kthxbai

[Duckhunter935]

2. yep

[Purveyor]

3. I'm waiting for the 'spin cycle' to stop and then we'll see how clean the

sheet are once they are taken out of the wash.

I'm wondering, has Kiev release their air traffic control radar/tapes yet and if not, why not. As of this afternoon, I understand they hadn't yet they were able to provide the same data within hours of the Malaysian flight 370 disappearance.

Wonder why that is?

[geek tragedy]

6. good to see you guys on message, it was confusing for a while

with all the different sets of talking points being circulated.

[Purveyor]

8. You must have received your talking points early on, eh? At least you

know better than to go off script.

Why not wait for the completed investigation that Russia supports?

[geek tragedy]

9. "the completed investigation that Russia supports"

Yes, this talking point. Russia is only interested in the truth. And Russia is certainly telling the whole truth when it says it has never, ever provided weapons to the rebels.

[Gravitycollapse]

4. Why are you so determined to portray Russia as the worst country on the planet?

[geek tragedy]

5. I said most shamelessly dishonest, not the absolute worst nt

[Gravitycollapse]

7. Do you honestly believe Russia is the most "shamelessly dishonest?"

Consider your response very carefully. The world is a big place.

[geek tragedy]

10. Yes, other governments are as dishonest but at least try to get away with it.

The Russians just don't give a fuck. They'll lie so brazenly that everyone knows they're lying, and they know that everyone knows they're lying, and they still just do not give a fuck.

"No, we have never sent the rebels any weapons. Those anti-aircraft missiles inside rebel-controlled territory CLEARLY belong to the Ukrainian government."

[MinneapolisMatt]

12. Have to agree with you on this.

It's absurdly well-documented.

[ozone_man]

13. what about a country that lies about WMDs

And uses it as a pretext to invade a sovereign nation and kill a million people? Iraq.

Or how about a country that launches a covert war against its neighbor resulting in the deaths of 200,000? Syria.

Face it, the U.S. is guilty of mass war crimes that have no rival in the modern era.

[geek tragedy]

14. Syria is our neighbor?

Or how about a country that launches a covert war against its neighbor resulting in the deaths of 200,000? Syria.

How do you define 'modern era?'--the past 15 years?

[reorg]

15. nice double dodge n/t

[geek tragedy]

16. hey, Russia's got a lot to be proud about in its support of Assad

you totally have room to talk on this one.

Not to mention Russia's enabling of genocide in Sudan.

in terms of the 'double dodge' when someone is talking nonsense I sometimes like to help them calibrate it better

[ozone_man]

29. Its neighbor meaning Iraq's neighbor.

Nice dodge is right!

I think the accepted number of casualties is 500,000 in the Iraq war. So, keep a little perspective. How do we get away with it? With a lot of help from the U.S. corporate media certainly. So, just in those two countries, we have directly or indirectly caused 700,000 deaths and have seen two secular countries facing the ISIS threat. Is it possible to make such a mess of anything? All over some evidence that most could see was false at the time.

[geek tragedy]

30. So, you're blaming every death in Syria on the US.

That is crazy talk.

Virtually every person killed there has been killed with Soviet/Russian weapons.

[ozone_man]

35. They started the war didn't they?

It's one of the PNAC countries, planned since 1997. Get with the program. Obama has executed Libya and is working on Syria, so he gets credit for two if he succeeds. But, that would also make him a neocon.

It is a proxy war mainly started in 2011, with the U.S. allowing Qatar and Saudi Arabia to fund rebels (terrorists) there. And let's not forget Turkey. It is the status quo procedure for the U.S. and CIA

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/30/world/middleeast/sending-missiles-to-syrian-rebels-qatar-muscles-in.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/9/6/iran_contra_redux_prince_bandar_heads

Also, Iraq refugees flooding the country during and after that war were a destabilizing influence.

So, why shouldn't the U.S. be blamed for all the deaths. When you start a war, people die.

[geek tragedy]

36. No, the US did not start the Syrian

civil war. It was started by Syrians, oddly enough.

You should rely on sites besides theusaisthegreatsatan.ru

[ozone_man]

38. They were not viable

until they were supplied with arms with approval from the U.S.. The Free Syrian Army still is not viable. ISIS is though. We have Saudia Arabia to thank for that.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/19/saudi-arabia-rejects-iraqi-accusations-isis-support

One can find many countries with groups willing to take up arms if supported by super powers. That does not make it a viable civil war. Take the Nicaraguan war for example. The U.S. didn't want a successful example of socialism in the hemisphere, like Chile, or Guatemala, so they waged armed resistances. Geez, get with the PNAC program. I can't believe you don't know this stuff by now.

[geek tragedy]

40. You seem to be confused as to what words mean.

You're now saying that arms from non-US countries flowed to the rebels after the conflict started.

That does not mean the US started the war.

That's your bias speaking, not the facts.

[ozone_man]

41. It's a proxy war.

Unlike Iraq. It is still ours though.

[geek tragedy]

44. no, it is not. thanks for playing though

last word is yours

[ozone_man]

48. A few sources to indicate that it is a proxy war.

President Barack Obama first showed his hand in 2011, when he said, “the time has come for President Assad to step aside.” By the next year, the CIA was training Syrian rebels in Jordan, a longstanding ally of the U.S. now playing an important role as a base for the rebels and a haven for millions of refugees. CIA agents have trained a small group of FSA fighters with anti-tank and anti-aircraft weapons in the hopes of helping American-vetted rebels gain an upper hand in the civil war. And in March 2013, the New York Times reported that “with help from the C.I.A., Arab governments and Turkey have sharply increased their military aid to Syria’s opposition fighters.”

http://www.salon.com/2013/09/06/these_6_players_made_syria_a_proxy_war_partner/

AMY GOODMAN: We are, though, speaking also with Patrick Cockburn, who’s in London right now, Middle East correspondent for The Independent. If you could take it from there, Patrick, and describe—I mean, you’re talking about the biggest emergency in the U.N.’s history, this crisis, the worst since World War II, as the U.N. is describing it right now. Do you see this as a proxy war? And between what countries, and for what, Patrick?

PATRICK COCKBURN: Oh, it is clearly a proxy war. I mean, this may have started off as a popular uprising in Syria, but by now it has four or five different conflicts wrapped into one, that—and you have an opposition, but an opposition which is fragmented and really proxies for foreign powers, notably Saudi Arabia, Qatar. Turkey plays a role. What has changed recently, since midsummer, is that Saudi Arabia is becoming the main financier for the rebel military groups inside Syria. Qatar is playing a lesser role. And the Saudis are trying to develop a Sunni Islamic force that is against the Assad government in Damascus, but is also against al-Qaeda. But this is, even so, very much a sectarian force, which is already being blamed for sectarian attacks on Christians and Druze and Alawites. There, then, of course, you also have the United States and Britain and France. A recent defector from the Free Syrian Army, who joined the al-Qaeda affiliate, Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, said he was continually attending meetings—I don’t know—he didn’t say where, but probably in Turkey—in which always representatives of foreign intelligence services turned up, and at one moment while being presided over by the Saudi deputy defense minister.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, Patrick Cockburn, could you explain what exactly happened to the Syrian National Coalition and the Free Syrian Army, the main opposition group that the U.S. and Britain and other countries in the West were backing and hoping would be a legitimate replacement, possibly, in the future to the Assad regime?

PATRICK COCKBURN: Yeah, there was always an element of pretense in this, pretending that the Free Syrian Army and the Syrian National Coalition were—represented Syrians inside the country. It was always very much an outside exile development. And, you know, they never really controlled much on the ground. And what they did control is now very little. That’s—you know, the headquarters was overrun by the Islamic Front, which is a sort of combination of Sunni groups, appears to be backed by Saudi Arabia. So, basically, it’s been a disaster. So these so-called sort of moderate elements don’t—have never had much influence inside Syria and now seem to be sort of almost completely marginalized.

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/12/18/patrick_cockburn_us_turns_blind_eye

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_proxy_wars

[geek tragedy]

49. the Syrian war is not 'ours'--primary ownership

goes to the combatants in the war itself.
derp

[Cha]

17. Yes, and those on this board back then were against that shit.. just like many of us on

here are against Putin's shit now.

[davidpdx]

27. Same shit different day

And the Russian propaganda still reeks no matter how hard they and RT try to spin it.

[Cha]

51. I just saw this Tweet.. I'll post for someone who will appreciate it..

Charles Hawley @charles_hawley
Follow
Wow, sharp words from German Foreign Ministry spokesperson: "#Russia has promised a lot and delivered nothing. We've had enough." #MH17
3:11 AM - 23 Jul 2014 226 Retweets 92 favorites

TOD

[KoKo]

11. Will be interesting when US State Department gives their information...

won't it. Those are questions that hopefully can be answered or refuted.

[stevenleser]

18. LMAO!

[Purveyor]

21. A very 'fox news' like reply, indeed! You never disappoint and fit in quite well

with 'them'...

[stevenleser]

22. LMAO!!!!

[Karmadillo]

19. US Intelligence is now saying it was a rebel mistake. No evidence of direct Russian involvement.

This comes from 10:18 pm on the Guardian's ongoing summary of developments. Makes one wonder if part of the US government is trying to walk back the confrontation. Also interesting no response to the visual evidence released by the Russians yesterday. I image we will release our evidence eventually.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/22/mh17-eu-foreign-ministers-mh17-sanctions-russia-live-updates#block-53ced3ffe4b0bae3d637b484

US intelligence supports theory of rebel 'mistake'

A press conference was held this afternoon by the US office of the director of national intelligence (ODNI), at which select reporters were briefed on US intelligence with regard to MH17, the SA-11 missile system suspected, and rebels’ and Russians’ alleged participation.

Details are expected soon, but a report from the AP has come out saying that “senior US intelligence officials say they have no evidence of direct Russian government involvement” in the downing of MH17.

They say the passenger jet was likely felled by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile fired by Russian-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine and that Russia “created the conditions” for the downing by arming the separatists.

They said they didn’t know if any Russians were present at the missile launch, and they wouldn’t say that the missile crew was trained in Russia.

The briefing underlined the theory espoused by most of a senior official at the briefing, and by most analysts since plane first crashed: rebels “most likely shot down the plane by mistake”.

[MFrohike]

20. Hoo boy

If I had to guess, they can't tell who fired it. No other reason to walk it back.

[stevenleser]

23. This is not new. This is what people have been saying all long. nt

[The Magistrate]

24. Exactly, Sir: People Treating This As Revelation, Let Alone Exonneration, Are Engaged In Low Comedy

"It was his life's work to announce the obvious in terms of the scandalous."

[stevenleser]

26. There is a desperation in the Putin apologia crowd. It's like when Bieber first started doing crazy

things. His fanboys and fangirls were spinning unbelievable tales to try to make him look better.

[Karmadillo]

32. Except this, maybe: John Kerry Makes the U.S. Case Against Russia Over Downed Plane

http://www.nationaljournal.com/defense/john-kerry-makes-the-u-s-case-against-russia-over-downed-plane-20140720

John Kerry Makes the U.S. Case Against Russia Over Downed PlaneThe secretary of State made the Obama administration's pitch over the plane crash in Ukraine across TV on Sunday morning.

or this, maybe:

http://www.breitbart.com/system/wire/upiUPI-20140721-081422-2982

JOHN KERRY PRESENTS EVIDENCE RUSSIA BEHIND MALAYSIA CRASH

or this, maybe:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/malaysia-airlines-flight-17-john-kerry-enormous-amount-of-evidence-russia-involved-in-mh17-crash/

John Kerry: "Enormous amount of evidence" Russia involved in MH17 crash


Maybe it's just me, but I would say these headlines (and Kerry's hyper appearance on Face the Nation) is significantly at odds with the latest evidence-free claim. Just as some of the social media evidence has faded away, it's possible some of this other unseen "evidence" will have a similarly short lived existence. The point is, at this moment, we don't know what happened. Again, maybe it's just me, but I would like a decent investigation based on the facts before I march on towards WWIII. The Russians have released satellite and radar evidence they claim points at Ukraine. Valid? I don't know. I bet you don't, either. The US has released nothing. Valid? The Gulf of Tonkin and Weapons of Mass Destruction and Cheney misdirection on Iraq's "involvement" in 9/11 make me a little skeptical. The conclusion jumpers on this board can cry "Team Putin" all they want, but at this point, even the allegation the separatists did it by mistake has no valid factual backing that's been released to the American public (you know, the of, by, and for part of the government that theoretically should get to see the evidence gathered/ginned up by their ruinously expensive National Security State).

[The Magistrate]

34. If One Actually Goes Past Those Headlines, Sir

What the headlines call 'Russian involvement' is supply of the weapon system, and fostering of the force that used it. Nor is 'wouldn’t say that the missile crew was trained in Russia' a denial of earlier statements, made on basis of observation some time before this incident, that training on the system for secessionist fighters took place in Russia --- it simply acknowledges it cannot be said with certainty people operating this launcher at this time had been trained recently by Russia.

The facts remain as they have been known to be for some time: secessionists fighters in the Donests, fostered, armed, and largely controlled by Russia, fired the missile that brought down the airliner, doing so under the impression they were firing at a Ukrainian air force machine.

[Karmadillo]

37. If most people go past those headlines, we're in a parallel reality. Add to

Kerry's claims (unsubstantiated, by the way--there were stories the rebels captured the missile system from the Ukrainians, so which one, if either claim, is true?) the claims of the Ukrainians cited by reorg below based on "evidence" and you have an operation that does a good job of convincing people something has been established when it hasn't (the Bush administration was a master at this). I assume the Ukrainian evidence that showed the Russians' finger on the trigger is no longer operable, based on this latest US release, and an apology will soon issue for attempting to mislead the world.

And, to be honest, I can't agree the claim the separatists fired the missile is a fact. To me, that's a very likely scenario, but I don't know of any released facts that would justify that conclusion. Given how the world works these days, I wouldn't be shocked if it turned out to be someone other than the separatists. We need an investigation, not a propaganda orgy, in order to determine the truth (or whatever approximation we can get to).

All that aside, I don't get around these parts very often, but it's good to see you around. I still think those days when posters like you and Indiana Green and absynthe roamed the bandwidth here were among the internet's best. I hope things are going well.

[reorg]

33. No, the Ukrainians have said it very clearly

Can you clarify if the missile was shot by Russians or Russian-backed rebels?

Rebels cannot operate the very sophisticated and high-technique missile launch Buk M1.

To operate Buk M1 you need education, military education and to be well-trained. We know for sure that those, the team was Russian, they were Russian citizens operating Buk M1 and they came from the territory of Russian Federation together with the missile launcher.

See 16:05 - 16:50 in this video:

[amandabeech]

45. I saw that or something like it yesterday.

The Russians are purported to run their military in a different manner than we do, or at least did until recently. Conscripts serve a two year tour of duty, and the sergeants and corporals are picked from the conscripts. As a result of the short tour, the conscripts do not receive much in the way of specialized training. As a result, commissioned officers, who serve longer tours, are the only ones with technical training. Lower level commissioned Russian officers often are trained to do tasks that would be done in the US services by sergeants, petty officers (navy and coast guard) and warrant officers. I not know if Ukraine follows the same personnel plan as Russia, but it is possible.

There may be some former Ukrainian officers among the separatists who would have received training on the SAMs, but if Ukraine follows the Russian model, it may be that no former Ukrainian enlisted man would know what to do with a SAM. It is possible that Ukraine has a record of all Ukrainian officers who know how to use the SAM and has accounted for them all. In that case, the separatists may have been forced to ask Russia for Russian officers (not in uniform) to operate the SAMs.

I will be interested to see where the Ukrainians go with this line of thinking.

[reorg]

46. whatever they may have, it doesn't seem to be convincing the US

government, FBI and whatever specialists they have had mulling over this for several days.

[amandabeech]

47. Yes, we'll see if this goes any further. n/t

[etherealtruth]

42. Wasn't this exactly what was said ...

... from the beginning (not actually the beginning, of course, immediately there was 'we need to wait for facts&quot ?

[Karmadillo]

43. Posts 32 & 33 would seem to suggest it was not.

[etherealtruth]

50. The post "suggests" it ... but the articles themselves do not

I actually have not encountered anyone that thought otherwise.

Though I believe (at this point and from the beginning) this was a horrible and tragic mistake (with horrifying consequences)

...enormous amount of evidence ... that points to the involvement of Russia" in giving pro-Russia separatists in Ukraine the kinds of weapons that shot down the Malaysian Airlines flight and the training to use them.

On the this subject (which is usually the opposite of the real-world) DU ran with conspiracy, accusations and defense ... real folk waited (and like me started from the assumption this was a horrifying mistake)

[malaise]

25. Let's hear from everyone

Truth will out

[davidpdx]

28. ...

[pampango]

39. And liberals everywhere laugh at a neocon authoritarian government blaming anyone but themselves.

If an American neocon did this type of rationalization we would all justificalby scoff at it.