Hugging a woman does not mean you have permission to touch her outside the bounds of the hug...

[Gravitycollapse]

She is not your pleasure object. If she let's you hug her, it is a hug you give and nothing more unless she enthusiastically consents to something more.

Violating this unspoken agreement of personal autonomy is both a criminal act and gross breach of ethics. Do not do this, ever, under any circumstance.

Thank you.

[CaliforniaPeggy]

1. Damn right.

[cyberswede]

3. Trolls - always posting in threads where nobody was talking to them.

[Nye Bevan]

4. There should be no hugs without strongly affirmed consent.

Preferably in writing.

[moriah]

6. ...

"Written consent" could also be revoked, at anytime. You don't get "enthusiastic consent" and why it's preferred as a standard instead of just the absence of the word "No".

Sex is so much better when both parties are actually fully into it, instead of one party being reluctant.

[RKP5637]

5. Exactly! A hug does not mean you're someones property!!! n/t

[Dreamer Tatum]

7. What prompted this OP? nt

[Gravitycollapse]

22. A coworker of mine was assaulted by a customer.

[redqueen]

25. Did you expect these kinds of replies here? nt

[Gravitycollapse]

39. Yes and no.

I wouldn't post it here if I thought the entire community was 100% on board. Of course, the one post troll was not part of my predicted response.

[whistler162]

30. A little more explanation please

did the co-worker initiate the hug with the customer, which I would consider a no-no in a professional environment, and then the idiot assaulted her. Or did the idiot assault her and initiate the hug, which is just as big a no-no?

[Dreamer Tatum]

38. Seems like a lot of stern advice is being provided lately as though everyone needs it. nt

[Gravitycollapse]

41. If you think this is stern advice, then it was written for you.

[Dreamer Tatum]

44. Oops, I meant self-justifying stern advice.

I mean, spare me and everyone else. Of COURSE you mean it to be stern. And OF COURSE I need it. Because anyone who points out that, you know, you're sort of preaching to the choir, well, they MUST be guilty. Brother. I cannot wait until this mania subsides.

[Gravitycollapse]

72. This is sort of a litmus test.

If you think the OP is stern advice, then that is a potential indicator that it was written for you.

The point is that I'm obviously not preaching to the choir. As I said to another poster, I would not have posted this had I thought its premises were unanimously accepted amongst posters. There would be no need for a reminder if everyone already presently, clearly knew it.

[Dreamer Tatum]

75. Then I'm reminding you not to rape anyone.

Just don't.

OK, gravitycollapse? I'm reminding you that rape is wrong, and under no circumstances should you
rape anyone. At all. Rape is wrong. Rape is bad.

So...just don't. OK? Are we clear on that?

[Gravitycollapse]

77. Absolutely, rape is a horrific wrong.

[Dreamer Tatum]

79. Then don't do it, OK? nt

[Gravitycollapse]

90. I absolutely agree. I would never rape someone. It is a terrible thing to do.

[samsingh]

105. i find it offensive

[malaise]

86. Huh?

She let a customer - a stranger - hug her.
I never hug strangers as in never.

[Tetris_Iguana]

93. Nice victim blaming you got there.

Is it the latest model?



Please check your misogyny at the door, thank you.

[malaise]

94. Bwaaaaaaaaaaaah

I am female and I never hug strangers. I don't even hug co-workers outside of our friends and we can count them.

Who lets customers hug them and I am asking a serious question.

[Tetris_Iguana]

97. Yeah I agree it's kind of strange, too.

But we all make errors in judgement from time to time.

[Warren DeMontague]

99. That's fucked up.

A lot of people feel they can treat service industry or retail employees like dirt, and it's not okay.

It's good that you're making this point in the thread. I understand you're pissed; and rightfully so- but adding the background of the incident to the op might make the point get across to more people.

Or it might not. But anyway, I hear what you're saying, and I agree.

[moriah]

8. As someone who has experienced a hug turn into a game of grabass, I agree.

But a game of grabass can very quickly turn into a game of "can I knee you where it hurts?", when it's not appreciated.

[redqueen]

12. Ooh, "hectoring" - whose got "hectoring"? nt

[Warren DeMontague]

18. Hector?

[delta17]

59. The bell scene in Tuco's house was incredible.

That was when I realized how good a show it really was.

[Tetris_Iguana]

91. Amen!

[URL=.html][IMG][/IMG][/URL]

[uppityperson]

14. Welcome to du, again

[cyberswede]

15. The persistence suggests some strange desperation.

No idea why feminism is so threatening to some people.

[redqueen]

16. Notice which feminist subjects which rile them up the most. It is illuminating. nt

[arcane1]

17. Most illuminating indeed!

[cyberswede]

23. Aw - I see I missed him again. More desperate than I even imagined!

[arcane1]

63. Indeed. The loser complains that "we're all sick to death of hearing about them"

yet they keep coming back! It makes no sense

[tkmorris]

10. Are there people who need that explained to them?

Well, of course there are, there are people who believe just about anything, but is there some reason for this particular PSA?

[MineralMan]

11. I never hug a woman or girl unless she initiates it.

I'd never dream of a hug being more than friendly thing.

[exboyfil]

29. Same here with the exception of my wife and daughters

Default is shaking hands for me. Usually only hug the sisters-in-laws and my niece.

[MineralMan]

82. Hugs are common in my circle of friends and

relatives, but never taken for granted. One of my favorite examples is the daughter of one of my wife's cousins. She was an avid hugger until she turned 12. No hugs after that, until she turned 17. Then she started initiating hugs again. In the interim, she still liked to talk with me, and considered me as a friend, but stopped hugging any of her male relatives for five years. Her choice, always.

[tkmorris]

66. Exactly so

It seems odd that anyone could believe otherwise.

[MineralMan]

74. I love hugs, but not everyone does,

So it's the other person's initiative I follow. Some people are huggers and some aren't. I'm good either way.

[Warren DeMontague]

20. Damn Straight.

Ewwwwwwwwwwww!

[cyberswede]

24. Bwaaahaaa!

I forgot about that! O.M.F.G.

[Warren DeMontague]

27. I hear "unpleasant unwanted touching and inappropriate personal boundary violation"

and that's ALWAYS the first thing that comes to mind.

[Comrade Grumpy]

21. Wow. Who knew? Thanks for the heads-up.

[randys1]

35. Who knew a hug doesnt allow you to assault a Woman?

[Comrade Grumpy]

54. I guess I should have used the sarcasm thingie.

I regard the OP as the latest release from the Department of Gratuitous Announcements.

[trumad]

26. I'm a side hugger...

All my friends hug... I hug to the side just to be on the safe side.

[Nye Bevan]

40. Yep. Side-hugs are the way to go.

[trumad]

45. snarf---

[Quantess]

28. Does this apply only to women?

[cyberswede]

31. Of course not.

[Quantess]

36. Well, you never know what a person is thinking...

I would assume this also can be said for all possible combibations of hugging people, such as women hugging women, men hugging men, or even a woman trying to sneak a grope on a man. The OP doesn't seem to consider any other possibilities, though.

[cyberswede]

49. I think they were referring to a specific incident

involving someone they know.

[nomorenomore08]

51. Yes - see post #22. Puts the OP a lot more in context.

[MannyGoldstein]

62. Apparently.

Why else would it be qualified as woman rather than person?

But I'll continue to respect the intentions of both women and men.

[Gravitycollapse]

33. Fuck off already. You're not edgy. You're just a loser.

[redqueen]

34. You misspelled 'drunk'. nt

[cyberswede]

50. *sporrffle*

[randys1]

37. Really? Funny, never heard that from any Woman ever in my lifetime, never saw it mentioned

anywhere in the world on the internet, not anywhere...

Really?

REALLY?

[Iggo]

43. Of course it doesn't.

It's like kindergarten all over again around here.

Sheesh!

[Dreamer Tatum]

47. Careful - you're next on the list.

If you say you didn't need the advice, you really needed it.

Because, you know, you do.

[redqueen]

48. See but here's the thing Iggo...

If I posted something like:

"Service workers are human beings and nobody has the right to treat them like second class citizens just because they have a job that anyone considers 'beneath' them!"

Would we see people whining and complaining about how nobody here needs to hear that?

I don't think we would. I think we would get 100% support, and a few people asking what terrible behavior the OP witnessed that prompted the post.

Why do you think only certain issues related to feminism and racism get these kinds of responses?

[Quantess]

46. Just from reading this thread,

I feel like I'm being virtually groped through the screen!

[AngryAmish]

52. I am not a hugger by inclination.

It seems too intimate for a reserved person like me.

I remember when the hugging thing started for me...the first day of high school. My high school consisted to half kids I went to grade school with and half new kids. The first day, literally the first day, everyone was hugging. No one informed me of this. That summer I had grown some hair where I did not have hair before and if some random member of the opposite sex started hugging me I was not sure if some of my ducted glands would react all by themselves. I was terrified.

Thank god I am not french.

[BainsBane]

61. I'm the same

I'll hug someone I really care bout if I haven't seen them in a long time, but I don't go for everyday, gratuitous hugging.
My cousin makes fun of me for it.

When I lived in Brazil I had to do the two kiss thing, but I never initiated it.

[CBGLuthier]

70. My mother hugged me yesterday for my birthday

we have an agreement, my birthday, her birthday and mother's day.

I do have french/swiss in-laws but I have learned to do the whole thing including the kiss on each cheek. And somehow my new Dutch brother-in-law and I started out hugging and went that way the whole time he visited but he is such a nice fellow it is cool.

[ismnotwasm]

53. Ah yes the hug

I had to learn this technique to back away from the boob-squishers types. Sometimes they try to rub back and forth. It's practically a contortion to avoid them. Considerate men know how to hug without being creepy.

In the end, I just don't hug, except family on very rare occasions.

[Jenoch]

55. What have I missed?

Your post seems obvious to me. Is there a reference or link?

[Threedifferentones]

56. Of course this actually applies to everyone and not just men hugging women...

I've been felt up many times by women I didn't really know, and it always just made me feel uncomfortable. A few times it's been by a woman who is in a relationship with a male friend, which makes it really bad. One in particular seems to just get "handsy" when she is drunk AND my friend is not around. I haven't had the courage to say anything to him about it, but I digress...

Of course it should be obvious to everyone that when men do it to women it is much more than just creepy or awkward, it can be frightening. As bad as these sudden grab-asses have been (I'm pretty sensitive and don't get it on with many people...) they are not frightening to me, because I am so much more physically powerful than the ones molesting me, and I just push them away and it's over.

So, in that sense I can see it as a feminist issue. It also probably happens more often to women too, because we are probably more likely feel entitled.

Still, one could also argue the headline is a tad sexist, because it makes at least as much sense to write "When one person hugs another that is not an invitation to grope or kiss."

[cyberswede]

100. Off topic...

I can't believe I only just now recognized the reference in your username.

I like it.

[NightWatcher]

57. Is it still cool to say "aw yeah, this feels so good"?

Kidding of course.

I don't understand why people run around hugging on strangers anyway. If you are at work, don't do it. There's no reason to touch other people. Do you job, then punch out on the time clock. Do whatever you want on your free time.

You shouldn't be hugging on people whom you don't trust to feel you up either.

[F4lconF16]

101. You shouldn't be hugging on people whom you don't trust to feel you up either.

Wtf?

I hug a lot of people who I wouldn't want to feel me up. Like the OP says, hugging someone does not give them the right to molest you. Way to blame the victim. It's like saying "She shouldn't have been wearing that clothing", or "You shouldn't be hugging on people whom you don't trust to rape you, either."

I don't know what you meant to say here, but it sounds pretty messed up to me.

[LTX]

58. Being American, I make it a practice never to touch anyone, or to smile at them, or to make

eye contact, or to breach the mandatory 4 foot personal perimeter. It was pure hell for the year I was in Romania.

[AngryAmish]

64. go to Lebanon

Man those people get right in your face.

[LTX]

67. Not to mention Moldova. (Actually, I should clarify that my year in Romania was wonderful.)

[AngryAmish]

68. never been there

I find the north south differences in personal space fascinating and funny. Until you get a swede drunk.

[randome]

65. I think I know what you mean but...

...it sounds like you expect permission to be asked for every motion someone might make. "Is it okay if I do this? What about this? And this?"
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

[intaglio]

69. Well considering I even ask if a hug is welcome ...

... then, yes, get permission.

There is no reason to initiate physical contact beyond a handshake with anyone who has not given explicit consent. Cultural variables are such that you cannot know what is considered gross and what is considered harmless.

[moriah]

73. Me giving a person I'm not dating a hug isn't giving them permission to grope my ass.

Yes, that's happened to me.

It shouldn't require a written contract or negotiation to understand that.

[randome]

78. I think if someone 'makes a move' you don't approve of, the smart thing to do is...

...tell him to stop. But to say he isn't even allowed to 'test the waters' without some formal prearranged agreement kind of takes all the spontaneity out of things.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Everything is a satellite to some other thing.[/center][/font][hr]

[moriah]

98. Ask me on a date, then, if you want to test the waters.

Grabbing my ass isn't "testing the waters", it's more like asking for a knee to the groin.

[F4lconF16]

102. And people were wondering why the OP was made.

[tblue37]

71. Such comments make us wonder about the context for the post.

You know, like those posts that say, "I can't believe Rachel just said that!" or "What Chris Wallace just asked Joe Biden makes me want to put my foot through my television!"

What did Rachel just say? What did Chris Wallace just ask Joe Biden? Let the rest of us in on the conversation you are trying to start.

We are not in your head. We cannot see the situation that has you all riled up. Although all DUers who are not trolls would agree that no situation justifies anyone (male or female) transgressing anyone else's personal boundaries without permission (whether that person is male or female), a post without a context that states a generally agreed upon premise makes us go, "Huh? What brought that on?"

[Gravitycollapse]

76. I structured my post so that context does not matter.

Unlike the posts you are referring to, you need know more information to make a decision on the matter.

[tblue37]

80. But then what is the point of the post? It is like saying

that water is wet, or that the sun will rise in the east.

Sure, some people on DU (the usual suspects) will want to argue with a statement as self-evident as your OP, but no one who is really on our side would, and there is nothing to be gained by giving those people an opportunity to, yet again, spew their misogynistic BS.

What a context-free post does, though, is confuse the rest of us and make us feel frustrated that we are not being let in on the whole conversation, but merely being asked to chime in with a cheer: "Hell, yeah!"

Thus the OP really invites only 2 kinds of replies--the mysogynistic BS (which we really should not encourage) and the content-free cheer: "Preach it, brother/sister!"

What else is there to say in response (other than what I am saying here--which is, "Context, please!&quot ?

[Dreamer Tatum]

83. Oh, there's a point to it. nt

[tblue37]

84. OK--then could you explain it to me? nt

[Dreamer Tatum]

85. No, exposing the point would just provoke more re-education. nt

[Tetris_Iguana]

88. Re-education the usual suspects feign to disdain

but are more than excited to dish it out on every occasion.

[Gravitycollapse]

89. I want you to take a step back and realize that you're trolling a thread about not assaulting women.

[BainsBane]

96. One would think if the point were so self-evident

There would be no need to devote countless posts to arguing about it.

[AgingAmerican]

81. And visa versa!

nt

[Tetris_Iguana]

87. I appreciate and approve of the message

But please keep the condescension to oneself.

I generally expect members to hold this community in high enough esteem that it's generally assumed we know to treat everyone with a modicum of respect.

It's kind of a prerequisite to being a progressive.

[Gravitycollapse]

92. There are very few things prerequisite to a political ideology.

Many progressives would either ignore or even endorse, in some fashion, misogyny in some form. Does that mean they aren't a progressive? That is a difficult question. We have to be willing to ponder the idea that members of our community do bad things and that by doing those bad things they are not automatically removed from the community. That is, in essence, nothing more than scapegoating.

As I told another poster, I wouldn't have posted this on this board if I felt support would be unanimous.

[BainsBane]

95. .

[Jim Lane]

103. The whole thread gave me an earworm of Fred Small's song "The Hug"

Pardon the digression, because the song is not about rude people of either sex abusing a hug. It's about a psychologist who was willing to hug his institutionalized patients, but that didn't go over well with the bosses:

You can beat 'em down, you can hide 'em away,
You can keep 'em quiet with drugs,
You can strap 'em and zap 'em with electroshock
But you better not give 'em a hug.

Full lyrics here. I have the album but this song apparently hasn't been pirated for YouTube, so the link is to a good cover version by Cap and Collar (though they don't start actually singing until about 1:30):

[samsingh]

104. same applies to a man.

thank you