I am anti-war. I am anti-Putin.

[Coventina]

I am not anti-Russia. I do not want war with Russia.

I do want Putin and his hooligans held responsible for flight 17.
This does not mean I want to go to war.

This does not mean that I think the USA has never done wrong, including shooting down civilian airliners.
This does not mean that I think Obama is the second coming of Jesus Christ.
This does not mean that I trust "Western Corporate Media."
This does not mean that I trust RT.

There seems to be a lot of confusion on these points lately.
So, I just thought I'd put this out as clearly as possible.

Thanks!

[Spider Jerusalem]

1. A lot of people seem to have trouble with nuance. (n/t)

[Coventina]

2. You said it.

It was getting to the point where it was hardly funny anymore.

So, that's the reason for this OP.

I wonder if it'll just sink into oblivion without the ability to pin a lot of strange baggage to it.

[Silent3]

3. A lot of people here don't bother to argue with what you actually say, they try to categorize...

...and classify you as being on a particular side, in a particular camp, on a particular team, and once a snap decision has been made (it's very important to categorize you quickly!) none of the particulars of what you say matter. Everything is thence forward processed through the chosen filter.

[Coventina]

4. Yep.

Deprive them of an easy target, and they've got nothing.

Which is why this thread sank like a stone.

Proves the emptiness of trying to say that one position implies another.

[geek tragedy]

5. Be very wary of anyone who says you can't believe all of the above. nt

[leftstreet]

6. 'held responsible' how? A time-out? Gitmo? Stern letter?

[Coventina]

7. Prosecution, more sanctions, civil lawsuits.

There is much, much more that can be done, especially if the EU steps up.
And, I'm willing to bet that there will be more enthusiasm for that, now that over one hundred of their citizens have been murdered.

[Tetris_Iguana]

8. Ok

1) Prosecutions- good luck putting any Russian official on trial without starting some sort of war.

2) Sanctions- Russia can be almost completely self-sufficient, so sanction all you want.

Depending on what's affected, this could cause the Russian citizenry to revolt against Putin, or more likely, galvanize the country into a patriotic frenzy.

3) Civil lawsuits- see Prosecutions, and good luck getting payment.

Not saying that these shouldn't be done, just that any one of these 3 could be the nucleus for an eventual shooting war.

Which is why they need to be coupled with a disincentive to escalate that far.

[Coventina]

10. Putin is not going to start a "shooting war" over lawsuits or prosecutions.

He's a thug, but not an idiot.

[Tetris_Iguana]

14. I agree and that's why I called such options a possible nucleus for future action.

We shove with prosecutions, he shoves back with sanctions, we shove harder with more sanctions, etc until both countries are so isolated from each other, and the population so riled up on jingoistic patriotic fervor, that there is no longer any economic disincentive to war.

Putin may not be an idiot, but eventually some things, like flight 17, fall out of his control.

[Coventina]

17. Putin may not have pulled the trigger, but he is directly responsible.

And needs to be held accountable.

Rewarding bad behavior only emboldens thugs like him.

Russia is NOT an island. The Soviet Union collapsed because it could not self-sustain.

Putin is smart, and will take any out that is given to him, but he will not risk outright confrontation over this. He simply is not that dumb.

[conservaphobe]

9. How dare you bring nuance into these discussions.

[cali]

12. I don't think nuance has anything to do with it.

[cali]

11. You shouldn't have had to say it, but it sadly is necessary

I was going to post something akin. Thanks for doing it.

[msanthrope]

13. Nuance. You haz it. nt

[Bluenorthwest]

15. That's not confusion, that is an intentional tactic. Equate any crticism with a threat or prjudice.

It is very popular as a tactic with some of our more retro style posters. Offer specific criticism of actual anti gay laws and they say 'you hate all Russian people'. Point out that the Pope is an anti gay bigot they say 'you want to see all people of faith eliminated'. It is a bully's tactic, to equate any self defense or self identification with aggression. See 'They want to destroy traditional marriage' or 'reverse racism' memes for further study.

[Spazito]

16. Well said! n/t