Can we have an open, perhaps uncomfortable, discussion about race and racism?

[FrodosPet]

Of course not. What a stupid question.

Yes, it is important to listen to what sensible, intelligent people with positive, acceptable attitudes say. But it seems we must completely ignore the extremists - particularly extremists from oppressed groups. We need to stick our fingers in our ears and go "la la la I can't hear you!"when they say disturbing and even genocidal things.

If we give them any acknowledgement at all, we must minimize their numbers and their impact. In any case, we need to make sure to get our "Not Me! I'm not racist, I'm a progressive!" disclaimers in.

Sorry, folks, but I have bad news. I AM out there reading and listening to what people of color are saying. And not only the ones who provide just the right about of white guilt that can largely be hoisted on the easy-to-spot pink faced right wingers, but to people who hate us completely.

There's a lot of people who really don't like us. Maybe we should look at the whole picture, and not just the cropped shot?

[Enrique]

1. i would have left that hate post up there

for the reasons you say.

[FrodosPet]

4. I love helping people think for themselves

Unfortunately, it is an ugly and uncomfortable process.

Two of my biggest heroes growing up were George Carlin and Richard Pryor. What I loved was their ability to make you think non-traditionally. To question the status quo. To realize that conventional wisdom is often merely widespread bullshit.

Though I will never hold a candle to either of these men in terms of talent or popularity, I hope I can give them some small tribute by shaking shit up for a good cause in a place like this. Not for ego, not to be an asshole, but to help people become smarter, more inquisitive, and more independent.

[cali]

18. could you explain why you felt that posting someone who openly advocates for genocide

and posts literally insane conspiracy theories about Jews using the blood of black people for passover rituals, would advance a discussion on racism? How do those hate filled crazy rants lead to a rational discussion of... anything?

[FrodosPet]

55. For one, it helps define the edges

What prompted such an extreme reaction in this person is important.

For example, is there anything sane and reasonable that can be done that will help soften her opinion? Or do we just accept the notion that people can't change and we gotta ignore the crazy and scary ones?

Every voice counts...except his, his, hers, and his. They need to keep quiet because we don't like them.

Sigh.

[cali]

56. no it's not. so then Goebbel's voice had validity? No.

And this woman is literally delusional. So no, nothing rational is going to help her. No every voice doesn't count. Should David Duke's count? How about the rape repuke, Akin?

sigh. double sigh for sad non-critical think and false equivalency.

[Niceguy1]

61. hateful voices dont count

No matter the color of their skin.

[nomorenomore08]

64. Depends how you define "hateful." I agree that complete maniacs sholud probably be ignored.

But we shouldn't use "hateful" as an excuse to dismiss people who merely make us uncomfortable.

[Niceguy1]

69. that I agree on

Silencing people cause they make a person uncomfortable is wrong, sadly it commonplace here at du

[joshcryer]

2. Fringe crackpots are not worth your time.

[madokie]

3. This old white man says we need to

I'm sick of the racism that the pukes are engaged in towards our President. On many pieces of legislation they were for it before they were against it and the only thing thats changed is the color of the skin of the man in the white house. Oh some of it is as simple as a dem vs repuke but thats only a small part of this. I'm seeing and reading/hearing it every day sometimes from people who I thought better of.

[joshcryer]

5. Reread the fourth paragraph.

They are upset because they got a post hidden and isn't wise to be doubling down like this. They need to take a break. Introspect.

Whatever, perhaps I'm too nice to give someone advice like this, let 'em fester.

[etherealtruth]

14. Without doubt n/t

[bluedigger]

35. I tried reading that three times.

It's gibberish.

[Fred Sanders]

50. Pretty close to gibberish..I inserted words in the text where maybe there was a misspelling.....

....benefit of the doubt....but still gibberish. And people commenting on the gibberish, what is that about?

[cali]

11. you really should know the context of this.

If the op's previous, now locked op, is any indication, he/she hasn't a fucking clue as to what an open discussion on race entails.

Clue: It cannot be initiated by posting advocacy for the total mass extermination of people.

[FrodosPet]

53. I am not advocating genocide

I am not supportive of the genocide of anyone. And I am not supportive of the idea that melanin is either intrinsically good or evil.

But too many people are going around like the guy who said "I'm not racist! I'm Swedish!". We need to check ourselves, check our opinions. And by confronting extreme, even insane writings such as this, we can gain some insight into both ourselves and the problems of and solutions for racism.

People of color are not just human weapons we get to throw at the other side while patting ourselves on the back for being "enlightened". They are individual human beings with their own histories and opinions which we may or may not share or enjoy, but which we should acknowledge and try to learn from.

[cali]

57. Well here we agree- too many people who are racist deny it, but

you couldn't have picked a worse person to quote. No we most certainly can't find the answer to racism in frothing... racism. this is a no brainer.

Of course people of color- nor any other people- should be weapons. and no one but you in this thread seems to be patting himself/herself on the back. Yes, every human is a human, but that doesn't mean that everything uttered by every human is of value.

[FrodosPet]

59. I thought I was kicking myself in the ass

I am white, I am privileged, and I have said too many things that I am deeply ashamed of. I guess I have been using this forum as a way of exorcising my own demons and hoping I could help others in the process. Perhaps this is not the right place, but I hope it is.

In any event, I am going to continue on my path to trying to be a better, more caring, and more open person. I will speak my mind, read the replies, and react or adjust accordingly.

[nomorenomore08]

65. You know what? I completely agree with this post. But you still picked a bad example.

[cali]

6. not if you try and start out that conversation with a passage from a hateful sick bigot

crazy person who calls for the total annihilation of all white people, believes black people are the only "superior" "chosen" people and is so anti-semitic it's, well, insane.

there are a lot of haters in the world. elevating them and claiming that they have something of value to share when they're just insanely raving is a heaping pile of stupid.

[Violet_Crumble]

13. Yeah, I saw that. It was revolting n/t

[Generic Brad]

36. Insanity should not be legitimized

Racist views do not deserve a hearing. Creationists do not deserve a hearing. Flat earthers do not deserve a hearing. Intolerance of the LGBT community does not deserve a hearing. Global warming deniers do not deserve a hearing. Trickle down economic theorists do not deserve a hearing. Ayn Rand followers do not deserve a hearing.

If we are to have honest discussions, they should be based on truth and facts. Legitimizing debunked crap will never advance the human race.

[JustAnotherGen]

7. I have no idea

What this is about - were we invaded by an IndieTeaPublican who wrote something stupid?

[sufrommich]

8. Yeah,some backround would be nice.nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

9. FrodosPet's OP was hidden by a jury

It was posted without comment by FrodosPet; it was "10 things white people should ask themselves" from a virulently anti-semitic, pro-African site.

[JustAnotherGen]

10. Thanks n/t

[pipoman]

12. Fighting racism with racism is a sure way to lose people who

Are sympathetic.

Oh, and if you couldn't see the racism and hate in your hidden post, maybe you are the one who needs self reflection.

[etherealtruth]

15. You really believe the OP that was hidden was something ...

... that would encourage a productive conversation about racism? Seriously?

Just like posts from White Supremacist sites encourage productive discussion ... ?

Hate filled insane ramblings (from any fringe group on any topic) do not produce productive conversations.

I have no idea what your motivation is behind these posts, but without some insight into your motivation it really does not look good for you

[cali]

16. It sure doesn't. I prefer to give FP the benefit of the doubt here

and assume he/she wasn't careful reading what he/she posted.

[etherealtruth]

17. I was hoping this OP would shed some light on it

... or perhaps post a response in this thread more clearly outlining "why' and what type of discussion s/he would like to see come from it ....?

[cali]

19. I just asked the op something along those lines

[cali]

20. I really want to know the rationale of your posting the op that was locked

and this apparent defense of it. I don't find this op does that.

[pipoman]

22. I suspect it is someone who believes racism is

A malady of a single race. Members of any other race who exhibits racist behavior are only justifiably indignant, not racists.

[cali]

23. maybe or maybe not. but that blog isn't just racist, it's as crazy as anything one could possibly

dig up. I mean really batshit.

[nomorenomore08]

66. It's not "a malady of a single race." It's a system set up to benefit one race at the expense of

another - in the case of this country, white people over nonwhite people - and people of all races participate in it.

Not that I give much credence to the most extreme, fringe voices. These individuals are hardly representative of anti-racist folks.

[gollygee]

21. What it looks like

I know that sometimes, when people want to dismiss feminism as a whole, they find the most out-there feminist that no one would agree with and set her up as a strawman to knock down, thereby feeling like they've knocked down all of feminism. Or as a way to set up a discussion about femisim where they try to knock the whole thing down.

By posting that particular African American blog and calling it an honest discussion of racism, it looks like you've tried to do a parallel thing with racism.

[Bluenorthwest]

25. That's what it looks like to me too.

nt

[seabeyond]

30. thanks golly. i was not getting what was going on. my post can stand, since it was neutral'ish. nt

[nomorenomore08]

67. I'd like to think his intentions were more positive than that. Still, you have a point. n/t

[reddread]

24. No. of course not.

who cares what they think?

[cali]

26. the op posted from one of the most hate filled and batshit insane sites one can find

and tried to use that as a basis for a frank discussion on race? yeah, that's the ticket.

[reddread]

29. for a discussion on racism? sounds perfectly appropriate

the pollyanna color blindness defense of practicing racists is the real problem.
you dont have to swing a stick to hit a racist in this country, and ignoring that problem
is the problem.

hush now, Im trying to watch something funny on TV that doesnt rely on a racist stereotype...

[cali]

31. look, you cannot post a thread calling for honest discussion using something

batshit crazy. pm me and I'll pm you back some of the dog shit on that site.

[reddread]

38. why not tell me here?

I really dont need any websites to tell me what is going on out there.
I look for myself, and I speak fairly openly with friends who can offer a
perspective that is pretty much impossible to share.
Ive seen some really damaging things arise from these points of view,
which make plenty of sense to those who have lived slightly different lives.
there is really no way to insert your own eyes into another life.
I imagine one of the main reasons Joe Biden forced Clarence Thomas into our lives
was to protect the white man's money against any form of reparations.

think about that.
I believe it is the essential truth of that Supreme Injustice.

[cali]

39. fine. it'll probably get deleted but here

And that’s why they must be destroyed. We have something so great and so mighty inside of us that this invisible force that governs the world is willing to spend obscene amounts of money to recruit as many nations as possible to keep us from tapping into that mighty power. The power that I speak of is the power of The Most High, the Original Peoples of Ma’at, The Alpha and Omega Melanin Peoples of the Planet.

“Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. —–John 8:44?

Passover, the Khazarian Tribal Ritual which uses the blood and flesh of Melaninated Peoples, is upon us. With its arrival, there will be a blood moon. In every instance of a blood moon, the Deceivers have manipulated the cosmos in their ignoble favour and used our gifts, our cosmic gifts, against us. They have recruited those that crave power over huemanity to aid them in their diabolical task. The Maafa was just one prime example of their utter contempt for us. Let me be as clear as possible for those of you that have doubts:

IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN FROM THE VERY BEGINNING ABOUT US AND IT WILL END THAT WAY…ABOUT US.

It is time for us to reclaim our solar power and wipe these creatures off the face of the earth. I ask those of you that are ready to take the next step in our resistance to partake in this Prayer/ Meditation. We all know that words have certain vibrations. The language that we’ve come to know as English is naught but a coded, bastardized, occult spell-caster that keeps us downtrodden, asleep and psychically disconnected.

and there's much more equally or even more fucking sick dog shit on that site. No. I won't post the link. you want it, pm me.

[moriah]

49. And don't forget the interview spewing misinformation about HIV and the black community.

I didn't watch the interview but the comments were enough, talking about how they use the "flu vaccine" to deliberately infect blacks with HIV to give them the drugs to make money off of them.

I understand with Tuskegee not being that distant of a memory why some people don't trust white man's medicine, but this is dangerous and people who listen to this garbage are likely to make very bad decisions for their own health, like not getting tested.

[cali]

40. oh, and if you believe in genocide, you should be booted unceremoniously from DU. period.

[reddread]

41. WAS THAT NECESSARY?

listen- I lost my job for protesting war in 91.
I ended up in Farenheit 911 for continuing to protest wars.
Ive been protesting wars since Vietnam, and
it should not be necessary tomorrow.

was that necessary?

[cali]

42. I'm sorry, but you were legitimizing the most repugnant shit without having read it

and you aren't alone in protesting wars. I've protested every war since Vietnam.

[reddread]

43. like holy hell I was

im starting to see how wars get started.
the only questions remaining-

do YOU want to talk about racism?
or would you rather behave like this?

[muriel_volestrangler]

44. Now that you've seen an excerpt from the website, in #39, what do you think of it?

Do you still think posting something from that website, without comment, is 'perfectly appropriate'?

[cali]

45. Yes. I think dialog on racism is vital. I particularly think discussing reparations is important

but again, you cannot cannot cannot and a few more cannots, start a discussion about race by posting crazy hateful dogshit.

Hey, I know. Let's talk about.... Jewish support for Israel, say. First I'll post something about how Jews control the media and banking and, pulling something from that website, about how they use the blood of people of color on passover.

sound good to you, dear?

[cali]

46. Do you mean you actually read that and find it an acceptable way to start a discussion?

[reddread]

63. havent read anything

sorry, Saturdays tend to be busy what with the hauling of produce I gleaned on wednesday afternoon from my garage to the church down the street to clean and cook soup, beans, rice, salad, tea. then theres the hauling across town, the serving, the clean up, the packing back, the unloading, etc.
6 or 7 hours later Im back and not really interested in what foolishness lurks in the hearts of the interwebs.
time for a nap, good night!

[cali]

27. The more I think about it, the more I find your op here- really, really absurd

YOU have a lot of fucking nerve smearing people of color with this shit. You claim that there are many people with these sentiments? I call dog shit on that. People who utter this kind of insane babbling hate are thankfully not common.

Reprehensible trying to pass this off as "people who don't like us". It's so far beyond that it's not even funny.

Anyone who posts the dog shit you posted and attempts to pass it off as YOU did, needs to do some deep reflection.

disgusting.

[geek tragedy]

33. The Charlie Manson theory of "Helter Skelter" nt

[seabeyond]

28. my boys were raised in a socially aware, respectful house. conversation always. thought, insight.

at 12... my white, privileged (he is certainly privileged in all ways as i am in so many and we all recognize it and acknowledge so it is not an insult or dismissing his voice, we do not do that either), my privileged 12 yr old encountered a couple of black kids in his 98% white school who were angry.

he told me that racism goes both ways.

at 12, we had a discussion to possibly look at the anger, look at the history, look at their environment, look at their daily lives and would it be possible to have a litttle empathy and understanding for those boys.

it really wasnt so hard.

and it was all done, without son feeling devalued, dismissed, attacked, or put upon.

[geek tragedy]

32. You think screaming "Helter Skelter--the blacks want to kill us"

is an honest discussion on race?

Sounds to me that you can find 'honest' discussion on race on any number of white nationalist sites.

[TreasonousBastard]

34. Apparently not...

I saw that post, and while I don't think that blog should have been publicized any more than Stromfront, I see what you're getting at and hiding the post may not have been the best idea.

Yes, all humans share the same traits, good and bad, and some oppressed groups are going to have their fringe members every bit as screwed up as their oppressors. At least I suppose that's your point, but it wasn't made all that well.

[cali]

37. re-read this op more carefully. I don't think that was his/her point.

[FrodosPet]

51. There are people with hostile, angry, and fearful ideas and attitudes across the human spectrum

I obviously shook some people up here. This is a good thing.

I'm sorry I had to do it by publicizing this radical of an opinion, but I think it is vital to look at a spectrum of ideas.

If anyone believes I posted this out of hatred or anger against any race: I assure you, I did not. I just think that it is important for whites to realize that we are not as beloved as we want to think we are. And the attitudes I am seeing about this and the hidden post are quite frankly making it even more clear why people of color are saying that no one is listening to them.

[cali]

58. well, you didn't shake me. you sickened me. I think you are really full of yourself

and I think what you've done- twice- is nothing but shameful and disgusting.

and no that hidden post was hidden because it was nothing but gibbering hate- which YOU find worth. sick.

[Eleanors38]

47. Umm, probably not. nt

[LWolf]

48. You want me to think for myself.

I do.

What are you trying to say is the "whole picture" about race and racism? I have a lot of thoughts on the subject, but don't share all that often. Give me your whole picture, though, and I'll think about it for myself.

And maybe come back with my thoughts.

[Starry Messenger]

52. Predictable nonsense from you.

[Hippo_Tron]

54. I think the President had some pretty wise things to say about this...

He was talking about precisely those people who say things that make white people uncomfortable. Often times they are saying them because they've been shit on by white people their entire lives and we'd all be saying those things if we'd been in his shoes.

In any case, Reverand Wright and the rest of these people who say things that make white people uncomfortable are completely and utterly powerless in the United States. Why should I be concerned about them?

[Jeff In Milwaukee]

60. Not with you....no

I read the post that was deleted, and if you think that's what belongs in a discussion among serious people, then my answer is no. I can't have a discussion with you about race -- uncomfortable or otherwise.

[AngryAmish]

62. I was playing golf. What is everyone talking about?

[kiva]

68. Not with someone who likes to post

racist rants.