I haven't seen an "Appreciation Thread" for socialists, communists and ......

[socialist_n_TN]

other Classic Reds. So here it tis.

If it weren't for us, you would NEVER get any of those vaunted "reforms" of capitalism everybody sings the praises to. Of course, we don't think those reforms will really work (at least not over the long term), but without a threat to the system itself, capitalists will NEVER be scared enough to throw out a few more crumbs to the proletariat.

Just thought I'd add to the theme today.

[daleanime]

1. Now here's an appreciation thread.....

I can really get behind.

[socialist_n_TN]

11. Thanks........

[Louisiana1976]

130. Me, too!

[octoberlib]

2. K&R!

[socialist_n_TN]

12. And thanks for the K&R.....

[malaise]

3. And have you noticed that since the Soviet Union collapsed

they are taking them back one by one with tasteless haste.

[socialist_n_TN]

6. Oh, yes I HAVE noticed that...

Even as degenerated as the Soviet state was, it at LEAST "talked the talk" about a workers' state and the capitalists had to show a "kinder, gentler" face to the world. Without that counter, now they can be what they REALLY are.

[malaise]

8. I actually predicted that

and in this case it hurts to have been right.
Humanity will fight back - we really need that counter

[socialist_n_TN]

10. Yep, that counter IS very necessary........

Of course, I'm tired of the working class having to fight this battle every few generations. I'm ready to take the power and institute a workers' council democracy so NOBODY'S grandchildren will have to fight this battle ever again.

[Bluenorthwest]

30. You guys pine away for a nation that subjected many to great oppression. That's part of why

In USSR, it was illegal to be gay, and the punishment was up to 5 years hard labor under Stalin, after Stalin it remained illegal to be gay, and the anti gay laws, as most folks know, are still alive and kicking in modern Russia.
When I read posts like the exchange between you and Malaise, it is an experience similar to hearing Republicans say Plantations were a great thing in some ways. Very similar.
It speaks volumes.

[socialist_n_TN]

36. Don't ever confuse Stalinism with the workers' democracy....

that founded the USSR. Stalinism was a degeneration of that. And as a Trotskyist I probably know that better than most. Trotskyists were not just jailed under Stalin, they were killed.

The point was NOT that anybody is "pining" for what the USSR became, only that it was the only counter to capitalism available in the world's public imagination. Without SOME sort of counter, we have capitalism in all it's raw glory.

And as to LGBT issues, you won't find any more staunch allies today than communists and socialists.

[DonCoquixote]

67. And as to LGBT issues, you won't find any more staunch allies today than communists and socialists.

I believe you are wiling to walk that talk, but I will confess, the silence of the RT crowd is deafening. The sad fact is, Putin, as much as he WAS right about Syria, is little more than someone trying to be Stalin.

[socialist_n_TN]

72. I agree....

Putin is an opportunist who took advantage of the breakup of the USSR. He's a typical Stalinist in attitude, if not philosophy. Of course, I could also say he's a typical Tsarist too. Basically, he's an authoritarian. But don't mistake the Russian Federation for the USSR and don't mistake the USSR after 1928 (or even before) for the founding years of the USSR.

As to RT, everything it reports should not be believed. Neither should any "news" source from the western imperialist bloc. They are ALL propaganda outlets for their various country's imperial ambitions.

[RKP5637]

79. I think any "ism" can go sour on LGBT, for example. Certainly many in

a capitalistic society would persecute gays to the hilt if given a chance. Russia has suffered through some horrible leaders, I can't blame that on socialism, but rather on the leaders. Stalin, for example, in a capitalistic system would have been horrible too IMO.

[socialist_n_TN]

86. As to whether any "ism" can go sour on any social issue....

I think that depends on how closely they hold to their founding tenets. I'm pretty sure that the original Bolsheviks who took state power in 1917 would have had a pretty enlightened attitude on LGBT issues. I'm not sure it was discussed as openly then as it is now, but just judging by their attitudes on women and race/nationality, then I think it's safe to say that they WOULD have been pretty darn enlightened. That enlightened attitude of the origins was one of the first victims of the degeneration that was Stalinism.

As I said in another post on this thread, as revolutionary socialists we also have got to be able to learn from the mistakes of the past. That's a MAJOR part of the day to day, month to month, and year to year assessment of the tendency I belong to. In Workers' Power, we discuss mistakes we make, own up to them, and try to figure out how to NOT make the same mistake in the future. It's a continual assessment and a collective, majority decision. We envision that being the way a worker's council democracy would run.

[DonCoquixote]

95. I would not hate RT

If it did not house people like Ted Rall or Thom Hartmann. These guys are knowledgeable enough to know that Putin's stance on LGBT is being sold by the GOp as evidence of "see, THAT is how you do it!" If rall and Hartmann can be vocal about Snowden, why not on this?

[socialist_n_TN]

98. As I said above, RT is a mouthpiece for the Russian Federation and......

by extension, Vlad Putin. That doesn't mean they don't get some things right. Quite often in fact, they do good journalistic work. It just means you must take any of their stories about the Russian Federation and Putin with a HUGE mountain of salt.

And that goes for western MSM too. Both western MSM and RT are mouthpieces for their various imperialisms, so don't ever believe either naively. You've got dig really deep into alternative sources and piece it together for yourself on issues that effect the imperial powers because you won't get an unbiased view from either one.

[malaise]

37. That's because you don't understand the discussion n/t

[laundry_queen]

64. +1 nt

[RKP5637]

82. Exactly! n/t

[leftstreet]

42. Was homosexuality legal under the Tsars?

[Half-Century Man]

44. No, because the Imperial System was in lock step with the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church.

[Starry Messenger]

120. It wasn't legal in the US either.

Lawrence vs. Texas wasn't decided until 2003.

[rhett o rick]

48. Just because they called themselves Communists, they were not. Karl Marx would not have liked

the wealthy class lording over the peasants. After the revolution, the authoritarian leaders forgot the last step of the process and never gave the government over to the people. One tyranny was exchanged for another. Typical of all revolutions.

[nilesobek]

88. Like that book "Animal Farm." The pigs took over.

[rhett o rick]

147. Absolutely. nm

[TBF]

84. They also managed to have equal rights for women -

it was written into their 1977 constitution. This country - still waiting ...

[yallerdawg]

4. Here's to the crumbs!

"Democracy is the road to socialism." - Karl Marx

[socialist_n_TN]

9. Yep. Of course we Classic Reds..........

want the whole fucking cake!

[DonCoquixote]

68. as long as you do not toos democracy out with the cake

because some would gladly toss it out. Even trostsky said silly things like "democracy, so precious it must be rationed."

[socialist_n_TN]

91. Part of being a Classic Marxist (as Trotsky was) is......

looking at things in context, including the context of the times, issues, and events involved. As an objective for instance, a lot of people are surprised when I, as a Marxist, claim that capitalism was a progressive system at one time. They will bring up the expansion, exploitation, and oppression that is ALWAYS and always HAS been inherent in capitalism and ask how capitalism could EVER be thought of as "progressive". Well, compared to feudalism, capitalism WAS progressive in most areas.

Democracy is something of a luxury when you're fighting for your life. You can vote to disarm the fascists and counter-revolutionaries of the capitalist order, but that vote don't do shit to disarm them. That has to be done with a class self-defense methodology. I'm not sure of the exact timing of that Trotsky quote you brought up, but most of his active participation in the early years of the USSR involved fighting against that capitalist counter-revolution aided and abetted by the western imperialist powers. So in those circumstances, I'm willing to cut him some slack.

Finally, though I'm am a Trotskyist, as a Marxist I realize that Trotsky was just a man. Brilliant, brave, and yes, sometimes ruthless in fighting for his ideals, but still just a man. Which means he wasn't omnipotent or omniscient. He made mistakes as all people do. As I've said numerous times in this thread, I would hope that with the Marxist analytical method, any new attempt at a workers' state would take into account ALL the mistakes that have been made in the past and try to avoid them.

[PowerToThePeople]

5. I love you guys!!

[socialist_n_TN]

7. Why thank you, thank you very much........

[Octafish]

13. Well said, socialist_n_TN.

These are the richest times in human history, although you couldn't tell it by all the Austerity for the majority.

[socialist_n_TN]

15. EXACTLY. And somebody (everybody?) needs to point out that......

it's not a matter of wealth. As you pointed out, we have wealth. More than we've ever had. It's a matter of the DISTRIBUTION of that wealth. Pointing that out is the job of us Classic Reds. In FORCEFUL terms.

[KoKo]

14. Some folks are morphing ever more Leftward...from the "

Big Dog Needs a Third Term Days." I was one of those sad to see Clinton go...but, these days having Bill back in with Hillary gives me a cringe...because of lessons learned.

Some of us were too obsessed during Clinton Years with defending him from each and every assault that we didn't notice what was going on with legislation in the background. Then we fought for Gore....and we've been fighting ever since....but, it has sort of become clear....that there is more than fighting for what a Politician promises and defending when the usual crazies are working in the background.

So...there's a leftward with some of us who've been through this crap now for decades...but the "internet years" revealed much of what we didn't know before..imho..

[socialist_n_TN]

16. I think that the Internet has been great for democractizing........

(is that a word? information. At it's best, it makes for great debate and showing different ways to think about how to organize society. Because of the internet, ideas that were once marginalized can now get a hearing by many more people.

[KoKo]

17. Refining what it means to be a Democrat with help from those leftward...but also, lessons learned

Last edited Sat Jul 12, 2014, 09:40 AM - Edit history (1)

from having more information available from other points of view than MSM/MIC was feeding us in their lack of diversity which continues with them and will continue given the Wall Street/Silicon Valley Influence. Even the free speech of the Internet is now in peril.

At least we have our links and our past years going through this to be able to know the difference. I fear for the younger ones. But, who knows...there are some really great ones coming along who were aware as we older were becoming aware. So....there is HOPE..

[malokvale77]

41. Yes...

isn't this the very reason, some are so intent on shutting down the free flow of information on the the internet?

[socialist_n_TN]

49. Yes, that is the VERY reason.....

governments and the businesses that own the government want to curb the internet.

[RKP5637]

83. Definitely, and of course, why so many governments, including fractions of our own, want

to get it under control, strictly monitored, the guilty sought out. Power does not like it when the masses talk, it is a threat to the power structure, the wealth and the greed. ... it's even more of a threat when people talk across nations and find they have a lot in common.

[KoKo]

134. ...1

[joshcryer]

18. Why thank you!

Though several of our "reds" here have insulted me on my purity on many occasions, either directly or indirectly.

[socialist_n_TN]

19. Oh Josh, we're just trying to show you the error of your ways.....

[joshcryer]

39. I appreciate that there is more than just Marxist-Leninism.

The only system that has been tried on a state level scale, and it failed spectacularly.

[TBF]

85. That's why it can't be a dictatorship.

It needs to be a democracy with socialism. I think we have the technology to do it. We don't need "representatives' who are just glorified whores for corporations anyway - not when everyone and his brother has a smart phone. Hell, each person gets a social security number at birth - send them their state smart phone when they are 18 & they vote on every proposal. 1 vote for each person.

[freshwest]

20. Thank goodness I don't live in a RTW state and have red commie electric. Yes, it's the real deal.

[socialist_n_TN]

21. Well, it ain't easy being Red........

in Tennessee.

[rickyhall]

24. Or Arkansas

[socialist_n_TN]

26. Or Arkansas.....

I agree. Welcome to DU ricky, BTW.

I've been southern all of my life. Six months in the low desert of California is the longest I've ever lived out of the south. Yet, I'm STILL a Trotskyist. Who'da thunk it?

[freshwest]

38. Growing up in RTW TX, we still won our suburban district for the SWP for POTUS.

Last edited Sat Jul 12, 2014, 03:13 AM - Edit history (1)

And no one gave the SWP, our unions or the YSA any flak at the universities or anywhere during the progressive era.

We rode the wave with the Democrats, who were willing to work for workers, equality for all, the environment and ending the war that enriched the MIC.

It's the causes that matter, not the label in some cases. The rightists were really pissed nationally and struck back with Reagan and religion to sway the masses. It's been a mess ever since everywhere.

[socialist_n_TN]

50. Good point in your last paragraph.....

I've found here in the last few years (since the Great Recession exposed capitalism for what it REALLY is) that people who I work with in coalitions for specific issues don't really care that I'm a Trotskyist. That's probably because in this deeply RW state, ANY support for your cause is welcomed.

[Laffy Kat]

22. Ok, ok...

My salute, but the doggie appreciation thread was cuter.

[socialist_n_TN]

25. Thanks......

But remember the owners aren't really scared by "cute".

[cantbeserious]

23. Right You Are - Without The 99% - The 1% Would Never Be Forced To Do Anything But Feed Their Greed

eom

[socialist_n_TN]

27. The 1% (I call them the owners of society) don't EVER do anything.....

until they are forced to, one way or another. Usually by pressure from below.

But it's not really about "greed". That's just a human failing. It's about the system of capitalism that forces most of the owners into doing what they've been doing. Even if they want to do the "right" thing, they system keeps them from it. That's why a system change is needed.

[cantbeserious]

29. Understand Your Thoughts - A System Reset Is In Order - However, Greed Is Synonymous With The 1% For Me

eom

[Blue_In_AK]

28. I can get behind this.

[socialist_n_TN]

55. Thanks........

[The Magistrate]

31. Very True, Sir

Reformers generally cannot get anywhere unless there is a rough fellow with a stick lurking nearby....

[socialist_n_TN]

51. And that is the point of this post......

In reality, even liberals should support Classic Reds. We ARE that "...rough fellow with a stick..." when it comes to the capitalist power structure. As I said in the OP, you won't even get the crumbs without a healthy fear by the owners of losing it all.

[2banon]

32. Hear, Here! I don't know what all those other "appreciation" threads are about..

But I can get behind this one!

[socialist_n_TN]

63. Thanks 2banon, I figured our guys and gals in SP would appreciate it...

if no one else did.

[2banon]

121. :)

[navarth]

33. Although these appreciation threads kinda make me cringe,

I'm glad you did this.

[socialist_n_TN]

52. Yeah, I've got to admit I don't even read most of them.....

Just the opening titles. But there are a lot of sincere folks on DU that are Classic Reds, including myself of course, and I thought well, why not?

I also freely admit it was something of takeoff on all of those other "Doggie Appreciation" threads.

[littlemissmartypants]

34. Kicking. Thank you. nt

[socialist_n_TN]

54. You're welcome.....

[nomorenomore08]

35. I don't know if Social Democrats count as "real" socialists, but this country could use a sharp turn

to the left, given how skewed to the right our political discourse has been since at least the Reagan years.

[socialist_n_TN]

58. I look at Social Democrats as revolutionary socialists who........

haven't been beaten up enough by the system. Yet. One day we'll be calling each other "Comrade"

[mndemsocialist]

168. As a long-time DSA member...

I have come to see myself as a social democrat in the short term (reforming the system to make it more humane, making people's lives better), but a democratic socialist in the long term (ending capitalism).

Short term, because that is how I see the transition away from capitalism. I do not see how we can just "end" capitalism without a lot of hard ground work.

At my age of 60, if before I die, at the very least, there is a growing movement questioning capitalism for the 99%, and building an organization for real change, then I can die happy a happy man...

[RKP5637]

80. Exactly! Pre-Reagan it was a far better place, at least it seemed people,

"we the people," had a chance and greed was somewhat kept under check by the taxation system. Granted, it was not perfect, not perfect at all, but in my lifetime I have never seen this country so financially stacked against "we the people" as now. True, there have been some really really bad times, but it seemed IMO to be improving, then came Reagan and threw a wet blanket over everything.

[TBF]

87. We include them because at least they

are traveling in the correct direction - away from capitalism and towards a more collective system where goods are shared rather than hoarded by a few.

I tend to talk much more about the Paris Commune than the USSR. Although I will take every opportunity to point out that at least womens rights were covered under the USSR's constitution which is more than this country has been able to offer.

[nomorenomore08]

129. I just take "Social Democrat" to mean, believing in democracy, but also in (some form of) socialism.

On the Political Compass Test I'm way down in the bottom left corner, FWIW.

[TBF]

132. Interestingly I think many of us are

down in that corner. I've read threads about it on here and while people may vote pragmatically I think they'd really like to see a more collaborate system.

[nomorenomore08]

133. Absolutely. In some ways, Scandinavian-style Social Democracy is my ideal.

But I feel like this country is desperate for any kind of system that's more collectivist and more fair.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

40. Great thread, Stalin.

Kidding...well, not kidding, it is a good thread.

[socialist_n_TN]

46. Please. I'm about as far from Stalin as you can get.......

People who believed as I did were killed by Stalin.

Trotskyism is the Marxist road not taken.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

59. It was intended in jest. nt

[socialist_n_TN]

62. I'm never sure in GD......

Most people on DU are pretty tolerant of my kind, but when I least expect it, I get red-baited.

Next time use Trotsky though, OK?

[leftstreet]

43. DURec

[socialist_n_TN]

56. Thanks leftstreet.......

I've appreciated you for a LOOONG time now!

[leftstreet]

92. ...

[Half-Century Man]

45. I learned to be a Socialist in the US military.

I grew up there, on bases throughout the world. As a dependent, without the social stratification of rank, I attended the exact same schools as the General's kids, used the exact same free universal Health care (medical, dental, vision, and mental), and shopped at the same stores.
Many years later, after doing political spectrum testing (both online and in college) I found out I was a Liberal Socialist, left of European Social Democrats.

I won't enforce socialism with a bayonet, I will argue your ear off.

[socialist_n_TN]

47. The amount of violence in a socialist revolution would be in direct proportion........

to the amount of resistance that the owners used to stop the necessity of making society work for the rest of us.

I believe in self-defense and I extend that self-defense to my class, the workers of the world.

[The Green Manalishi]

143. Screw the bayonet.

Don't fuck with anything that at a minimum doesn't start with a speed of 2000 feet per second or detonate at around 6,900 M/S.

Unless you have a guillotine handy.

[Starry Messenger]

53. Woot!

For the doubters here, Nelson Mandela was a Communist.

[socialist_n_TN]

57. Yep. Most of the leaders of oppressed peoples.....

the world over were either Marxist or Marxist influenced. Dat's a fact, Jack!

[SwampG8r]

60. i appreciate you and america needs you

without you out there threatening the status quo all we get is gop or gop lite
we need you out there so we know which direction left is
thanks

[socialist_n_TN]

61. Thanks for getting it.......

Although one of these years I'd like to see a workers' government attempted again. Hopefully, we can learn from history and not repeat the mistakes of the past.

Until then I'm proud to serve as a boogeyman for what you could get if there are no reforms.

[SwampG8r]

65. not a boogyman

but definitely a different perspective on issues and solutions
the democratic party doesn't do well when it forgets where the left is

[socialist_n_TN]

66. Making people "forget where the left is" is one of the great......

propaganda victories of neo-liberalism. When everybody in power became co-opted by the Freidmanite, neo-liberal version of economic policy, the so-called "left" became anybody who wasn't TOO upset that you were gay or smoked pot. And that's NOT left.

But seriously, thanks for getting it. a lot of people don't.

[fasttense]

69. I totally agree

It has taken me 20 years to realize that real socialism is the answer to the horrors of capitalism. I was aware of the horrors. I just didn't know there were solutions. Then I found Richard Wolff.

Lets hope others are quicker on the up take.

[ctsnowman]

70. Nailed it.

[socialist_n_TN]

73. Thanks to you ct. As I said above........

I expect our SP comrades to "get it".

[IronLionZion]

71. Gratitude is a great attitude

I'm loving the loving on DU for everyone.

[socialist_n_TN]

75. I'm pretty pleased with gratitude too.....

But that still doesn't change my outrage at the unequal nature of the capitalist system.

[marmar]

74. k/r

[socialist_n_TN]

76. Thanks marmar. You're another one I've been......

appreciating a LOOONG time now.

[marmar]

78. Mutual admiration s_n_t

[socialist_n_TN]

93. They'll tell us to "Get a room!"...

And as we've discussed before, we'll use that room to plot the revolution and sing The Internationale.

[stupidicus]

77. yep. They're usually about egos that don't need a boost

with an intent of either rallying the troops as a periodic reinforcement for the cult of personality types, or needling the opposition -- those who have a different pov regarding those praised -- or both.

About every time I see one for some reason the tune of "I wish I was an Oscar Meyer weiner..." comes to mind. Who knew for example, that mastery of such a simple thing as blue links would be praiseworthy.

Good post. Many around here no doubt need to be reminded about the role of the "extreme lefty" in the politics we have and many want.

[socialist_n_TN]

97. I was just seeing all of those "appreciation" titles on threads........

and didn't see one on this subject, so I thought it was appropriate. I actually thought it could turn into either a very serious talk about the far left's place in historical politics OR a lighthearted send-up of those "appreciation" threads that I never actually read. Ideally, I thought it would leave room for both of those things.

I'm pleased to see that it DID lead to both serious discussion and light hearted play.

[malthaussen]

81. I agree with that assessment.

I've long thought that all labor progress was due to the bosses living in mortal terror of a Communist revolution. That's why I didn't join in the universal celebration of the fall of the USSR. The first place my mind went was to wonder what the bosses would do now that the counterweight was gone. Well, we've seen the answer to that.

-- Mal

[socialist_n_TN]

99. That part about the USSR that you mentioned.......

was part of a very interesting subthread above. And of course I agree with your first sentence wholeheartedly.

[McCamy Taylor]

89. Certified "Red" checking in. K&R for the man who described "vampire capitalism"

our own esteemed Karl Marx. Oh, and if you haven't read it yet and don't have 99 cents or a kindle, send me a Tell and your email address and I'll send you a word document of my latest novella "Mack the Ripper" a Marxist take on Jack the Ripper. Because any sensible Marxist can see that the Ripper was a response to the London match worker's strike.

[socialist_n_TN]

101. Thanks McCamy.....

I'll shoot you a DU message with the email addy.

[TBF]

90. Hopefully a nod to the anarchists as well -

[socialist_n_TN]

94. Most anarchists are Classic Red IMO.......

As a democratic-centralist, I still have MUCH trouble envisioning how an anarchistic revolution would be successful and then survive the inevitable capitalist counterattack though.

I can easily see the anarchistic model though as the next step (after socialism and the dictatorship of the proletariat) towards communism and the withering away of the state.

[TBF]

96. We'll get there

[Joe Shlabotnik]

123. +1

Anarchists and Socialists have had long history or working together and share many egalitarian goals. From fighting Tsarism, organizing workers in the Europe and North America, and fighting together against Fascists is Spain.

Going forward, I think when we factor in modern developments such as; the environment, resource depletion, jobless societies, advanced education and accessible global communication, we can learn from past mistakes, and patch together a socialist future, that has checks, balances and freedoms from anarchist tradition.

In the mean time, we should not let our divisions distract us from our common foes. To the Barricades!

[TBF]

126. Agree 100% -

I think taking into account Anarchist history will give us the freedom piece that has alluded socialism in many places

I don't know if the world is ready yet, but it's what I'm working toward while I'm still on this earth.

[moondust]

100. Competition can be good.

It's too bad there isn't an alternative "sphere of influence" in the world today to provide some competition and keep the capitalists somewhat honest and "threatened" enough that they still need to win hearts and minds. That probably contributed a lot to the "golden age" of middle class growth between WWII and Reagan.

[socialist_n_TN]

102. Oh it most definitely did contribute.......

As I said in the OP, capitalists don't reform if they're not threatened. "Reform" is not a part of capitalism.

[TBF]

103. I think it may have been more the fact that everyone was decimated after WWII -

we taxed our highest earners at 90% and built up our military industrial complex like crazy while other countries were licking their wounds and rebuilding as well.

The only thing that keeps capitalists somewhat "honest and threatened" is the fear that workers will take them down.

That is why they deported all the serious communists in the 50s - they were a threat.

[moondust]

104. "workers will take them down"

or countries will choose to do business/align with the other guys who may offer them a better deal. But yes, communists were perceived as a potential threat to the hegemony of capitalism wherever they were found including the USA.

[JEFF9K]

105. I appreciate Albert Einstein and Jesus Christ.

Both socialists.

[socialist_n_TN]

115. The more intelligent people usually are.....

[McCamy Taylor]

106. Karl Marx is number one! Yeah! Workers of the World unite!

[sabrina 1]

107. k/r!

[socialist_n_TN]

116. Thanks sabrina.....

From a long time appreciator of your posts.

[sabrina 1]

146. No problem, and the feeling is mutual!

[JackRiddler]

108. From each according to his ability...

To each according to his need.

No human society has ever been based on any other principle. Capitalism imposes a set of property relations and economic dynamics, but the underlying necessity of our everyday life is communist.

Or as Graeber puts it:

I define communism as any human relationship that operates on the principle of “from each
according to their abilities, to each according to their needs.” I could have used a more neutral term like
“solidarity,” “mutual aid,” “conviviality”, or even, “help” instead (Graeber 2010).

Prompted by Mauss, I suggest that we jettison the old-fashioned assumption that “communism”
is basically about property relations, reflecting a time long ago when all things were held in common
and the messianic possibility of restoring the community of property—what might be called “mythic
communism”—but instead see it simply as a principle immanent in everyday life. Whenever action
proceeds “from each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs”—even if it is
between two people—we are in the presence of “everyday communism”. Almost everyone behaves this
way when collaborating on a common project. If someone fixing a broken water pipe says “hand me
the wrench”, their co-worker will not usually say “and what do I get for it?”, even if they are working
for Exxon-Mobil, Burger King or Royal Bank of Scotland. The reason is efficiency (ironic, given the
conventional wisdom that “communism just doesn’t work”): if you want to get something done,
allocating tasks by ability, and giving people what they need to do the job, is the most effective way to
go about it. It’s one of the scandals of capitalism that most firms, internally, operate in a communistic
way. True, they don’t operate democratically. Most often they are organized by military-style chains of
command. But top-down chains of command are not very efficient (they tend to promote stupidity
among those on top, resentment among those on the bottom.) When cooperation depends on
improvisation, the more democratic it tends to become. Inventors have always known this, start-up
capitalists also, and computer engineers have recently rediscovered the principle: not only with
freeware, but even in the organization of their businesses.

This is why in the immediate wake of great disasters—a flood, a blackout, a revolution or
economic collapse—people tend to behave the same way, reverting to a kind of rough-and-ready
communism. Hierarchies, markets and the like become luxuries that no one can really afford them.
Anyone who has lived through such a moment can speak to the way strangers become sisters and
brothers, and human society itself seems to be reborn. We are not just talking about cooperation.
Communism is the foundation of all human sociability
. It makes society possible. Anyone who is not an
enemy can be expected to respect the principle of “from each according to their abilities...” at least to
some extent: for example, if you need to figure out how to get somewhere, and they can give you
directions, they will. We take this so much for granted that the exceptions are themselves revealing.
Evans-Pritchard reports his discomfiture when someone gave him intentionally wrong directions:

READ IT HERE
"On the Moral Grounds of Economic Relations"
http://openanthcoop.net/press/http:/openanthcoop.net/press/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Graeber-On-the-Moral-Grounds-of-Economic-Relations4.pdf

[socialist_n_TN]

114. This is why I believe that the more "utopian" parts of Marxism......

i.e., the withering away of the state into communism, can actually work. It will take a long time until people and society get used to cooperating with each other- and this is where the anarchistic models of organizing society can be of benefit-, but it CAN happen.

And thanks for adding this to this thread's co-operative endeavor.

[Lifelong Protester]

109. I'm, of course, in.

With a K & R and the knowledge that I always sign on too late (and end many a thread!)

[socialist_n_TN]

111. You haven't ended this one Lifelong Protester......

[Lifelong Protester]

148. Hooray!

The "curse" is lifted!!! And I appreciate your starting of this thread.

[socialist_n_TN]

161. You are most welcome. And appropriately.....

this thread was a cooperative effort.

[johnp3907]

110. I came for the music...

...stayed for the revolution.

[socialist_n_TN]

112. Billy Bragg. ANOTHER Classic Red........

[iamthebandfanman]

113. democratic socialism is wheres its at!

human beings aren't evolved enough for an 'actual' communist society... because of personal greed, wants, and lust for control...

I like to point out to my libertarian friends that for these very same reasons human beings can not survive in a lawless stateless society either like the anarchist order they seem to champion (one that I agree with, human beings should strive to live without the need for law.. but lets not kid ourselves, that's a long ways away... assuming we even make it that far).

[socialist_n_TN]

117. Well as to how evolved we are.....

I hope we actually get a chance to see.

[WCLinolVir]

118. Right you are.

[socialist_n_TN]

141. Thanks and welcome to DU....

Join us in the Socialist Progressives DU group. Read the SOP and see if you like it!

[Dragonfli]

119. I don't read vanity appreciation threads, but This is not that, I agree with your post

I always have, anybody that has studied our history knows how important classic Reds were during early labor and later during the depression. Were it not for them, we would have tried in the thirties what we have tried since our most recent crash and it would have failed then as it is failing now.

Without enough indigenous Reds the reforms that worked for a short time will not even be attempted now, we are screwed without them.

I am in the process of moving from a Social Democrat towards a more classical Marxism, but I am still in the studying phase.

[socialist_n_TN]

162. Well the studying part is VERY important.......

because system change or revolution is a very serious and uncertain thing and requires a LOT of commitment.

I don't know how far in advance I am comparatively (or even if I AM in advance , but I do actually belong to a group, so if you have any questions or comments, I'd be glad to discuss them with you. Just PM me and we'll figure something out.

[Dragonfli]

166. I'd say you are quite well in advance of myself

I read The Communist Manifesto about thirty years ago and I believe a critique of Hegel a couple of years after.

Later I scanned some Economic & Philosophic Manuscripts that a roommate had in a book that appeared to be a collection of them.

My memory is quite failable so I shall have to obtain new copies and reread what I already have, as well as find other resources I have yet to be exposed to. I don't think this will happen quickly and I agree it is a very serious matter as The Capitalist excesses are quickly reaching a point of critical mass and some "heavy shit" will no doubt be forthcoming, Id rather be part of a solution rather than mistakenly adding new problems.

I have no doubt I will be taking you up on your offer especially where it may concern Modern Socialistic thought and implementation theories that may be adapted to the 21st century.

Of course I will also continue to lurk in the Socialist Progressives group.

Thank you for the response and the offer of help!

[socialist_n_TN]

167. No problem Dragonfli.....

Just ask and I can point you towards some things to read. I started out reading Trotsky. Anything by him and about him. Actually his autobiography entitled "My Life" is a pretty good starting point. It was written in 1929 after he had been exiled by Stalin. He lived and worked another decade and more, so naturally his thinking developed some from where he was when he wrote the autobiography, but the basics and the basis of his beliefs is in this book. It's also entertaining as heck!

I push Trotsky because he was more of a classic Marxist than almost any of the other Bolsheviks, other than Lenin of course.

[sadoldgirl]

122. This is coming too late probably, but

while I am a democratic socialist I also became green. We have to take the environmental damages very seriously now. Climate change does hurt the whole planet.

[Joe Shlabotnik]

124. As it stands,

there is no capitalist solution to our environmental problems. Before colonialism, many indigenous peoples practiced variations of communism, that recognized that their very existence was inclusive within the environment.

[Bonhomme Richard]

125. The truth is spoken. n/t

[socialist_n_TN]

139. Good man, Richard!......

[Babel_17]

127. I started a thread for one Socialist in particular, Rose Schneiderman

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025232214

[socialist_n_TN]

138. Thanks Babel. This is what the owners have in store for all of us......

unless we fight back with everything we've got.

[The Green Manalishi]

128. K&R from this Wobblie

And rot in hell to anyone, anywhere, who for any reason has worked against unions.

When the weakest union in the world can bring the strongest corporation, military or rich fucker to their knees in pants shitting fear, when scabs get slabs, when "arch conservative" comes to mean someone to the left of where Alan Grayson and Elizabeth warren now stand, then we will be living in a just and worthwhile nation and world.

[socialist_n_TN]

137. And THAT is the militancy we need from EVERYBODY!!!

Of all the anarchist groups, I loved the Wobblies the best. Them boyz didn't play when it came to class struggle.

[TBF]

151. I heard this kind of talk growing up

in the midwest in the 1970s. We weren't more than a few hours north of Chicago and the unions in the steel and paper mills were strong. They weren't afraid to paint signs and go on strike, and they let the community know what they thought of scabs. It was much more honest (and effective) than the ass-kissing cubicle dwellers who are lucky if they make $15 an hour and then spend their time training their replacements when they hit 40.

[MrMickeysMom]

131. That's okay...

It's a good day to do this, SnTN

[socialist_n_TN]

136. Thanks Mick's Mom....

[OrwellwasRight]

135. Yup! I appreciate Cedric Robinson!

http://www.uctv.tv/shows/Symposium-on-Cedric-J-Robinsons-Radical-Thought-Cedric-Robinsons-Keynote-Address-9301

[socialist_n_TN]

153. Thanks......

[Louisiana1976]

140. Excellent thread. K&R

[socialist_n_TN]

154. Thanks. I'm sure it's not easy being Classic Red in Louisiana either.....

[me b zola]

142. K&R

[socialist_n_TN]

155. Thanks and right back atcha!........

[De Leonist]

144. TIS' THE FINAL BATTLE!....

[socialist_n_TN]

152. Thanks De Leonist! That was inspiring on a Sunday morning......

Even though the lyric is SO old fashioned ), I still get that proverbial "chill".

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

145. Nicely done SnTEN

And thanks!

[socialist_n_TN]

156. You're welcome. And as you can see.....

it was a cooperative effort. Appropriate, n'est pas?

[WhaTHellsgoingonhere]

163. welll, in the cooperative spirit...

...I'll repost my political platform here

socialize banks
break up monopolies and oligopolies and enact laws that make mergers and acquisitions exceedingly rare
socialize energy (natural monopoly)
add tariffs to create "fair trade" so jobs return to/don't flee the US
raise marginal tax rates precipitously after the first $1,000,000 earned
treat capital gains as income
eliminate tax loopholes for those who can afford to exploit them, that includes corporations
enact laws that prevent states from competing in a race to the bottom by granting corporations tax free status for relocating
enact laws that tax corporations that want to move out of the US
raise the minimum wage to over $11 and hour
single payer health care
reallocate funds away from the military industrial complex to building infrastructure (roads, bridges, schools, green energy, etc..); the military gets what's left over
legalize marijuana
enact a STET tax
eliminate the Social Security cap and tie the contribution to income, not payroll (treating capital gains as income, of course)
socialize prisons
restore the power of the Supreme Court to it's original construct (limited)
enact laws that encourage voting including lengthening the time people have to vote
rewrite laws that criminalize blacks disproportionately
define white collar crime, criminalize it, and send criminals to prison (eliminate white collar prisons)

[Sognefjord]

149. Old SDS comrade here!

This thread is a light in the corporatist gloom.

[socialist_n_TN]

158. It DID turn out to be a good one, didn't it?......

I didn't actually know where it was going to wind up when I posted, but I'm glad to see how it evolved. As I've said several times already, an appropriately cooperative thread.

Welcome to DU BTW. You can join us in the Socialist Progressives DU group if you want. Lots of good discussion there. Just read the SOP and dive in.

[Sognefjord]

165. Thanks, I'll check it out.

Dare to struggle! Dare to win!

[Zorra]

150. KnR. It's time to grow up. nt

[socialist_n_TN]

160. Past time, I think we'd both say Zorra.........

Thanks to another poster that I've appreciated for a while now.

[Zorra]

164. The feeling is mutual s_n_T. Hopefully, enough of us can get together

in time to stop the capitalist assault on our world before it is too late. I so appreciate you and all my compassionate sisters and brothers here who understand that it is past time to evolve out of this literally insane capitalist system.

[Romulox]

157. If your #1 issue is Hillary 2016, I question your commitment to "socialism"....

Not speaking about the OP, but some of the self-identified "socialists" here in the thread.

[socialist_n_TN]

159. I think that some just k&r for the original thread's intent.......

which was to thank the Classic Reds for their contribution towards scaring the capitalists into reform.

But I agree, socialism, especially revolutionary socialism, goes a LOT further and deeper than Hillary 2016.