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ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:02 PM Jul 2014

Legalize Polygamy! No. I am not kidding.




By Jillian Keenan

~snip~

For decades, the prevailing logic has been that polygamy hurts women and children. That makes sense, since in contemporary American practice that is often the case. In many Fundamentalist Latter-day Saints polygamous communities, for example, women and underage girls are forced into polygamous unions against their will. Some boys, who represent the surplus of males, are brutally thrown out of their homes and driven into homelessness and poverty at very young ages. All of these stories are tragic, and the criminals involved should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. (That goes without saying, I hope.)

But legalizing consensual adult polygamy wouldn’t legalize rape or child abuse. In fact, it would make those crimes easier to combat.

Right now, all polygamous families, including the healthy, responsible ones, are driven into hiding (notwithstanding the openly polygamous Brown family on TLC’s Sister Wives, that is). In the resulting isolation, crime and abuse can flourish unimpeded. Children in polygamous communities are taught to fear the police and are not likely to report an abusive neighbor if they suspect their own parents might be caught up in a subsequent criminal investigation. In a United States with legalized polygamy, responsible plural families could emerge from the shadows—making it easier for authorities to zero in on the criminals who remain there.

Many people argue that there is no such thing as a “healthy, responsible” polygamous family, particularly for the children born into one. “Children are harmed because they are often set in perennial rivalry with other children and mothers for the affection and attention of the family patriarch,” argued John Witte Jr. in the Washington Post. “Men with lots of children and wives are spread too thin,” agreed Libby Copeland in Slate. The earnestness of these arguments is touching but idealistic. Men in monogamous marriages can’t be spread too thin? Children in monogamous families don’t rival each other for the attentions of their parents? Two-parent families are not the reality for millions of American children. Divorce, remarriage, surrogate parents, extended relatives, and other diverse family arrangements mean families already come in all sizes—why not recognize that legally?

~snip~


http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/04/legalize_polygamy_marriage_equality_for_all.html
135 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Legalize Polygamy! No. I am not kidding. (Original Post) ZombieHorde Jul 2014 OP
If a woman has a bunch of husbands, is it still called polygamy? leftstreet Jul 2014 #1
That's polyandry. Polyamory is the catchall term I've seen used. n/t winter is coming Jul 2014 #4
Polygyny is, I believe, the technical term for one man, many wives. Jackpine Radical Jul 2014 #35
Nope, that will become a slut shaming moment. MohRokTah Jul 2014 #5
When Taking Multiple Husbands Makes Sense Xipe Totec Jul 2014 #12
Interesting. I'd heard of polyandry among certain Asian cultures but hadn't read much about it. nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #110
Why it doesn't make sense.... PassingFair Jul 2014 #131
Yup, that is exactly how they would do it. n/t Jamastiene Jul 2014 #116
Polyandry is rare, but it does exist. ZombieHorde Jul 2014 #10
It's either called polyandry or poly-laundry, depending on your worldview. Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2014 #24
No, I believe the word is "crazy" nt clarice Jul 2014 #39
Polygamy = multiple spouses. Polygyny = multiple wives. tblue37 Jul 2014 #113
crap clickbait article. geek tragedy Jul 2014 #2
not saying anything about the wisdom of legalization, but it's hardly unworkable. unblock Jul 2014 #9
sure, it could treat marriages exactly like it treats corporations geek tragedy Jul 2014 #13
custody and divorces could be done as pairwise mariages unblock Jul 2014 #16
except divorces involve division of property, and also then it isn't a plural marriage geek tragedy Jul 2014 #21
Those are all good points. It does tend to open a rather large can of worms, theoretically at least. nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #111
So what? Trillo Jul 2014 #135
Why is it unworkable? ZombieHorde Jul 2014 #11
in every way possible. family and divorce and tax and probate geek tragedy Jul 2014 #14
if plural marriages are really legally just overlapping pairwise marriages, what's the problem unblock Jul 2014 #19
marital property for one. tax is another. probate is a third. geek tragedy Jul 2014 #22
taxes seem simple, all filers qualify as "married" unblock Jul 2014 #27
married . . . what? filing separately, jointly? geek tragedy Jul 2014 #32
Yup, who would get the pension and the social security PLUS the division of indivisible items riderinthestorm Jul 2014 #41
with multiple marriages being the new swiss bank account. geek tragedy Jul 2014 #42
Contractual. Its hard enough divvying up assets and custody between two riderinthestorm Jul 2014 #15
they could all be treated as pairwise marriages. unblock Jul 2014 #18
Then thats not polygamy. Its some other kind of legal animal riderinthestorm Jul 2014 #26
my mother is a lawyer and has handled many ugly divorces, and i myself have been divorced. unblock Jul 2014 #31
My sister is still involved in divorce disputes with her ex-husband 6 years after they separated riderinthestorm Jul 2014 #37
not to mention the prospect of a husband undergoing divorce proceedings geek tragedy Jul 2014 #40
Yup, easy to "hide" those assets and money especially with a bit of forethought riderinthestorm Jul 2014 #43
Under secular law, marriage is a contract Gormy Cuss Jul 2014 #28
I agree that expanding marriage beyond a two-person arrangement would be far more complicated nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #112
Polygamy only works in highly warlike patriarchal societies. MohRokTah Jul 2014 #3
since the US is the most war like nation, polygamy sounds like a good fit :-) nt msongs Jul 2014 #6
Sadly, a very good synthesis of the two ideas... Pholus Jul 2014 #45
+1 lunasun Jul 2014 #78
or in prurient, adolescent, jerk-offy tv programming leftstreet Jul 2014 #7
Such as the US? nt ZombieHorde Jul 2014 #8
Defintely pro-polyamory Blue_Adept Jul 2014 #17
I've never seen a polygynous marriage that MineralMan Jul 2014 #20
Watch the SyFy series called Caprica some time. MohRokTah Jul 2014 #29
Am I the only one....... WillowTree Jul 2014 #48
Only place it works. ;) eom MohRokTah Jul 2014 #56
people do that all the time with big brother Mosby Jul 2014 #58
All that proves... Lancero Jul 2014 #50
Fiction. MineralMan Jul 2014 #59
I have, he was a decent enough guy. The women shared childcare and other chores Warpy Jul 2014 #34
Dr. Phlox seems like a nice guy... hunter Jul 2014 #52
He'd have to have something to recommend him, with that mug! MADem Jul 2014 #79
He has an amazing smile... hunter Jul 2014 #84
That is some discombobulating make-up/prosthetics! nt MADem Jul 2014 #106
then again, he comes with handles RainDog Jul 2014 #134
Sure. conservaphobe Jul 2014 #23
If abuse and negelect are so prevelant why would we open the door to this? Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2014 #25
For two reasons. ZombieHorde Jul 2014 #30
It would take a radical reordering of our legal system geek tragedy Jul 2014 #36
Out of all the arguments, worrying about making a judges life difficult doesn't concern me. Pholus Jul 2014 #46
polygamy is not progress, it is primitive. geek tragedy Jul 2014 #47
Naw, it's just fun seeing a knee jerk reaction based on religion. Pholus Jul 2014 #75
Given that demand for polymarriage is exclusively the domain geek tragedy Jul 2014 #88
Only one more thing is needed to make this discussion complete... Pholus Jul 2014 #114
You think the judge's life is the only one who would be miserable?? riderinthestorm Jul 2014 #49
Yes, the children are doomed to suffer. Pholus Jul 2014 #83
I've only seen the show a handful of times, but I thought I heard that Kory Brown is a supporter StevieM Jul 2014 #65
Legalized slavery for women get the red out Jul 2014 #33
Calm yourself, this is a canary in a coal mine ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jul 2014 #38
"calm yourself" nothing sexist in that suggestion, right? get the red out Jul 2014 #120
No mainstream liberal or Democrat has suggested such a thing ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jul 2014 #128
Monogomous marriage was legalized slavery for women. ZombieHorde Jul 2014 #44
It's polygamy I oppose get the red out Jul 2014 #118
You're thinking of polygyny. ZombieHorde Jul 2014 #124
The article implies get the red out Jul 2014 #125
So, jumping from one evil to the next? Lancero Jul 2014 #51
Not really get the red out Jul 2014 #117
Most people are pointing out that this would be a unsortable legal mess... Lancero Jul 2014 #53
This message was self-deleted by its author dilby Jul 2014 #54
If they want to willingly live like that then that is their problem. dilby Jul 2014 #55
No. bravenak Jul 2014 #57
Does a polyamorous gay relationship status "enslave women?" Gravitycollapse Jul 2014 #60
I can't speak for bravenak but the OP is about women in heterosexual marriages riderinthestorm Jul 2014 #62
If we are talking about legalizing polygamy, in today's society, that means gay, straight and bi. Gravitycollapse Jul 2014 #64
Nope. Disagree. Sadly too many states still don't recognize gay marriages riderinthestorm Jul 2014 #67
I'm using gay or bi polyamory as an example of how you don't understand your own argument. Gravitycollapse Jul 2014 #69
I have no problem with polyamory. bravenak Jul 2014 #63
Okay, but marital spousal abuse is normally practiced where you live. Gravitycollapse Jul 2014 #66
Oh, here you go with this shit. bravenak Jul 2014 #68
And a husband beating his wife is not the only form of monogamy. Gravitycollapse Jul 2014 #70
A husband beating his wife is not monogamy. It is assault and battery. bravenak Jul 2014 #71
You're the one conflating the practices of a misogynist religious sect with ALL polygamy. Gravitycollapse Jul 2014 #72
Yes i do. bravenak Jul 2014 #74
As long as you understand you're being a reactionary... Gravitycollapse Jul 2014 #76
As long as you realize that women do not earn as much as men and live in a misogynistic world. bravenak Jul 2014 #77
Hold up just a second. Are you trying to argue that the free-love movement isn't misogynist? Gravitycollapse Jul 2014 #81
You need to re read what i wrote. bravenak Jul 2014 #82
I understand exactly what you're saying and doing. You arbitrarily prohibit some institutions... Gravitycollapse Jul 2014 #85
Do the lives of women and children improve under polygamy? bravenak Jul 2014 #87
You have yet to justify the legal prohibition of polygamy. Gravitycollapse Jul 2014 #90
The practice of polygamy as PRACTICED is my problem. bravenak Jul 2014 #91
I think that regulating social attitudes through legal regulation is actually the true fantasy. Gravitycollapse Jul 2014 #92
The fantasy is taking emotions out of the situation and expecting people to behave reasonably. bravenak Jul 2014 #94
So you've just completely discounted your prohibition argument. Gravitycollapse Jul 2014 #96
My prohibition argument is that the abuse will increase.nt bravenak Jul 2014 #99
Again, I ask, what evidence do you have for such an argument? Gravitycollapse Jul 2014 #100
The fact that it is practiced in a sexist way in fact as opposed to your theory.nt bravenak Jul 2014 #101
Again, abuse is deeply embedded in monogamous marriage. Gravitycollapse Jul 2014 #102
Nope. Notice how it's usually the men with multiple partners in reality as opposed to your theory. bravenak Jul 2014 #104
Three lesbians in Massachusetts are way ahead of Keenan derby378 Jul 2014 #61
I have a friend who considers himself an Extreme Liberal, Maedhros Jul 2014 #73
Your friend doesn't sound like a liberal. geek tragedy Jul 2014 #89
Show improvement in the quality of women's lives besides the lessening of male predation, please. ancianita Jul 2014 #80
Thank you! get the red out Jul 2014 #121
For this to be done... krispos42 Jul 2014 #86
I can see the argument that women have more freedom under this system XemaSab Jul 2014 #93
The Supremes ruled polygamy illegal in 1890. Manifestor_of_Light Jul 2014 #95
Go ahead, how consenting adults wish to arrange their lives and obligations to each other TheKentuckian Jul 2014 #97
I'm cool with it Puzzledtraveller Jul 2014 #98
+100 ChazII Jul 2014 #107
So you're saying no marriage should be legally recognised? muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #115
yeah, I said all that, amazing Puzzledtraveller Jul 2014 #122
"Defining what combination of consenting adults constitutes a marriage relationship ... muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #123
Consenting adults should be able to marry anyone they want LittleBlue Jul 2014 #103
I tend to agree, but one needs to be careful about the gene pool. gordianot Jul 2014 #105
If it is a free choice libodem Jul 2014 #108
While I consider it more or less an entirely separate issue from same-sex marriage equality nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #109
Don't do this! You'll have to deal with ... OldEurope Jul 2014 #119
I don't want to marry multiple people. ZombieHorde Jul 2014 #127
Can't think of any logical reason not to allow it between consenting adults...... bowens43 Jul 2014 #126
I don't see why it should be illegal. Xolodno Jul 2014 #129
I won't support polygamy until wealth is equally distributed RainDog Jul 2014 #130
Interesting rebuttal. ZombieHorde Jul 2014 #132
This message was self-deleted by its author RainDog Jul 2014 #133

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
35. Polygyny is, I believe, the technical term for one man, many wives.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 05:00 PM
Jul 2014

Polygamy, although generally used to mean polygyny, is the generic term. Polyamory does not imply marriage among the participants.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
5. Nope, that will become a slut shaming moment.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:08 PM
Jul 2014

Followed by the questioning of the masculinity of the men involved.

We are a sick society.

Xipe Totec

(43,890 posts)
12. When Taking Multiple Husbands Makes Sense
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:17 PM
Jul 2014

"classical polyandry" in Asia has allowed families in areas of scarce farmable land to hold agricultural estates together. The marriage of all brothers in a family to the same wife allows plots of family-owned land to remain intact and undivided."

In other cultures, it appears that a man may arrange a second husband (again, frequently his brother) for his wife because he knows that, when he must be absent, the second husband will protect his wife -- and thus his interests. And if she gets impregnated while Husband #1 is gone, it will be by someone of whom he has approved in advance. Anthropologists have recorded this kind of situation among certain cultures among the Inuit (the people formerly called Eskimos).

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/02/when-taking-multiple-husbands-makes-sense/272726/

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
110. Interesting. I'd heard of polyandry among certain Asian cultures but hadn't read much about it.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 02:48 AM
Jul 2014

I wonder if wives in polygynous cultures ever arrange further marriages for their husbands? Or do women in those societies have too little power to do so?

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
10. Polyandry is rare, but it does exist.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:15 PM
Jul 2014

Many polygamists do so for religious reasons, and those religions are usually patriarchal, such as Christianity.

tblue37

(65,393 posts)
113. Polygamy = multiple spouses. Polygyny = multiple wives.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 02:59 AM
Jul 2014

Polyandry = multiple husbands. Polyamory = multiple sexual partners.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
2. crap clickbait article.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:07 PM
Jul 2014

people can have all the unofficial sex partners they want when married to one other person

but, it cheapens and dilutes the concept and legal consequences of a marriage to allow 3,5,15, 10,000 members of a marriage.

a marriage is not a corporation, my friends.

completely unworkable-there's no way the government could legally enforce marriages involving that many different people.

this is the kind of crap that the homophobes predicted would ensue from marriage equality

unblock

(52,243 posts)
9. not saying anything about the wisdom of legalization, but it's hardly unworkable.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:15 PM
Jul 2014

i don't see any reason why the government couldn't come up with reasonable ways to modify or interpret marriage, divorce, taxes, probate law, etc. to also handle plural marriages.

again, that's not to say it's wise public policy, but i don't see it as unenforceable or unworkable from a legal perspective.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
13. sure, it could treat marriages exactly like it treats corporations
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:23 PM
Jul 2014

but then they wouldn't be marriages, they'd be loose affiliations that would be transitory and expected to see members enter and leave over time

plural marriages require legal systems based on some rather primitive notions to work--male supremacy is the common denominator. the only way it's administratively possible is if one person is the center of the wheel, with all other people serving as subservient spokes

you think divorces and child custody hearings and issues like spousal and child support and marital property are complicated now? try having 7 different people vying for custody instead of 2.

if Person A is married to Persons B and C, are persons B and C married to one another? Would person B's consent be needed for Person A to marry person C?

If person C wanted to divorce Person A but not Person B, would they be allowed to do so?

there's a reason no modern, civilized legal system has this nonsense in it.


unblock

(52,243 posts)
16. custody and divorces could be done as pairwise mariages
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:30 PM
Jul 2014

each child could belong to two specific parents, and divorce and custody law could handle it accordingly. if a partner that isn't one of a child's parents divorces out of the plural marriage, that's a non-issue. if one of the two parents divorces out, then custody goes to one of the two parents or is split between them, just as with two-people marriages.

if one person is the center of the wheel, as you say, it's pretty straight forward.

once again, i don't see this as good public policy; but i certainly don't see the legal aspects as unsolvable.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
21. except divorces involve division of property, and also then it isn't a plural marriage
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:39 PM
Jul 2014

it's just one person being in separate partnerships with multiple people. There isn't one household, etc.

and marriage has tax implications.

also, consider:

Person A is married to persons B and C

Person B is married to persons A and D.

Person C is married to persons A and E.

Person D is married to persons B and F.

Person E is married to persons C and G.

Person F is married to persons D and H.

good luck unentangling that mess.

Fortunately, we're not going to enact sharia anytime soon, so this is a speculative game rather than a serious discussion

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
111. Those are all good points. It does tend to open a rather large can of worms, theoretically at least.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 02:52 AM
Jul 2014

I wonder if we could have some way of recognizing polyamorous arrangements without considering it marriage per se? That might avoid some of the complications of expanding marriage beyond the two-person framework.

Trillo

(9,154 posts)
135. So what?
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 10:52 PM
Jul 2014

You wrote, "...then they wouldn't be marriages, they'd be loose affiliations that would be transitory and expected to see members enter and leave over time".

That's actually what it says at Wikipedia regarding polyamory, such relationships are more transitory than the "perfect" expectation of a single lifelong pairing. Isn't perfection the enemy of good enough? Why have we allowed the religious idea that a marriage that once entered has to be a tight pairing which must last to the end of time itself, even beyond death?

I fail to see why it's not legal for every person in the United States to marry each other, all of us in one "group marriage", essentially one big corporation for economic benefit, so there's only one taxpayer. There doesn't have to be any sex involved, though some of that would occur between some members that were attracted to each other. That's very similar to what banks and corporations have done, except they've been deceitful and tried to hide it, only being discovered by the, I believe, swiss study written about in 2011. The study that showed the core shareholders who own controlling interest in a vast number of other corporations, but until the scientists studied it closely, it had remained "undiscovered." That was essentially deception.

If our laws are set up to regulate corporations and their money so loosely, why are our laws set up to control marriages, and their economic benefits, so tightly? Is it only about sex? Or is that the red herring with the true objection being more about corporate power and economic domination over the rest of us mere humans?


There are at least two ways to fix this. Allow humans to enter into greater economic units, or scale back the power of corporations to do what is essentially the same thing.

Unfortunately, what I see in the short term, is the opposite, more humans staying single, more serial polygamy (divorce and remarriage to another) and corporations having even more centralization.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
14. in every way possible. family and divorce and tax and probate
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:27 PM
Jul 2014

etc etc etc are all based on the concept of a marriage involving two people.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
22. marital property for one. tax is another. probate is a third.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:41 PM
Jul 2014

also, no person would have a single household, but would rather be splitting their time between different legal households.

unblock

(52,243 posts)
27. taxes seem simple, all filers qualify as "married"
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:48 PM
Jul 2014

as for probate, don't think divvying up the estate among multiple marriages is any more challenging than divvying up an estate among multiple children.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
32. married . . . what? filing separately, jointly?
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:56 PM
Jul 2014

in probate, you'd have the estate divided up by multiples of multiple children

and the issue of marital property would be the one really intractable one. Who gets the house? The money in the bank accounts? the car?

If you have 5 different people all having co-equal claims to an asset . . .

Also, what about employer benefits? Who would get to make medical decisions if the person's incapacitated?

It would require a fundamental reordering of our entire legal structure.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
41. Yup, who would get the pension and the social security PLUS the division of indivisible items
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 05:14 PM
Jul 2014

that can't be sold. Who gets the only family portrait or family bible?

I've seen those disputes go on for years when it only involves TWO people - add more into the mix and I can't imagine the legalities...

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
15. Contractual. Its hard enough divvying up assets and custody between two
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:29 PM
Jul 2014

Throw in more legally entitled adults and it becomes truly unwieldy.

unblock

(52,243 posts)
18. they could all be treated as pairwise marriages.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:34 PM
Jul 2014

but even if you lumped them all in together, you can fall back on basic principles.

divorces have certain goals, such as to ensure the welfare of the children involved, to ensure balanced allocation of joint earnings during the marriage, etc., with some variance from state to state. i don't see why courts couldn't figure that out in any situation, or legislatures couldn't clarify the rules.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
26. Then thats not polygamy. Its some other kind of legal animal
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:47 PM
Jul 2014

I'm going to guess you haven't seen a messy divorce up close and personal before have you?

The "courts" have all sorts of enormous difficulty with just two people. Once you get into other legal guardians (which a polygamous spouse would have to be in order to make legal decisions for a child in the household), it opens up avenues for probate, inheritance, taxes, asset division, custody etc.

unblock

(52,243 posts)
31. my mother is a lawyer and has handled many ugly divorces, and i myself have been divorced.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:55 PM
Jul 2014

so yes i am quite familiar.

divorces in plural marriages would be more complicated, sure, just because they involve more people, but i don't see it as particularly challenging to lay down the basic rules.


my understanding of polygamy in practice is that overlapping pairwise marriages is the norm, from the bigamist who keeps his two wives in the dark about the other to the tlc "sister wives" construct where there is really one person (invariably male) married pairwise to several partners (women in this case, again, invariably).

i'm sure there are also plural marriages where several people consider themselves married simultaneously to each other, as collective marriages rather than pairwise marriages. in some ways i see this as less problematic as the patriarchal/sexist nature of the tlc "sister wives" construct might be lessened.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
37. My sister is still involved in divorce disputes with her ex-husband 6 years after they separated
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 05:08 PM
Jul 2014

6 years.

Still going back to court to resolve ongoing custody problems, support payments (he's hidden assets and $ which the law firm is still working on locating. Each new discovery means more court time), lack of compliance issues by her ex in regards to the kids etc.

Her attorney is the same one who handled Micheal Jordan's divorce. High asset divorces with major league assholes are extremely contentious and are often drawn out for years with spousal alienation, alimony, asset division, and other issues that continue to crop up that require more trips back to court. Throw in another legal guardian or two who are now also granted legal permission to sue for custody, assets, child support etc. (ie. legally harass) and its a toxic recipe I believe is harmful to the children (and the parent). I went to dinner with him once and the stories would make you weep for the kids and the divorcing spouse.

Evil shit. Multiply that times several legal adults and the financial train wreck would be disastrous for children.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
40. not to mention the prospect of a husband undergoing divorce proceedings
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 05:12 PM
Jul 2014

from one wife to simply transfer all of his assets to another wife, or to shift assets between wives or threatening to do so in order to coerce them.

"Oh, hey, sorry your honor, my client is penniless. He transferred ownership of his business to his other wife, who is not a party to these proceedings."

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
43. Yup, easy to "hide" those assets and money especially with a bit of forethought
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 05:15 PM
Jul 2014

I've seen it up close and personal.

The spouse and children are the ones who suffer. Its hard enough when its only two people...

Clearly everyone (but us obviously) on DU has only had easy divorces and near perfect contract terminations without any acrimony, hurt or damage.



Gormy Cuss

(30,884 posts)
28. Under secular law, marriage is a contract
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:50 PM
Jul 2014

and thus is enforceable like any other contract.

It probably would not be as easy to enforce as adapting to LGBT marriage equality because that was a paradigm shift in gender pronouns not in the number of parties to the contract. All the laws are written for two parties to the contract and would need to be redone, perhaps with modifications on issues like presumptive parenthood. I'm not a lawyer and I don't play one on DU; there may be many places where a simple change of language wouldn't suffice.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
112. I agree that expanding marriage beyond a two-person arrangement would be far more complicated
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 02:54 AM
Jul 2014

than simply extending it to people of the same sex. One reason I'm more inclined to favor an alternate form of recognition for polyamory.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
3. Polygamy only works in highly warlike patriarchal societies.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:07 PM
Jul 2014

In fact, in such societies polygamy is REQUIRED in order to propagate the society as so many young men are killed by the society's warlike nature, leaving unmarried women with nobody else to propagate the society with unless there is polygamy.

Hence why polygamy was so rampant in the Old Testament, and why it is a part of Islamic culture as early Islam was very war driven.

Blue_Adept

(6,399 posts)
17. Defintely pro-polyamory
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:30 PM
Jul 2014

Made it work successfully for quite a few years myself with others.

Marriage between more than 2 people won't fly anytime soon, but it will eventually as what constitutes a family grows and changes. The needs will be different and it'll find place and acceptance. There's a reason it's fairly common among science fiction novels for decades because they take the long view of how society changes and how they'll react.

Having grown up with a large chunk (but certainly not all) of Lazarus Long's material from Time Enough For Love and other Heinlein works being influential, it definitely clicks and makes sense to me and my own experiences with the women in my life.

MineralMan

(146,317 posts)
20. I've never seen a polygynous marriage that
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:36 PM
Jul 2014

didn't have a misogynistic asshole as the husband. Never. And that, in my opinion, is reason enough to discourage that practice.

If you can point me to an exception I can verify, I will withdraw my objection.

 

MohRokTah

(15,429 posts)
29. Watch the SyFy series called Caprica some time.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:52 PM
Jul 2014

They show polyamorous marriages in that setting that apparently work.

WillowTree

(5,325 posts)
48. Am I the only one.......
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 06:16 PM
Jul 2014

......who sees the irony in the fact that you've cited a science fiction program?

Warpy

(111,267 posts)
34. I have, he was a decent enough guy. The women shared childcare and other chores
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:57 PM
Jul 2014

and he wasn't too full of himself to pitch in.

I can see how it would work for adults who consent freely to that sort of life.

It beats the hell out of serial polygamy that a lot of men practice, divorcing a wife after childbirth widens her ass and makes her tits sag for a newer, tighter, younger trophy babe. See: Gingrich, Trump, etc.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
79. He'd have to have something to recommend him, with that mug!
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:33 PM
Jul 2014

Oh well, I guess it's all the same in the dark...?

RainDog

(28,784 posts)
134. then again, he comes with handles
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 08:29 PM
Jul 2014

so, when he's changing the oil under the hood, you have something to hold on to...

...whatever that means.

Nuclear Unicorn

(19,497 posts)
25. If abuse and negelect are so prevelant why would we open the door to this?
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:45 PM
Jul 2014

Especially in cultures with arranged marriages.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
30. For two reasons.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:54 PM
Jul 2014

1) Polygamists have less reason to hide, and therefore will be more open to scrutiny.

2) Abuse and neglect happen in monogamous marriages too. Abusive people are abusive people, regardless of how many spouse they have. Paperwork (legal marriage) doesn't make someone abusive.

Especially in cultures with arranged marriages.


I think marriage should be for consenting adults.
 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
36. It would take a radical reordering of our legal system
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 05:03 PM
Jul 2014

to make that work, and in the process would really and truly end the institiution of marriage as we know it.

That certainly isn't warranted to appease a bunch of people clinging to primitive, patriarchal belief systems like the assclown on Sister Wives.

Pholus

(4,062 posts)
46. Out of all the arguments, worrying about making a judges life difficult doesn't concern me.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 06:09 PM
Jul 2014

The real problem is, the "masters of the universe" have already had us evolve from sole-earner families to more-jobs-than-people families.

Multi-generational households are coming back into existence as elder-care costs become prohibitive. I see that all around me right now and I am planning myself...

So, if CEO's ever make it to their goal of making 1000 times their average worker, you'll probably have to merge the output of ~six people to support a single household.

I don't see why you are standing in the way of "progress."
 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
47. polygamy is not progress, it is primitive.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 06:14 PM
Jul 2014

and it's a lot more than making judges' work schedule less convenient.

anyhoo, no we won't be implementing sharia or mormon fundamentalism any time soon, so polygamy will remain outside the law.

Pholus

(4,062 posts)
75. Naw, it's just fun seeing a knee jerk reaction based on religion.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:08 PM
Jul 2014

I'll tell you what I told my tea-partier relatives when they framed gay marriage in a not dissimilar way: Whatever social organization a group of consenting adults not including me choose for themselves to provide for each other is okay. I will not let my biases turn me into a hypocrite. Leave me alone in my personal affairs and I'll leave you alone as long as nobody is getting hurt.

You are correct that the narrow strains of polygamy with the strong religious background has demonstrated harm, but you can't credibly broad brush all polyamorous relationships or group marriages the same way (or even with the same religious motivations). And certainly, our pro-corporate culture is inexorably leading us down a path where eventually we might have to consider larger domestic partnerships simply to make all the bills work out so that the 0.01% can buy yacht number twelve.

Now as far as requiring radical reforms of our legal system it seems that once again the Dutch appear to be ahead of the US. They seem to have a working system of cohabitation relationships defining property rights and responsibilities for children for groups of two or more people. It wouldn't take much more to make a similar system adding the last few benefits reserved for our religious-based definition of marriage.




 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
88. Given that demand for polymarriage is exclusively the domain
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 11:12 PM
Jul 2014

of extreme fundamentalists and a few other odd cases with no cognizable claims of discrimination or suffering from bias, don't hold your breath.

People are free to have all kinds of sex they want with other consenting adults. But, the legal system is not going to be reconfigured to cater to those who want the state to recognize their harems.

Pholus

(4,062 posts)
114. Only one more thing is needed to make this discussion complete...
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 07:12 AM
Jul 2014

You simply have to make a slippery slope analogy next -- you know, claiming that the legal institution would be weakened if it were allowed -- like it is opening the door to "man on dog" marriage or something like that.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
49. You think the judge's life is the only one who would be miserable??
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 06:22 PM
Jul 2014

SMH.

The children are the ones who suffer.

Clearly you've only ever been involved in divorces that ended amicably or contract dissolutions that proceeded without acrimony.

Remember more than 50% of American marriages end in divorce so putting one's head in the sand about the ramifications of the law as it pertains to marriage is pretty sad.

Trying to confuse the issue with "multi-generational" households is disingenuous at best and nothing like splitting up a family unit.

Pholus

(4,062 posts)
83. Yes, the children are doomed to suffer.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:50 PM
Jul 2014

They suffer in straight marriages, they suffer in gay marriages, they suffer with single parents, they will suffer if they live with grandparents or foster parents or adoptive parents.

So your vigorous head shaking seem to be pointless because in the end, it comes down to the quality and decency of the people who entered into a partnership far more than the number or roles of the people.

The moral is choose your partners damned carefully.

P.S. If you got confused about why "multi-generational" households were relevant to a discussion of alternate formats for families please just sleep on it and get back to me.

StevieM

(10,500 posts)
65. I've only seen the show a handful of times, but I thought I heard that Kory Brown is a supporter
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 08:03 PM
Jul 2014

of same sex marriage rights.

I'm not really sure what my point is. I just thought that it was worth noting.

get the red out

(13,466 posts)
33. Legalized slavery for women
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 04:56 PM
Jul 2014

But not for men apparently.

I would fight this with the last breath of my body, and if I had to vote Republican for the rest of my life to combat it, I would. This would be the issue that would make me totally break from the Democratic Party if it were to ever endorse it, despite being a liberal in virtually everything.

This is not equality, this is endorsing women being possessions of men. Now I guess it's coming from both sides, the left and the right. Endorsing polygamy could make me hate the left worse than I hate the Tea Party. The left will be the side of worse misogyny than Hobby Lobby. No young girl raised in a mess like that is going to grow up thinking she's worth a DAMN as a human being, she will see her as more of a possession than a family pet, her only worth as a brood mare to her fucking MASTER.

FUCK YOU ALL, MISOGYNISTS! I don't care what side you claim to be on. If the left goes this way I will be going the opposite.

Polygamous males are women hating beasts, none of them are fit to .........

ProudToBeBlueInRhody

(16,399 posts)
38. Calm yourself, this is a canary in a coal mine
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 05:09 PM
Jul 2014

The article is pure navel gazing.

The amount of liberals, or anyone for that matter in the mainstream who'd support polygamy is so miniscule, it's insane to worry about it.

I still find it funny that people want to rail on and on about anything related to marriage and it's "tradition" and threats to said tradition as if it was never essentially a sexist tradition to begin with.

get the red out

(13,466 posts)
120. "calm yourself" nothing sexist in that suggestion, right?
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 09:03 AM
Jul 2014

Seriously? Am I "hysterical"? Maybe it's because of "menopause"?

I know very well that the mainstream would not go for polygamy; however remaining silent on the subject when it's brought up is akin to when people told me to "calm down" the religious right will never oppose birth control, they are "just" after abortion.

I despise the Religious Right, but suggesting polygamy makes them look women-friendly by comparison.

ProudToBeBlueInRhody

(16,399 posts)
128. No mainstream liberal or Democrat has suggested such a thing
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 03:55 PM
Jul 2014

That's why you should remain calm. You sounded like you were signing your party disaffiliation papers as you were typing over something that is internet filling bullshit from a writer with nothing better to write about. I'm sure Facebook conservatives would love to claim Obama is signing a constitutional amendment to legalize it as we speak.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
44. Monogomous marriage was legalized slavery for women.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 05:37 PM
Jul 2014

First-wave feminists spoke about this at length, and the second wave also spoke about this. Most of the polygamous situations we hear about are pretty bad, especially those involving religious communities that close themselves off, so I understand your objection. However, not all plural marriages are like that. The oppression usually comes from the religious beliefs, as opposed to the bureaucratic institution of marriage.

get the red out

(13,466 posts)
118. It's polygamy I oppose
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 08:59 AM
Jul 2014

I don't care who people sleep with. It is the idea that men will have multiple wives yet women will not get the right to have multiple husbands, polyandry. Generally polyandry isn't mentioned.

I can certainly understand why earlier feminists opposed marriage altogether. But they did not suggest the far worse option of polygamy as a solution.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
124. You're thinking of polygyny.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 02:31 PM
Jul 2014

The word "Polygamy" is gender neutral. A polygamous marriage could be three or more men, three or more women, or any combination of three or more people.

Polygyny is one man with multiple women.

Polyandry is one women with multiple men.

I don't know if all men or all women have a term.

get the red out

(13,466 posts)
125. The article implies
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 02:38 PM
Jul 2014

one man and multiple women; she doesn't bring up any other arrangement. I am addressing what was brought up by the author in the article. Also polygamy is often used as a synonym of polygyny.

Lancero

(3,003 posts)
51. So, jumping from one evil to the next?
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 06:28 PM
Jul 2014

Seems a bit odd for one in support of womens rights to outright say "I'll go Republican", considering how they are currently working to dismantle their rights.

get the red out

(13,466 posts)
117. Not really
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 08:57 AM
Jul 2014

Not when one is desperate to oppose absolute slavery and even worse devaluation of women than the Republicans are after.

Lancero

(3,003 posts)
53. Most people are pointing out that this would be a unsortable legal mess...
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 06:36 PM
Jul 2014

And point to how messy some monogamous marriages are.

But here's the thing - Multiple marriages can create a legal mess as well. That is, remarrying. So, if polygamy should be illegal just because it's a pain in the ass for judges to arbitrate who gets what when a divorce happens, couldn't the same be said for remarrying (after a point)?

Response to Lancero (Reply #53)

dilby

(2,273 posts)
55. If they want to willingly live like that then that is their problem.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 06:41 PM
Jul 2014

I have friends who are polyamorous and swear by it but it's not for me. I was married once before and will never make that mistake again, let alone marry multiple people.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
57. No.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 07:10 PM
Jul 2014

What a stupid idea! Look at how the older wealthier men who practice this get all the young women's parents to give their young, nubile daughters to them, leaving the young men to get run out of town so their wives don't run off with a young guy she is in love with. How the fuck does that make sense?

Those dudes usually don't marry a pack of women their ages who have experience with men. They normally marry teenage girls. Who do not want them. Then they rape their wives. Awesome.

This article is as argument for taking young women's lives away from them and enslaving them. Then their kids suffer the bullying and psychological torture from peers at school.

Read some stories from ex wives who ran from this life before you promote slavery for women.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
60. Does a polyamorous gay relationship status "enslave women?"
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 07:51 PM
Jul 2014

I'm just wondering if your reservations come from how polyamorous relationships have been exploited by patriarchal societies or if you feel there is something deeply fundamental to having multiple partners that "enslaves women."

What if the polyamory is between gay men? How does that enslave women?

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
62. I can't speak for bravenak but the OP is about women in heterosexual marriages
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 07:56 PM
Jul 2014

Not gay men in "relationships".



Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
64. If we are talking about legalizing polygamy, in today's society, that means gay, straight and bi.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 08:02 PM
Jul 2014

Which is why I find the arguments against polygamy or polyamory because of one aspect of exploitative versions to be rather odd.

I think these doubts stem from the issue of male domination and not from an issue with the fundamentals of polygamy or polyandry.

That isn't to say that there can't be criticism of polyamorous relationships. I just don't think that "it enslaves women" is remotely coherent.

 

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)
67. Nope. Disagree. Sadly too many states still don't recognize gay marriages
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 08:09 PM
Jul 2014

And your post was specifically about gay "relationships", not marriage.

That said, its a fact in today's society, women and children ARE the ones most exploited in polygamous marriages. The females are subjugated to male domination, typically married off as young as 12 years old, and the male children especially are dealt a particularly abusive blow when they are thrown out of the family (and their society) once they reach puberty.

This isn't a gay/straight issue imho.



Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
69. I'm using gay or bi polyamory as an example of how you don't understand your own argument.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 08:18 PM
Jul 2014

What you're saying is that in order to combat exploitation of women, we have to keep polygamy illegal. Which is kind of like saying that in order to combat HIV/AIDS we have to keep sodomy illegal. Not only does such an argument reflect a deep ignorance of the subject, it is logically unsound.

If polygamy becomes legal, it will follow after gay marriage. I think that is a reasonable assumption to make based on the fact that gay marriage will be legal in the vast majority of states, if not all of them, very soon. And polygamy is still a deeply mistrusted institution. So, if we are talking about the future of legalized polygamy, it will be pretty far into the future, and it will be the gay, straight and bi kind; in other words, all forms of polygamy involving consenting adults.

If we consider polygamy within this perspective, we begin to understand that the arguments against the exploitation of women are arguments against the exploitation of women and not against polygamy as an institution.

As I've said before, there can be criticism involving the dynamics of a relationship involving more than two people. But that argument has to be fundamental to the relationship structures that are necessary and not just possible in polygamy.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
63. I have no problem with polyamory.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 07:59 PM
Jul 2014

Fuck who you want to fuck. I was speaking of polygamy as normally practiced in reality where we live.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
66. Okay, but marital spousal abuse is normally practiced where you live.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 08:04 PM
Jul 2014

Are you now going to be against all marriage because of the prevalence of violence in such relationships?

That would be the only consistent argument based on your statements.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
68. Oh, here you go with this shit.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 08:11 PM
Jul 2014

What the hell are you on about?

I said nothing about violence. Just old men marrying packs of young girls. Polygamy.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
70. And a husband beating his wife is not the only form of monogamy.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 08:21 PM
Jul 2014

Just as a man marrying young girls is not the only form of polygamy.

What I'm saying is your arguments against the exploitation and subjugation of women are not arguments against the fundamental structure of polygamy. They are arguments against the exploitation and subjugation of women, period.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
71. A husband beating his wife is not monogamy. It is assault and battery.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 08:31 PM
Jul 2014

Try not to conflate the two issues. I was speaking of polygamy as practiced in the United States. I was not speaking of the violence that may occur therein.


My argument is that as practiced, young women are forced into marriage with old men against their will, while young men are left to be run out of town. Google it.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
72. You're the one conflating the practices of a misogynist religious sect with ALL polygamy.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 08:40 PM
Jul 2014

Being a long time resident of Arizona and being that I was raised in a deeply LDS community, I am arguably in a better position than almost anyone here to understand contemporary issues associated with forced polygamous marriage in the United States. I don't need to Google it because I know more about it than you.

Let's shift back to the issue. You're speaking of polygamy as practiced. Which is not an argument against the fundamental structure of a polygamy but an argument against the way it is popularly practiced. Do you understand how those two things are different?

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
76. As long as you understand you're being a reactionary...
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:10 PM
Jul 2014

And that you're really only helping yourself when you act as such.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
77. As long as you realize that women do not earn as much as men and live in a misogynistic world.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:19 PM
Jul 2014

If the power structure was fair between men and women, it could work in 'theory', but our society is not set up in a way to prevent harm and abuse towards women or children, and we cannot stop the backward practices that the religious element bring into the mix. In our country most plural marriages are religious in nature, something that enforces the power and position of men controlling women and women expected to be obedient.

Now secular polyamory is fine with me, along with swinging and non committed casual sex between two willing partners. As polygamy is practiced today in our society, men have the power and are the ones who mainly have the multiple spouses, and as practiced the woman doesn't have the power to disagree or prevent a new person coming into the relationship, they are expected to grin and bear it and obey. Not cool as practiced in our nation and in most polygamous relationships. You may find aberrations in some nations, but they are not the standard or the norm. We have to achieve equality between the sexes before the idea can even be thought to have a chance of working.


Like i said, the practice is horrible, so fuck the theory.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
81. Hold up just a second. Are you trying to argue that the free-love movement isn't misogynist?
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:43 PM
Jul 2014

That casual sex and "swinging" as diffuse institutions are not used ALL THE TIME to subjugate, humiliate and violate women?

I really honestly haven't the slighted clue how your positions in anyway form a coherent narrative. They express double standards and ignorance, despite being used as a supposed "protection" for women.

We have to achieve equality between the sexes before the idea can even be thought to have a chance of working.


This is what you don't seem to understand. You will not gain equitability or equality through the regulation of the female body and the actions of women by legal prohibition. Legal prohibition is the very minimum of societal restrictions which cannot enact an agenda more advanced than the least level of physical or psychic protection. Thus, legal prohibition should be used only to protect against deeply destructive acts.

Otherwise, the very legal structure you seem to cling to becomes a mechanism in the subjugation of women. There is nothing liberating in the act of legal prohibition. Thinking the opposite, that legally prohibiting something can by itself liberate a person or a group of people, is exceptionally dangerous because it gives in blindly to the codification of female subjugation.

This isn't to say that legalizing an act is necessarily liberating either. Because the whole of society is formed under social standards, the only way to meaningfully liberate a group is through the transformation of our social minds.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
85. I understand exactly what you're saying and doing. You arbitrarily prohibit some institutions...
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 11:01 PM
Jul 2014

while backing others because prohibiting one makes you feel better.

This is quite literally the underlying psychology of scapegoating. When someone cannot address the true pathology, they divert to something which isn't so terrifying.

I'm not going to argue that legalizing polygamy will liberate women because legal regulation is not the way to liberate subjugated groups. Which is also exactly why I don't believe prohibiting polygamy will liberate women.

In the analysis of what oppresses a group, the question that should be asked first is "what socially and legally endorsed institutions are complicit?" Those institutions which "get a pass" because they are deemed socially acceptable are precisely the institutions which do the most harm.

If you want to talk about what kind of marriage is singularly most oppressive against women in the country, it is the kind which is socially acceptable; monogamous, heterosexual ("traditional&quot marriage. That isn't to say that there is something essential about monogamous, heterosexual marriage which is wrong. Just the opposite, we have to evaluate how we justify, implicitly or explicitly, oppression through legally sanctioning socially accepted institutions.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
90. You have yet to justify the legal prohibition of polygamy.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 11:25 PM
Jul 2014

You have, however, made a fine point against marrying and raping children, and oppressing adult women. Good, you have some sort of moral compass. The key is not trying to regulate social attitudes through legal prohibition. It doesn't work.

I don't have to demonstrate to you that legalizing polygamy will benefit women because prohibition is socially constructed. We draw action into our ethical or legal stance. Devoid of our input, actions take place completely free from ethical or legal consideration. Thus, in order to draw an act into the realm of prohibited, you must justify its prohibition.

Outside of the secluded religious sects which endorse the marriage and rape of children (who don't seem to have been deterred from being pedophiles and abusers despite polygamy being illegal), what part of polygamy is so ethically scandalous that it must be prohibited?

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
91. The practice of polygamy as PRACTICED is my problem.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 11:30 PM
Jul 2014

The inequality between the sexes enables abuse by older men and oppressive fathers. Also, it is often combined with a religious misogynistic element which promotes the idea of men owning their spouses. In addition, it is most often practiced by men having multiple spouses, while the women hold subservient roles. You are speaking of the theory and i am speaking of how your theory most often gets practiced in the United States. The inequality between the sexes must be fixed first . It may work in a controlled environment, but we do not live in a controlled environment.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
92. I think that regulating social attitudes through legal regulation is actually the true fantasy.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 11:40 PM
Jul 2014

It completely disregards the fact that popular discourse of power and knowledge is amplified through legal regulation.

We have to understand that legal regulation, either through prohibition or legalization, is not inherently liberating at all. Just as sex or power discourse, be it prohibitive or proliferative, is not inherently liberating.

I am very Foucauldian on the the discourse of power and power relations. Focusing on the legality of polygamy when discussing child marriage, pedophilia and female oppression is exactly the discourse necessary to reinforce the corrupt power structure.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
94. The fantasy is taking emotions out of the situation and expecting people to behave reasonably.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 11:46 PM
Jul 2014

Even if you take out the marrying of children, which will definitely occur, since it is already occurring; you are still left with the unfair power structure and the sexist society who will shame the women and slap the men on the backs. Add to that the jealousy and the fact that most in our nation are not as highly educated as you and will not be able to separate their emotions from the practice, leading to even more divorce, with even more people involved. You are seeing the issue from a very academic perspective in our layman's world. Women will be abused and children will continue to be traded to old ass men, just as they have since the beginning of time. Just worse since those who are abusive get to have as many women as they want to abuse.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
96. So you've just completely discounted your prohibition argument.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 11:55 PM
Jul 2014

By arguing that these unjust acts will continue. These acts exist now even as polygamy is illegal. They will continue to exist if/when polygamy is made legal.

The explicit declaration of legal regulation ("This act is illegal&quot makes us falsely believe such an institution is what influences social attitudes. It is precisely the implicit, unsaid regulation which is responsible for social attitude.

This is why the legal "slippery slope" argument is inherently flawed. It believes that legal sanction is the most fundamental influence on social attitudes and action. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Gravitycollapse

(8,155 posts)
102. Again, abuse is deeply embedded in monogamous marriage.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:21 AM
Jul 2014

We've come back to the core of my argument. Which is that you're scapegoating the terror of just how deeply institutionalized abuse is in monogamous marriage. You want that easy target and you've found one in polygamy.

 

bravenak

(34,648 posts)
104. Nope. Notice how it's usually the men with multiple partners in reality as opposed to your theory.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:30 AM
Jul 2014

Notice how it is mostly men arguing FOR polygamy and women against. It's because the men get the power and the women get to obey. And it is normally a religious thing used to hold women ad chattel.

It is the indoctrination of subservience in women that i abhor. When i see a secular polyamorous relationship it lacks the biblical factor and the women aren't forced to be there. The actual practice of polygamy in our world is not like in my fantasy novels.

In our world children are given to old men by force in many instances into a house-full of abused women and children. They are like little abuse/rape factories. .

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
73. I have a friend who considers himself an Extreme Liberal,
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 08:42 PM
Jul 2014

and he has been trying for the last 6 months to convince me:

1. I need to get a mail order bride from China or the Philippines.

2. Arranged marriages are superior; marrying for love is a harmful "fad."

He's on the record stating that polygamy might work, but polyamory can never work.

Suffice to say that his logic is questionable.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
89. Your friend doesn't sound like a liberal.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 11:17 PM
Jul 2014

Sounds like someone born in the Middle Ages. I would not take his advice.

ancianita

(36,060 posts)
80. Show improvement in the quality of women's lives besides the lessening of male predation, please.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 10:41 PM
Jul 2014

This is a pathetic argument that attempts to validate the economic, religious, social and legal inequality between the sexes.

Girls and women who want equality should kick this stupidity to the curb for good.

get the red out

(13,466 posts)
121. Thank you!
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 09:06 AM
Jul 2014

I think we are few and far between in this thread who give a DAMN about equal status of women.

krispos42

(49,445 posts)
86. For this to be done...
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 11:07 PM
Jul 2014

...it would have to be under the condition that all spouses need to be in agreement for the marriage to be enlarged, and that all people in the marriage are married to each other.


If Amy marries Bob, Amy cannot just go out and marry Charlie at some point in the future. Doing so, creating a situation where Amy is married simultaneously to Bob and Charlie with neither of them having a say in their sharing of rewards, duties, and responsibilities of marriage to Amy is unfair to Bob and Charlie. Likewise, if Charlie, while married to Amy, decides to also marry Darla, this is unfair to Amy.

What happens when there is death, injury, end-of-life decisions, inheiritence, life-insurance payments, division of property? How about divorce and child custody?


It would have to be equal. Amy and Bob consent to get married. Amy wants to marry Charlie as well, but Bob would have to agree to form an equal, three-way marriage. Essentially, the Amy/Bob marriage would marry Charlie, forming a single Amy/Bob/Charlie marriage. Amy is married to Bob and Charlie; Bob is married to Amy and Charlie; Charlie is married to Amy and Bob.


If Charlie wants to marry Darla, then Charlie has to convince Amy and Bob to let Darla into their marriage to form a four-way marriage: Amy, Bob, and Charlie all marry Darla. Amy is now married to Bob, Charlie, and Darla; Bob is married to Amy, Charlie, and Darla, Charlie is now married to Amy, Bob, and Darla, and Darla is married to Amy, Bob, and Charlie.


I think this would be needed to protect people from abuse by their spouses and to more clearly delineate responsibilities and privileges, such as child custody and such.

I think it would also effectively limit most polyamorous arrangements to 3-way marriages as a practical matter. Although I can imagine the wealthy trying to use this to somehow cheat the tax man.

XemaSab

(60,212 posts)
93. I can see the argument that women have more freedom under this system
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 11:45 PM
Jul 2014

Hate cleaning but your sisterwife is into it? She can clean.

Love cooking while everything your sisterwife cooks is charred? You can cook.

Think domestic servitude is bullshit while your sisterwife wants to be a SAHM? She can do all that shit while you go to work and provide another income.

 

Manifestor_of_Light

(21,046 posts)
95. The Supremes ruled polygamy illegal in 1890.
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 11:53 PM
Jul 2014

They told Utah they couldn't join the Union unless they made polygamy illegal.

Also, it oppresses women and children and would cause all sorts of legal nightmares in case of divorce. And yes I am a lawyer and have been through a totally hellish divorce, and later legal skirmishes after the divorce with the ex.

One of those people who told me I had to "earn" his respect. And of course, he thought I was never good enough.

Bad idea.

TheKentuckian

(25,026 posts)
97. Go ahead, how consenting adults wish to arrange their lives and obligations to each other
Wed Jul 2, 2014, 11:57 PM
Jul 2014

is none of my affair.

Puzzledtraveller

(5,937 posts)
98. I'm cool with it
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:00 AM
Jul 2014

Defining what combination of consenting adults constitutes a marriage relationship is bad business and should not be the governments business.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,321 posts)
115. So you're saying no marriage should be legally recognised?
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 08:31 AM
Jul 2014

The government should not pay any attention to any marriage, which is just a private agreement between however many parties want to call it 'marriage'?

muriel_volestrangler

(101,321 posts)
123. "Defining what combination of consenting adults constitutes a marriage relationship ...
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 10:41 AM
Jul 2014

... is bad business and should not be the governments business"

If a government cannot define what a marriage is, then how can it recognise it in any way? If Mitt Romney and his wife get to say that today they are married to all of their kids, and so can transfer as much of their wealth as they want to them tax free, you're happy with that? What if Sheldon Adelson 'marries' Jeb Bush, transfers a billion dollars to him, and then 'divorces' him? Or marries the CEO of a construction firm, and hands over, tax free, the cost of his latest building project?

If you say defining marriage should not be the government's business, then the government can't give any rights to it.

 

LittleBlue

(10,362 posts)
103. Consenting adults should be able to marry anyone they want
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 12:24 AM
Jul 2014

Luckily, no one prosecutes that shit anymore so polygamists can lead their lifestyle even though they can't register the marriage.

Just another example of the state policing victimless crimes

libodem

(19,288 posts)
108. If it is a free choice
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 01:31 AM
Jul 2014

I have no problem with what floats anybody's boat. If it is an underage arranged marriage I have more problems with the concept.

nomorenomore08

(13,324 posts)
109. While I consider it more or less an entirely separate issue from same-sex marriage equality
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 02:45 AM
Jul 2014

I'm not opposed to legal recognition of polyamorous arrangements. There's no reason why people in such relationships, or any children they may have, shouldn't have the same legal security and benefits as married couples.

ZombieHorde

(29,047 posts)
127. I don't want to marry multiple people.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 02:46 PM
Jul 2014

I just think organizations shouldn't be illegal unless that organization is doing someone very harmful. Families are organizations, in my view.

Xolodno

(6,395 posts)
129. I don't see why it should be illegal.
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 05:39 PM
Jul 2014

See a lot of arguments on issues of divorce and they are valid. But to simplify it....Marriage can be considered sort of a Family Trust of sorts. Lets say there are three spouses, a fourth one can enter the "Marriage" if all three agree (like wise even if there are two...both must agree). Also make prenuptials mandatory, in regard to custody of future children, property, etc. Establish a minimum age for Polygamy (make it harder for 40 year old fruit loops to take a naive 16 year old as a spouse).

As for divorces being ugly....I would think the vast majority are.

....Just had a weird thought


Lets say a male has 3 wives....and then gets caught cheating. According to the contract of he marriage, whomever cheats gets "divorced" from the marriage. You can have an arrangement where the three women remain married.

RainDog

(28,784 posts)
130. I won't support polygamy until wealth is equally distributed
Thu Jul 3, 2014, 05:51 PM
Jul 2014

just as I won't support the death penalty, now, because racism is the underlying cause for sentencing disparities, etc. and no one should be put to death in this nation of the basis of jury decision when the nation is outright racist.

So, until there is income redistribution so that women are not forced into marriage for a number of reasons, I cannot support polygamy because the practice of it will be sexist because this nation is outright sexist.

Response to ZombieHorde (Reply #132)

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