So let's see if I understand this correctly

[Gman]

Two guys both have concealed carry permits legally. They're both carrying. They get into a shoving match in a bar. They take it outside to the parking lot. They both feel they're in fear of their lives. They both "stand their ground", pull out their guns and start shooting. The "winner" is not charged. The loser is buried.

I think that sums it up. Just like the old West.

I guess the shootout at the OK Corral was heavy handed government violating the rights of the poor Clantons' to have a concealed gun and stand their ground.

So where does it end? The wingnuts will say when everyone carries and everyone stands their ground.

white is black, green is red, the sky is purple.

[RKP5637]

1. Yep, we're regressing, not progressing. n/t

[cr8tvlde]

2. No Longer the Beacon of Civilization

We murder our citizens in the name of the Death Penalty, allow our citizens to murder each other in the name of Stand Your Ground, yet insist that anyone suspected of a traffic violation or whatever be subject to the violation of a strip search.

The word "barbarian" comes to mind.

[RKP5637]

3. Sometimes I wonder if post WWII times were an anomaly and now

we're regressing back to the norm. Depressing thought, but sometimes I do wonder, there are so many WTF's anymore. I really see an inability of the US to prepare for and manage the future, other than to pile money on the top few percent. And compounded with that, a "barbarian" culture.

[Turbineguy]

4. The wingnuts

want to show that WWII was fought for nothing.

[RKP5637]

8. There's sure a lot of truth in that statement! It says a lot! n/t

[Initech]

28. Maybe that explains why they compare everything to Hitler.

[Gman]

31. I've been thinking about this all day

Trying to find a reason why it's not true. I'm unsuccessful so far.

[gateley]

11. +1! nt

[unblock]

5. you don't get it at all.

the "winner" is not charged IF he's white.

[Gman]

16. Duh!!!

[uponit7771]

23. +1

[Honeycombe8]

6. Carrying guns is either illegal in places selling liquor, or bars usu. post signs prohibiting that.

Guns and booze are a dangerous mix.

[Gman]

7. I'm sure the gun lobby is working on that

can't be too safe in a bar, ya know...

[Honeycombe8]

21. I'm in TX, a state with concealed licenses. There are few places you're allowed to carry in....

most places, it's either illegal or the businesses prohibit it. It's almost pointless to have a carry license. You can't take it into a store, an office building, a federal bldg like the post office, bars, etc. But you could, like Zimmerman, carry it on you as you walk or drive around your neighborhood. But I don't think you need a carry license to do that, anyway. Not sure.

[oldhippie]

34. I'd have to agree that you're not sure .......

..... being almost everything you said is wrong. There are only a few places you can't carry with a CHL. Schools, voting places, federal buildings, courts and bars (that derive over 51% of their income from sale of on-premises sale of alcohol) come to mind. There is no restriction on stores or businesses unless they post a specific sign (PC 30.06 sign), and the only ones I have ever seen around here are in a couple of banks. And, you DO need a CHL to carry a handgun while walking or driving (with some exceptions) around your neighborhood.

I'll give you that you did get the federal building and post office right. And some bars, though not all.

If you don't know much about a subject, usually better not to guess or make stuff up.

[Honeycombe8]

37. I can't think of a single business that I haven't seen a sign posted telling entrants that carrying

is prohibited on the premises. My office bldg has it, my company within the building has it, the restaurant I went to today has it, etc.

Seriously, you can't carry a concealed weapon in almost any place these days.

No, my dear, you do not need a license to have a gun in your car, as long as its in a visible location. I know this firsthand from the policemen who stopped me for a possible traffic violation, and saw the 22 on the passenger's seat. You can't have it concealed in the glove compartment, though, and you can't carry it across state lines. Use your common sense. How would you get to your carry-license class or the shooting range to practice so you can get your carry license, if you have to have a carry license. That's some Catch 22.

No need to take a sarcastic attitude, when you clearly don't know what you're talking about.

As you admit in your post, what I said in my post was correct. Federal bldgs and property, bars, all places with signs prohibiting it (almost all businesses), Target, WalMart, banks, etc. Almost any place that will have people in it, they have made sure they don't have people coming in with concealed weapons.

But your house, your car, your person (as long as its visible) even while walking around your neighborhood....all legal. And none of those requires a carry license.

I thank you, my father thanks you, and my .38 thanks you. That's okay. I accept your apology for being unnecessarily rude and talking about a subject you are unfamiliar with.

[oldhippie]

38. Oh dear, I don't even know where to start ......

Last edited Thu Apr 5, 2012, 05:19 PM - Edit history (1)

So I guess we'll go from the beginning:

I assume you know, of course, that the little "no guns" signs, the red circle with the gun inside and a line through it, has no force and no effect on holders of a CHL? And that a sign saying no guns allowed has no effect on a CHL holder? In order for a business to provide notice that it does not allow a holder of a TX CHL to bring a handgun into the premises the business must post a sign with very specific requirements.

Texas PC Sec 30.06

New Provision Added 9/1/97:
Sec. 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of Article 4413(29ee), Revised Statutes, on property of another without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written communication.(c) In this section:
(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section 30.05(b).
(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by Section 46.035(f).
(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06, Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed handgun), a person licensed under Article 4413(29ee), Revised Statutes (concealed handgun law), may not enter this property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.

That sign is specific, big, and very noticible. No other sign can serve to prevent a CHL holder from carrying in a private business.

Seriously, you can't carry a concealed weapon in almost any place these days.

In my town of about 35,000 people, I have seen only three of the PC 30.06 signs. In the three main bank buildings in town. Most get around that by banking at a bank branch in a grocery store, which has no restrictions.

No, my dear, you do not need a license to have a gun in your car, as long as its in a visible location. I know this firsthand from the policemen who stopped me for a possible traffic violation, and saw the 22 on the passenger's seat. You can't have it concealed in the glove compartment, though, and you can't carry it across state lines. Use your common sense. How would you get to your carry-license class or the shooting range to practice so you can get your carry license, if you have to have a carry license. That's some Catch 22.

Au contraire, my dear. You have that exactly backwards. And, BTW, the very LAST person you want to ask or depend upon for advice about gun laws is a policeman. If you ask 3 police officers about a gun law, you will generally get at least three answers, all of them wrong. Actually, the new law requires that the handgun in a vehicle MUST BE CONCEALED, and not in plain view. Carrying it in the glove compartment or center console is recommended. Again, Texas Penal Code Sec 46.02 would be your friend. I don't have time to excerpt the PC right now, but here is a quick summary: (edited to remove shakey link.)

And you carry your handgun to the range in your glove compartment, center console, truck, range bag, or anywhere else where the handgun IS NOT IN PLAIN VIEW.

As you admit in your post, what I said in my post was correct. Federal bldgs and property, bars, all places with signs prohibiting it (almost all businesses), Target, WalMart, banks, etc. Almost any place that will have people in it, they have made sure they don't have people coming in with concealed weapons.

Correct on Federal properties. But I have been carrying with a CHL for 14 years now, pretty much daily. I go to Walmart, Target, grocery stores, Barnes & Nobles, shopping malls and businesses all over the state. The only places I have ever seen the 30.06 sign that prevents me from carrying in that business is at some banks, and the Hilton hotel in downtown Austin. (And they cleverly hide the sign at the lobby door behind all the luggage carts so it is not visible and wouldn't be regarded as posted "prominently" at the entrance.) A real "bar" has a slightly different sign (the 51% sign) and I have seen a few on Sixth Street in Austin. But I can go into a Chili's or Appleby's with a bar with no restriction if they don't post the 30.06 sign. I have lunch every Thurs with a group of friends including LEOs at a Mexican restaurant. I can even have a couple of beers with lunch as long as I don't become intoxicated. So I refute your "almost anyplace that will have people in it" comment.

But your house, your car, your person (as long as its visible) even while walking around your neighborhood....all legal. And none of those requires a carry license.

Oh dear. Go ahead and walk around your neighborhood openly carrying a handgun and see how well that works out for you. "Open Carry" is not legal in Texas, and a big point of controversy among many. There is no carry license for open carry.


No need to take a sarcastic attitude, when you clearly don't know what you're talking about.
I thank you, my father thanks you, and my .38 thanks you. That's okay. I accept your apology for being unnecessarily rude and talking about a subject you are unfamiliar with.

I think the Texas DPS Concealed Handgun Unit would be very disappointed to hear that you don't think I know what I am talking about or know the laws. They have seen fit to allow me to teach it for the last eight years or so. I've also been an NRA certified Handgun and Personal Protection instructor for over a decade.

Be careful out there with that .38, sweetie.

[doc03]

12. I think they changed it in Ohio recently as long as you are not drinking, not sure

but I know they were trying to pass it.

[jpak]

25. Not so in many states - the GOP/NRA/ALEC trifecta has been passing gun nut laws everywhere

over the last few years.

please try to keep up.

yup

[vr94rx7]

9. I ccw where ever i go. When you carry you have a responsibility to deescalate if you can.

I wouldn't be at the bar in the first place. If i was i would apologize and leave he area.

[Gman]

10. Because you're responsible

But the scenario I outlined, maybe not in a bar, but anywhere could have that potential outcome, at least in theory.

[jpak]

26. So you are OK with retreating when confronted - yes?

n/t

[oldhippie]

35. I would be OK with that option ....

I also carry a weapon daily. I am certainly OK with having the option to retreat when confronted. Hopefully that would always work. Sometimes it might not.

[StarsInHerHair]

13. they are bring back the DUELS, see Jezebel starring Bette Davis

they want men & teen boys killing each other. The Right has been fanning the stupid of 3rd World Machismo in the US ever since w stole into office.

[Cleita]

14. Just a little personal experience back in the sixties.

I went to Alaska back when it was barely a state and before the pipeline brought in a bunch of lower 48'ers. Guns were everywhere, people carrying on the streets in the few cities that there were, everyone had one openly in their cars. It was normal mostly to protect from the wildlife attacking you, they said. However, bars were one place that they usually drew the line. Some of the tougher places had a rule to leave your guns in a rack in the foyer before you would be served. So even in the wild west of Alaska back then, it wasn't cool. Drunken arguments were pretty much settled with fist fights not guns.

[Gman]

17. The old "check your guns at the door"

Right our of Tombstone, AZ

[oldhippie]

36. Speaking of Tombstone, AZ, ...

I was stationed at Fort Huachuca, AZ in 1970-72. Just a short drive over to Tombstone. Open carry was legal then, as it is now. Many times on Saturday or Sunday some buddies and I would strap on our pistols (usually .22's at the time), leave the BOQ and head out to the desert to do some plinking. After shooting we would head over to Tombstone and go to a favorite honky tonk saloon called Johnny Ringo's (I wonder if it is still there?) for a few beers. As we walked in we had to show the bartender that the weapons were not loaded, and he hung them up on wooden pegs behind the bar until we left. Nobody ever got shot, nobody ever cared, and nobody ever got in a fight when we were there.

I really liked Arizona. I grew up in rural New York State and had never been much west of the Hudson River until I entered the army. Arizona was like a foreign country at first, but I got used to it.

[robinlynne]

15. well made point.

[Shankapotomus]

18. The more likely scenario

is what if two people who are carrying are both under the false impression the other one is a criminal?

That's basically the Martin case right there, if you discount the probability Zimmerman is guilty of an intentional hate crime. So even if he isn't , the law is still stupid.

[hack89]

19. If it is shown that either or both were aggressors and deliberately escalated the situation

then SYG does not apply.

776.041?Use of force by aggressor.

—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1)?Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2)?Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a)?Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b)?In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.
History.—s. 13, ch. 74-383; s. 1190, ch. 97-102.

[SATIRical]

27. Shhhh! Apparently facts are not permitted in this thread. (nt)

[hobbit709]

20. Actually the OK corral was a turf war between the Earps and the Clantons.

and the Earps ambushed them.

[tjwash]

22. And...the Earps were the reps of the Republican business establishment in the region...

...who all wanted the Clantons, who represented the Democrats and all of the ranch owners of the region, out of the area so that they could seize a monopoly on all the profits coming from the silver mines in the area.

And you are correct...the Earps ambushed the Clantons at the OK corral.

[Gman]

32. But for badges

The Earps were guilty of murder.

[jpak]

24. Correction - the "winner" is not charged if he is white and the "loser" African American

yup

[moriah]

29. At least in AR, can't carry a gun at a bar.

And if you're in Louisiana and your BAC is over 0.05, if you're caught carrying you'll get your permit revoked.

I rather like that little gem, wish that one was on the books in more states.

[Romulox]

30. There is a concept called "mutual combatants" that covers this situation. Self-defense is not

generally available as a defense under such scenarios, nor does the right to "stand one's ground" generally apply when one is a wilfull combatant.

[Gman]

33. And it sounds like both Martin and Zimmerman

May have mutual combatants.