my friend said, "it is never, ever okay for white people to say (n-word)."

[nofurylike]

she continued, "and the worst part of it, is that when you say it quoting someone else, you all always say it with such relish! it's as if you finally get the chance to say it where you can act as if it is not YOU saying it, so you really get off on saying it!"

the other day there was a thread on which that word was written, i think i counted, twenty times. i first thought i ought to write and post this then, but i didn't get a chance to then. the next day, there was another thread with it. today, there is another. maybe others i have not read.

the one loaded with it being left to stand gave permission for the second, and that, the next.

i knew i should post about the first one. the first utterance opened the floodgates for the next nineteen in that thread. so, of course, those would open it for the next and next.

"o! wheeee! i get to say IT!!!! and blame someone else!!!!"

that word (i will stick to saying this about whites saying it) is NEVER, EVER ANYTHING BUT A VULGAR, VILE, HURTFUL ATTACK ON ALL BLACKS.

how do you know it is never appropriate?

because black people have told you it is never appropriate.

so, how do you know when it is appropriate to use, or not?

it never is.

people go, "b-b-b-ut-but-but ... THEEEEEEEEEEY USE IT!!!!" why is is okay for THEEEEEEMMMMM to use it, but i get shit when i do?!!!!!"

well, let me try to put it in a way that white feminists might grasp why john lennon was being a racist prick when he put it in the title of a song that would further divide white feminists from women of color:

i am a d-ke who loves my c--t, but i would do anything in my power to stop anyone from ever, EVER calling YOU or anyone else either word in their vulgar senses; or from ever, EVER using either in those vulgar senses for ANY reason. in fact, if any man quotes me, i expect you to use "c-word." women? well, any woman has the right to determine that about her own personal beloved c--t, or another's she's been assured accepts that.

i hope not to read it on here anymore. it has been scary to see it go this far.

[Schema Thing]

1. oh horseshit. words are just letters arranged in a certain order.

they have the meaning of the person who utters them. Nothing more, and nothing less.


There is nothing liberal or progressive about giving words power so that you can then exercise some perverse authoritarianism against your fellow.

[Ecumenist]

3. Are you black, SCHEMA? Just curious based on your comment.

[roguevalley]

29. I don't like anyone using that word. Some words need to die. That one needs to die.

[Schema Thing]

50. No, but just like my Black friends I've been using words since I was a toddler.

And every word any of us black or white has ever spoken has only ever meant exactly what we, the speaker, meant it to mean.


Believe me, I'm not an idiot about this; I totally understand why Black people don't want White people being cavalier about using the N word*. But when you are among other non-racist people you trust (like when I'm with my Black girlfriend), you can laugh about the ridiculous power people give to words.


*which frankly feels silly for me to type. Like I'm living back with my fundamentalist family and "goddamn" is euphemised as "G-d".


I think a Black person who doesn't have any White friends they'd feel comfortable hearing "N***a-please" from at least in some humorous context, either needs to un-clench or get more white friends.

[Ecumenist]

62. that's a cheeky thing to say to someone like me. I'm a BLACK WOMAN MARRIED to a SOUTHERN

WHITE MAN who heard it used routinely as hate speech and was disgusted by it. So, you have black black friend who have been using that epithet since they were toddlers and so have you and I'm supposed to just believe that that makes perfect sense on any planet in any reality? What black family just allows their small child to use that word on the regular? I have NEVER seen or known of a black family that wasn't seriously dysfunctional use that word with their small children and when I say dysfunctional, I'm talking drugs, domestic violence etc.

YOUR BLACK GIRLFRIEND HAS NO PROBLEM WITH YOU USING THAT WORD, PLAYFULLY OR OTHERWISE??!! Are you seriously trying to tell me that you have a black girlfriend who thinks it's perfectly alright for a man who supposedly is fond of her to use a word that has been historically used to denigrate her people? Wow, I knew I was different but not that different. Where'd you find this woman and why is she away from the Treatment Facility without permission?

[Schema Thing]

75. Where did you get this idea?

"So, you have black black friend who have been using that epithet since they were toddlers "?

I never said anything remotely close to that.

In fact, I've been fairly clear that while "the N word" is the topic of the discussion at hand, I'm talking about all words, and all language.

I said, clear as day, that "every word any of us black or white has ever spoken has only ever meant exactly what we, the speaker, meant it to mean. ".



BTW, are you seriously trying to tell me that you aren't aware that many black people don't give that word the power you give it? No, my girlfriend does not have a problem with me saying it, but then again, I would never say it to hurt anyone, so why would she? In the interest of full disclosure, she's French (racism is a serious problem there, but they don't have the same history with the N word). My previous girlfriend was Black too, and was of the same mind on the matter. In the interest of full disclosure, she's Canadian. My ex wife was half Black, and all American. She too was not offended by the word used in good humor. As you should have noticed (but didn't because you aren't really reading my words) I'm not cavalier about using the word, so it's not like they heard it more than a couple of times from me.

It's nice you are in an interracial relationship, but frankly I think you and your husband need to grow up. Sticks and stones can break your bones, but words can never hurt you - and all that. Tonight, when the kids are asleep, you two should text each other from across the couch the most filthy, racist words you can imagine. Google 'em if you have to. Then make angry grown up love to each other. Eighteen months from now, I'd love to do ya'll some baby pictures.

[Ecumenist]

78. Where did I get that idea? Are you serious? What about this:

"50. No, but just like my Black friends I've been using words since I was a toddler." I didn't make that up. Secondly, I have to honest and say that I just do not nor will I ever believe that a black woman stood there and was okay with you using that name or worse yet, calling her that name, Sorry.

As far as the relationship that my husband I have, we're both human, so although the term interracial is used. it's a misnomer, by far. We have been together for 21 years and married for 11. We're both over 45 years old, dear. We don't have children because of a medical problem with me. Some words aren't necessary to use, especially with some one you love.

[Schema Thing]

89. yeah, I still don't get where you took something I didn't say from something I did say.

It kind of goes to this whole discussion. If I said a word, you should take it in the spirit I spoke it - to the extent you understood that spirit. And when I write words, you should respond to what I actually wrote, not your perverse interpretation of what I wrote.


So, when I say "No, but just like my Black friends I've been using words since I was a toddler" you should not read into that that I am saying I or my black friends have been using the N word since we were toddlers, because, well, that's not what it says. What you should read from that is that, no, I'm not black, but I am EXACTLY LIKE A BLACK person in that I've been using words my whole life, and white black brown blue or orange, every word ever fucking spoken on this planet ONLY HAS THE MEANING THAT THE PERSON SAYING IT MEANS IT TO HAVE.


All the authoritarians in conservative-land and, for that matter, authoritarians-in-liberal's-clothing on DU notwithstanding.

[nofurylike]

92. hoping for better from others is not "authoritarian." nt

[Ecumenist]

94. Sorry Schema, but just because you feel entitled to use hate speech DOES NOT MAKE YOU BLACK or just

like Black . NOTHING WILL EVER make you black until you suddenly wake up one day with a Caramel, Brown, Coffee or Black complexion. See, people like me CAN'T just take this skin off anytime I want, when I get sick of the hatred, suspicion and fear. I can straighten my 3C hair but without multilating surgery and/or bleaching my skin, I walk this path each and every day. The notion that you've can reduce the entirety of being black in America to being able to use words that the VAST MAJORITY of us DO.NOT.USE is cheeky beyond belief! If you believe that that is what shows that you don't really know anything of substance about us.....period.

[Schema Thing]

99. Again, you are refusing to read or reply to my actual words.

You don't get to twist my words. I am indeed EXACTLY LIKE A BLACK PERSON in the sense of having used words my entire life. That's what I said previously, I even stated it another way so as to be crystal clear....and you don't get to change the meaning.

You seem as if you're simply hooked on lecturing people.

For instance this: "The notion that you've can reduce the entirety of being black in America to being able to use words that the VAST MAJORITY of us DO.NOT.USE is cheeky beyond belief!".

You aren't responding to anything that I said, because that sentence doesn't reference any of my words. Seriously "reduce the entirety"??? wtf?

[Ecumenist]

125. Lecturing people? I'm not the only one who are READING YOUR WORDS AND GETTING THE SAME

RESULT! I read AND comprehend what you said and am responding. Do you want me to explain to what I meant? FOR.YOU.TO.CLAIM.THAT..BY.SIMPLY.USING.CERTAIN.WORDS.THAT.DESPITE.POPULAR.OPINION.WOULD.HAVE.MOST.AMERICA.BELIEVE, MOST.BLACK.PEOPLE.DO.NOT.USE!! SOMEHOW.INFERS.UPON.YOU.A.HONORARY.INCLUSION.AS.A.BLACK.MAN.REDUCES.EVERYTHING.THAT.THE.HISTORY.OF.THE.NATION.OF.AMERICAN.BLACKS.HAS.SUFFERED, SURVIVED.AND,TRIUMPHED.OVER!

It's not rocket science, Schema. I have responded and I think that the problem here is that, for whatever reason, you don't understand my words.

[tkmorris]

137. Sorry, but no you don't

I won't pick a side in the little argument you two are having, but the fact is you have repeatedly misunderstood what the other poster is saying. You have argued against what you appear to think he said several times now, each time misunderstanding what it was he actually said.

I suggest you slow down just a tad and read what he is posting more carefully. You can still make the same base argument if you wish (to wit: no white people should ever use that word), but when finding fault with what he says it pays to actually understand what he said first. When you, again and again, argue against something he didn't even say the objective observer can easily begin to think you are doing so on purpose.

Here's a starting point. He said, on his way to making a point a few posts back, that he is like his black friends in the sense that they have both been using words since they were toddlers. Note that he did NOT say he or his friend had been using THAT word since being toddlers (which you claimed he did). NOR did he claim that he thus deserves the status of "honorary inclusion as a black man", or anything remotely like it. Again, something you are claiming he has said.

A newcomer to this conversation could easily get the impression that you are deliberately twisting his words to better make your point. That is NOT a reputation you want to cultivate. Once people get that impression they are unlikely to pay much heed to anything you say, regardless of merit.

[goclark]

117. You got that right! Tell it like it is!

[nofurylike]

107. i inferred the same from "I've been using words since i was a toddler." since most have,

it seemed it could only mean that in this context.

also, it is my take on this that you are the one not hearing what is being expressed to you; that you are speaking from a limited viewpoint that convinces you that it is appropriate for you to decide what others ought to accept of your behavior. many believe that about themselves, but it is actually antisocial, at best.
(and sociopathic at worst.)

i recommend reading about nationalistic race theories. it starts with undermining the dignity of races other than that which considers itself, or intends to become, the national race. after that, genocide is one step easier. look around. we see it all through our history. it was WORDS WORDS WORDS that ENABLED THAT!!!

just words. mein kampf, and so on ....

[Number23]

115. Thank you, Ecumenist. I too am a black woman married to a white man

Not dating. MARRIED. And one of the reasons I love this man is because he is smart, considerate and RESPECTFUL of me, my family and my culture to know that he has NO BUSINESS using that word. EVER.

[jwirr]

165. White here with a sister married to a black man. It bothers me also so you can imagine how it feels

when two of my grandsons use it routinely. They are teens - one writes and records rap music - the other uses it while playing games on the net and talking with other players. Both have a black heritage. They tell me that it does not mean the same thing anymore. They tell me that they are using it to make it meaningless something like the Archie Bunker character with words.

No matter what they think they are doing I think they are contributing to the problem not solving it. This really bothers me but I do not think we are going to be able to change the situation - these teens are stubborn.

[Ecumenist]

181. Some moron came up with the fundamentally flawed idea that using it everyday would reduce it's

maliciousness. It's like saying taking a tablespoon of cyanide a day makes it less poisonous. Crazy.

[jwirr]

187. I agree. And it doesn't help my sister, her husband or their children.

[Number23]

114. Geez Louise

But when you are among other non-racist people you trust (like when I'm with my Black girlfriend), you can laugh about the ridiculous power people give to words.

[EOTE]

162. Why is that deserving of a face palm?

My significant other is black as well and she feels the exact same way. Not everyone has to respond to things in the exact way that you do.

[Number23]

213. So your significant other is okay with people calling her the n word?

And agrees with your apparent belief that "words have no power"?

It's a very good thing that most people know better than to agree with that. It's a very good thing indeed.

[EOTE]

218. She uses it herself.

And as for her being OK with people calling her that, well, it would certainly depend upon the context. She and her brothers use it in a joking manner. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that.

[RobinA]

177. I'm Not Black

I'm female. When I am Queen it will be mandated that all those "loaded" words be uttered at least 100 times a day by everyone. The mandate will be lifted word for word as they lose their power completely.

Cunt, Cunt, Cunt. It means nothing except what we say it means, and if we say it often enough it will mean nothing at all, because its power is in its tabooness.

[Ecumenist]

183. Well, the chance of becoming queen of anything other than a turnip or pumpkin festival

is zero to nil. You keep thinking that. "cunt" doesn't have the tragic history and 10'S OF MILLIONS OF HUMAN BEING'S LIVES LOST, tortured and stolen intertwined in it. You'll NEVER UNDERSTAND THE VISCERAL pain that word holds.

[RobinA]

208. Way To Miss the Point n/m

*

[Ecumenist]

209. Understood completely and realiser you're naive to think that you could become queen of anything

that meant anything and with a a single swipe of your scepter, make an order that once again is MEANINGLESS. If all it took was someone using the word casually, IT.WOULD.HAVE.BEEN.OBSOLETE.OVER.100.YEARS.AGO!

[Cerridwen]

6. gawd-damned straight! (edited)

Last edited Sun Apr 8, 2012, 09:47 PM - Edit history (1)

Fuck George Orwell. What the fuck did he know about words.

War is Peace.

Seriously. Who gives a fuck.

bush's clean air act. Really. Just a bunch of fucking words.

weapons of mass destruction. Words!

Just a bunch of fucking words.

Everyone knows words have no meaning...except what I say they have.

If you don't like it? Grow a thicker skin!

Words!

Bullshit!

The nazis were socialist because they said so.

That godwin guy who said you lose the thread by mentioning the word nazi! Fuck him!

It's just a fucking word!

(edited) Oh yeah, and more word police BS: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002532591

[EOTE]

163. Well said, but I think you're misinformed about Godwin.

Godwin's law doesn't state that the one to first mention Nazis loses the thread. What he said was that the longer an internet discussion takes place, the more likely it is that a comparison to Nazis or Hitler will be made. That was 22 years ago, it seems like a very valid observation.

[Cerridwen]

232. I'm relieved to see another has the same interpretation.

Yours is the interpretation I applied when first reading about "Godwin's Law."

Unfortunately, on many message boards it appears as a "you lose the thread" reply to the post rather than "it's an inevitability as the thread devolves into name calling".

It's good to see I'm not alone.

Thank you.

[nofurylike]

24. i see that to you they are.

i do not have or want the authority to force you to do what is right or kind or good or fair or ....

compassionate

[sudopod]

43. It's not your fault that you're profoundly ignorant of the historical context this word came from,

the one that existed for hundreds of years, the one which ground a dozen generations into the dirt, the one whose authoritarian evil stripped a hundred peoples of their histories, their families ,their cultures, and their very names.

Someone in your youth dropped the ball.

But hey, at least you can be a taboo-bucking badass on the internet! That's a nice consolation prize, right?

[Schema Thing]

52. I'm every bit as aware as you are of the historical context of the word.

And it still has only the meaning that the speaker gives it.


When the speaker is racist, it is a foul, foul thing to hear said. When they are not racist, it's no more harsh than hearing an English person call someone a cunt. Which is to say it's not harsh at all.

[sudopod]

54. That's nice in theory.

In theory no one would write you off as a jackass and avoid you for doing that, nor would anyone offer to throw a punch. Words don't have any power, after all. It's not like anyone has to deal with the consequences of history or anything. Anyone who disagrees just needs to move on!

"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." --Yogi Berra

[Schema Thing]

63. whoa there

I didn't advocate that anyone say anything that would get them punched, or make anyone else feel like punching them.



I'm curious, you said "In theory no one would write you off as a jackass and avoid you for doing that...". What do you mean by "doing that"? Doing what?

[sudopod]

67. Talking like a damn fool.

Gods above and gods below, it's like history started in 19 and god damned 80 for some folks.

[nofurylike]

90. Brilliant!! thank you for that, sudopod!! heartbreakingly spot on Truth. nt

[sudopod]

113. ;)

Thanks for posting the OP. Where I live, this is really an issue. Makes my skin crawl, it does.

[nofurylike]

120. thank you so very much, sudopod.

it is really an issue on here, too.

it should make people's skin crawl.

take care of you living where you do!!

[ZombieHorde]

119. I used to completely agree with your claim, but I have learned words are

actually much more than just letters arranged in a certain order. Words actually have great power. This is why politicians and talking heads are very careful to frame their beliefs in very specific ways. When people get degrees in communication, they are not just learning basic business communication, but mostly how symbols, such as words, affect our minds. In my opinion, symbols are a really interesting field of study. News articles and forums won't seem the same.

[LanternWaste]

156. In addition to the meaning of the person who hears them, also...

"they have the meaning of the person who utters them..."

In addition to the meaning of the person who hears them, also-- which holds the precisely the same weight and validity. That is (according to Noam Chomsky in his book, Language and Mind) one of many reasons we maintain a much larger cupboard of words in our languages than we would otherwise need in a relaxed and friendly atmosphere-- to better realize our responsibility in allowing our words and meanings to intersect.



Additionally, I believe conflating the social bogey-man of authoritarianism with simple respect and tact is simply melodrama in place of rational discourse-- they are two wholly separate constructs, regardless of how we may try to rationalize otherwise... although I do realize how it better allows us to writhe on our self-constructed crosses.

[EnviroBat]

166. I just wanted to say "Thank You" for saying what I've been feeling for so long now.

I'm so fed up with this "holier than thou" hand-wringing, and pearl clutching. I wonder what the air is like up there for those so pious, those who are so easily offended by the realities of the world around them, that something like watching television, or reading a book becomes physically excruciating to their tender, paper-mache senses. I would try to live in such a high tower, of the purest ivory myself, but I'm afraid the smell of my own ass would get to be too much, and I'd fall to my death. I guess there are those among us that just become used to the smell. To those I would ask, stop wasting your time in judgment of me and my words, and please put me on your fucking ignore list. This place is starting to stink with finger pointers, closet hypocrites, and emotional invalids. Cut the content of bleeding-heart drivel by about 60% on this site, and it would become 60% more interesting to visit here and read posts. Like yours for example.

[Ecumenist]

2. Amen, NoFuryLIke!.. Iam a black woman MARRIED to a white man and HE HAS NEVER USED THAT WORD

Last edited Mon Apr 2, 2012, 09:25 PM - Edit history (1)

and is adamant that HE NEVER WILL!! He's from DEEPINDAHARTA and he speaks with disgust when he recounts what he heard about the hate language he heard from people around him. Thank you for pointing out the obvious!!!

[nofurylike]

7. thank you so very much, Ecumenist!!

good for your husband, too!! :applaud:

[freshwest]

28. I taught my kid the reason the word is wrong, beyond being crude and disrespectful, is that where

I grew up, it was what I call an 'action' word. Because the word was always uttered by whites to black just before an attack was going to take place.

I will not tolerate it being said around me, I don't see any constructive purpose. That and other terms are a lie about the human condition and unnecessary.

Some POC and those in other groups say these things in pre-emption of insult; to say they can't be scared. But why associate the self with a derogatory term in the first place, even if one says it's not self-hatred?

Why can't we use uplifting words to describe people and things? Are we that beaten down, that sick of life?

[Ecumenist]

70. Amen, FreshWest. It seems that the Trayvon Martin case is bringing out of the woodwork

and sadly, I believe that there are a significant number here on DU, covert Racists, that is. The kind that all for brotherhood and love until "one" moves in next door or wants to date their daughter.

[nofurylike]

97. a crucially important aspect, "an 'action' word," thank you so much, freshwest!! and

this:

Some POC and those in other groups say these things in pre-emption of insult; to say they can't be scared.

yes!! completely, heartbreakingly understandable.

and beautiful this:

Why can't we use uplifting words to describe people and things? Are we that beaten down, that sick of life?

yes, yes, yes

thank you, again.

[notadmblnd]

35. I never used that word with my husband who was black man

He used it all the time though. After he died, my mother came to my house and used that word. I totally went off on her. She's never ever used that word in my presence again.

[Snake Alchemist]

4. What about Eminem? nt

[nofurylike]

9. i would say the same to him, though i doubt he'd listen any more

than other ... 'entitled' whites will.


(*edit punctuation *then spelling)

[FarLeftFist]

15. Actually Eminem never said the N-word in ANY of his songs.

[nofurylike]

22. thank you for correcting that, FarLeftFist. i apologize to Eminem for

presuming he did because asked a question i obviously mistook. - and, therefore, presuming he is among those 'entitled' whites.

thanks, again, FarLeftFist.

[Snake Alchemist]

23. You need to listen to his underground stuff.

Especially his rap battles. Some of the stuff ripping against Everlast is pretty cool.

[hughee99]

5. So if my daugher asks what the "n-word" is and why she should never say it,

shouldn't I tell her what the word actually is (because there's many "n-words" in a 6 year old's vocabulary), and explain why she should never say it? Would it be acceptable in that case?

[nofurylike]

8. i ask that other parents please reply to that. nt

[Ecumenist]

13. I think, Hughee99, that you need to tell your sweet little girl what the word is, why she shouldn't

say it, maybe with explaining in an age appropriate way what that word means and let her know that by using that word, it would hurt other people in the same way that someone saying something nasty about her would hurt her. Little ones understand things like that much more than grown folks.

[nofurylike]

27. very beautifully said. thank you so much for that, Ecumenist. nt

[Mariana]

49. That approach worked well with my daughter.

But I disagree with you that children get the concept better than adults. Adults know the effect that word has, in whatever context it may be used. They understand it just fine.

[loyalsister]

88. Adults don't like to admit to being retroactively wrong

in their ideas, behavior, or speech. Children have the advantage of a lack of personal history they feel the need to defend.

[nofurylike]

98. that is insightful!!! yes! "being retroactively wrong ... they feel the need to defend"!!

that poured a whole wave of insight into me, thank you so much, loyalsister!!

[loyalsister]

104. awesome

It's a subject I feel pretty strongly about. The more minds I meet the better I feel.

edited to add:
It is difficult but important to look for ways to understand what is happening from all sides. Even when it comes to people who we disagree with.
I'm adamant in my belief that respectful language is a matter of good manners and decency, but try to acknowledge a personal validity to conclusions that differ with mine.

[nofurylike]

121. thank you for bringing it to this thread, loyalsister.

i am wondering, do you mean specific conclusions that differ? i mean, posters on this threads'?

i like that very much:

The more minds I meet the better I feel.

me too.

[loyalsister]

144. Any and all, I guess

Our points of view stem from our personal intellectual growth which is driven by our environments, available content, and strategies for learning. Some of that is handed to us and accepted without hesitation or questioning, sometimes forced on us, sometimes we seek it ourselves. To deny the validity in absolute is not necessarily fair. They gathered and digested information on their terms.

Obama referenced white people who don't feel their privilege and blame affirmative action. I think "white people who don't feel their privilege" is an enlightened and sympathetic phrase. It encompasses many elements of what may drive a disposition of resentment. Economic strife, lack of education, lack of interaction, negative experiences, lack of interest in questioning their lot in life beyond what they've been told. Having some respect for the intellect of a person who has come to conclusions on that basis isn't such a bad thing.

Behavior and expression is a whole different discussion, though.

[nofurylike]

193. o my, that is an entire discussion, in itself! much to think about !

i agree with you that President Obama's comment is "is an enlightened and sympathetic phrase." it is deeply moving!!

we have countless paths to raise consiousness, and compassion, empathy and respectful listening are among them. but so is assertion.

i am going to have to dwell on this for a while. running through right now, and i want to reply more when i have a chance. thank you for the thoughts.

meanwhile, i would like to know, if you will, what you wish to say in that, as it applies to this thread, or to my comments. blunt is good!

thanks, again!

[loyalsister]

196. As far as your original post...

I agree with the kid who gave a speech on it. He says it so well. It's never okay. As a white person, it offends me to hear anyone say it.

&feature=fvsr

"and the worst part of it, is that when you say it quoting someone else, you all always say it with such relish! it's as if you finally get the chance to say it where you can act as if it is not YOU saying it, so you really get off on saying it!" The comments below the video are revealing. I see how that may be possible, although "you all" would not include me. I never use it. I also hate the term "white trash." I think the message is that it is unnatural for white people to be considered trashy, but when it comes to anyone who isn't white, it's so common we don't even need to mention it. I hate to hear white people refer to themselves that way as much as I hate to hear the term used to denigrate other people.

I believe that the hearer trumps speaker when it comes to an interpretation of language with an ugly history. It's not about being PC. It's basic manners and respect. Suggesting that it is about being PC or the 1st Amendment, to me is pretty much the same as a person who rejects the notion that it is rude to not use basic table manners or show up at work wearing clothing. Or even if it is rude- it's their right under the constitution.
I think that the idea of common decency has gotten lost in the discussion. Most of us do not drop F bombs around our grandmas. We make basic agreements on civility.
I think there is some safety in categorizing it as bad manners rather than assigning motives we aren't certain exist.

[nofurylike]

198. great!! i reply tonight, but briefly: "when you say it quoting someone else ... " y'know? nt

[loyalsister]

200. That's kind of tricky

I can see a possible literary "license." To remove language that reflects the culture of the eras of Huckleberry Finn, Tom Sawyer, or Uncle Tom's Cabin might be damaging to the material. But, I know a friend who chose to avoid those books until her grandchildren are adults in terms of her personal recommendations. How to communicate that it is so far beyond profanity- like fuck, etc. The understanding of the difference in hate speech may have to begin with other words? I know families who hav discouraged use of the word hate" in favor of dislike. I'm referencing the question related to children here, so consider context
We seem to have degrees of offensiveness that has been reflected in the media and entertainment. Fuck is worse than shit, which is worse than damn.

As for journalism, or to quote someone during everyday usage, I think that it is useful to be consistent in rejection of the 'n' word in current language. I heard a local black activist use "ngr" as an acronym instead of "the n word" as a stand in. It may flow with everyday language more naturally?

To add:
I" should mention that I have also been a part of a movement to eliminate the 'r' word..... more later.

[dems_rightnow]

14. If she's old enough to ask and wonder

She deserves the truth. Being a parent isn't always comfortable. But yes, it's perfectly OK to use the word in explaining why it's so terrible.

[nofurylike]

31. clarifying. thank you so much for replying to that, dems_rightnow. nt

[guitar man]

46. Of course you should

The one place that this word and others like it will always belong is in history lessons. We need to be able to teach our children what happened and why it was wrong. Sanitizing history of the epithets that were hurled with such hate and anger will only guarantee new and equally vile ones in the future.

[quinnox]

10. we have this thing called the first amendment

it means you can say whatever you want and have this freedom, even if you are a full blown racist mother fucker. So while I agree in general its not socially acceptable to utter that word as a white person, I would always be the last one standing to defend the freedom to say it. Or however that pithy little well known saying goes.

[Aerows]

12. You are free to say it

You just aren't free of the consequences that occur afterwards.

[quinnox]

17. correct, and that is why I agree

that saying that word, which is a racist slur, is not socially acceptable to say in polite society as a white person in general.

[nofurylike]

38. maybe even the consequences of our own consciences. nt

[NutmegYankee]

145. How are you then free to say it?

If you insult the king and are then beheaded for your statement, how is that any different?

[nofurylike]

37. having a *legal right* to say it is not a question raised by my post (though good question).

thank you for replying, quinnox. i agree it is not acceptable.

wait, i see downthread that you re-emphasize that you consider it not acceptable.
thank you, again.

[Aerows]

11. It's never okay for heterosexuals to

use terms like dyke and faggot, either. As a lesbian, I've seen too much, and too much animosity associated with those words.

There, I said it.

[nofurylike]

40. i agree. thank you for adding that, Aerows.

notice that even as a lesbian i didn't write out dyke. and i wear a dyke button.

[FarLeftFist]

16. I agree NFL. I get embarrassed when I hear OTHER people say it. It's 100% wrong.

[nofurylike]

41. thank you, again, more, FarLeftFist. i get embarrassed too!! 100%,YES! nt

[Archae]

18. When we were kids and would pile up on each other playing, we'd call it "n***** pile."

We picked up the usage from our parents, who picked it up from their parents.

As we got older and realized what it meant, we stopped using it.

[Aerows]

19. I had a friend that asked me what you call Brazil nuts

I replied "Brazil nuts." I knew what she was hinting at, but I've never called them anything but Brazil nuts.

[Archae]

26. We never used the racist term for them.

Maybe it was a southern thing, I don't know.

We called them Brazil nuts. Always did.

[notadmblnd]

25. We played that game, but we called it Jam Pile.

[Archae]

33. Nowadays kids call it "dog pile."

I heard that riding past a playground.

[jwirr]

167. And we called it a pig pile. I never heard the n-word until we were much older. I saw the first

black man in my life when my grandmother and I went to Souix City, Iowa to shop. When I asked her who he was she did not even use that stupid word. I think she used the word Negro as it was the 40s and no one was using the idea of Black yet. What is learned in childhood is very important to this issue.

[uppityperson]

36. It changed, for us, to "pig pile".

Rather like einie meinie mieni mo, catch a tiger/piggy by the toe also changed to that during my childhood.

[nofurylike]

103. us too. one of the deepest, most intensely shame-filled lessons i ever learned was

being informed by my mother of the meaning and effect of that word when she realized i had ignorantly picked it up from neighbor children. how horrible, looking back, that sickening sing-song oblivion while being vulgarly hateful.

and it taught me to QUESTION others' racist slanders, including those which i later heard coming from horribly many members of my extended family. what shame and embarrassment, and rightful i had to feel that.

thank you for posting that, Archae.

[derby378]

20. This PC horseshit is getting old

We need to jettison this nonsense that teaches there are certain words that A, B, and C are allowed to use to their hearts' content, but D can never, ever use simply because he is D.

Last I checked, we're Democrats - and Democrats are all about equality. Nobody ever said that equality had to be sanitary. Deal with it, already.

[Ecumenist]

45. So, because we're democrats/progressives, we should just go around caling browns and blacks "n*****s

yellow people,"g***s", red people "b***n*****s", whites"c*******s", women,"ho's, bitches &"c***s; Gays "f*gs and lesbians "d**es..Right? Because, they're just words. If it doesn't hurt you, why should it matter? To posit that people who are progressives and Democrats should be able to use those words to their hearts content makes it sound like we should be like the right wing. That's what they do, they call people like me those "words" but since you decided that it doesn't matter, I guess I should just forget it and all the history behind it.

That the words that were designed to hurt and degrade, Derby and I suspect that you don't belong in one of those groups who are who were historically oppressed and in many ways, STILL continue to be. And even though I belong a few of those groups, according to you, I don't have any right to feel disgust and I will change my historical perspective accordingly. Thank you for straightening me out.

[derby378]

48. I am a Polack, thank you very much

And personally, the only one who is talking about being allowed to use these words willy-nilly is you.

You still haven't addressed the fact that these PC rules create different classes of people in society who are segregated from each other by the words they are "allowed" to use in public. You want to fight racism? You want these words to disappear from our vocabulary entirely? That's a noble goal. But you do it by making the words obsolete, and that way nobody is using them anymore.

[sudopod]

55. HAHAHAHA

right.

[derby378]

58. Do YOU intend to use any of those words?

My guess is no. At least not as a way of identifying someone - I think we both agree that saying "This is Bob, and as you can see, he's a <insert epithet here>" degrades Bob and makes beasts of those who say such things.

[LaydeeBug]

71. For ANYONE to suggest that ANY group of people shouldn't say a word

is racist on its face. then the friend goes into HOW white people say it? Do Hispanics say it differently? Is it ok for Asians, just not white people? I'm red boned, what about that?

NO ONE should be using that word, but for someone to suggest that WHITE PEOPLE shouldn't say a word is RACIST on its face.

Really.

And this whole thread is kinda shocking. wow

[sudopod]

83. oh lord

[LaydeeBug]

153. Please

How fucking ridiculous.

Really

[Ecumenist]

127. LaydeeBud, Frankly, I don't think that ANYONE should use this language because it's only

meant to deride and hurt people. This ind of language, in it's various forms, is often the fuse that leads to genocidal horror.

[LaydeeBug]

154. That's Laydeebug, thankyouverymuch, and I agree with you, which is why that racist "friend" should

have been called out for BEING the racist she was trying to criticize.

Really.

[nofurylike]

123. :clap:

[Ecumenist]

66. Don't twist what I was saying because you know damn well what my point was. Your attempt

at TRYING to be witty is falling flat with your lame "argument". If using these words on the regular were all it took to make them obsolete, they would have been at least one hundred years ago. I'm not stupid and my husband is a Bohemian Czech, btw. There's nothing you're going to be able to say to justify or rationalise using denigration as a means of turning them into terms of endearment. It's wrong and anyone who sets themselves up as a proponent of using the words because "it's too PC not to" will almost be suspect for being an undercover racist in my book. Period.

[derby378]

72. I don't know where you're getting all these ideas from...

...but I stand by my notion that Democrats support equality. If one group of people can't use a certain word, then nobody gets to. Nobody. To claim that it's okey-dokey for some people to use the word and not-so-hot for others to do it is the same PC horseshit that's been dogging our party since the Clinton years.

And, once again, I didn't say a damn thing about turning racial epithets into "terms of endearment" - you did. Take a deep breath and relax. You might not know this, but I'm also a Quaker, and our disgust and revulsion at racism is both well-documented and unyielding.

[Ecumenist]

81. I'm not saying that nobody use them but there is a history behind certain words that prevent them

from being part of benign language. YOU'RE A QUAKER??!! OH my GOD... I've been around Quakers ALL MY LIFE and I have NEVER heard them either espouse using hate speech or using it. Wow. "our disgust and revulsion at racism is both well-documented and unyielding.", but you don't mind using it's language.

[nofurylike]

126. yes! "there is a history behind certain words that prevent them

from being part of benign language."

[derby378]

158. There is a difference between making certain words part of a benign language...

...and thoroughly crushing said words out of existence. I have you seen you declare that nobody should use the "n-word." And I agree with you on that. The word has been used to marginalize a group of people in our society that never deserved to be treated that way.

But I have to make a confession. Long before I ever embraced Quakerism, I got bullied at school a lot, and one of the worst bullies happened to be black. One day after he slapped my face, I decided I had had enough. I used the "n-word" on him. His veneer of superiority over me quickly dissolved into batshit craziness, which was the effect that I wanted. I had gained a certain type of power over him by using that word, the power to make him lose control over himself. But other black students got angry at me, as did other white students.

And yes, it was a different time before everyone's consciousness, including mine, was raised on the issue. I didn't use that word on my bully to insult his family or his race; I used it to insult him and him alone. But I'm wise enough to realize that my actions were still wrong, just as his were. I'm not going to justify my actions because I can't. I was just another snot-nosed kid like everyone else at school, including that bully.

At the same time, however, I refuse to take the OP's admonition that if I should ever quote her, that I should say "the c-word" when she actually said something else. What she said has been said, and she'll have to take the responsibility for it just like I have to take responsibility for my own words. And I honestly mean you no animosity at all - I have a sense of what you're trying to achieve, and I think both of us want the same thing, but we simply have different means of reaching that end.

And that's one reason I am now a Democrat.

[nofurylike]

203. no, i didn't write out the c-word. nt

[nofurylike]

124. yes!! "they would have been (obsolete) at least one hundred years ago." nt

[jwirr]

170. To me PC is a rw term - in our family we do not use derogatory words to describe other races

because it is hateful - forget politics.

[nofurylike]

224. very well said, thank you so very much, jwirr!

YES!! : "PC is a rw term"

[nofurylike]

122. "the words that were designed to hurt and degrade"

[sudopod]

47. Wow, you must be great fun at parties. nt

[nofurylike]

109. sanitary? how about compassionate, at least?

you don't think that words, alone, led children to foster adults' bigotries? enact them materially, physically? race. gender. sexual orientation ....

yes, deal with better being expected of you.

[derby378]

159. If you don't want me to use the word, don't use it yourself

It's honestly just that simple. Compassion doesn't enter into it. Common sense does.

[seabeyond]

21. i sit in awe at the challenge for people to actually not be purposely offensive to others.

the insistence to the right to offend a group of people

damn, we are a special people.

awestruck.

(i am referring to the posters in the thread.)

[nofurylike]

128. yes!! that is really what the argument seems to come down to:

people who commit to not being "purposely offensive to others"

versus

people who insist they have a "right to offend a group of people"


thank you for adding that, seabeyond!!

[gvstn]

30. Do you really think that it is appropriate

For the talking heads on teevee to have a 15 minute discussion about the "n word" without ever saying it? It makes me crazy! If they can't say the word then they shouldn't be talking about it at all.

Since this Zimmerman tape they have been talking about his possibly uttering "a racial slur". Most won't even say the word "coon". It is ridiculous. I absolutely understand that "coon" can be a racial slur with the same connotations as the "n word". It would be disgusting to hurl it at a black person. But in a newscast accusing someone of using it and asking people to discuss what words they hear on the tape it is ridiculous to omit the word. Perhaps I should I edit my post so we can discuss the "c word" and the "n word"? Does that make any sense?

You can't remove a word from history. Using a euphemism for it and having people translate to the actual word in their brain is stupid and childish. Use the word in discussion and make it clear it is racist to use the word against another person. Just like you would do if you were discussing the subject with your teenager. How old are we as a people?

[derby378]

44. +100

Let's just come out and say it - "nigger" is becoming our version of "Voldemort." Fear of a name, even a racist name, only turns us into frightened little rabbits waiting for the Republican wolves to devour.

To everyone else: You want to take away all power from that word? Make it obsolete, like "phrenology" or "ods bodkins." Nobody uses the word anymore because we have evolved as a people and as a society.

[nofurylike]

131. i protested people's using swastikas in avatars here

because i know people in whose hearts the very sight of swastikas strikes debilitating terror.

using the image was gratuitous, not using it cost the member nothing. they had, of course, every legal right to use it.

i am relieved that people did stop using it.

if media put swastikas on their screens every time they spoke of racism, i would protest it, too. it is nothing for them to use a euphemism instead of the attacking word itself.

the fact that something was DESIGNED to terrorize, degrade, attack WITH IMPUNITY, others, is reason enough to hope that people professing to be humanitarian (aren't liberals supposed to be that?) in nature would commit ourselves to resist using it, and its use by others.

"n-word" not only does not directly attack, it also expresses deeply held concern for those the actual word

ASSAULTS.

[w8liftinglady]

32. My children were instructed from birth to NEVER use this word

NONE of them ever have.It would never roll off their tongue.

As a caucasian,I have heard the jokes in the back room,when nobody thought the "n" word was listening.

It is foul,obscene-because if its intent.The intent to hurt,diminish a whole group of people.

[orleans]

108. i explained to my daughter never to use this word as well

(not from birth--but when she was old enough to understand--maybe around 4 or 5? i don't remember. kids tend to be colorblind toward skin color when they're little and i can recall wondering/angsting how & when i should broach the subject.)

my grandmother used that word and my parents did occasionally. but i always felt uncomfortable hearing it. i don't recall ever using it in conversation--not even when i was little. and when i got a little older (maybe around 9 or 10) i'd tell my parents and my grandma to stop saying "that word."

one thing i do remember was seeing jesse jackson on tv with some kids beside him. he was talking about "black is beautiful" and this little girl said "i'm black and i'm beautiful." and i looked at her and thought "she is beautiful." that simple moment left a lasting impression on me. maybe it was after that when i became the word monitor around the house.

[nofurylike]

138. beautifully said, orleans, thank you so very much!!

one thing i do remember was seeing jesse jackson on tv with some kids beside him. he was talking about "black is beautiful" and this little girl said "i'm black and i'm beautiful." and i looked at her and thought "she is beautiful." that simple moment left a lasting impression on me. maybe it was after that when i became the word monitor around the house.

"the word monitor"

YES!!!! it is a sacred responsibility!!!

how could ANYONE experience it as oppressing them, or policing them, or taxing them in ANY way, to hope they would hold that as highly as it ought to be held?!

as one poster said, i suspect it intimates some rascism in there ....

[nofurylike]

135. VERY well put, w8liftinglady!! "It is foul,obscene-because of its intent.

The intent to hurt,diminish a whole group of people."

YES YES YES!!!

good for you, and good for your kids!!!

i have heard those despicable 'jokes' too. i often wish i could carry a recorder to later broadcast what so horribly many whites say when they a.) are in white-only company and b.) are certain that any other whites present would, of course, share their vile views when sure they are in white-only company. it shocks and sickens me, too.

thank you so very much!!

[-..__...]

34. George Carlins and Richard Pryors take on it...

and I agree.

<flame suit on>

[stlsaxman]

39. ... and I say - "it is never, ever okay for ME to say (n-word)".

i don't care about hurting anyone. I will not reduce myself to using it.

that's all i need to know.

[nofurylike]

225. good points, stlsaxman! thank you! nt

[nofurylike]

42. great discussion, and thank you so for recs!! must run, back later to reply more nt

[fujiyama]

51. It's certainly never appropriate for people to call each other that word

The use of the word should offend civilized people of all races. It's a nasty word with an incredibly awful and cruel historical usage.

But ultimately, if it's quoted in context, I am not offended by it. It makes reading and writing extremely tedious to see "--" as every other letter. That goes for all expletives. I just find such censorship meaningless even when done to avoid being seen as insensitive.

This is an argument that has gone on for some time. Should we likewise see Huck Finn edited, replacing every usage of the word with "ni--er"? This just seems pointless. The reality is that racism isn't centered around one word.

[derby378]

56. Bingo!

You've expressed it far better than I can. If the word is really that offensive, then nobody should be using it. But I'm not willing to let my own personal distaste for the word evolve into a leftist form of censorship.

[nofurylike]

204. first, i am not advocating censorship. that should not be necessary with principled

people, about that word.

is it really such a hardship having "to see '--' as every other letter"? to willingly spare others mental cruelty, degradation?

a book can not be undone, though it can be edited before republishing. meanwhile, it is a chance to teach others about that word, including why one decides not to read that word out loud when reading the book aloud.

[fujiyama]

216. I just view the use of dashes and other symbols as silly and pointless

and in some ways it simply mystifies and creates a strange fascination of the word. Just by covering a few letters in a word, doesn't erase the historical oppression, cruelty , and nastiness behind it.

I've been recently listening to a lot of historical audio books and civil rights and racism are some of the topics covered so as you can expect when individuals are quoted, the word certainly comes up. As an audio book, of course the narrator uses it as he rightly should. I cringe when I hear the word and it just disgusts me to the core, but I know that in context these are neither the author's or narrator's viewpoints or feelings. I also know that if the word wasn't used, these quotes would certainly lose their effectiveness.

Ultimately, breaking down barriers toward education, discrimination in housing, credit, and workplaces, will do more to destroy the word than simply covering a few letters in it. Of course, it's important to also educate children when reading literature and history about the word and why it was used. But I'm absolutely dead set against editing any written piece of work to do this. It's vital that all writing, and especially literature, is understood within the context of the time period it was written.

[felix_numinous]

53. Freedom of speech

gives us the freedom to be socially conscious or to not care and be offensive. We are free to be either sensitive or callous--but the best judge of what is offensive or prejudiced behavior falls onto the recipient--because NO ONE else can understand. And to err on the side of sensitivity is the way toward a civil society.

One of the marks of ignorance is using derogatory terms and not caring who is excluded from the group. Over my lifetime I have learned a lot, that ignorant and dismissive behavior are often very subtle, that much communication is in body language and expression. We don't have that here, which really messes with our being able to trust each other. So I agree that derogatory labels only serve to risk damaging an open and trusting forum, and will drive away any diversity that we have here.

[vr94rx7]

57. Tell your friend that it is no ok to refer to caucasian European Americans as "whire".

[derby378]

59. "Whire?"

[vr94rx7]

60. I hate to be called white so much i forgot how to spell it lol.

[alphafemale]

61. Except when reading Twain.

He left those scorpion stings there on purpose. I'm pretty sure of it.

[gvstn]

77. Stings is correct

The word does sting for most people. I'm in my 40's and I can say that I have never heard someone called the n word to their face. That in itself says something. The word is rarely used as a public insult anymore. (Maybe in junior high during desegregation--I heard it.)

I never used it or thought it. My mom said something like, "That word is disgusting and I don't ever want to hear it come out of your mouth.". I was obedient and that was that. It would never occur to me to think of someone as that word.

I think anyone that still uses it in any context is working off the prejudices of their parents. In another generation there won't even be jokes spread around in private. No one will remember them. And the word will die off.

Most of the ethnic stereotype insult words are dying off. I won't abbreviate them because I think it is stupid. Spic, Jew, Guido, Pollack etc. They have fallen out of use because they probably originated during large waves of immigration where different ethnic groups of poor immigrants wanted a group poorer or less educated than them to look down on to make themselves feel superior. I'm not excusing the behaviour just surmising its evolution. Same will/is happening with the n word.

All that said, I feel ridiculous writing the "n word" twelve times in posts in this thread instead of using the word. Putting the word in type makes it visible in all its ugliness. Sometimes you have to face something ugly to see that it is ugly.

News reports that say a man was called a sexual orientation slur before being beaten gloss over ugliness. News reports that say, "The men yelled, "You Goddamn cocksucking faggot" at Johnson before beating him so severely he lost one eye and suffered traumatic brain injury, let the ugly be seen for what it is.

Oh, and editing Twain would be a great crime. "Negro Jim" also lets people gloss over that ugly words exist and are dangerous.

[Schema Thing]

79. that's what an exacto knife is for

[Honeycombe8]

64. I'm white. I would never use the N word. But I don't like the 'tude of your friend.

It's smart alecky, for one thing. Another thing is...she places more importance on the N word than I think is justified, at least according to a white's perspective. As a white person, I do NOT go around looking for reasons to say the N word. Nor do I give the N word any importance, other than knowing it's a derogatory term that carries signficant offensiveness to black people. Other than that, I don't give it a thought.

I'm, quite simply, wrapped up in my own problems, the country's problems, the economy, and a million other things. I don't have the time or the inclination to want to say the N word "with glee!" as your friend put it. That's an insulting, offensive thing for her/him to say.

[sudopod]

69. "...at least according to a white's perspective."

:3

[LaydeeBug]

73. GOD BLESS YOU HONEYCOMB, I am kinda shocked no one called out the friend.

It's offensive. Really

[Union Scribe]

86. Well put. nt

[LaydeeBug]

65. As a minority, I call BULLSHIT, and the fact that "your friend" says WHITE PEOPLE can't say it...

only lends to the insidious undertow of racism...can people of color say it, but not white folk?

There is a group of people that think that it is impossible for a Black person to be racist, because of minority status. Oh, so women can't sexually harass men because of their minority status then, right? Well BULLSHIT. Bullshit on "reverse racism" too. The reverse of racism is inclusion.

Any human in the human race can be racist. And if it is in the right setting, any word can be used at any time.

FUCK that.

[Ecumenist]

129. You know LayDeeBug, I have never understood people who claimed that blacks can't be racist.

that's complete and utter bullsh!t. I know that I have had the misfortune to run into more than a few of them. I don't know who came up with this idiotic idea and I have NEVER subscribed to it. "Any human in the human race can be racist." A truer thing may have never been said.

[LaydeeBug]

146. and it seems the OP's "friend" is an example of someone who wants to BE racist

just not *called* racist.

But by their deeds you will know them...

[AnnieBW]

68. Unless you're quoting a line from "Blazing Saddles"

Even then, I feel uncomfortable saying the n-word.

[Schema Thing]

82. I think it's undeniable that that movie, using humor, helped people

who were ready to move past racism get more comfortable with their white/black brothers and sisters.




And yet, because of the social prudishness that has crept into society (as seen in the op), that movie could never be made in today's America (or if it was it would never find a distributor).

[sudopod]

84. "the social prudishness that has crept into society"

You're a riot.

We should all long for the enlightened attitudes of 1974.

[Schema Thing]

91. well, certainly the enlightened attitudes of the movie Blazing Saddles

or don't you agree?


I bet you don't agree; you seem pretty humorless.

[sudopod]

95. AW COME ON, IT'S A JOKE!

LIGHTEN UP!

Seriously, some things just aren't funny, except in that sad "oh, he really doesn't get it" way when someone is being cluelessly over-the-top awful in an unironic way.

There are reasons that stuff doesn't fly outside of 4chan.

[Schema Thing]

100. somehow you still seem humorless

you're good!

[sudopod]

106. You have the right to say whatever you want.

People with the sense god gave a toadstool have the right to call you an idiot.

No one is preventing you from doing anything. If "social ostracism" and "being a douche-canoe" are among your life goals, then feel free to follow your dreams. No one is stopping you. Just don't expect to get affirmation from the likes of DU when you stomp in and explain that you and all of your black friends (lol) are happy with your backwards-ass opinions.

Sadly, I think you're serious. I'd feel better about the world if I thought you were just another unsubtle stormfront troll looking for laughs.

[Schema Thing]

110. but I don't have any "backwards-ass" opinions.

I'm a progressive who understands what language is and is not.


You however are an authoritarian who does not understand what language is. Hence your stupid bullying (w/o really making any point whatsoever) in this discussion.


Feel free to return to the discussion when you acquire the sense god gave a toadstool.

[sudopod]

111. Bullied? Do you even know what "authortarian" means?

Really, it isn't like the things we say and do affect other people. We should just say whatever flies betwixt our ears and damn the consequences. If it hurts someone else, they should just put on their big-boy pants and get over the fact that they can't trace their family history back more than a hundred years because people back then just didn't care where their property came from.

I'd wager you're not from the deep south, are ya?

PS: You can win the argument at any time by letting us in on that awesome joke. Just let me know a good time to drop an n-bomb in conversation. It'll be a great icebreaker, I'm sure! Proof positive that those nasty words "have no power." I'll be waiting in mein kampfy chair for your timely response.

[Ecumenist]

130. Amen, Sudopod! There are just some that cannot or WILL NOT understand...

"get over the fact that they can't trace their family history back more than a hundred years because people back then just didn't care where their property came from." Exactly, Sudopod, which is what I was trying to explain the reasons why language matters.

[Oilwellian]

199. Mein kampfy chair

OMG...that made me laugh out loud. I've read the entire thread and your post is by far the best at exposing the crux of the issue.

[Romulox]

176. Right. Archie Bunker was a racist, and they should have NEVER made that show.

Er?

[wendylaroux]

74. No it is not ok

to use any word that is used to denigrate any group of people. -----ANY GROUP OF PEOPLE.-----

[arthritisR_US]

76. I so agree and to even use debasements

within a group is to accept dehumanization from within. Internalizing garbage just makes one garbage, IMO.

[freshwest]

80. +1

[loyalsister]

96. + 100

I hate the term "white trash" and how white people think it's okay to use it among\about themselves. The term implies that it is only unnatural for white people to be considered trash.

I don't see any reasonable defense for using disrespectful terms in everyday language that denigrates people. It only serves to create unnecessary divides and pain.

[Ecumenist]

133. Ain't it the truth! Just because SOME black folks use self-denigrating language DOES NOT

make it right. Trash in= Trash out!

[arthritisR_US]

192. All groups do it, it's just not something I

want to partake in.

[Ecumenist]

132. Thank you WendyLaRoux, for pointing out what SHOULD be obvious!

I want to welcome you to DU...RIGHT GLAD TAMEETCHA!!!

[wendylaroux]

169. Thanks!

[nofurylike]

205. absolutely!! thank you very much wendylaroux! welcome! nt

[guitar man]

85. Context is everything

A lecture and discussion of it in a history class and hurling it as an epithet to be hurtful are two different things. Discussing it's use in Mark Twain literature and casually using tasteless terms like "n----r rigged" are not the same thing. There are no wrong words but there are many wrong uses.

There's a reason Auschwitz is still standing and people can take tours of it. Forgetting the mistakes and ghastly tragedies of history leaves us doomed to repeat it.

[pipoman]

87. Neither of my 21 year olds

knew what "Pollock" means. Pols didn't go around calling themselves or others pollocks and the word dissipated. I don't use the word, most whites don't use the word, if blacks quit using it, it too would dissipate, IMHO.

[Ecumenist]

134. what blacks are using it? I'VE NEVER HEARD ANYONE BLACK USE THAT WORD!

I've heard my HUSBAND say it, (He's Bohemian Czech) and grew up in a STRONG eastern European community in central Texas BUT I've NEVER heard any black person say it. EVER and I've been black most of my life and know ALOT of black people. SMDH

[tkmorris]

140. I think you're doing it again

Unless I misread the poster above, he/she is talking about blacks using the words which denigrates them amongst themselves, i.e. the "N" word. He/she is saying that the Polish people do not use the word "polack" amongst themselves, and this has helped to decrease it usage in greater society or simply reduced it's power in the Polish community. He/she appears to be suggesting that blacks might wish to follow this example.

[Ecumenist]

142. I had two other people read this post and they both started laughing and saying that

this poster is making 'ish up. THAT BLACK PEOPLE DON'T USE THE WORD POLLOCK. THAT'S how this reads. You may be INTERPRETING but what this says is EXACTLY what it says. NOWHERE in the post is there anything about using N****r...period. I'M VERY GOOD AT COMPREHENSION and I do not need you telling me what I read.

[pipoman]

148. Most people who read the post as a response to the OP

would get it. If you had someone read the post who didn't read the post I was responding to, then they would not get the context.

[pipoman]

147. Maybe the context of my post is lost if you don't first read the post

I was responding to. The post (the OP) is talking about 'the n word'. BTW, I have always found the use of the term "the n word" a bit juvenile..if there is a discussion amongst adults, regardless of race, about this or any word, it seems silly not to use the word. Is the term 'the n word' really less offensive than the word itself when the word is the subject of an adult conversation? This whole thread sounds like a bunch of 4th graders talking about swearing, again IMHO.

But, yes. I am saying if blacks stopped using 'the n word', the social acceptability of the word would diminish and it would go the way of other epitaphs which are barely existent now.

[hfojvt]

93. are you a black person?

I didn't see that in your OP.


"how do you know it is never appropriate?

because black people have told you it is never appropriate."


That's probably not gonna be true of all black people though.

In fact, the phrase "black people" also has some controversy attached to it. The politically correct term is "African American", but some blacks like that term and some don't.

Now, if you read Martin Luther King, which I encourage you to, he uses the word 'negro'. Yet using that word today, particularly by a white person like me, would be considered a huge faux pas.

It's kinda funny how these things get 'decided' insofar as they ever are decided. I don't think there really is a universal rule.

I would also note, again, that in my limited experience among the black people who use the word. They make a distinction between n-ga and n-ger. But YMMV.

[Number23]

116. I repeat. Geez Louise...

Now, if you read Martin Luther King, which I encourage you to, he uses the word 'negro'. Yet using that word today, particularly by a white person like me, would be considered a huge faux pas.

As if that has ANYTHING to do with the subject at hand.

[nofurylike]

223. thank you, Number23. nt

[yewberry]

101. A-Okay.

I'm not even sure why this is up for discussion.

As usual, I'm sure I missed something.

[Vattel]

112. In my opinion white people should never use that word to refer to black people.

And I do think it is totally different when a black person uses it. But I have no problem with white people mentioning the word. If a white person says, "Damn. That racist asshole over there just called Obama a nigger," that seems perfectly ok to me unless the speaker gets some weird thrill in just mentioning the word. (I agree with the OP that a lot of whites who mention the word do get some sort of cheap thrill from doing so. You can hear it in their voices.)

[Ecumenist]

136. Yes, Vattel, EVERYTHING you said is completely correct.

[nadinbrzezinski]

118. I have a question

Howvabout historians writing the history of slavery to put it in context. I am sorry, but have written the word when quoting things like bills of sale.

By the way I had this exact same discussion with a college student who happened to be African American. He was offended at what I was reading for research, bills of sale...

But seriously can a historian even explore the subject?

[Ecumenist]

139. NadinBrzezinski, I have no earthly idea why that student was offended by your research

what you were doing is necessary to learn about what happened, why and by learning, being able to extract information to to try to prevent something as horrible from EVER happening again. Explore away, Nadin. I for one, appreciate the historians, whom I call "the Holders of Our Humanity". I am a Black woman who wants the lives and suffering of my ancestors recorded.

[nadinbrzezinski]

178. It made sense, if you think about it

All he saw on my Sony reader was the word...negro...on the trolley on the way to universty. He had not realized, until that momemt, the word was integral, not in a good way, to US history. I blame how much we have sanitized HS history, and yes race relations.

[nofurylike]

141. thank you, all, for this oustanding discussion! much to reply to all!

must rest. to be continued ....

[Jim Lane]

143. A specific example for discussion (warning: the word is spelled out)

This was an actual conversation in the late 1970s between me and another progressive white male. He was telling me about how a particular Southern political figure during the Jim Crow era, a good man and a progressive for his time and place, had lost a race. My friend told me, "In the primary they tried Commie-baiting him, and that didn't work. Then in the runoff they tried nigger-baiting him, and that did work."

In context, it's clear what he meant. In the primary, the politician was accused of being a Communist, or being supported by Communists, or being soft on Communism, but he did well anyway. In the runoff, the opposition switched to charging that he would not be diligent in maintaining the established order of white supremacy, and the voters responded by voting against that candidate.

In a formal analysis of the election, my friend's comment would have been inappropriate -- not because of offensiveness, but because it was slang. For a casual conversation with someone whom he knew not to be a racist, however, I think it was perfectly OK.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

149. My mother LOVES that word.

And when she says it I walk away or hang up on her.
I don't even think it is OK for black people to say that word.

[CTyankee]

150. growing up in segregated Texas in the 50s I never remember hearing my white parents say it.

As a matter of fact, they looked down upon people who did. I'm not claiming moral superiority for them. Segregation was fine with them (but they weren't enraged by desegregation either...my father hated the idea of Medicare more than desegregation). I just grew up knowing that that word was not used by polite people. When I heard my aunt use it, once, I was shocked that she uttered it in front of me, but this was when I was already grown. I didn't know she ever used it. No other family member that I recall used it.

I have very little exposure to this word. I agree with this OP. It's a loaded word, period. But there is a lot more racism that is there without the use of this term. Plenty of racists don't say it but I'll bet they think it...

[bart95]

161. 'Plenty of racists don't say it but I'll bet they think it... '

so someone is a racist based on what you bet they think?

boy, that's a slippery slope

[CTyankee]

168. aw, come on, you know what I mean.

"I know this is not p.c. but..."

[bart95]

172. i did stretch it a bit

but that's only been a pet peave of mine

i remember this one woman i worked with once had a whole arguement with me against 'what you (me) probably think' (over some stupid thing in the paper) when i actually hadnt said a word

that sort of thing (straw man/mind reader arguement) really ticks me off

[CTyankee]

180. In many ways, I agree with you. I'm talking about people who are only mildly hiding

their racism. I see this thinly veiled language in the "sound off" column in my local newspaper. Because it is essentially anonymous, people say things a little more boldly, but still shading their words slightly.

There was a lot of that when neighboring East Haven's mayor made a remark about having tacos for dinner. There was a Justice Dept. suit against the city because the police were harassing Hispanic people. It was a national story. But these East Haveners were really going at it in the sound off column. Nasty reading...

[Ecumenist]

188. It was EASY to discern what you meant, CTYankee.

[Nye Bevan]

151. Should Harper Lee have used asterisks in "To Kill a Mockingbird"? (nt)

[CTyankee]

194. No. She revealed, through dialog, what the problem was. Everybody reading her book knew

where she was coming from. Her use of the the word was in furtherance of a noble goal to reduce racism, not fan the flames of it.

[Snake Alchemist]

152. Can i still sing along to DJ Fletch in the car? nt

[HappyMe]

155. It's a horrible word that I never, ever, ever use.

I don't tolerate it's use.

[duhneece]

157. I agree 100%

It's about owning a word, taking it back from its use to shame & vilify someone. That's why it is ok for a black to use the 'n' word; ok for a woman to use cunt, but not ok for someone outside that group to use the word.

[bart95]

160. it's not ok for anyone to use it, if you really want it to go away

the rule of 'you can use it if you are part of the group', does have it's consequences, if it then becomes overused within that group

because if it really were that offensive, no one would use it.

when people are really disturbed about a topic, they dont talk about it

"my friend said, "it is never, ever okay for white people to say (n-word)."

there comes a point where you hve to set priorities - what means more? Equality, or your exceptions to it?

because exceptions lead to more exceptions, not all of which you may control

[slackmaster]

164. I do hope that you and your friend would make allowances for artistic expression

Especially art that lampoons racism.

[Taverner]

171. Yep. Spike Lee is right.

He said no white person ever earned that right, and he's right

And if you're quoting someone, just say 'the N word' or simply 'N'

I'm sure context will work in your favor

[bart95]

173. so he's advocating 'qualified equality'

the definition of which, can get quite complicated - both ways

sometimes, it's simpler just to advocate equality, period

if that's what you really strive for, and value more than power and revenge

Did MLK envision a future where his children would 'would be judged by the content of their character, rather than the color of their skin?', or a future 'where they can use that word and white people cant'?

MLK is honored because he set his sights high

[derby378]

231. Belated +bazillion

Either we are equal, or we aren't. Plain and fucking simple. You don't want me to use a racial epithet, don't convey upon yourself any supposed "right" to use it your own happy self.

[dont h8--appreciate]

206. Spike Lee is a proven idiot.

His last little stunt re-tweeting an incorrect address during a very charged situation showed that very well. I have always enjoyed his movies but he is now acting quite racist himself. Innocent people could have died because of his angry and impulsive action.

"Earned the right" to use a demeaning term. How ig'nant can anyone be? It's wrong for ALL people to use slurs. We teach people how to treat us and regard us, plain and simple.

[Taverner]

210. Opinion noted, Mr 11 posts...

[Ikonoklast]

174. I can call my brother a dumb bastard and get away with it. He's my brother.

If *you* call my brother a dumb bastard, two people will be kicking your ass.

[bart95]

175. but if you were to consistently and publicly call him that

you would lose support for kicking someone, and you might end up with 4 people kicking the 2 of you

that's what happens when you press the 'it's ok when i do it, because i'm part of it'

[Ikonoklast]

179. Nope. Doesn't work that way. You are not allowed to call him anything.

*I* am allowed.

*You* are an outsider, and do not have the right, no matter what *I* do.




And my brother and I took on five guys at once who thought they had the odds in their favor.

They were dramatically incorrect, and we showed them the error of their calculations.

[bart95]

182. no, here's how it works

if i were a bystander, and someone walked up to your brother and called him that, and you got into a fight, i'd say that the other guy picked it

BUT, if you called your brother that, then someone else did, and you got into a physical altercation, as a witness, i'd say you were looking for a fight, or at least not avoiding one

you think you make 'the rules' adn that other people's opinions dont matter? try getting pulled into court on what you're saying and find out

[Ikonoklast]

185. You try it first. I'll watch.

I'll call him a dumb bastard, then you can walk up and do it, too.

I'll take my chances in front of a judge on that one.

He'd laugh you out of court.

[bart95]

186. no, i dont have a chip on my shoulder

keeps me out of fights and court

but that's probably over your head

[Ikonoklast]

190. Used to spend a lot of time in courtrooms.

My younger and older brother are both attorneys.


Real life is far different from your hypotheticals.

And please try harder with the insults, yours barely registered; I know a good insult when I see one, I've been insulted by experts before.

[bart95]

195. 'I've been insulted by experts before.'

is that kind of like 'I've been thrown out of better places than this"?

[cbdo2007]

184. Right....cause white people are the only ones who are verbally racist....

HAHAHAHA whatever.

I don't use the n word or any other derogatory words about other races or ethnic groups. It would be nice if they would do the same.

[Iggo]

189. And I say it's never okay for anyone to say it....black, white, or other.

Okay for everybody or okay for nobody.

No in-between at my house.

[Quantess]

191. Oh yeah, I say n***** all the time.

I pepper it in between sentences 20 times a day I sing it in the shower.



WTF? Why is this even a topic of discussion at DU? I NEVER use the word! I thought it was a pretty rare word...

[nofurylike]

197. great comments! thank you!! i apologize i couldn't reply yesterday, or till tonight. nt

[turn off your mind]

201. Nope. Fail.

It's wrong for ANYONE to use it. It just is. It is wrong, as a woman, for me to drop the C-bomb. I don't and I won't. I teach people how to treat me. If I use such ugly slurs, then it makes it less and less charged. I see those types of words as designed to demean and dehumanize. Why in bloody hell would I perpetuate such hate?

[MellowDem]

202. Your friend seems narrowminded and bigoted...

I mean, whites just can't wait to say the "n-word" with glee in any context? Really? I mean, it's like she's got a certain broad-brushed, negative stereotype about whites in her mind here.

As for "so and so can say this but others can't", the logic of such an argument is poor.

Now, if somebody from the KKK uses the n-word, will it have a powerful effect? Only to the extent the power the word is given. Now, by hoping that only black people will use it, but whites won't, how does that take away from it being used as a racial slur by racists? It doesn't at all as far as I can tell.

And what about other races saying it? The discussion from your friend just seemed a little simple I guess.

I am white, and have no inclination to say the word. I understand the incredible sensitivity to it. But I also understand context.

Really, telling whites they can never say it in any context, even quoting other people, seems to only give the word more power to racist whites who do say it, since they have now broken this "taboo". The oversensitivity to it, and to race in general, by some is part of the problem in many ways. Some whites now "refuse to see race" and won't partake in discussions about race because they have been told that it is offensive to even talk about it. How is that addressing the problems of race and racism? It doesn't. The whole n-word oversensitivity by some is just a subset of that idea. I've seen some black people, like your friend, who seem to assume that all whites really want to say the word and actually care about wanting to say it. The truth is, many white people could care less about ever using the word. To me, it's giving the word a lot more power to racists who do use it.

I have seen comedic sketches of this numerous times, where a white guy and his black friends are standing around, and the black guys are using the word with each other, and the white guy, wanting to fit in, uses it in the same way, and then everyone looks at him like what did you just say? I gotta say, I find the whole thing kinda juvenile. It seems to promote a sort of playground "no girls allowed" attitude of exclusion and a "nana boo boo" sort of logic. If the white guy is really that "seperate" from his friends that he causes offense so easily, it makes you wonder what the point of being offended in such a case is? Besides exclusion for the sake of claiming a privilege. I guess I find it funny that many instances where the white person using it is criticized is simply a case of the white person wanting to fit in and be accepted. The reaction basically says, "you aren't one of us, never will be, and are not accepted". Of course, this only applies to black people who use the word among themselves. I realize there are many black people who don't and find it offensive regardless of who says it, which actually seems consistent at least.

I remember way back on a reality TV show, a black guy would good naturedly make fun of a white guy by calling him a "white ass", when the white guy called him a "black ass" in the same good natured way, the other guy was incredibly offended. Again, what is the point of being offended in that context other than exclusion, seperation, and to claim a sort of privilege?

Such attitudes would seem to only make white people be extremely uncomfortable and overly sensitive around black people at all times, always on their toes. Gotta wonder how our already segregated society will more easily come together with that sort of "on the razor's edge" attitude.

[LaydeeBug]

217. a-MEN. nt

[theaocp]

211. Here's an interesting idea

What if I was a white kid who was adopted by a black family and they used the word to culturally express themselves within their circle of friends and family? Quite frankly, I would think it would be an acceptable use. That being said, I am white and don't use the term because it doesn't fit into my cultural references. Using it feels like trying to wear a tight pair of pants: can I do it? Sure. However, it feels uncomfortable.

[a la izquierda]

212. I'm a historian, and the word comes up in documents often...

I positively HATE having to say it when I read out loud, even though my students are well aware that I am reading a primary document. Generally, I'll say "n-word" (which I actually said yesterday). It makes my skin crawl.
And I'm a white girl. But I've been called enough ethnic epithets to know how words feel on one's ears.

[MrSlayer]

214. How am I to sing along with N.W.A. without it?

It's kind of impossible. I don't use the word otherwise.

[nofurylike]

215. this is about the responsibility of white people who want to be

responsible.

a generous black activist was willing to help me understand this, and i am hoping to impart that onward.

for years, the n-word pretty much vanished from DU, thank goodness! when one OP used it, and no one stopped it at that, that thread soon had 20 uses. the next day, another post used it. the next, another.

that is as i was informed: when we have an 'excuse' to 'get away with' using it, too many jump to use it.

dial-up has made it nearly impossible for me to access this entire thread. i keep trying, and i will keep trying. but please accept my apology for seeming to abandon the thread, and for seeming to take other posters for granted. i will add more as i find it possible to.

thank you all, so very much, for your thoughtful and insightful comments.

[grantcart]

219. There is only one situation when you can use the word "Nigger"

Recommending the outstanding autobiography of a young Dick Gregory

If you haven't read it then you should.



"Momma, everytime you hear that word you know that they are advertising my book"

[nofurylike]

220. see? exactly the point! said it with relish, didn't you?

grantcart!

[grantcart]

221. i always talk about Dick Gregory with great relish.

Reading his book changed my life and spending an evening with him was a high point I will cherish forever.

[nofurylike]

222. i can understand that, absolutely! and an evening with Dick Gregory?! i would too!!

still, interesting that in typing, one can even quote a work without writing the word out, making it completely clear what it is. there, with a reason to feel free to write it out as if not actually saying it - after all, it quotes Dick Gregory, and who would ever slight his consciousness?! - one writes it, not only in this thread, but in the subject line ....

alas ....




btw, i do envy your evening

[grantcart]

229. I figured it would be provocative enough that it would attract some unsuspecting folks

who would have normally walked on by to turn on to Dick Gregory.

And those that are familiar with him would get it.

He had a way of saying something funny that also captured the whole essense of a thing.

"I spent 20 years in Mississippi one night".

"The KKKers in Birmingham will say 'some idiot went too far' when they bombed that church and killed those girls. The people in the rest of Alabama will say 'those idiots in Birmingham went to far'. Outside of Alabama the rest of the people in the Deep South will say those red necks in Alabama 'went too far'. In the North you will hear "those Southerners 'just go too far' and in Canada they will say 'those Americans just went too far'".

I can still hear him saying it.

Like I said Dick Gregory is like an infection, once you get his voice inside of you it changes the way you look at things. Had quite an impression when I was 14.

[nofurylike]

233. great thought, grantcart! i hope it will!

consummate brilliance, Mr. Gregory's. wow, splendid quotes, those!

"I spent 20 years in Mississippi one night"

that speaks volumes, doesn't it? sadly.

Like I said Dick Gregory is like an infection, once you get his voice inside of you it changes the way you look at things. Had quite an impression when I was 14.

(please tell us about that some time, grantcart? maybe on the AAG forum?)

thank you so very much

[nofurylike]

226. i'm sorry my thread has outgrown my dial-up. i can reply to one or two posts

posts at a time, but then it takes a very long time to do another. i will keep replying as i can, but please accept my apology for not replying sooner, or if i do not get to reply at all.

thank you all so very much!!

[Fool Count]

227. I don't know about "never, ever". Imagine a situation when terrorists set up a powerful bomb

to go off in a crowded football stadium and the only way to disarm it is to say that word.
And let's say there are only white people around. I posit that it would be quite appropriate
then for a white person to say it. So there goes the "never, ever" imperative.
If that situation seems too improbable to you, consider another less outlandish hypothetical.
Let's say you are a white person and you are doing subtitles for HBO's Def Comedy Jam,
so that deaf people may enjoy its humor too. And let's say you lost your arms in a childhood
circular saw accident or were born without them. Anyhow, you cannot type and must use
voice recognition software to do those subtitles. Obviously software couldn't process the
comedians' speech directly, so it is up to you to repeat all words of the routine in a clear
voice with a neutral accent. I'd say in this situation it is not only appropriate but obligatory
for you to say that word. So here we have two counterexamples, and it only takes one to
debunk any absolute claim.

[nofurylike]

228. oh noes!1 my absolute claim is irrefutably rebutted!!1!

that was very clever, Fool Count. and it stands in good company with other, almost as well-reasoned, counterexamples here.

thank you for the effort.

[Fool Count]

230. OK, I see you were not impressed with my counterexamples.

You probably found them too improbable to matter. How about this one then.
Let's say you are a white person. And suppose you just watched a new episode
of Def Comedy Jam featuring, I don't know, Chris Rock. Assume you are a huge fan
of his and assume you laughed your ass off watching it and decided to call your
friend (who is also a white person, an even bigger Chris Rock fan, and cannot afford
to pay for HBO) to convey the hilarity of Chris' new routine. You are not just a fan
of Rock's comedy but also a gifted impressionist who can nail his voice and intonation
pretty well (not so improbable, given how distinct Chris' delivery is). On top of it,
you have a photographic (or rather phonographic) memory which allowed you to
memorize the routine word for word. So the easiest way for you to delight and
entertain your friend is by simply reproducing the whole set in your best Chris Rock's
voice. Would it really be unacceptable not to sensor out that offensive word?
Or do you think that the very act of enjoying racially explicit black comedy makes
a white person a racist?

[nofurylike]

234. i was impressed! superb parody!!

but this one seems more genuine, yes?

okay, so, "Let's say you" call a friend. your friend would understand, hopefully even admire, your prefacing your reproduction of Chris Rock's routine with, "when i reach a certain offensive word beginning with N, i will, instead, say 'bleep,' but you'll get the rest, completely!"

not a bit detracting, though clear use of that word would diminish it.

"the very act of enjoying racially explicit black comedy" does not make a white person a racist - most could learn a lot from it.
repeating it, leaving in that word? i bet it would be spoken with relish, don't you think?


but it would also cause many black people to look at each other with a pitying look for the white person doing it; and many to be disgusted, or angered.


thank you, again, more, Fool Count!