K&R if you think Zimmerman is guilty of murder

[Hugabear]

Don't give me any bullshit about waiting for a jury trial. Of course, he should be subjected to the legal process.

This is about what WE think. Obviously, we all have our opinions. So if you believe deep down that Zimmerman is a racist murdering fuck, K&R the hell out of this thread.

[onehandle]

1. As soon as he pursued the kid, instead of listening to the 911 cop, he was guilty of something.

If he doesn't serve time, there will be riots.

Regardless, the NRA will make sure that we all continue to be endangered by dickless vigilantes.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

18. Exactly right. nt

[Tunkamerica]

26. 911 operators aren't cops. That alone is not any type of offense.

[notadmblnd]

35. His first call was not to 911. He called dispatch directly.

Now I m unsure if it was the police dispatch or a 911 operator that told him not to follow, but if it was dispatch, it's a whole different story.

[caseymoz]

2. Don't know but . . .

. . . the indications point strongly to it. The state should have more than enough to bring him to trial. If what we've been hearing is true, he's guilty of some count of homicide.

I'm afraid a jury would be hung, though.

[JDPriestly]

3. I think we have to wait until all the evidence is in and the jury

decides.

Personally, I think Zimmerman will have a hard time proving that his claimed belief that he was in serious danger was reasonable and an even harder time proving that he was not the aggressor and that Trayvon had a right to defend himself.

But, my opinion is utterly worthless. Juries are unpredictable, and we do not know all the facts.

[bluedigger]

41. So how do you form opinions on non-criminal issues?

Do you just conform to what the majority thinks all the time?

[JDPriestly]

114. I weigh the facts and evidence available to me in the light of my

life experience and my knowledge.

No, I am not a conformist. But the jury gets the last word.

[Ecumenist]

4. His ass is as guilty as HOMEMADE SIN!

[Number23]

23. I concur, Ecumenist!

[JI7]

5. yup, he murdered Trayvon

[juajen]

6. If he hadn't, there wouldn't be this ridiculous coverup.

[Lithos]

7. Murder has a legal meaning

It spans many forms, manslaughter, etc.

However, if you want me to state that Zimmerman willingly sought some violent outcome, willingly desired to do so in a vigilante manner while armed and doing so after being told explicitly not to do so, then yes. Do I think Zimmerman was sane and there was absolutely no self-defense, and that he knew what he was doing when he pulled the gun and the trigger, then yes.

Should he go to jail? Yes. Should he go for the rest of his life? Yes, he has shown a history of increasing violence which by Florida standards generally supports this viewpoint.

L-

[BeHereNow]

8. Are you suggesting a Lie Detection test? Because I am.

K&R, btw.
BHN

[renegade000]

9. Manslaughter at minimum,

given what we know. Depending on what other evidence the police might have, they might be able to build a strong case for murder.

[Kalidurga]

10. The is zero evidence to support Zimmerman's lies about self-defense...

and the lies just keep piling up. So, I have to say he is guilty of manslaughter at least, but I would go for making a case of premeditated murder.

[truthseeker68]

62. Blinders on much?

Last edited Sun Apr 1, 2012, 03:51 PM - Edit history (1)

I don't know if Zimmerman is guilty or not in this tragedy. I think it will come down to whose voice is determined to be screaming for help for 40 seconds on the 911 tape. If its Martin"s then Zimmerman's story falls apart and his goose is cooked. But to say there is zero evidence backing his story shows you must have blinders on or watch NBC. Evidence such as:
1) The police report states Zimmerman was bleeding from his nose and the back of his head and had grass stains on his back. That report is evidence which backs Zimmerman's story.
2) The only eye witness that I know of that actually saw at least part of the fight says that Martin was on top pummeling Zimmerman below him and that Zimmerman was the one screaming for help. That eye witness testimony is evidence that backs Zimmerman's story.
3)Zimmerman's neighbor says that Zimmerman had bandages and swelling on his face in the days following the killing. His testimony will be evidence supporting Zimmerman's story
4) Although Zimmerman's history may suggest he could have violent tendencies so does Martin's as evidenced by his school troubles and his Twitter and Facebook accounts. His twitters degradingly referring to women as "bitches and ho's", his posts such as "Plzz shoot da #mf dat lied 2u!", and his twitter name "No_ Limit_ Nigga, could, if verified to be actually his, be evidence backing Zimmermans story that when he asked Martin what he was doing there, Martin responded by punching him in the face , knocking him to the gound, and pummeling him, by showing that Martin could have developed the thug or "gansta" mentality that has been so destructive to the lives of young black men in this country.

Your comment that the lies just keep piling up is certainly true. NBC was caught red handed doctoring the 911 call to lead their audience to believe that Zimmerman was racially profiling Martin. NBC's doctored version:

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.

The actual conversation:

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy — is he black, white or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.

So instead of NBC's version that icould lead their viewers to think that Zimmerman thought Martin was up to no good because he was black, the actual recording shows that the reason he stated Martin's race is because he was asked by the dispatcher. NBC says they have launched an internal investigation.

The so called "Smoking Gun" ABC police station video ABC decided to show was of low resolution and ABC proclaimed no injuries were evident. But the Sanford police dept. has much higher resolution videos on which it appears you can see injuries to Zimmernan's head.
Why did ABC choose to show the low res version and why did they cover up Zimmerman's head with a breaking news banner when the whole point of the video was to see if he had injuries? High res. version can be found at the link below.

All of the evidence I've presented could be wrong or fabricated. The responding officer, medics, Zimmerman, eye witness, and neighbor, could all be engaging in a conspiracy by concocting a story that Zimmerman sustained injuries that are not evident on the low res. video ABC chose to show. I tend to doubt it.

I used to wonder how in the world supposedly normal humans could in the last century be ginned up through hatred into a mob mentality to lynch or convict blacks while totally ignoring any exculpatory facts or evidence.

I see that mindset in your "zero evidence" post






http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fsanfordfl.gov%2Finvestigation%2Ftrayvon_martin.html&h=yAQHJLWZ6

[robinlynne]

64. talk about blinders.

1. the police report you refer to is directly contradicted by the video tape from the police station. not a single bandaid. no grass. no blood.
in addition that particular police report was created one week AFTER the incident. And is different from the police report filed on 2/26. That cop may go to jail too.
2. That eye witness complained the police prompted him, that in fact he could not see the color of the coat. the police said was it a red coat?
3. this is directly contradicted by the video tape.
4. irrelevant.

[truthseeker68]

69. we'll see

1. Any thought of waiting to see what the medics say before you convict? I'm sure the prosecutor has interviewed them. Have you viewed the hi res video tape I linked to? Still inconclusive to me but it looks like you may be able to see some injuries.
If the cop fabricated a police report he should go to jail. Did the original report filed on 2/26 state that the officer observed blood on Z's face and back of head and grass stains or do the differences relate to something else?

2. The account I am referring to was an interview with a local news station, not from a police report. It's possible the news station fabricated or distorted his story but it was not an NBC affiliate so that lessens the chance.

3. See #1

4. Your opinion. I hope the deaths and maimings of hundreds, maybe thousands of young black Americans due to the tragic thug/gangsta culture is not as irrelevant to you as it seems to be to Al and Jesse.

[uppityperson]

71. Your last point, wtf? This is not just about the death of a young man, but about ignoring

it. The police wanted to charge Zimmy with negligent homicide, but it got dropped higher up. Why? The "investigation" was stopped. And that is the problem here.

If you or yours want to pretend it is just about someone getting killed, and claim Sharpton and Jackson feel other deaths "irrelevant", then you very much miss the point of the outrage.

[truthseeker68]

77. reply

My understanding is that the prosecutor felt the evidence did not support an arrest. A new prosecutor was appointed, supposedly a very tough one, and she has yet to have him arrested either. Even though there is huge lynch mob like mentality pressure to do so. Even the Justice dept is getting involved. That tells me that the evidence at this point that you and I are not privvy to(The new prosecutor has ordered a media blackout) probably supports Zimmerman's story. The investigation continues.

My point about Sharpton and Jackson actually applies to the entire country. I believe we have a NATIONAL TRAGEDY going on in our country and in particular our inner cities in regard to our black citizens. Crime and violence are rampant and most of it is black on black. Education sucks. Goverment dependence, poverty, underemployment, fatherless children who grow up to have more fatherless children. The kids growing up in this environment don't have much of a chance. Add to this environment the gangsta culture of violence and you have a disaster.

Where is the "rage" that inner city blacks are being subjected to this culture. It seems irrelevent to our politicians from both parties, irrelevent to the NAACP, irrelevant to the MSM, and yes irrelevent to Jesse and Al. In fact, over the past few decades it has just become the new normal. All of the above are saving up their rage for when a hispanic shoots a black and the hispanic is not arrested fast enough. Then the rage explodes and accusations fly.

If, and I realize it is a BIG IF at this point, Zimmerman is telling the truth, then I think the gangsta culture may be a contributing factor in Trayvons's tragic death. Here's why. I would think that if a person were walking through a neighborhood and noticed they were being watched and followed they would have every reason to be concerned or fearful. They may decide to confront their "stalker", which Zimmerman is claiming Martin did by demanding to know why Zimmerman was following him. Zimmerman responded by asking Martin what he was doing there. No crime had been committed to this point. A reasonable person would have responded with a "none of your business", "Who are you to ask", "Why do you want to know", "I'm going home" etc. But instead, according to Zimmerman, Martin decided to resort to violence. He allegedly punched Z. in the face, knocked him to the ground, and pummled him. That's when the first crime occurred. Felony battery. Why did Martin decide to resort to viloence the result of which would be his own death instead of just demanding an answer. Was it the thug culture that if you feel you are "dissed" you resort to violence first?
Possibly. But we can't discuss that possibility. Its irrelevant.

[uppityperson]

78. Yup. You miss the point. Even when it is explained, you still don't see it.

[truthseeker68]

83. The point

I think your point was " The investigation was stopped." I thought I answered that. Prosecutor thought they didn't have enough for an arrest and the investigation continues. ???

[uppityperson]

89. Zimmy's history "may suggest" he could have violent tendencies? So does Trayvon's? wtf?

Since Zimmy assaulted a cop, and has been defined as having violent tendencies by those who knew him, well yes. Not "may suggest he could" but he DID. Trayvon's school troubles of having an empty baggie show he has violent tendencies? Since his FB account was shut down and that picture supposedly being him and his facebook have been proven to be another young man, wtf again. A twitter name of "No_Limit_Nigga" proves Trayvon simply punched Zimmy when "asked" what he was doing there? Again, wtf?

Zimmy is the victim since Trayvon has developed the thug or "gansta" mentality. What. The. Fuck.

Aside from the facts showing no face punching, knocking Zimmy to the ground, etc, what. the. fuck?

Oooo, am I now, a middle aged white babe, now showing that "gansta" mentality?

WHY are you even on this board? Seriously. Why?

4) Although Zimmerman's history may suggest he could have violent tendencies so does Martin's as evidenced by his school troubles and his Twitter and Facebook accounts. His twitters degradingly referring to women as "bitches and ho's", his posts such as "Plzz shoot da #mf dat lied 2u!", and his twitter name "No_ Limit_ Nigga, could, if verified to be actually his, be evidence backing Zimmermans story that when he asked Martin what he was doing there, Martin responded by punching him in the face , knocking him to the gound, and pummeling him, by showing that Martin could have developed the thug or "gansta" mentality that has been so destructive to the lives of young black men in this country.

[truthseeker68]

97. Please don't put words in my mouth

I never said Trayvon's twitter name proved anything.
I did not say Zimmy is the victim. Zimmy says he is the victim.
I don't think you are showing a gangsta mentality. You are just arguing in a shrill tone.
I've answered in a previous post why I am on this board. I didn't realize that you had to march in lockstep here and a dissenting opinion is not welcome.
I will agree with you that Zimmy's history "does suggest" rather than "may suggest"
Sorry, but I am pretty passionate about the plight of inner city children. Kids and young adults in the inner city deserve to have a normal, safe childhood. I define normal as being able to go to sleep without the fear of bullets coming thru the walls. I volunteer with these kids. It is not fair what we as a society are putting these kids through. I don't understand why some feel it is "racist" or "right wing" to talk about it. Or that it is in your words "irrelevent".

[uppityperson]

98. It is you saying you have given "evidence" to support Zimmy's story that is getting us here.

I do not understand where or why you are saying anyone here feels "it is "racist" or "right wing" to talk about" inner city issues or childhood issues. You say don't put words in your mouth, yet you do the same to us.

Where did I EVER say this..."Or that it is in your words "irrelevent"'? I did say "If you or yours want to pretend it is just about someone getting killed, and claim Sharpton and Jackson feel other deaths "irrelevant", then you very much miss the point of the outrage." But no. I never called anything irrelevant.

The poster who did use that term said your point #4 was irrelevant in this case.

Again, your "evidence" and continued support of it is what we are saying you are wrong about. And trying to distract by "oh look, gansta culture that no one here cares about" is not working.

Neither is your borderline insults. "shrill tone" my butt.

[truthseeker68]

106. Sorry, Wasn't accusing you of the racist, RW comment.

It was Che Gueverra. Quote:

"Gangsta culture, really?

Any more right-wing racist bullshit you want to offer? "

That's what I was referring to.

My apologies on the irrelevant remark. I thought it was you who said point # 4 was irrelevent. I stand by my point that our political and other leaders treat the plight of inner city citizens as irrelevent. Nothing is being changed or getting better.

It's a shame that you nor anyone else here cares about a problem that is killing so many black youth and filling up our prisons. Sorry you feel it is a distraction.

My apologies if you were insulted by my shrill comment. You described your tone as gangst. I toned it down to shrill.

If the evidence I presented is disproven so be it. Your points about it were well taken. If they are correct than I have been corrected to large extent. That's what a constructive debate is all about.

[uppityperson]

109. No. It was Hugabear. And no, you are not the victim or the only caring one.

I didn't describe my tone a gangst but asked "Oooo, am I now, a middle aged white babe, now showing that "gansta" mentality?"

See. I asked you a question and now you say I described myself this way. Can you tell the difference between "am I ___?" and "I am ___."?


In this case, whether of not Trayvon referred to himself as N__ is irrelevant. And since this thread is asking do you think Zimmerman is guilty of murder, it is inappropriate and irrelevant here.

"It's a shame that you nor anyone else here cares about a problem that is killing so many black youth and filling up our prisons. Sorry you feel it is a distraction."

You miss the point. Again. You are threadjacking a thread which was made for 1 point. Read the OP. Discussing issues like you want to here is threadjacking and quite suspicious since that is NOT what this thread is about. Just your continued attempt to defend Zimmy by claiming Trayvon was a "gansta" or "thug". And now your protests that "It's a shame that you nor anyone else here cares about a problem" is not helping. There are plenty of other threads that it might fit in better.

Not in a thread "Do you think Zimmerman was guilty of murder?"

[truthseeker68]

115. What????

Does a thread saying "Do you think Zimmerman was guilty of murder?" on this website mean you can only answer yes. There is only one correct answer? Is saying you may have doubts unacceptable? Seig Heil?

When did I ever declare myself a victim? I ry to avoid that at all costs.

I have never heard of threadjacking. I read the definition and plead innocent. At least overtly.

[uppityperson]

116. K&R if you think Zimmerman is guilty of murder

"Don't give me any bullshit about waiting for a jury trial. Of course, he should be subjected to the legal process.

This is about what WE think. Obviously, we all have our opinions. So if you believe deep down that Zimmerman is a racist murdering fuck, K&R the hell out of this thread."

[truthseeker68]

112. I read the definition

and plead innocent. Or at least ignorant. I did not try to purposely change the content of the thread. I just answered a post I felt was unfair. You picked up on it and we had a nice debate. If your "facts" turn out to be true I will be the first to say so.. Until then I am witholding judgement because I don't think any of us know what the true facts are yet.

[K Gardner]

84. Did you really sign up here to post 3 threads about gangsta culture?

WTH?

[truthseeker68]

87. Hi K Gardner

No, I just saw someone posted that there was "zero evidence" supporting Zimmerman's story. I disagreed and posted a few examples of evidence that I thought supported Zimmerman story. My screed on thug/gangsta violence and how it might relate to this case was one of those points. Sorry if it is irrelevent to you.

[uppityperson]

91. What "evidence" did you post?

An "eyewitness" that was coached by the cops? Video evidence shows no grass stains on Zimmy's shirt, no blood on him at all. A police report different from the initial one written by a cop who is in trouble for it? That "evidence"?

You were called on that "evidence" immediately and veered off into "gansta" culture made Trayvon assault Zimmy.

And you still miss the point. The point being that there was "zero evidence" supporting Zimmy's story. That for some reason this got dropped by the higher ups until media attention got it pulled back out. And now there is an investigation as to why "evidence" was made up, true evidence was ignored, why it was dropped. Couldn't have anything to do with the state prosecutor, local culture, Zimmy being white, Trayvon being black, Zimmy having a retired judge for a daddy. Nope. According to you, there just wasn't enough evidence.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1002501211#post64
1. the police report you refer to is directly contradicted by the video tape from the police station. not a single bandaid. no grass. no blood.
in addition that particular police report was created one week AFTER the incident. And is different from the police report filed on 2/26. That cop may go to jail too.
2. That eye witness complained the police prompted him, that in fact he could not see the color of the coat. the police said was it a red coat?
3. this is directly contradicted by the video tape.

[Hugabear]

88. Gangsta culture, really?

Any more right-wing racist bullshit you want to offer?

[truthseeker68]

90. You don't live in a big city do you.

Kids are getting shot or are shooting people every night. For very little reason.
Am I wrong or is it irrelevent? Why is it right wing to talk about it? Personally I think it's racist to think it's irrelevent.

[uppityperson]

93. Yup, white and hispanic guys driving around shooting black kids is "gansta" culture.Why are you here

[truthseeker68]

101. Thug culture then

Maybe gangsta just refers to the music. If so, I stand corrected. Why is it racist to discuss it. If white culture has big problems with child molestation or prescription drug abuse or whatever I don't think its considered racist to talk about or to say it is mainly a white problem.

[uppityperson]

103. Who says it is racist to discuss it? Edited.

I see a poster asking "Any more right-wing racist bullshit you want to offer?"

You: 4) Although Zimmerman's history may suggest he could have violent tendencies so does Martin's as evidenced by his school troubles and his Twitter and Facebook accounts. His twitters degradingly referring to women as "bitches and ho's", his posts such as "Plzz shoot da #mf dat lied 2u!", and his twitter name "No_ Limit_ Nigga, could, if verified to be actually his, be evidence backing Zimmermans story that when he asked Martin what he was doing there, Martin responded by punching him in the face , knocking him to the gound, and pummeling him, by showing that Martin could have developed the thug or "gansta" mentality that has been so destructive to the lives of young black men in this country

Proof has been given that Zimmy did assault a cop, was in trouble for domestic violence. Trayvon was suspended for an empty pot baggie. Not very comparable "violent tendencies".

You: If, and I realize it is a BIG IF at this point, Zimmerman is telling the truth, then I think the gangsta culture may be a contributing factor in Trayvons's tragic death. Here's why. I would think that if a person were walking through a neighborhood and noticed they were being watched and followed they would have every reason to be concerned or fearful. They may decide to confront their "stalker", which Zimmerman is claiming Martin did by demanding to know why Zimmerman was following him. Zimmerman responded by asking Martin what he was doing there. No crime had been committed to this point. A reasonable person would have responded with a "none of your business", "Who are you to ask", "Why do you want to know", "I'm going home" etc. But instead, according to Zimmerman, Martin decided to resort to violence. He allegedly punched Z. in the face, knocked him to the ground, and pummled him. That's when the first crime occurred. Felony battery. Why did Martin decide to resort to viloence the result of which would be his own death instead of just demanding an answer. Was it the thug culture that if you feel you are "dissed" you resort to violence first?

You have defended your "evidence" and when shown it was false, now try to distract by saying someone said it is racist to discuss inner city, "thug", "gansta" issues.

[truthseeker68]

107. You misunderstood

Honestly, I'm not trying to distract. You made some good counterpoints although I think they have yet to be proven as fact. Still, you have shifted my opinion in your direction somewhat. The gangsta/thug stuff is something that is a big issue with me as I have worked with inner city youth and see what a raw deal they are getting and how much the thug attitude is hurting their lives. Sorry if I digressed so much but i promise it wasn't an attempt to distract.

[truthseeker68]

108. What is it then?

A lack of available shooting ranges that causes them to use a row of shotgun houses as a shooting gallery? Why do you think people drive around shooting other people? I think drugs and thugs. What about you?

[uppityperson]

110. K&R if you think Zimmerman is guilty of murder? Threadjack link definition...

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Threadjack

[LanternWaste]

118. Poverty.

I think drugs and thugs. What about you?"

Poverty.

[uppityperson]

120. + a brazillion. Poverty is the base of those problems.

[TBF]

117. A black child was gunned down while he walked home with his skittles and iced tea.

You can add all kinds of fantasy to support your justification of this event, and that still isn't going to make it right. The. child. had. no. weapon. A white adult stalked him with his weapon and shot him dead.

This is not brain surgery.

[robinlynne]

122. 4 black unarmed inncocnet people have been shot by white men in the past few months. half

of those shootings were police shootings.

[robinlynne]

125. So the rposecutor drive 60 milews perosnally at night to let the guy out of jail..

becuas he didn't think there was enough evidence. Although the chief investigator did.
believe that? really?

[Kalidurga]

79. Two voice analysts have come to the conclusion that it was not Zimmerman's voice..

they further state that it is a 98% likelihood that it is Trayvon's voice. Given that it is not Zimmerman and there were only the two of them present in this altercation I would say that it is 100% certain to be Trayvon's voice.

The police report is directly contradicted by the video tape. So who you gonna believe the cop or your lyin eyes?

Enjoy your blinders.

[truthseeker68]

86. Like I said

in my original post. I think the case hinges on who was screaming for help. If and when the government specialists, I would assume FBI, come to the same conclusion as the voice analysts you cite, then I would expect Zimmerman to be arrested immediately thereafter because in my view that would destroy his case. So far that has not happened.

[varelse]

11. K&R

We all know a trial is required for justice. I do not require a trial to have an opinion. My opinion is that the man is guilty of murdering a child.

[The Traveler]

12. If I had to place a bet

I would without hesitation bet on Zimmerman's guilt.

[shimonitanegi]

13. It is a matter of common sense.

No one should instigate a confrontation with a loaded gun unless there is a Clear and Present Danger.

[Stardust]

14. Guilty. K&R

[loyalsister]

15. From what I have heard, it sounds like it

but I feel like I should not have heard it.
I am afraid that the potential trial has been compromised severely. Due process cuts both ways and Trayvon Martin's family is getting screwed over by the infotainment industry.

[Cali_Democrat]

16. The thing is...

had it not been for social media and traditional media bringing this case to national attention, the Sanford police and the State Attorney would have swept this under the rug. It's precisely because of the massive outcry that they're taking another look at this.

Also, why do you think the potential trial has been compromised?

[loyalsister]

22. I'm not convinced that

We couldn't have learned about and addressed a lack of investigation without hearing all of the evidence we have heard.

The evidence is compromised by the fact that media outlets have enhanced versions electronic evidence. They have been copied and recopied creating a situation where the integrity of each may be questioned if there is the tiniest difference. The defense may have an opportunity to provide their own version of video and audio records. Who knows what they may come up with.
Aside from that who hasn't heard about this story? How will they find a jury?

[Duct Tape]

17. K&R I can't take

anyone who believes Zimmerman seriously. It's too obvious that those people are either racists, oblivious to the racial situation here in the U.S., or non-thinking viewers of network news. Or all of the above.

[DesertFlower]

19. K&R. nt

[ProfessionalLeftist]

20. I do, and they're blatantly allowing him to get away with it

As Al Sharpton said, running out the clock. There is NO REASON for them not to arrest and charge him with murder.

[Shanti Mama]

24. He's innocent until proven guilty, but he sure looks ripe for a guilty verdict.

He must be arrested. He must be tried. A jury of his peers must see/hear all the evidence and he deserves the best defense possible. That is what the rule of law is all about.
So, my post would be "K&R if you believe you've seen sufficient evidence to warrant Zimmerman's arrest and trial for murder."
I would K&R that one.

[EmeraldCityGrl]

25. Cold Blooded Killer.

[barbtries]

27. yep.

hate crime, first degree.

[magical thyme]

28. when he followed after being advised not to, it became stalking

especially when he got out of his car and ignored his own agreement with the police to meet them by the mailboxes, and instead followed him off the regular sidewalk and down the paved path between the townhouses. And got close enough to him to touch him.

When he presumably knocked him down and shot him, yes, murder. And even if Trayvon punched him and knocked him down first, and then he fired up at him (evidence strongly suggests otherwise, but EMT report plus autopsy should clarify one way or the other), Trayvon was 2. rightfully defending *himself* from a stalker and 2. did not deserve to be shot and killed by said stalker. Furthermore, the stalker did not need to kill Trayvon to defend himself, since there is absolutely no evidence of an extended scuffle or brawl between the two.

Trayvon's girlfriend was on the phone with him until within 1 minute of the police arrival.

In that 60 seconds, he was heard calling for help, crying, two shots fired and dead. Those facts are supported by girlfriend's phone records, 911 recording and eye witness evidence.

There was clearly no time in that 60 seconds for -- in addition to the above-- any kind of scuffle, let alone for Zimmerman to have tried to retreat to his car, been followed back and assaulted by Trayvon, nor for Trayvon to have punched Zimmerman in the nose and pounded his head into the cement, etc.

[malaise]

29. Yep

Rec

[rbrnmw]

30. k&r

[Shankapotomus]

31. An unconscious racist, at best, but

but still a racist. Also, exceedingly dumb to have caused this entire incident.

In the end, is there a single shred of evidence Martin was robbing anyone?

And yet he is dead?

K & R

[DLevine]

32. K&R. n/t

[leveymg]

33. 100th rec

[no_hypocrisy]

34. Manslaughter at the least, murder at the most.

That's why a trial is necessary. We don't have enough certain evidence about his mentality. It COULD be murder if it's shown Zimmerman had a "depraved indifference to human life".

[OllieLotte]

36. I think Zimmerman was a cop wannabe. Who was looking for trouble.

I think that the situation got out of hand and he ended up defending himself. Everyone agrees that they got into a scuffle and one of the two managed to get on top of the other. If it was Zimmerman on top, some sort of murder charge should be brought. If he was on the bottom, then perhaps a manslaughter charge would be more appropriate. I think they will be able to tell who was on top.

[MoonRiver]

37. K&R

I'd add a few FL officials are accessories to the crime. We won't know who they are until the federal government investigates.

[xoom]

38. I will wait for all the evidence to come out so we can see how exactly things went down.

Until then, I only know what the media has said about this case. I dont trust the media.

[hack89]

39. Manslaughter at a minimum. nt

[bluedigger]

40. k&r

[polly7]

42. Yes. Stalking and murder. I don't know the term in legalese for it, but I hope he gets to spend

the rest of his life in prison for whatever they convict him of.

[99Forever]

43. Or at the very minimum..

... Voluntary Manslaughter. Furthermore, there are cops that should be charged as Accessories to this crime.

[riverwalker]

44. absolutely quilty

and the corrupt Sanford PD needs thorough investigation.

If you carry a hammer, everything looks like a nail. He had his 9mm and was itching to use it.

[WillyT]

45. K & R !!!

[libodem]

46. .

[jwirr]

47. K&R I remember case which claimed self defense long before this and they at least were invest-

igated in a proper way. This new changes to self defense laws are not right and should all be repealed. There is too much wrong in this case to be sd and it should have been investigated thouroughly like the old cases I remember.

[brush]

48. Head vs Concrete

zimmerman is a lying sack of you know what. Anyone who repeatedly has their head "bashed" against concrete (zimmerman's own words) would be knocked cold or killed. Concrete is incredibly hard and doesn't give an inch. I know as I once fell on my knee on concrete and snapped my patella tendon clean off the bone. I still remember just the feeling of the impact, it was just a sudden, final stop; no give, no nothing, just a sudden incredibly hard stop. And that's just a knee. Think of the damage that would be done to someone's head that's repeatedly bashed against something so hard.

[Hugabear]

60. Great first post. Welcome to DU.

I don't know if he would have been killed - people have survived having their heads pounded before. But paramedics sure as hell would have wanted to make sure he at least didn't have a concussion or any other brain damage.

[brush]

105. Thanks

Thanks for the welcome. Hugabear.
If zimmerman wasn't killed from having his head bashed against concrete, he would definitely have needed medical attention. And yet there were no bandages in the police station video taken 30 minutes later, no ambulance, no wooziness, no assistance needed getting out of the car, nothing. NFL quarterbacks wearing protective helmets have to be taken out of games from being slammed onto their head on astroturf which is much softer than concrete and has some padding under it so sensible people surely understand that zimmerman's claims are nothing but made up claptrap to try to get out of his biggest "Fu ck up" yet. Bet he was even wondering if his father could get him out of this one.

[fightforfreedom123]

49. It is disgusting

when the bigots say, "We must wait for more evidence."

Translation: "We must wait for more evidence that proves Zimmerman is Not Guilty. That God damn Nigger deserved it."

Zimmerman is Guilty.

Zimmerman must be Arrested.

Zimmerman must be thrown in Jail.

Zimmerman must be brought to Trial.

Zimmerman must be denied Bail.

[Tarheel_Dem]

50. K&R

[ffr]

51. Was hoping to find out what K&R was

What does K&R mean? And for that matter, what does 'K&R nt' mean? I gather it's text message speak for kudos or something.

[yardwork]

56. K&R means "kick and recommend." "nt" means "no text."

People use K&R or variations to kick the thread back to the top of the page and indicate that they've clicked the "recommend" button. People use "nt" or variations to show that there is no text in the message text box. That saves people the trouble of clicking on the message text.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

52. I don't know.

That's what trials are for. Angry Internet mobs don't have a say, which is a good thing. What I "believe deep down" does not matter - only what the state can prove in a court of law.

[lunatica]

53. He killed Trayvon.

Is he supposed to be innocent after killing an unarmed teenager who was going home to safety?

[slampoet]

54. He is guilty of SOMETHING, but i can't accurately say if it was manslaughter or not.

[yardwork]

55. K&R

[99th_Monkey]

57. That's like saying "K&R if you think the sky is blue" nt

[Jawja]

58. Yep.

Unarmed teen in a place he was supposed to be was tracked and shot. That is murder.

[stuntcat]

59. .

[workinclasszero]

61. No doubt Zimmerman is a killer

Every piece of evidence points to Zimmerman stalking and murdering Trayvon.

Its a bloody f**kin outrage that the Sanford PD did not follow correct procedure when they picked him up and processed him. Then they let this killer go with his murder weapon and minority hunting license intact aka Stand Your Ground.

I'm sure the fact that Zimmermans daddy is a judge has nothing to do with his baby boy getting out of all the violent things he has done in the past and now daddy is tryin like hell to turn his boy into a serial killer!

[nadinbrzezinski]

63. I will wait for the court

'thing 'bout innocent until proven...

Even if I could not sit in that jury...

There are many reasons, for one I fear my mind is already made. This is actually a problem for the court when it goes to trial, finding a jury.

[Hugabear]

65. I don't think it will be impossible to find a jury

Very doubtful that many DUers would be able to sit on that jury, but I'm sure they'll be find other people. More than likely, they would have to move the trial to another venue.

However, if they were able to field a jury for the Casey Anthony case, I'm sure they can find people to sit on Zimmerman's jury.

[AtomicKitten]

66. Killerman is guilty.

[patrice]

67. Does writing this OP feel good? SOLICITING these kinds of responses from others will aid the Defense

[Hugabear]

68. You honestly believe that?

We all have the right to state our opinions in this case.

And no, a bunch of people stating their opinions on the internet is not going to hurt Zimmerman's chances of getting a fair jury trial. If I believe Zimmerman is guilty as fuck, it doesn't matter whether I announce that on the internet or during jury selection - I'm not going to be on that jury. But they'll still manage to find enough people to seat a jury. Even if it means moving the trial to another location - which often happens in high-profile cases.

Besides, if they could find a jury for the Casey Anthony case - where virtually nobody was defending her prior - they'll manage to find enough unbiased people for Zimmerman.

[AndyTiedye]

70. "Stand Your Ground" isn't Supposed to Mean "Hunt Down and Kill"

Trayvon Martin was found lying face-down. Usually someone who is shot from the front would not fall forward.

The video. No blood, not bandages, no bruises, no sign whatsoever that Z'man had been in a fight for his life.
The medics cleaned him up, they say. I guess they stopped at the all-night dry-cleaners to clean up
his clothing too. No blood on that at all. Shoulda been lots, between the broken nose, the head gash,
and Trayvon bleeding out onto him from being shot in the chest at close range. No grass stains either.

The screaming wasn't Z either. We now have two experts that confirm what everybody except the Sanford PD
and the Z'man fan club already knew.

The undertaker didn't see any signs that Trayvon had been in a fist fight.

Zimmerman, and evidently the people who run things in Sanford, think of "Stand Your Ground" as open season on black people.

[font size=6]Self-defense my[/font]

[frogmarch]

72. Yes. k&r nt

[elias7]

73. from what I've read, I think he has earned an arrest and a trial

can't K&R for guilt, but all signs pointing that way...

[SunDrop23]

74. He is...but consider his background and...

...you might be left to believe - like I do - that he will walk. And in the process the defense will throw everything and anything they can to make Trayvon Martin look like someone who it was really okay to shoot and kill.

CIA in the family.
Three prior arrests and each time he gets out of them.

I really hope I am wrong.

As a parent, I am heartbroken when I think about what Trayvon's parents must be going through. The anger. The sadness. The rage. The emptiness.

As a human being, I am really distressed that I live in a country where one person kills another and the authorities respond with a resounding "so what?"

SMH

[qanda]

75. Kick!

[marshall gaines]

76. yep

yep i believe that very thing. what does k&r mean. forgive my net lingo ignorance

[Swede Atlanta]

80. As an attorney, I cannot state he is guilty of murder but......

I think there is probable cause for him to be held on charges, subject to state law.

The bottom line is this has nothing to do with "stand your ground". This has to do with a deranged man who has a long sordid history in this area, acting out. Unfortunately unlike his previous outbursts this time it resulted in the death of a young man.

All I ask is that Florida authorities allow the facts to be heard in a proper venue and justice rendered. I think the police force wants to do anything but that because the facts appear to reveal not only misjudgment but also possibly a cover-up.

[mainstreetonce]

81. Anyone who doesn't think this

Is a fool

[obietiger]

82. K&R

trigger happy guy

[yortsed snacilbuper]

85. k&r

K&R

[H2O Man]

92. I surely do.

[Initech]

94. Absolutely without question. The more the evidence stacks up the more lies are exposed

[Kencorburn]

95. Zimmerman is as guilty as the rhetoric surrounding the defense of his actions.

Today as I was perusing the internet I came across this disturbing post:
http://networkedblogs.com/vMvvz
As a Florida resident who has been following this story closely, I’m glad I have finally found a sane refuge of thoughtful and rational analysis of our world. As a black man—and I don’t say African-American because I can trace my family back to 1790 in this country—there is a bit of emotional charge on this subject, for me. I have seen and heard the Zimmerman apologizers and rationalizers use terms like “race-baiters”, not realizing that the use of that term belies their true intentions. As far as whether or not Zimmerman is guilty, there are a few facts that can’t be distorted by the media lens, whether blue or red:
1) Zimmerman got out of his car, at a dead end and followed Trayvon Martin.
2) Zimmerman never sought treatments for his “serious, llife-threatening” injuries that night, in fact, the EMS even cancelled that ambulance that was called for him. (Now I was worried that I was close to wearing diapers and having to be spoon fed by my estranged brother due to head injuries, I would get checked out.)
3) The investigator recommended filing charges. The SA drove miles in the middle of the night to see George Zimmerman. (Inappropriate at least, conspiratorial at worst.)
4) The most important fact, It doesn’t matter what Trayvon Martin was like, whether he was a bad egg, or if he was an angel. George Zimmerman sought a confrontation. It doesn’t matter if Zimmerman was out of shape—which he was not, or rather Trayvon weighed 160 or 183. Zimmerman put himself in that situation, by his own poor judgement.

[Tom Ripley]

96. K&R

[spin]

99. K&R At this time I feel he should be arrested and prosecuted ...

but I might be wrong since I don't have all the information that the investigators are gathering.

[BiggJawn]

100. K&R from a gun owner.

He was told to sit his ass in his truck and let the Po-Leese handle it, but stalked an unarmed young man and shot him anyway.

Hell, you might even make a case for pre-meditation.

[Kencorburn]

104. Finally, someone said it.

It all depends on the results of the investigation, but if he is convicted, it would seem to me that the state, if they were so inclined, could make a for pre-meditation. I am not a gun-owner. I fully believe in the right to bear arms, but someone who goes about their everyday activities with a weapon fully-loaded, let alone one in the chamber, is someone who is looking to fire that weapon.

[BigDemVoter]

102. K & R

+1

[unkachuck]

111. K&R....n/t

[Suji to Seoul]

113. k&r

eom

[hifiguy]

119. K&R nt

[Blue_Tires]

121. +1

racial profiling, making a false call to police, violating another American's civil rights, second degree murder, and a willful cover-up by the police...

[Rex]

123. Oh hell yes, I think beyond a shadow of a doubt in my mind.

He is lying his ass off playing CYA with the local PD.

[noiretextatique]

124. guilty