Zimmerman's Physical Fact Challenge---And we're supposed to believe Trayvon was the aggressor here?

[kpete]

FRI MAR 30, 2012 AT 09:20 AM PDT
Zimmerman's Physical Fact Challenge
by Vyan

...............

The next part is most intersting, Trayvon is inside the gate, Zimmerman is outside and in order to catch up he has to drive in by "The Clubhouse". That means he did this.



...........................

So that leads us to this, and the final confrontation.



I'm accounting here, slightly, for the fact that Trayvon had a head start after entering the gate - but Look how much further Zimmerman had to have traveled on foot in order to catch up!

What he and his family would like for us to believe is something more like this.... which would mean that Trayvon was even further ahead, and decided to double-back for some reason when he's been retreating this entire time.



Of course, there's no evidence of the "doubling-back" based on the sworn statement by his girlfriend - but wait it gets worse. Zimmerman's claim is that Trayvon "Cold Cocked" him. That means he hit him from behind before getting him on the ground, that would mean that after chasing all this distance, Zimmerman turned around too. Something like this.



So after all this mad-dash driving to catch up, all this running - we're supposed to buy the idea that Zimmerman just quit, then suddenly Trayvon - who'd been leaving this entire time and was almost home - decided to turn around and chase Zimmerman? Then supposedly he got on top of George, had him immobilized - smashing his head against the concrete - even though on the video he doesn't look injured, doesn't have a bloody nose, doesn't have visible lacerations or bleeding on the back of his head and doesn't have visible grass stains on his jacket.

Vyan
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/03/30/1079169/-Zimmerman-s-Physical-Fact-Challenge

[alcibiades_mystery]

1. It takes a particular kind of person to believew Zimmerman's account

We have a word for that kind of person.

[bobbyblack]

6. And that word is...

Rightard. A condition brought on by an addiction to Foxcatin. Known to cause severe dementia, paranoia delusions and an unshakable belief in outlandish conspiracy theories, Xenophobia, and aggressive behavior. So far there is no known cure or treatment, other than installing a brain and/or heart.

[HockeyMom]

2. Remember this is Florida in February

Many people would have been outside; walking dogs, bbq, running, kids playing, talking to neighbors. The odds of all this happening unseen and unnoticed are very slim.

[RockaFowler]

4. It was raining, though

So there may not have been people outside at the time

[HockeyMom]

7. Depends if it was one of the downpours

or just drippy rain. You would be surprised how many people around here walk around in the rain. Downpours are over very quickly and a few minutes later the sun could be out. Ok, too late in the night for that in February.

[polichick]

9. There was a teenager walking a dog...

...whose mother went on Al Sharpton's show with her attorney.

The boy saw one person on the ground and said his crying stopped after the gun shot.

[robinlynne]

23. All the 911 callers said it was dark. they couldn't see. looks like only one person saw what happene

[HockeyMom]

34. After 7 would be dark, but

In these developments in Florida, there are lights by all the building enterances, apartments and condos. There is still enough light around to see where you are going. Some places even have street lamps on all the corners. I have lived in a condo complex in SW Florida.

[robinlynne]

40. No. All the callers said it was too dark to see. Until the police got there with flashlights. It was

in an alley behind the building.

[madaboutharry]

3. The other piece of bullshit is this;

Zimmerman claims he got out of his car to check a street sign. Does anyone believe that he didn't know the names of the streets there. It is a ridiculous lie.

[Mz Pip]

5. That would make him

a very incompetant neighborhood watchman if he doesn't know the names of the streets in his own damn neighborhood.

[Mariana]

11. Did Zimmerman actually claim that?

Or was it one of the various people who are going on teevee to defend him? None of them seem to agree on what happened - you'd think they would have worked out their story before they got in front of the cameras. It's a ridiculous lie no matter who said it, an whoever it was should be ashamed to ever show his face again for making himself look so stupid. The police call clearly indicates that Zimmerman got out to follow Trayvon.

[madaboutharry]

26. It was reported early on, Here:

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/03/19/US-to-investigate-killing-of-Fla-teen/UPI-85941332170292/

Police said Zimmerman told them he got out of his vehicle to get a look at a street sign, and Martin attacked him from behind. Zimmerman said he shot Martin because he was afraid for his life.



Read more: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/03/19/US-to-investigate-killing-of-Fla-teen/UPI-85941332170292/#ixzz1qdBWNi5T

[1StrongBlackMan]

22. That was just ...

an attorney guided "reason" to explain why he got out of the call in the first place.

It probably went something like this:

Attorney: "George, you idiot, why did you get out of the car after the dispatch operator told you not to?"

GZ: "I was going catch that @#$% and hold him for the police."

Attorney: "No!!! {turning to zimmerman the attorney} We have to explain away why you got out the car after this idiot was told not to chase the boy. {turning back to george} Now ... Let's try this again! George, why did you get out of the car after the dispatch operator told you not to?"

GZ: "The 911 cop never told me not to chase that @#$%$ ... He just suggested that I let the boy go ... F'ing coward!"

Attorney: "George shut the hell up and focus." {nodding for george to look at his father, george the attorney}

GZ: {turning towards his father the attorney and repeating what his father the attorney is mouthing.} I got out of the car to look for a street sign."

Attorney: "Very good ... Call the press conference."

[hedgehog]

8. If they had to go through gates, there should be time stamps for both of them.

[SteveABG]

10. I don't understand...

Where the "most likely" paths come from. What account supports this?

[Aerows]

12. Location of the store

Location of where Trayvon was spotted by Zimmerman going into the back gate, and the location of where Zimmerman's vehicle was found parked.

The red dotted line that continues illustrates when Zimmerman was on the phone with 911 after Trayvon entered the gates.

It confused me at first, too, but after realizing that, it made sense.

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. ...

[Aerows]

18. Do you agree or disagree?

I don't know if you are agreeing with me, or disagreeing in the assessment of this diagram/map. I'm just referring to what I read in police reports of where Zimmerman's vehicle was found, the location from where Trayvon was walking, and the 911 call.

Do you think it is reasonable or unreasonable?

[alcibiades_mystery]

20. I agree with Fawke Em, below, who disputes the map

because the map likely mistakes the front and back entrance of the complex. If the front entrance is off Oregon Ave and the back entrance is where Twin Trees is written, then the diagram is obviously wrong, since the transcript describes Zimmerman as saying that Martin is heading for the back entrance. At least that's what it appears. I don't know where they started, in other words. of they started at Oregon Ave, however, it makes more sense to me for Zimmerman's car to be where it is if he followed Martin past the Clubhouse rather than circling all the way around.

[Aerows]

21. That makes sense, too n/t

So much is unknown here, and frankly, there is so much ambiguity because of how ridiculous the statements of the SPD and Zimmerman have been.

[HereSince1628]

13. This killing happened within 20-25 feet of 4 residences

Based on the number of dormers and driveways it looks like 10 residences
had what seem to be small patios or pads that led out onto the "backyard" lawn.

Granted people may have the shades drawn, and might not have been looking
out at the moment the attack started, But if there were loud voices prior to the
the screams for help, those would have sounded like they were on someone's patio.

We know at least one resident had time to call and get a response from the 911 operator
before shots were fired.

Although it's probably a matter of chance if anyone saw Zimmerman approach Trayvon,
it seems quite likely that several people responded fast enough to see the middle
and end of the confrontation.

[robinlynne]

25. 8 people heard and called 911. they did not go outside to look. they were scared.

One boy was outside and saw it. his account supports trayvon.

[Fawke Em]

14. Nice diagrams. Too bad they're wrong.

Trayvon entered through the front gates near the clubhouse (top of screen). Zimmerman says Trayvon ran toward the back gate - not that he actually saw him there.
Retreat View Circle is INSIDE the community. The road outside is Oregon Road or something like that.

I think Trayvon came in the front gates from the top, headed straight, stayed on Twin Trees until he got to the cutback.

That said, I don't know where Zimmerman was when he first spotted Trayvon - only that he saw him near the clubhouse. That part of the diagrams might be accurate.

[Fawke Em]

15. To make my post clear:

Zimmerman says on the 911 tape:

We’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy. It’s Retreat View Circle. The best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle.

1111 Retreat View (clarified later in the call) is near the clubhouse at the top of the screen.

Later, Zimmerman and the dispatcher say:

He’s running. [2:08]

911 dispatcher:

He’s running? Which way is he running?

Zimmerman:

Down toward the other entrance of the neighborhood. [2:14]

911 dispatcher:

OK, which entrance is that he’s headed towards?

Zimmerman:

The back entrance.

Trayvon didn't come in the back entrance - he was headed that direction.

[leftupnorth]

17. I think the 'back entrance' he was referring to is on Twin Trees at the bottom of the pic.

But I could be mistaken about that.

[Fawke Em]

29. Correct.

Sort of bottom right.

[alcibiades_mystery]

19. Agreed

Makes much more sense if Zimmerman follows him to the entrance path where he breaks off the street. That's the only real explanation for the location of Zimmerman's car. Otherwise, we'd have to see Zimmerman rushing all the way around to try to cut off Martin, when he could have just parked his car on the other side of the courtyard and followed him in.

But this version is also very threatening to Martin. Martin, say, notices Zimmerman following him on the street, say by the clubhouse and mailboxes. Martin takes evasive action at the path, getting off the street because the guy following him is in a car. That guy parks his car and pursues on foot. At that point, if it's me, it's anything goes. The reason you get off the street is to determine whether this person is really following you, or if you're being paranoid. Nope, he's really following. Maybe Martin runs, maybe not. But Zimmerman dismounts and walks into the courtyard/backyard area.

What happens then is, of course, at issue. The notion that Martin goes after him as he heads back to his car strikes me as simply implausible, since Martin is taking clear evasive action probably just second before. You don't run away from somebody, then go after them when they stop chasing you. That makes ZERO sense.

[Aerows]

24. I can't imagine

anyone agreeing with the idea that once Zimmerman exited his vehicle, he was using anything anywhere near "good judgment". He was chasing a person, intent on catching them.

That's not self-defense.

[alcibiades_mystery]

30. I don't agree that Zimmerman used good judgment

Where do you see that?

[Aerows]

32. I don't agree that he used good judgment at all!

I wasn't saying you did, either, and that wasn't what I was implying. I was just saying that anyone who accepts his statement of events at face value is several sandwiches short of a picnic, and probably missing the blanket, the ants and is having their picnic in Antarctica.

Which I think you would agree.

[leftupnorth]

27. Updated diagram:

[img][/img]

[Life Long Dem]

28. Zimmerman said he was attacked at his truck.

Where was his truck? How and why did they end up on the path?

GZ was returning to his truck. Bullshit.

[alcibiades_mystery]

31. No way that happened

His truck was on the street. He killed Martin in the courtyard, and likely confronted him there as well. Truck was too far away for the struggle to have started there.

What Zimmerman says is that he was "walking back to his truck." This is his attempt to make the self-defense claim: he had broken off pursuit and headed back to his vehicle.

[Aerows]

33. Which, considering how long he pursued him

And where the confrontation occurred, makes Zimmerman's statements completely illogical.

Still, for me is the fact that he had not a drop of blood on him. Honestly? I think he shot Trayvon at range. Whether accidental or on purpose, I don't think he was anywhere near close enough to claim his life was in danger.

[alcibiades_mystery]

35. Yes, it makes no sense...it is an attempt to make his actions match the statute

Never before in the history of teenagers has a teenager who was being chased turned around and pursued the pursuer once that pursuer stopped chasing him. It's a ridiculous notion. If you're nervous and walking away from somebody quickly, you don't turn around and pursue them if they stop chasing you. Much more likely is that Mr. Martin stopped walking away, or Mr. Zimmerman caught up to him, or both. This matches the girlfriend's statement.

[Aerows]

38. "Mr. Martin stopped walking away, or Mr. Zimmerman caught up to him, or both"

And then a tragedy that could have altogether been avoided happening if Zimmerman would have kept his butt in the vehicle until the police got there

[Life Long Dem]

36. More questions about the truck from dailykos

When did Zimmerman go back to his truck to have this so-called encounter with Trayvon?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/03/29/1078912/-The-Rest-of-Zimmerman-s-911-Call

Zimmerman's self-defense claim vs. Zimmerman's 911 call.

Zimmerman told the Dispatcher that he was following Trayvon Martin.

When told not to follow he said "okay".

Beyond this part of the 911 call, Zimmerman's account is directly contradictory to what the detective told Tracy Martin.

Zimmerman:...He ran.

Zimmerman:...I don't know where this kid is

Zimmerman:
Could you have them call me and I’ll tell them where I’m at? [3:49]

911 dispatcher:
OK, that’s no problem.


vs.

According to Tracy Martin, the Sanford, Fla., detective recounted this sequence of events: Trayvon Martin walked up to Zimmerman’s vehicle and asked why he was following him. Zimmerman denied following the youth and rolled up the car window. Minutes after Trayvon walked away, Zimmerman got out of his vehicle.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/03/29/1078912/-The-Rest-of-Zimmerman-s-911-Call

[Aerows]

39. Got out of his vehicle

Instead of letting the police do their jobs, and took matters into his own untrained, inexperienced hands.

[Life Long Dem]

37. They ask another good question.

If Trayvon and Zimmerman were fighting and Zimmerman shot Trayvon at close range, how did Zimmerman have enough time to get Trayvon off of him before witnesses and police came out to see what happened?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/03/29/1078912/-The-Rest-of-Zimmerman-s-911-Call