We can't keep doing this.

[De Leonist]

Seriously people we can't keep doing this. We need to end consumerism, capitalism, markets, and money or we will drive our species into even worse conditions than we had a few hundred years ago. Not to mention driving several other species into extinction as well, some of which ARE incredibly important. Anybody who has stayed at least modestly informed knows what our economic system is doing not just to us but to the very ecological systems on which we depend for our lifestyles here in the west and elsewhere. What should replace it ? At this point I really no longer care. Call it Socialism, Anarchism, what the hell ever. But if we continue down this road capitalism will eventually cause far more harm than it ever will good.

It's all over the place. Our own pesticides are killing the bees we rely on to pollinate our crops. Small earthquakes are happening where they haven't happened "naturally" in who knows how long because of fracking. Our consumption not just of fossil fuel for transportation but for production of the toys and goods we all love to consume so very much is dumping massive amounts of carbon in the Atmosphere. Which in turn is causing increased weather related disasters. Our level of demand and consumption for beef, pork, and chicken and other meat from livestock is causing their waste to leak into local water supplies. The methane from their flatulence is contributing to Global Warming. Which would actually be hilarious if it didn't threaten to cause even more Climate Change. Our current Agricultural practices are far more about profit and meeting demand than sustainability and so we are seeing a great deal of top soil erosion.

Than you have the massive poverty the world over. The overwhelming majority of humanity is living in squalor through no fault of their own. The current darling of us lefties the world over, Thomas Piketty, has himself said that some level of inequality is necessary for capitalism to work. I realize I sound as if I am just not another Socialist doing what we always do, railing against capitalism.

But here's a few questions to those who would preserve capitalism. Since we know Global Warming to a large degree is caused by not just our level of consumption of fossil fuel for our cars. But also for manufacturing purposes so companies can produce all those sweet, sweet, goods that we all love to buy so much. Do you not think we need to cut our consumption ? If so, do you not think that will also cost large numbers of people their jobs not just here but in the developing world as well causing even more mass poverty ? Again if so than why should not just America but Humanity as a whole preserve a system like this ?

Truly there is no logical reason to keep this system going. The fact is no form of capitalism can be kept functioning without large amounts of consumption. Whatever Keynes or Krugman or hell even Piketty himself may say I just cannot see capitalism not eventually leading to massive devastation of the very environmental systems we depend on. Why ? Because Capitalism itself threatens these very systems. If we choose capitalism we choose eventual destruction. That plain that simple.

[JaneyVee]

1. At this point, I'd be happy with

Regulated capitalism, alternative energy, and climate change preparation. Either we adapt or we die. It doesn't need to kill jobs, yet could create jobs in new and undiscovered fields i.e. vertical farming, solar industries, re-equipping manufacturing facilities with state of the art technology, etc.

[De Leonist]

4. It's not just about energy.

The problem is the consumption levels necessary for any form of capitalism to work. Capitalism, Markets and Consumerism incentivize only the short term and thus we will only end up wasting the Earth's Natural Capital in the long run and causing even further environmental devastation.

[MohRokTah]

7. Yeah, but it beats the Soviet five year plans all to hell. eom

[De Leonist]

17. Anti-USSR

Trust me the majority of Modern Socialists are even more Anti-USSR than they are Anti-Capitalist. Though plenty of us do think it had potential to be much better than what it was.

[MohRokTah]

19. You'll never convince a majority of the US that pure socialism is the answer.

Hell, you won't convince more than a very small minority of the Democratic Party of that.

Socialism is a failed experiment.

[De Leonist]

20. Only State Socialism

While it is true the Soviet Union certainly failed, North Korea is a dictatorial clusterfuck, and China has begun reverting to Capitalism. All these countries really prove is that Socialism is not very good as a politically centralized Authoritarian system. There are plenty of Socialist Approaches to governance and economics that do not advocate Total State Ownership. One approach that I particularly find interesting is Participatory Economics otherwise known as PARECON. Google it and you'll see what I mean.

Also there is no such thing as Pure Socialism. The Core of Socialism is the Socialization ,or as I've heard some term it the Communalization, of the means of production, that's it. There are many Socialists who would be more than willing to keep Market structures intact just as long as the workers (or ,again, the community) controlled the means of production through worker owned co-operatives. My advocacy against markets is simply because I think they are too inefficient to provide for human needs.

Maybe you ought to widen your knowledge of Socialism beyond just want you were told in History class about the Soviet Union.

Lastly, Whether or not Socialism is comes after Capitalism if you honestly think we can really continue with the things are and not dig ourselves into worse circumstances you are sadly mistaken

[MohRokTah]

24. Cooperatives are fine in their place.

They have to compete in the market place, though. If they cannot compete, they go broke.

I'm unwilling to force cooperatives, though. It has to be a free market economy. A free market of ideas. If your cooperaties are the most efficient model, they will usurp all other models. If not, they will not.

Theoretically, employee owned companies that do not have to pay investors dividends and do not have the quarter over quarter expectations of growth should be able to undercut every publicly traded corporation in the market. In practice, not so much.

[TBF]

45. "It has to be a free market economy" -

only if we want the 1% to own everything and eventually completely wipe out all life on this planet.

[MohRokTah]

47. That is a lasisez faire market.

Unregulated markets can never be free.

[cer7711]

34. Nonsense!

Last edited Sun May 11, 2014, 03:29 PM - Edit history (1)

Look across the pond: See all of those small-"d" democratic socialist countries with a higher standard of living, better educational systems, lower infant mortality, single-digit gun homicide rates, etc.?

I hate to break the news to ya: Socialism works just fine. Much better, in fact, than the brutal system of robbery and rapine prefrred by our plutocratic oligarchs, "Scroogilistic Crapitalism".

[starroute]

5. I expect to see short-term blowout patches that preserve the existing power structure

But the real systemic changes are going to take a lot longer.

I mean -- it's been 45 years since Stonewall, and that fight is still only half-won. On the other hand, same-sex marriage has never been a matter of planetary survival, and this is.

But I still expect genuine change to take another fifty years, at minimum, and in the nearer future I expect to see capitalism making one last desperate attempt to prove it can go green before it finally activates the built-in self-destruct program.

[Spider Jerusalem]

35. Good luck with preserving that existing power structure...

when permanent droughts in the West have reduced US food production by 15%, when Las Vegas and Phoenix are uninhabitable because there's not enough water because Hoover Dam and Glen Canyon Dam have run dry, when Miami and New Orleans are under water, when oil's $200 a barrel and there's fuel rationing and lines at gas stations, when civil unrest and riots over things like food, fuel and water are a real possibility...and all of that is possible to probable (although not 100% certain) within the next 15-20 years.

[starroute]

37. That's why I said short-term blowout patches

Give or take the usual idiots, I think the establishment is coming around to the idea that they have a set of real problems on their hands and need to do something about them. But they intend to do that in a way that preserves centralized control and corporate dominance.

What I see ahead is a mixture of official "green" initiatives -- renewables, carbon caps, whatever it takes -- emergency measures to ward off food riots, and perhaps even those legendary FEMA camps to handle any mass refugee problems. But it will all be done with an eye to preventing real power from devolving into the hands of the people. That's the second wave, and it's where there *real* battles of 20-40 years from now are going to come from.

[yeoman6987]

31. I was so pissed off the other day

I was telling some dumb people that we need to desperately take Global Warming seriously. They came back with well in 1970 they had a Time Magazine cover that said, "by 2000, both New York City and Washington DC were going to be underwater". I can just imagine where they got that from......We will never win if we have to look back at old Time Magazines.....who cares what they thought in 1970 for goodness sake. Sorry for the vent.

[oneofthe99]

2. Which system would you propose?

[L0oniX]

3. Target the enemies and attack ...and stop fighting against ourselves.

Howard Zinn said that nothing of real importance was achieved with out mass protests and civil disobedience. I believe that it what it will take ...but first we need to join together ...if that is even possible. IMO I can't see snuggling up with corporate 3 way centrists ...all they care about is winning the vote and keeping up the status quo. Big things need to be fixed and it won't happen with the political gamer's. It's serious ...not a game.

[Maedhros]

13. Well, they've certainly got us dancing to their tune.

The Red Team vs. Blue Team mania is hyped by both sides as they fight amongst themselves to divvy up the spoils while we, the actual constituency, are instructed to sit down, shut up and vote how we're told.

Until we get out of that cycle we'll continue to get screwed.

[MohRokTah]

6. Yeah, Democracy and Capitalism are the WORST SYSTEMS POSSIBLE!!!

Except for every other system in the world.

[De Leonist]

11. Democracy Yes, Capitalism No

There are plenty of other proposed non-capitalist models that have not been tried yet and contrary to what your upbringing along with common opinion may tell you no they're not all based in "fantasy".

Discoveries in modern neuroscience and psychology along with what insight can gained from the Social Sciences has shown humans to be far more flexible than we ourselves may consider. There is no reason that given time and adjustment one or more of those models maybe able to work just as well if not better than Capitalism.

[MohRokTah]

18. Not willing to try 'em.

I simply do not see the intrensic problems in capitalism that you do. When well regulated with government doing the things government does well like building roads, hospitals, and handling the money in the healthcare system, capitalism is AWESOME.

[De Leonist]

21. That is because your operating under a false assumption.

The idea that Capitalism is something that is not damaging to the Ecological Systems we depend on is a grave error especially when much of the empirical evidence suggests otherwise.

[MohRokTah]

22. I reject the premise of your argument. eom

[De Leonist]

25. Fair Enough

One question though

I keep seeing that "eom" thing what is it ?

[MohRokTah]

26. Goes back to Usenet.

End Of Message.

[De Leonist]

28. Before my time than

I only got the internet seven years ago.

[MohRokTah]

29. I go back to the days of ARPANET

I've been in the business for more than three decades.

[House of Roberts]

33. Don't feel alone.

I started in late 2005. I was rightfully afraid it would take up too much of my time. I still underestimated just how much.

[2naSalit]

8. My favorite matra on this topic...

It's the biosphere, stupid.

Great post, I agree with what you're saying and have been making this argument for years. And I always get the 'capitalism, love it or leave it" attack in response from most.

[cer7711]

9. Scroogilistic Crapitalism Must Die!

The sooner the better.

[okaawhatever]

10. Maybe you'd be happier at Socialist Underground or Marxist Underground. nt

[De Leonist]

15. Nah

I like it here I think I'll stay.

[BrotherIvan]

38. Seriesly?

You do know that most Democrats are concerned about income inequality, climate change, and overconsumption of resources and that under a capitalist system all of those things are inevitable?

[Avalux]

12. Do you know why people keep the system going?

We are lost, not in touch with who we are - creative energy in a world of structure - so we find artificial means to amuse us. That's really all it is. Consumerism is a symptom of a sickness that keeps us from being who we truly are.

If we don't figure it out collectively, the most intelligent species on the planet will have the distinct honor of causing our own extinction. The earth will be fine, and will probably be relieved when we're gone.

[handmade34]

51. oldie but good...

https://www.youtube.com/user/storyofstuffproject

[rickyhall]

14. The sooner we kill ourselves off the sooner Earth will fix herself

[Puzzledtraveller]

16. The earth will fix itself regardless

which is why we will die off.

[Bonx]

42. But will eventually be destroyed by our dying sun

[Warren DeMontague]

50. Yeah, well, the world is a house on fire.

there's nothing you can hold, for very long.

[Warren DeMontague]

44. This sort of post is why DU is total fun central, these days.

[Initech]

23. Tyler Durden:

"In the world I see: you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests that wrap Rockefeller Plaza . You wit wear hard leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You will climb the wrist thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. And when you look down you will see people laying strips of venison in the empty car pool lane of some abandoned super highway."

[De Leonist]

27. As romantic as that vision is

I've no wish to advocate Anarcho-Primitivism. I don't deny that some part me has always loved that quote. But while our hunter gather ancestors actually did longer lives and grow taller than many people think I'm afraid the fact is an attempt to return to such a state of material conditions would cause the deaths of a great many people. Not something I think anyone wants. Though many Primitivists seem to think that such a massive die off is going to happen regardless of what direction we take.

[MohRokTah]

32. I can admit, Anarcho-Primitivism could be thrust upon society.

As capitalism approaches a purely laissez-faire state, the likelihood of total economic collapse increases.

Without strong governmental oversight, laissez-faire capitalism is the ultimate result.

Thus, through the efforts of a small number of super-capitalists, total economic collapse becomes a highly potential scenario, and when that happens all of society must devolve into Anarcho-Primitivism.

[Zorra]

30. On the contrary: They can, and they will.

"When the Last Tree Is Cut Down, the Last Fish Eaten, and the Last Stream Poisoned, You Will Realize That You Cannot Eat Money".
~ Alanis Obamsawin

[2banon]

36. I Approve This Message..

[mike_c]

39. Garrett Hardin was right all along....

I still think The Tragedy of the Commons was one of the most important and prescient papers ever published: https://www.sciencemag.org/content/162/3859/1243.full

Someone will always cheat. Capitalism is constructed to laud and reward cheating for personal advantage, but it arises naturally out of human nature. As Hardin points out, the only solution is coercive, and even still will likely fail. But ask yourself-- suppose you had the solution to all of world's human caused problems, and implementing them would lead to generations of sustained better living, but the only way to do so was by coercion, probably draconian. What's better, letting humans be their and the world's worst enemy, or creating a prison life that forces them to be nice? That's the choice that Hardin proposes we face.

[De Leonist]

40. I'm not unaware

I'm aware of the Tragedy of the Commons. But I think we underestimate how much of that is because we are raised in a Capitalist System. In fact I suspect that upbringing causes and incentivizes behavior far more than what the Tragedy of the Commons might imply. Also, you make it sound as of there is no other options that exist between between the two. Yet I highly doubt that is the truth.

We use coercion for many things. Some of which aren't necessarily bad. For instance take the fact that we can't own slaves. Well do we not use coercion to make sure that people can't own other people. Using Coercion to enforce laws is not a new thing. Not only that but I think what ends up causing the tragedy of the commons is lack of education. While it is true people are not consistently rational beings that fact is we are as a species capable of being rational when given the correct information.

Lastly, I think might we able to discourage self-serving behavior that is overly destructive once people understand that to do so is necessary for Self-Preservation.

[mike_c]

41. don't get me wrong....

I don't disagree with you, mostly. I suspect I'm more cynical though. I think humans will sell their grandmothers for the last bit of fossil fuel or for any other bit of personal advantage.

[Warren DeMontague]

43. Actually, sorry to disrupt the rant, but poverty worldwide is actually decreasing.

Significantly.

The last couple decades have seen an unprecedented development in terms of both a global middle class and the movement of literally hundreds of millions of people out of poverty.

Which is not to say that income inequality in this country has not increased significantly- it has.

But worldwide it's a very different story.

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/mar/17/aid-trade-reduce-acute-poverty

http://www.unicef.org/media/media_73447.html

GENEVA/NEW YORK, 8 May 2014 – Since 1990, almost 2 billion people globally have gained access to improved sanitation, and 2.3 billion have gained access to drinking-water from improved sources. Some 1.6 billion of these people have piped water connections in their homes or compounds, according to a new report from UNICEF and the World Health Organization, entitled Progress on drinking water and sanitation: 2014 Update, which also highlights a narrowing disparity in access to cleaner water and better sanitation between rural and urban areas.

[De Leonist]

48. I'm aware of that as well.

I know that in many places around the world you are seeing a Middle Class starting to rise and because of that poverty is not what it used to be. But still as far as I'm aware more people still live in poverty than don't. Though perhaps my knowledge of just how great the difference compared to now vs 20 yrs ago is not as accurate as I assume.

[Warren DeMontague]

49. I think people confuse the story domestically with what has been going on globally.

Globally, there's been some good news, although I certainly wouldn't be one to try to claim it's all sunshine and roses.

Domestically, not so much.

[Skidmore]

46. We need to eliminate this "culture of meanness."

Peter Yarrow referred to our nation and world in these terms this past weekend at a concert I attended. He was so spot on. It starts with the way we address one another daily to the way we consume entertainment to the way we acquire the things in our lives. Greed is mean and so is the notion that the needs of the one are paramount.