Are you an enabler of hate?

[William769]

Think about that for a moment.

What do you do if you hear a homophobic joke? A homophobic slur? A racist joke? A racist slur? A misogynist joke? A misogynist slur? (or even a joke or slur against women in general (from someone you know & trust)? There are many more that can be listed here, but these three seem to be the main one's, but you can apply them to all.

If you say nothing for whatever reasons, or go with the flow not to cause any waves, you enable Gay bashing, supremacist, rapists, women beaters & so on. If you stand up against one but not the others, you enable all.

There are no excuses as to why one would keep quiet on any instance of hate unless of course deep down you in one way or another agree with what was said.

Silence equals death, it happens everyday that people die are discriminated against beaten, raped, made to feel useless for no other reason than ignorance & bigotry. I learned this first hand very recently.

In closing I will leave you with this you are either part of the solution or part of the problem, there is no middle ground.

Go in peace.

[sheshe2]

1. How I would handle it, I am not sure.

Yet I would not stand in silence.

William~

[catbyte]

2. When I was younger, I was more meek for some reason, After I hit 40, I don't

hesitate to say something. It has caused a little trouble, but folks are hesitant to attack a 50 year old, 5'1" Ojibwe woman, LOL

[JaneyVee]

3. I always speak up.

Your silence is your consent.

[Demeter]

4. Enabler? Or knowing which fights to pick?

?w=300&h=254

[alp227]

69. see reply 5 nt

[etherealtruth]

5. Keeping quiet implies agreement and emboldens the idiots

Silence normalizes the words and actions and allows them to be (or remain) deeply entrenched in the culture.

You have written a wonderful post ... I hope we all read it and reflect on our own actions

[Supersedeas]

80. +1

[MrScorpio]

6. You know what's funny? I never hear that shit from people I know...

Sure my sphere has constricted to no more than family and a few select friends these days, but it's that way by design.

My biggest problem has been with strangers on the net who I've seen say racist, sexist, misogynistic and homophobic shit… and they all get both barrels.

[Supersedeas]

81. confronting strangers is sometimes a obligation

[Scuba]

7. ...

[William769]

12. ...

[pipi_k]

8. Speaking up against something

doesn't do a damned thing about changing it.

It doesn't change the mind of the person who told the joke/made the statement/etc.

All it does do is let the person know not to speak that way in your presence.

Honestly...does anyone here actually believe that world change happens because s/he told off some old dude spouting nasty things in McDonalds???

Or even here, at DU...

I can't even count how many times I've seen people post things that are distasteful at best, and they get called out by others, but their opinions don't change.

Yeah...good luck with that trying to change the world by telling people off bullshit.

[William769]

11. I just spent a week and a half in the hospital for standing up to hate.

Yes it makes a difference.

I stand for what I believe in, if more people did, yes it would make a difference.

Like I said you are either part of the problem or part of the solution. I know where I stand.

[Luminous Animal]

25. Oh no! I did not know that. So sorry, William.

[William769]

29. Thanks.

I have always stood up for whats right and will continue to do so. It's just my nature to make this world a better place to live in.

[pipi_k]

26. You know where you stand...

good for you.

I don't plan on spending any time in the hospital for "speaking up against hate".

You don't have the right to draw any lines for anyone else as to what they should be able to endure for "standing up to hate".

Also...one thing I want to point out.

You probably also don't have the right to tell people in any particular group what they should or should not be saying to each other.


Example...Let's say you work for a black boss. He and a very close friend, also black, are having lunch and you overhear them using the "N" word to each other in a kidding manner. You mean to tell me that you, a white guy, walk over to them and give them a lecture on what they should not be saying? Seriously?

I don't expect an honest answer to this, as I know how easy it is to sit there, insisting that, oh yeah, we WOULD do this or that.

Give these two a lecture, and the least that may happen is your boss can make your workplace life somewhat miserable. Or he could find an excuse to fire you. If you have a family, what do you tell them...uh, sorry, kids...dad lost his job, we have to sell the house and maybe get welfare and food stamps because the economy sucks, but hey... I stood up to my boss today (even though I didn't change his mind). Ooooh...brilliant!!

Don't say anything, and you could rightfully be accused of hypocrisy.


I've been around long enough to know that you don't change a person's hatred by telling him it's wrong.

In fact, what's more likely to happen is that it will only reinforce his attitude.


anyway...you don't get to tell other people what privations or punishment they should be willing to endure based on your experience.

If you'd be willing to die for your beliefs, do you think others should follow your example too?

Screw that shit.

[theHandpuppet]

27. Wow

So let me get this straight. You give all your examples of why folks shouldn't speak out even as you tear William a new one. Got it.

[boston bean]

45. The speaking out and against is obviously much much worse

than the bigoted speech. That's my take anyhow.

[pipi_k]

56. Yeah, I tear

William a new one because he's trying to impose his own standards on others.

He's willing to be hospitalized, so he says, in order to save the world. And anyone else who isn't as willing is "part of the problem".

I'm sorry, but that just stinks.


And it stinks when people crawl out of the woodwork here to show everyone how much holier-than-thou they are than the rest of us.


OK, so he ended up in the hospital, allegedly because he "spoke out against hatred". How did that work out, I wonder...

I'd be willing to bet that whoever put him there is STILL thinking and acting in the same manner as he was before some random guy tried to "educate" him.

Did the guy go and visit him? Did he show up with flowers, apologizing for his actions, and vowing that his mind had been changed?

uh, yeah.

right


Huge change in the world, there.

[sheshe2]

65. Wow!

I nominate you for the most insensitive post of the year!

Yeah, I tear

William a new one because he's trying to impose his own standards on others.

Standing up for someones rights according to you, is William trying to impose his standards on others?!? You do not believe in standing up and defending someone that is abused? Are you serious? You have never stood for someone you love or respect? What is it with you!? I would prefer William standing and taking my back than the likes of you stabbing me in the back. Or just casually standing by the wayside saying nothing.

Your compassion is so noted!

[alp227]

70. Could it be that a person is "holier than thou" because they're RIGHT?

I think too many people in modern society don't want to acknowledge they could be wrong on an issue, if I may be the devil's advocate.

[theHandpuppet]

77. If you intend to lead by example...

I know whose example I'd follow, and it wouldn't be yours.

[AverageJoe90]

88. I honestly think that's being a little too harsh on him.

I don't think that was his intention at all. With that said, though, we certainly do, sadly, have a problem with people acting all holier-than-thou(for example, "you're not as educated as I am and you don't understand racism because you disagree with literal 'white privilege'.", etc.) and being unwilling to get off their high horse, as it were, even if that may not be intentional.

[William769]

28. no surprise there.

Have a nice day.

[pipi_k]

57. Yeah, I didn't expect

any answers to my questions, but I figured I'd give it a try anyway.

whatever.

[Eleanors38]

67. Pristine banalty.

[Cha]

63. Oh, William..

I'm so sorry. I hope you're healing well.

[el_bryanto]

9. It depends on the situation and the person speaking

It's easy enough on the internet or with random people because you aren't going to see those people again - but if it's someone you work with or someone you are going to see regularly, particularly if its someone you care about - you have to figure out the best way to deal with it.

Bryant

[William769]

10. That my friend is being part of the problem.

No excuses. There is only one way to get rid of hate.

[el_bryanto]

14. What is the goal of the conversation with a person who says something offensive?

Or what is the purpose of it?

Is it to get them to see the world differently and change their ways? Or is it something else?

Bryant

[William769]

15. What would be your goal?

I fail to see the problem with what I said. I do pause thought when I get a response like this and I will leave it at that.

[el_bryanto]

20. May I ask why you pause ?

Is it more because you are curious why I think that way? Or because you are surprised to see an enabler of hate at DU?

At any rate like I said there are a variety of cases in which you might here a racists slur (or any of the other slurs you mentioned) - if you are present where it's directed to a person than you have a responsibility to stand up and say that's not acceptable - you need to protect the wounded party - i.e. the person towards whom the slur or joke was aimed at.

If on the other hand it's a conversation between you and a person without it being aimed at someone directly but just in general - as in most racist jokes for example than you decide what the best approach it is. If the person you are talking to is an asshole than you should say whatever you think is best - but if you are talking to someone who is a friend or a family member you generally think of as a good person than you decide what approach is best. Because the goal should be to turn your friend (someone who presumably you think has many good qualities) from a someone who says those racist things without thinking to someone who is a bit more aware of what they are saying and what kind of world we live in. And in that case you figure out the best approach and go from there. And the best approach might not always be the confrontational one.

Bryant

[FrodosPet]

33. Thank you!

There will never be peace on Earth until there is peace in our hearts and peace in our homes.

[Fairgo]

35. Response is required in community

Well said Bryant! Return hate for hate is not the only possible response, indeed it is the least productive. We must respond, but best to respond with kindness. It is often the more difficult path, but that is mostly a reflection of our own grasp on agape. Puzzling out a better response causes us to tend our own gardens as we try to help the neighbor weed hers.

[greatauntoftriplets]

13. I have a friend who used to send me crap anti-immigrant "joke" emails.

Known her since grade school (i.e., a long time!) and she's just not very bright...child-like in many ways by choice.

I responded that I didn't find them at all funny, that we are all descended from immigrants and even disproved her via Snopes a couple of times. She no longer sends that garbage to me.

[William769]

16. Good on you.

Tearing down that wall of bigotry & ignorance one brick at a time.

[greatauntoftriplets]

17. I don't know that she's changed her views...

But at least she now knows that I don't appreciate that garbage.

[pipi_k]

30. Oh bullshit

Nobody's tearing down any stinking wall of bigotry and ignorance.

All that's happening is the person sending the emails no longer sends them to one person.


Years ago I received in the mail some disgusting hate literature. Where these people got my name, I have no idea. I sent it back to them with a message telling them what I thought of it and to NEVER send me any more of their garbage ever again. They never did. But I'm not naive enough to believe that I changed anyone's attitude, or did away with even a smidgen of hatred in the world.

They took me off their mailing list, and likely added five more names instead...people who welcomed their crap.

[Whisp]

37. You just don't get it, do you?

It's called learning and educating - passing on better ways to others around you and to the next generation by speaking out - so they too will speak out. And more will because of them.

We are here to make a better world for the next batch, not to compost and stagnate in the same old historical bigotry and hate and fold our hands with a sigh of helplessness.

[boston bean]

46. With that persons thinking, they might have been against fighting the civil war.

I mean, there were some people speaking out and fighting for the right thing. I'm glad they did too.

How the hell is anyone suppose to effect any change by keeping their mouths shut?

It's an ignorant way of thinking, if you ask me.

[pipi_k]

53. You just made my point

Most meaningful change isn't made with just words.

It's made with blood and guts and pain and suffering.

The Civil War wasn't fought over a game of chess.

School desegregation didn't happen at a peaceful little picnic.


Women didn't win the right to vote by shaking their fingers and admonishing Society, threatening to stop making chicken soup.


I don't like violence, but I have a lot more respect for people who resort to it in the end to gain what they want than I do for people who think they're going to change the world by telling someone else he's a bad bad boy for saying and thinking naughty things.



Save the world by teaching the younger generations, if that's your wish. You'll have better results that way.

[boston bean]

59. Certainly seemed like William suffered.

I guess you just made my point and yours is way off the mark.

[pipi_k]

51. No...you don't get it

The only people you're going to influence in any meaningful way are children.

Way before they've become brainwashed by ignorance and hatred.


You start it with the kids.

Not adults who have already formed their opinions, and who aren't going to give two rat's asses what you say about their racist or sexist "joke".

Educate. The. Children.


Oh, and I've seen the kind of "education" many people here think is appropriate for "changing the world".

Forcing business owners to change their TV channels because they don't think anyone else should be watching certain news channels.

Snarking off to old people in McDonalds who are spouting off distasteful things.


You're not going to change the world by telling some goofball that his nasty homophobic joke is wrong.

[Whisp]

58. That is not true!

Sure starting with kids is the ideal but I've had some pretty good results with some die hard oldies but snarking off isn't the way to do it.

forgetaboutit.

[alp227]

72. So you're saying telling others they're wrong is...ineffective?

That's a strawman you're grasping at, it seems. It's not a matter of changing the world as much as stopping ignorance.

And "Forcing business owners to change their TV channels because they don't think anyone else should be watching certain news channels"? People who insist on watching Fox News can just watch those news channels online or at home then. #FirstWorldProblems

[Cha]

64. Thank you, Whisp~

[boston bean]

48. wow, you really seem quite invested in not speaking out against bigotry.

Don't know why, but it's weird.

[pipi_k]

50. And you seem

really quite invested in reading your own meaning into the point I was trying to make.

I could probably sit here for the next year trying to explain it, but unfortunately, lots of people are going to believe what they want to believe because it makes them feel superior.

[boston bean]

60. Believe me, no need to explain any further.

I've understood you perfectly.

[theHandpuppet]

78. What? Your yelling at people here hasn't changed their minds?

"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
Martin Luther King, Jr.

But don't take his word for it. He was just trying to impose his values on others. As you said, "Speaking up against something doesn't do a damned thing about changing it."

[alp227]

71. Forward them to this blog

http://myrightwingdad.blogspot.com/

[greatauntoftriplets]

82. I'll keep in mind.

Sad thing is, she won't know who most of the people mentioned there are so it'd likely be lost on her.

[Throd]

18. How about not getting your ass kicked?

I used to live in a community where that could happen for speaking up.

[William769]

19. Sometimes you have to break some eggs to make a cake.

FWIW, it can happen in any community. No one is immune to it.

[Throd]

21. Getting your ass kicked by a bigot doesn't help anything.

[McCamy Taylor]

23. Shame them with humor. It's been working for me for over 50 years.

[McCamy Taylor]

22. Context counts. The same joke told by a gay guy may not be homophobic.

Same as a woman calling her best friend "You bitch!" can be a playful joke, whereas if a guy says it, she may kick him in the balls.

[struggle4progress]

24. The last time I heard a racist joke, everybody ignored it and keep on talking about whatever

we had been talking about before. And that actually embarrassed the hell out of the would-be humorist

[Shandris]

31. There -is- a middle ground.

And most people live in it. It starts by recognizing that what gets bandied about as 'hate' a lot of times...isn't. It may be a decision or life direction we disagree with, it may be religious faith we think is silly, outdated, or even stupid, it may be a simple lack of knowledge/information/experience...it may well be a lot of things, but that doesn't make it hate.

Pick you actual battles first and you'll be doing more to end hate than all the confrontational arguments in the nation every single year. There's your middle ground.

Then when you -do- encounter actual hate, try to find a method of engagement that doesn't generate -more- hate. Violence, or 'breaking a few eggs', isn't usually how its done either. To witness this in action, go ask a lifelong Southerner who isn't politically active what they think of the Civil War and how the North handled the end of it. See how well violence 'solved' that hate. It didn't...it 'reunited' the nation and nothing more; only time, temperance, and tolerance have counteracted the actual hate there (and even then, there are substantial pockets of true hate to be found there). At some point you also have to realize that there are some aspects of hate you will simple -never- get rid of. You can't fight a war against an emotion.

[Inkfreak]

32. No I don't.

But this OP seems to be more about you than me. You've drawn a line in the sand and that's to be commended. I also don't tolerate hate around me. But I cannot/will not engage everytime. Circumstances will not allow it.

Those in my circle of family/friends will know I do not abide hate. The random asswipe at a bar (or wherever) can figure it out for himself..or not. Which is the case for many people as it is the way of the world. I will lead by example with those in my sphere of influence.

[H2O Man]

34. no

[Whisp]

36. I speak up, sometimes I see the light bulb go on

and some genuine thought and understanding blooms like a flower, other times I get yelled at or lose 'friends'. Who needs friends like that tho. As long as a few light bulbs turn on, I'm okay with the collateral damage.

[herding cats]

38. In the real world I always say I'm offended.

On the internet I usually stop following the person, or an equivalent to that end. I tend to not argue with haters on the internet because they are a vile sort not receptive to reason. Now I'm wondering if that's the correct course of action.

[Comrade Grumpy]

39. People who say if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem...

...are part of the problem.

[Texasgal]

40. Very disturbed about some of the comments in this thread.

[William769]

41. You and me both.

Makes one wonder.

But I refuse to rise to the bait, I let them speak for themselves.

[Texasgal]

42. I agree. I will not alert or make a stink

I'd like them to stay so that we can all see them for ourselves.

UGH!

[el_bryanto]

54. On what grounds would you alert them - assuming you felt there were grounds to alert? nt

[Cha]

43. Hi William, nice to see you..

I know if I ever heard anything like that or read it I would respond.

I am an enabler of Love~

[William769]

44. I know you would.

Just goes to show that you are a good person and one to count on to have your back.

Good to see you also.

[Cha]

49. Hey..

P.S. I got back on! DU has been really strange for me the last couple of days. It won't respond and then finally it comes on and I get to post a thing or two and then it freezes up again.

So if you don't see me around that's why. The rest of my laptop works great.. just DU I'm having major problems with. I'm taking it to my local com doc next week. Wish it Luck!

[oneofthe99]

47. I would never hear a racist or homophobic joke

No one I associate with would ever tell a joke like that

[sheshe2]

52. Oh William...

I saw your post just as I was leaving for work, William.

So very glad to see you again. I have missed you and knew something was wrong.

You stood up for what you believe in, equality and respect for all. It breaks my heart that you were hurt for doing so. We will not sit down and we will not shut up. This world needs more love and humanity~

Obviously some here don't see that. I find that sad.



You are a good person William~

[William769]

55. Well with friends like you & some others here, How could I not be.

We will make the changes that need to be made despite those who stand in our way. They will go kicking & screaming but they will go. We not only have right on our side but we have hope. That's something I never give up on (no matter how many naysayers there are).

"Haters never win. I just think that's true about life, because negative energy always costs in the end."
Tom Hiddleston

[pipi_k]

61. If you really want to make a difference...

why don't you give up trying to influence grown adults (I'm assuming it was an adult who beat you up) and educate the children.

THAT is where the change is going to happen.


Why the hell do you think there are all these anti-bullying programs in the schools?

Because you have to teach people while their minds are still malleable...not after they've had years and years and years to live with fear and hatred.


I don't oppose your mission, I really don't.

What I do find offensive is the way you're trying to make anyone who doesn't follow your (misguided, IMO) example into some sort of social misfit. That is (again, IMO) obnoxious and smug.


Don't bother with adults.

Teach the children.

[alp227]

73. do you not believe in polite society?

Regarding: "What I do find offensive is the way you're trying to make anyone who doesn't follow your (misguided, IMO) example into some sort of social misfit. That is (again, IMO) obnoxious and smug."

I believe in holding bigotry and any belief that's on the "wrong side of history" in check any way I can. People have got to be informed of the consequences of their prejudices.

[Cha]

66. ..

William is so brave and caring and no doubt would do again, she.

[Cha]

62. ..

[flvegan]

68. Really?

All or nothing, huh?

I'm going to seriously hold back, considering. Please don't shame people like this. Nobody is perfect.

I don't think you know what "Go in peace" really means. I don't know what your "very recent" experience is, but it maybe shouldn't stand to cast doubt on folks trying to do right.

[Skittles]

74. aw believe me, I am not an enabler

I KICK ASS

[nomorenomore08]

75. Sorry you got hurt. You're probably braver than most of us. n/t

[Squinch]

76. Glad you are well William.

There is a lot of talk here about, "what good does it do?"

It ALWAYS does good. You might not change the mind of the asshole speaking. Likely you won't. But you very well may change the habits of the people listening, add to their stable of arguments, and increase the pool of people who can effectively shut down such a conversation.

Those conversations increase bigotry. They become a part of the culture and they allow people to think that kind of activity is acceptable in the wider world. Stopping the conversation does have an effect.

[chervilant]

79. I will share a personal anecdote with you:

My boss self-identifies as a racist and a homophobe. The first time I heard something racist come out of his mouth was after I observed that I do not understand why people default to hate and bigotry when stressed or angry. I have made my position clear insofar as I can without losing my job.

While he hasn't stopped spouting his bigotry, he now has a defensive edge to his utterances. I suspect my opposition has -- at the very least -- caused him some discomfort.

In my old age (58), I've learned that many of my generation hold racist and/or homophobic opinions. On occasion, I find myself being anti-racist with a friend whose racism was not apparent before. In short, I am anti-racist and anti-homophobic on a daily basis -- which is about how often I encounter bigotry and hate in this rural enclave.

[MannyGoldstein]

83. It's so easy to walk past

[Supersedeas]

84. Thinking of Michael Jordan's revelation that there was a time

when he hated all white people...and wondering whether there are certain people in certain communities who carry a hate which for a certain period of time this feeling of hate toward another group is justified.

[99Forever]

85. I'll pick my own battles...

... thank you very much, "William769."

If that "lowers" the opinion of some a bunch of self-righteous net "crusaders" have of me, well...

... so be it, I real don't give a flying fuck.

[William769]

86. Not a problem. Some people can't pick their own battles.

Glad to know where you stand.

[99Forever]

89. No, William 769...

... you quite clearly have no freakin' idea of "where I stand."

But if you want to pretend to, that's your option.

Don't mean squat to me.

[AverageJoe90]

87. I empathize with your POV, though I disagree slightly.

As dedicated as I have been, intellectually, to the cause of opposition to racism and supporting the creation of a better world, I realize that not everything is black-and-white(no pun intended)in this regard; just because you're not part of the problem doesn't necessarily make you part of the solution, and vice versa. There is a middle ground, to be truthful, and that's were many stand. And I see it as our job to get as many people as possible to step towards our side of the fence.