General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums"Lets work together to end racism" is more constructive than "whites need to check their privilege".
Just like "lets work together to reduce rape and sexual assault" is more productive than "all men are potential rapists" and "all men benefit from rape".
Just my humble opinion.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"Let's watch out for one another" is a much less offensive sign at the swimming pool than "All swimmers-- please be careful and aware"
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)deal with the problem. Whether societal ism or culture.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)is where AA's make amends to white people for making them feel bad.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)the horror! They can feel your pain, already have, so STFU.
Whisp
(24,096 posts)Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)Oh wait. That's held at a different time than the AA meetings.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)White people
gollygee
(22,336 posts)This thread ended up being full of so much win.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)Tim Wise.
ismnotwasm
(41,980 posts)Response to uppityperson (Reply #2)
Name removed Message auto-removed
redqueen
(115,103 posts)and men's opinions should be prioritized in discussions about feminism.
Because if their egos aren't coddled, they won't be our allies. And really, an ally who prioritizes their ego over social justice is surely the best kind of ally you could hope for, so this information is vitally important.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)can you have no self-interest and be engaged politically?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Fed up with that silly argument here.
Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)But, I know, engaging in conversation with "anyone" (ANY) who completely lacks any (ANY) self-interest can be self-defeating.
Feel free to stew, simmer, and feed upon the arguments you would rather wish to ignore...ha-ha.
alp227
(32,025 posts)Because Jared Taylor (of American Renaissance I think) makes the argument that white Americans have their own "racial interests", in the same fashion as groups like NAACP and NCLR.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)But yeah, throw storm front into the conversation if you must. Please proceed!
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Oh wait, that stupid strawman has been debunked constantly.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)so pardon me if I can't take any of this 'confusion' about the issue as if it were sincere.
Anyone whining about their feelings, or feigning confusion about what privilege means, or any of that nonsense... sorry, no sale.
badtoworse
(5,957 posts)The real problem is that unless white males take full ownership of both problems and deliver the expected mea culpas, that's what they get. That's about where the reasonable discussion ends.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)for acknowledging their privilege....
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)badtoworse
(5,957 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)individual level. But systemic racism, as practiced from the very beginning of this country's history, really can't be seen as anything but a "creation" of white people, even if nonwhite people have often been used in various ways to prop it up.
I'm not saying that either of us is to blame, individually - we had no choice in being born into a racist society. But American racism, as understood on a broad, mass level - leaving personal prejudices aside for the moment - has always been primarily, if not exclusively, "practiced" by whites against nonwhites. Irish and Italian immigrants, for instance, were treated badly at first because they weren't considered white.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Of course, they could be doing it all wrong.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)cyberswede
(26,117 posts)Squinch
(50,949 posts)Suddenly, I totally understand why we shouldn't be allowed to point out the existence of white and/or male privilege!
It's their distance from the problems of racism and sexism that gives them their clear-eyed perspective. We women and minorities are just too close to the issue to see things clearly.
You always teach me things!
(This is kind of fun. )
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)name not needed
(11,660 posts)Squinch
(50,949 posts)Tell me, then. How do women and people of color feel about things?
And PS. Your post is really scraping for a reason to pick an argument. It doesn't even follow from what I said.
But carry on. You seem to have a script that you need to put into all threads. Far be it from me to stop you.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I'm sure it doesn't to him.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)I was going to have some thoughts today, but i said to myself, nah, i better run them by this dude on the internet before i make a fool of myself.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)Makes me so pleased that i have found this fount o' knowledge.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)to believe we are accusing them of being racist MRA types. Even though our conversations have nothing to do with them!
They feel bad, and it's all our fault! Because of silly opinions we have about our experiences!
I feel so guilty about the pain I have caused them!
I think I might faint from the shame. Catch me!
bravenak
(34,648 posts)You forgot to focus on the most important thing. Their fee fees.
Response to Squinch (Reply #144)
AverageJoe90 This message was self-deleted by its author.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)Your personal experience as a white male doesn't give you greater insight into racism than the collective opinion of the people of color on DU, even though you think it does. The fact that you do is more than a little troubling.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)I forgot what he said now.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)or so he claims ....
he had to self-delete in response to an ignored post? Fascinating.
I must have really amazing powers.
Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)It's like back when people were defending bullying and saying nothing could be done. Or entire threads questioning the existence of rape culture. This site isn't the most progressive place around, but eventually more people will catch on. In the mean time we will be enjoying many more lectures from those who seemingly resent being dragged toward progress.
redgreenandblue
(2,088 posts)But just in case you are interested in alliances, "you are a potential rapist" is probably not the best approach.
At the end of the day, what matters is which goal one is trying to achieve and which strategy one chooses to achieve the goal. Strategies that are heavy on collateral damage always bear the risk of back-firing.
Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)used to approach one another
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)If a white person or a male doesn't recognize the potential for racism or sexism in himself/herself, than it might well be difficult to effectively work together to end racism.
Bryant
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)I know there are times in my life when I've acted on racist and sexist assumptions. If I had not reflected on that in myself, I would continue to perpetuate injustice.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)for you to be able to overcome your racist assumptions?
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)Ms. Toad
(34,072 posts)then yes. I have not had anyone use those specific words in speaking with me - but I have been challenged when I was unconsciously doing thing that came from a place of white or cis privilege - and my little journey into having a fragile body was a very effective teaching tool about how much privilege I was completely unaware came with having an able body. Because I am committed to leveling the playing field, when someone living in a less privileged skin makes me aware that I am getting away with things only because of the skin I live in, I try to listen, learn, and change.
That is actually kind of the point. Gathering around the campfire singing Kumbaya with other people of good will doesn't help those people who really want to end racism understand that they may also need to change their own behavior. "Check your privilege" is a reminder to think about it- typically connected with something where privilege played a role so there is an opportunity for some immediate self-examination.
Am I thrilled when I get called on it - no. But I am nearly always grateful that someone was willing to risk offending me.
wryter2000
(46,045 posts)I appreciate it because I don't want to continue saying or doing insensitive things. Privilege is what it is because it's largely unconscious. The way to get rid of it is through education.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Oh yeah, they are entitled to be taken seriously, even when they are spitballing it. I forgot their birthright.
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)It has never occurred to me to sit around and complain that people of color aren't being nice enough to me for me to reflect on the ways in which racism influences me and society more broadly. I've studied history. I know that the institution of slavery permeated the structures of our country dating back to the 16th century Virginia colony. I know that racism has and continues to influence all aspects of our society, from the legal system to education and media images about how we view one another (as BTW does sexism). I have never seen anything objectionable about understanding my own privilege as a white person. Because I see racism as something incumbent upon me to challenge, that means I need to examine it within myself. Understanding privilege is a part of that, though it is only a starting point. If I were to insist that I played no part in racism and that it was all the fault of someone else, I would only be contributing to its perpetration. I choose another approach. I try to listen to how people of color experience racism, and in turn reflect on my own thoughts and behavior to do my best to avoid such actions.
Every time you post about how people shouldn't talk about white privilege, you announce loudly that you see your own sensitivities as more important than experiences of racial oppression faced by people of color. I don't view myself that way. When I don't recognize something as offensive toward a subaltern group (as has occurred somewhat recently in matters involving homophobia and antisemitism), I seek to understand what that act or statement means to the person offended.
I know, for example, that as a straight person that should I ever choose to marry again, I face no legal impediment to doing so. I know I can engage in mild public displays of affection without attracting potentially dangerous attention. That is my privilege as a straight person. I also know that I am not pulled over for driving unless I actually commit a violation. I know I can go into a department store and browse without being constantly followed. Those are some of my privileges as a white person. Other straight and white people enjoy those same privileges. The injustice is that people of color and LGBT Americans do not benefit from those same liberties, not that someone points out my own fortune. Why should that bother me? I can't imagine why it bothers anyone, and I certainly can't imagine why people think not speaking of their privilege is what needs to be discussed rather than racism itself. As JustAnotherGen pointed out, why does she need to "work with you" to end racism? Why should she and others have to convince you to stand up for injustice? And why do you think your own ego a more important topic of discussion that their lived experiences of racism?
kwassa
(23,340 posts)that you see your own sensitivities as more important than experiences of racial oppression faced by people of color."
The bottom line.
Why don't some white progressives understand that?
laundry_queen
(8,646 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)Obviously we're not there yet.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)Squinch
(50,949 posts)When I have done things through ignorance which could be perceived as racist, I have always been grateful to be informed of that fact.
Though it seems that some people would rather persist in assholery than be informed that they are making a mistake.
wryter2000
(46,045 posts)I wish I could rec your post.
Ms. Toad
(34,072 posts)and add cis-gender, heterosexual, able bodied, neurotypical - and lots more that aren't right on the top of my mind.
Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)white people and men....other races have just as much potential for racism and sexism, nol?
uponit7771
(90,339 posts)... very hard to "work together" if some of the issues on what keeps people apart aren't recognized.
My Name alone keeps me from getting jobs
Black name resume study - http://www.cbsnews.com/news/black-names-a-resume-burden/
Legal brief black \ white study - http://newsone.com/3006968/nextions-study-racism-black-white-writers/
... and YES
There are PLENTY of people who will not recognize the depth of racism and its harm even if they recognize the existance...
for MOST it has to rise to the level of Clive Bundy or Shelden whatever his last name is to be of an issue
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)I've been having the devil of a time finding a job, and multiple people have suggested a part of it is probably my last name. And just a day or two back, in another thread, someone posted a link showing that some loony stormfront racist type is out there going by 'Erik Bloodaxe', which means that people who might do a websearch on me might be conflating me with that ass.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)we should all be for.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Does it make sense to piss them off?
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)And have been trending Republican for a while. Particularly white men.
While you're worried about offending the delicate sensibilities of white people, the white-black and white-Latino wealth gaps have increased since the Great Recession. Not to mention the racism of the criminal justice system, or police methods in general. Not to mention (often subtle) discrimination in employment and housing (this is illegal, but it still goes on, of course). Not to mention the persistence of black poverty, and the sneering of white right-wingers at the "culture of the inner cities." Not to mention....you get the idea.
Whites continue to benefit from racism, whether they like it or not. But judging from the attitudes of many whites-even those on a progressive website like this one-I'm beginning to think that much of white America wants to keep the benefits of racism, without experiencing any guilt over it. Peace of mind, don't ya know.
Louisiana1976
(3,962 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Not a majority of white people. But tens of millions. They made up about one-third of the overall electorate.
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)because they're pissed that the term "white privilege" is used?
The Second Stone
(2,900 posts)Republican. The "check your white privilege" catch-phrase that is going around seems to me to have been invented by our enemies to divide us. Don't assume that just because I fit a preconceived idea of a racist Republican that I am one. This fight is being cooked up by our enemies.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)There's a little privilege showing there.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)Although I doubt a bunch of people arguing about "white privilege" on a discussion board is going to have much of an impact on anything.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)cyberswede
(26,117 posts)Lex
(34,108 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)What if you didn't create the problem? bravenak and number23 and I have had side bars about this -
Why should three black women have to put in all the hard work when we aren't the ones in the dominant culture doing the damage? I think I'm the oldest of the trio at 41 - it's not like we made this mess. Why do we have to clean it up?
It kind of assigns the blame to us - and that's why that statement to me is not constructive.
Behind the Aegis
(53,957 posts)However, as a black woman, you have a vested interest in ending racism/sexism. Do you really want the perpetrators to be solely responsible for "fixing" the problem? I agree it is a burden, an unfair one to be sure. I agree the dominant cultures should shoulder more of the solution, but without input from the affected, it could become a bigger issue. As someone who is gay and Jewish, I don't want heterosexuals and non-Jews deciding for me what is homophobia/heterosexism and anti-Semitism. They can have their say, but they need to hear my voice too. As correct thinking as I can be on issues affecting the AA community, I am not one, I never will be, and no matter how many family members or friends I have in that community, I will never fully understand what it is to be AA in this world. So, I need to hear from AA.
I think some of this comes down to having to admit, some people will never get it.
JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)You get it - because of your life experience. At a certain point though - I have to drop the rope on trying to educate and just go on and do my thing and encourage others to do theirs. We have to let go or be dragged backwards time and again trying to explain to people their stupidity. Make sense?
Behind the Aegis
(53,957 posts)Time and time again, I have had to explain to some of the same posters the difference between "sexual orientation" and "sexual preference" and still it doesn't sink in! So, I cut my losses and move on, hoping someone who made the same error was reading and did learn something.
I was thinking about this last night in the shower (I do lots of thinking there), and I came to the conclusion that the reason some aren't getting it is because they are being defensive. So, I pondered as to why they were being defensive and came to this conclusion: for the first time, for many of them, they aren't in the majority (of opinion) for the first time in their lives and they feel attacked and the irony of it is exactly how many of us (depending on our minority status) have felt for years, sometimes our entire lives. Basically, the shoe is on the other foot and they don't like the fit.
bravenak
(34,648 posts)Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)Louisiana1976
(3,962 posts)Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)the privilege seems to be all encompassing
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)The problem isn't with "check your privilege", it's with the ridiculous strawmen erected to make the privileged feel they're being discriminated against.
Which only serves to make less privileged communities the bad guys.
Behind the Aegis
(53,957 posts)However, we aren't dealing with an "ideal" situation. I agree some people are nasty and accusatory, which doesn't help, but there are also those who fail to realize they have privilege and don't fully understand it. Class has been brought up as a way to negate white privilege, but it does no such thing. It is true the issue of classism also needs to be addressed and it, too, has it's share of privilege. One thing I have personally noticed is how people are willing to overlook little things because "they aren't a big deal." While those little things aren't the be all to end all, they do add up and they do contribute to the cultures of '-isms', and therefore, they too need to be addressed.
Racism ((hetero)sexism/gender bias/homophobia/classism/anti-Semitism/Islamophobia/regionalism/et.c) is much more than calling black people ((or other ethnicities)(women/transgender/GLB/poor(wealthy)/Jews/Muslims/various people based on their place of origin/etc.)) bad names or attributing to them stereotypes, be they positive or negative. The big issues need to addressed, and often are, it is the smaller issues which seem to get a "pass" or are treated as if they aren't one of the "-isms."
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)... and women aren't asking politley enough for equality ....?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Do you?
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)Although a black man, his obligations are to all the citizens of the country. He is not the "Black" president he is the U.S. president, and as the US President I appreciate what he says and generally how he says it.
For average Joe Citizen ... s/he has no obligation to not offend .... has no constituency to represent .... I would never presume to opine that a black man should seek what is rightfully his, without offending anyone.
I would never state that a woman should ask politley and wait for an equal seat at the table.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Ideally, more moderate voices, and more radical ones, serve to complement and reinforce each other.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Actually proved to be a stumbling block for the Civil Rights movement, at least, that is, before he rejected his anti-Caucasian bigotry and instead began to preach a message of tolerance and respect between the races. And yet, less than a year later, his life came to an all-too sudden end. Indeed, I find the circumstances all too strange to be mere happenstance......somebody in TPTB really did not like this man's turn towards moderation.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)important, but I have to wonder if the MLK approach would have been quite as effective without the "threat" of a more radical response. Dr. King, by almost any standard, was one of the truly great men of American history, but he didn't do it all on his own.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Dr. King, by almost any standard, was one of the truly great men of American history, but he didn't do it all on his own.
That's true. That is true.
M0rpheus
(885 posts)Traditionally, working together means that "they" dictate what is important for "us" (the minorities) to focus on, lest we ask for too much or ask the wrong way.
What does working together look like when you can't agree on the basics?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)I'm pretty sure that all DUers are on the same side here, regardless of their race or sex.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)B2G
(9,766 posts)There is no such thing as being "color blind"
It's a cutesy euphemism to discount the black experience and to position white people as the real victims of discrimination from things like affirmative action.
Revanchist
(1,375 posts)Revanchist
(1,375 posts)You need to see and acknowledge other's race/ethnicity and/or culture and treat them with respect and equality, not pretend that they are not who they are.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)That is, in the sense that was elaborated by the late Dr. King, that of placing good character above all else.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)He did not say people should be color blind in a world that very much is not.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Of course, he wanted people to continue to be aware of the realities of ethnic oppression, but he *still* hoped for a world in which people viewed character as the arbiter of one's worth, and not the color of their skin, and thru his words, he encouraged people to make that a reality. So in a way, yes, he did.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)He wished for a day when his children would not be judged due to the color of their skin, but people of color are very much still being judged by the color of their skin. He wanted changes to happen to make that non-judgement be a reality. He didn't want people to pretend that there was no privilege. Pretending privilege doesn't exist doesn't create a world without judgement.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)EOM.
gollygee
(22,336 posts)You never said you want changes. You want people to pretend there is no judgement and not recognize privilege, which is part of the job of deconstructing racism.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)It's kinda sad.....we were kinda starting to have a legitimate convo here.....and then you pulled the "you're a faker, you don't want a better society" card. What was the point in that?
You want people to pretend there is no judgement
That is simply not true.
and not recognize privilege, which is part of the job of deconstructing racism.
You can deconstruct racism without subscribing to "white privilege" theory.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)You might actually start to debate the issue. You have made no attempt in your many notes on the subject so far.
JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)He wished for a day when his children would not be judged due to the color of their skin, but people of color are very much still being judged by the color of their skin.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)You don't warrant being on my radar.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Ideally, yes, race shouldn't matter. But proponents of "color blindness" are living in an alternate post-racial reality and as a result don't acknowledge that race still is unfortunately a huge factor.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)or something.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)bettyellen
(47,209 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)kwassa
(23,340 posts)this misunderstanding of Martin Luther King goes on forever, unfortunately.
You are upset by the concept of white privilege. I'm sorry you are upset.
But that has nothing to do with whether or not white privilege exists.
Now, do you deny it exists, or are you simply upset by people saying that white privilege exists?
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)That day hasn't come yet.
B2G
(9,766 posts)This thread is a perfect example of my I don't discuss racism in here.
It's not enough to practice tolerance and treat all people as equals. We must self-flagellate while doing so.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)The concept being described here is simply not that difficult.
If you truly are not understanding it, it is because you are blocking it. It is because you simply don't want to understand it. So maybe you should start there: what is the threat to you in acknowledging that we white people benefit from being white in ways that our black friends do not benefit because they are black?
Why does a conversation that acknowledges that obvious fact present such a problem for you, and why should it have to be tailored to soften your discomfort about it?
Go back and read those posts that you just dismissed. You can learn something here.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)M0rpheus
(885 posts)However, when you get down into the details of everyday living, there is always an "us" and "them". In this case, it's those that benefit and those who do not.
Your frame puts equal responsibility on all for a solution, when that is not the case.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)I have been reminded too many times that they expect their concerns to be heard, and mine muted and deemed distatseful or divisive. Dudes forget women ARE the party. We make or break it.
I have become much more thoughtful about where and who I am willing to support and work for these days. It's my life, not a fucking sports game to bet on, as too many here treat it.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)ismnotwasm
(41,980 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)oh lord, I am laughing over here. What a week it has been on DU3.
I love that door, by the way.
ismnotwasm
(41,980 posts)I thought it apropos of the situation
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)BainsBane
(53,032 posts)Posting on issues white guys don't like to read about.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)BainsBane
(53,032 posts)How is telling people not to talk about white privilege any less flamebaity than mentioning white privilege? You are defining flamebait as viewpoints that differ from your own. Clearly many posters of color find this OP dismissive of their experiences and concerns, yet you proclaim it not flamebait as opposed to the opposite point of view. How can you not understand that you are not the universal arbiter of what is legitimate discussion vs. flamebait and that others may see things differently?
Here is the reality: women and people of color are the majority voters in the Democratic party, but time and time again we are told that issues that concern us are "divisive," not "political" and shouldn't be posted on this site, particularly in GD. We are supposed to conform our concerns to dictates of the demographic that votes for Democrats in the smallest numbers. Why do you think you and your sensibilities to be much more valid than those of voters of color?
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)By the way, I expressed an opinion, not a desire to be "the universal arbiter of what legitimate discussion is." I'll leave that to you.
BainsBane
(53,032 posts)An opinion would be: I prefer to avoid those discussions, or I am personally not interested. I pointed out that your view of flamebait is bound by your own experience and interests. Naturally you respond with snark and will continue to insist subjects you don't like to read, particularly when they express the views of feminists and people of color, constitute flamebait. Invoking that very term does assumes you are the universal arbiter of legitimate discussion since you declare the mention of white privilege to be "flamebait." I hear the same thing about feminist issues, violence against women, rape, etc... every time I post on them. The message is loud and clear: If I don't like your thread, that makes it flamebait and you a troll.
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)I have an opinion. I stated it.
These discussions inevitably evolve into a circular firing squad where people who probably agree on 90% of the issues waste their time insulting each other. I will try harder to stay out of these flame fests.
Supersedeas
(20,630 posts)BainsBane
(53,032 posts)People have turned it into a debate over whether or not Snowden and Greenwald as individuals are heroes or traitors, good or evil, while issues about the NSA and civil liberties vs. national security are ignored. I don't, however, march into those threads and declare the discussion illegitimate or flamebait. I sometimes have a look but more often pass by since the discussions are pretty much all the same, complete with the same absurd insults against other members as "authoritarian." I don't give a damn about Monica Lewinsky, and I am tired of seeing thread after thread about marijuana. However, I know that I am not the only person on the planet who matters and that other people find those topics worthwhile. The fact I am fed up with those discussions is neither interesting nor useful to those discussions, so why would I go in and tell people they shouldn't be talking about what they want to just because I don't like it?
You see, it's not all about you and what you want. Other people have other interests and the site allows us to post on those topics. Trash by keyword, use ignore, whatever. But when people insist on delegitimating discussions because THEY are fed up, it indicates they see the concerns and lives of themselves as superior to those of us who care about other issues. Talk about a demonstration of privilege and entitlement.
YoungDemCA
(5,714 posts)...than telling them that they're doing it all wrong, that they're not being "respectful" or "civil" enough, than being offended (or rather, pretending to be offended) by terms like "white privilege."
Sometimes, it's better to shut up and listen, particularly when you have not faced the adversities and obstacles that people from socially marginalized groups have faced.
Just my humble opinion.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)Squinch
(50,949 posts)uponit7771
(90,339 posts)Iggo
(47,552 posts)snooper2
(30,151 posts)Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)I don't give a rats.. K&R
Shandris
(3,447 posts)It's about 'winning' now, and political relevance. Make an unattainable goal, couch it in language guaranteed to make sure you never reach your goal, and be politically relevant forever. That way you don't run into the pesky problem of, you know, actually moving towards solving problems.
Whatever 'Social Justice' once meant, it isn't what it means now. It's just another counter-intuitive label that means something other than what it says, much like if a bill called the Jobs Creation Act was passed by Republicans -- you can bet that Job Creation had very little at all to do with it.
In before 6,000 posts with the tag. It's overdone, really.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)you huh? Not shocked to hear this.
Shandris
(3,447 posts)Or rather it might have been, if I had, you know, actually said what you accuse me of. But since I didn't, I'll just smile and nod and play along with you like I would a petulant child upset I won't let them go to the latest concert alone while accusing me of 'ruining their life'.
Now, don't you have some site somewhere else to go chitter about me or something? Or should I expect more visits from the 'oh look how not shocked I am!' crowd who likewise can't read?
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)will notice it?
Not sure WTF this post meant with the child at a concert? LOL. Sounds like you have your hands full with a brat and think that is somehow relevant here. It isn't. But at least it isn't dismissive of social justice as your previous post was.
Shandris
(3,447 posts)Challenge time, because I don't like people who think they can speak for me. Here is your challenge:
Below is the original post you responded to. Find for me where in this post is the direct quote (or, since I'll be generous, even something alluding to) "I never cared about social justice at all/I was never interested in social justice."
Otherwise, as Richard Pryor says, Have a Coke and a smile and...
Originally posted, in its entirety, non-edited, by Shandris:
It's about 'winning' now, and political relevance. Make an unattainable goal, couch it in language guaranteed to make sure you never reach your goal, and be politically relevant forever. That way you don't run into the pesky problem of, you know, actually moving towards solving problems.
Whatever 'Social Justice' once meant, it isn't what it means now. It's just another counter-intuitive label that means something other than what it says, much like if a bill called the Jobs Creation Act was passed by Republicans -- you can bet that Job Creation had very little at all to do with it.
In before 6,000 posts with the tag. It's overdone, really.
Your move.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)justice.
I'm sure you think giving the full post here frames that in a better light, but really- it does not.
Shandris
(3,447 posts)...along that lines. Well, that's neither my problem (nor is it a direct quote that shows I 'was never interested', despite your protestations to the contrary) nor my concern.
So, you can feel free to remain 'not shocked', and I'll continue to focus my energy on things that actually matter and maybe you'll either learn to read my posts or stop trying to twist my words around (and I'll leave it to the casual reader to determine which is the bigger problem). Have a nice day.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)towards the issue of social justice. Noted.
I'm sure you think giving the full post here frames that in a better light, but really- it does not.
Shandris
(3,447 posts)You frighten me with your 'notes' about as much as a cynical conspiracy theorist.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)Waiting For Everyman
(9,385 posts)People who make fighting against a particular thing their profession or niche, don't want to lose that position. Therefore their self-interest is in seeing the problem continue and never be solved.
What makes it clear to me that certain people don't want racism to improve, is the lack of any civility toward whites. They're told to shut up and butt out. Fine, then they're told that only whites can end racism because whites have the power. So which is it? Are whites needed, or not? If they are, then why is the nastiness no problem? If they aren't, then what's the holdup on ending racism? Why isn't it done yet?
It's clear that the participation of whites is needed, as MLK knew. Yet by the nasty treatment, it's clear that participation is being discouraged. It's a problem some want to talk about, and frequently, as long as it's only their pov allowed, but don't want improvement on. Just as you said.
Same with sexism.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)because they would like white people to listen (for the first time in many cases) , instead of talk down to them?
Expecting white people to listen and acknowlege and help sove the problem without dictating to POC is "nasty"? Get real.
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)Everybody could benefit from a bit more introspection.
peace13
(11,076 posts)By all means, don't ask the privileged to give an inch. The privileged with health insurance do not want others to have it. The privileged with food want to ridicule those who need assistance. Please direct the proper phraseology so we can get the heck on with things!
Too absolutely funny!
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)But I did not approach the issue from the standpoint of "privilege". I supported it because giving everyone access to health care is the right thing to do.
I think too often people want to inject "privilege" into issues when there is no need to.
peace13
(11,076 posts)IMO health care is all about privilege. If I have it and someone else gets it then I may have to wait longer for services. Why should someone who made 'poor choices' get the same care as I do. This thinking is why the process is taking so long.
There are a whole lot of privileges and privileged in this country but nothing that stacks up to the corporations. They will be the deciders!
Have a good one! Peace, Kim
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)I mean, I have it so much better in Cambodia because I'm white, or Zimbabwe, or North Korea, or ....Yeah, whatev.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)people will doubt me if I ever reference this here. Plus the collection of smilies is just icing on the opressed little cake you baked.
Puzzledtraveller
(5,937 posts)Wow, need a getaway? I give awesome foot rubs and am an excellent cook or I could just pay for a vacation getaway for you. Too awesome, thank you.
bettyellen
(47,209 posts)sad to say, really need a sarcasm tag. Because it really is that weird these days. If you had posted about how hard it is to be of short stature, or god forbid, have a female boss and how that is somehow a problem for DU to consider....... I would still not know you were joking. I have seen it all!
Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Enjoy your stay.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Though not in the way you probably intended.
cyberswede
(26,117 posts)after 2 whole days on DU?
...and let me guess...you're a long-time lurker who just signed up on Wednesday. Uh huh.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)How do you think it is working?
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)would be a better way to go? I can see that winning a few hearts and minds.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)If you wish to avoid the topic of white privilege, feel free to do so.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)Just on an anonymous internet discussion board.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)while you would like to avoid it everywhere, it seems.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)and yelling "I know more than you about oppression, let me tell things at you!!!11"
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)So a little bit of misquoting going on there.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Among many other things that might make you uncomfortable.
Also your "humble opinion" has been voice over and over and over again, and after your spirited pro-Zimmerman crusading, doesn't really need to be reiterated.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)How he addressed the Zimmerman situation, for example, I thought was pitch-perfect. Somehow he was able to be constructive without once using the phrase "white privilege".
Oh, and you must be confusing me with another DU regarding "spirited pro-Zimmerman crusading". (At least that is the most charitable explanation for this comment).
kwassa
(23,340 posts)I see why you like that approach. Anything else makes you uncomfortable.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)(P.S.; I think you and I probably can agree that George Zimmerman is a paranoid racist asshole who should have been convicted of murder.....as well as that Trayvon Martin was just a fella trying to walk home after getting some snacks at the store.)
La Lioness Priyanka
(53,866 posts)never seem to be offended by the notion of white privilege.
just like, men who want to end rape, dont seem to care about the wordings around how rape is framed. they do their bit to end rape.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)But if you want to changes the minds of the people who still don't actually believe it even exists, a nonconfrontational way of 'bringing them over' is probably going to work better than phrasing things in ways that make them instantly defensive.
So am I offended by the notion of white privilege? Not in the least. Do I benefit from it? Every day. But I came to understand it not because people went out of their way to be rude to me, but because they took the time to show me how it works in society without making it sound like they personally blamed me for its existence.
You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. So if you want to be more efficient about removing the blinders from more white people's eyes, then just maybe you might want to 'care' about framing and wording. Once they actually get it, they'll stop immediately going on the defensive when it's brought up.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)Last edited Sat May 10, 2014, 05:10 PM - Edit history (1)
Because "white privilege" or at least, the most literalist version of it, anyhow) has proven to be QUITE controversial even within progressive activist circles, let alone liberalism in general.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)You make sweeping claims that have no factual basis.
fredamae
(4,458 posts)and Bigotry afflict just about everyone.
I have been discriminated against as a woman.
I have been dismissed because I was a "single mom"
I have heard bigoted remarks made toward me.
I have been excluded.
I think we ought to not try and separate the issue of who is treated badly, but understand there are very few of us who have not been targeted for one reason or another...Let's stop with the destructive separation (it's intentionally instigated, imo)and get each others backs.
No matter the reason, no matter "the who"-it is all wrong and it's all very personal. It needs to stop. That much I do know.
whistler162
(11,155 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)kwassa
(23,340 posts)not surprising.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)since they choose not to couch their efforts against racism in terms of "white privilege"?
kwassa
(23,340 posts)That is the difference.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)I certainly don't recall ever doing that.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)to ending racism. Don't you understand the difference? Say someone weighs 400 pounds. Stating that telling this person they are fat is probably not the most constructive approach in encouraging them to lose weight is not at all the same thing as denying that they are fat.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)I haven't heard one from you, too.
You want to ban the subject from discussion.
PatrickforO
(14,574 posts)the essay called 'White Privilege' written by Peggy McIntosh back in the 1970s.
As a white male in my mid-fifties, I can readily acknowledge the discomfort some white people have with the 'white privilege' concept.
The problem is, as a white male, I really DO enjoy white privilege. What is it, you ask?
Well, whatever our color of skin or gender, we are all subject to human problems. Our feet hurt. We need to go shopping and don't feel like it. We are worried about being laid off. Our car needs new tires.
I worry about stuff like that the same way everyone else does. There are, however, some things I'll NEVER have to worry about:
- I will never have to worry about a clerk in a retail store following me around because he's afraid I'll steal something
- I will never have to worry about getting stopped out of the blue by cops and frisked because of my skin color
- I will never have to have the same conversations with my kids about cops that black parents have to have about the 'use of force continuum' - truth is I'd never even heard of that until I spoke to some people of color about how sick it was that Trayvon Martin went out to the store to get candy and never came back because a clown named Zimmerman decided he didn't belong there because he was black. The black parents I spoke with knew all about it and educated me.
- I will never have to worry about being subtly steered away from moving into a certain area, or not being offered good interest terms on a loan because of my color
- I will never have to worry about being ignored by car, appliance or electronics sales people because they don't think a black person would have the money to buy what they are selling
- If I get promoted at my job, I'll never have to worry about people believing that promotion was because of my skin color and that I'm nothing but a 'token.'
This is white privilege and it is very, very real, especially for white males. Maybe that's what is meant by 'whites need to check their privilege.' Maybe 'checking' their privilege means just being aware of it, and being empathetic to people of color who have to worry about all those things I've listed above and then some.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)It doesn't change my own POV re: "white privilege", but this is honestly one of the more intelligent and well-thought out replies I've seen on the subject in recent months. Kudos.
Skip Intro
(19,768 posts)morningfog
(18,115 posts)How exactly does an average male benefit from rapes of women?
You still don't understand your white privilege. It is not that you carry a "potential" for racism. It is that you benefit from your race and you refuse to acknowledge that. Of course, there is more to your problem, but that is beside the point.
Denying white privilege is a form of racism.
morningfog
(18,115 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)m-lekktor
(3,675 posts)like "getting votes' comes before what is RIGHT. pffffft. thankfully not all of us whitefolk are this DAMN clueless. this is the saddest thread on DU tonight. WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH
Squinch
(50,949 posts)it is always the same names doing the doubling down. They're disgusting, but predictable and finite in number.
Welcome. Don't let them run you off in horror. We need your voice here.
AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)like "getting votes' comes before what is RIGHT
And yet this is roughly what the literalist "white privilege" stuff has been about in 90% of cases: not truly about what's right, but oh-so-readily sucking up to a select few loud radicals so they can earn their extra brownie points(pats on the head, atta boy's, etc.), just as how mainstream Repubs in Congress have kissed the asses of the Teabaggers to keep their ideology credentials...(yes, I went there. Because it had to be said)....the RW may kowtow to their radicals, but we *shouldn't* be doing it ourselves; at the very least so we can get our acts together and beat the Pubbies down but also to emerge all the wiser and to actually learn from one another as a whole.
(P.S., yes, I do differentiate between those who fanatically push literalist versions of this theory, versus all the rest. Most of the latter are actually alright, TBH. The former are not a majority but they cause 95% of this site's problems in this regard.)
bravenak
(34,648 posts)JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)I just give this thread one of these-
And move back to my place.
JustAnotherGen
(31,823 posts)Side eye and shade throwing all at once!
kwassa
(23,340 posts)but this is a long running series ...
Eleanors38
(18,318 posts)ancianita
(36,055 posts)A more fierce commitment to honesty will be necessary.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)structure?
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)because it's universal and can't just be blamed on the Republicans like everything else.
Acknowledging white privilege means that I, too, by disengaging and claiming to "rise above" the issue with my "color blindness", am part of the problem and not the solution.
fishwax
(29,149 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)AverageJoe90
(10,745 posts)being posted out here, even occasionally on this site(this isn't a complaint about DU, btw). And I've seen it firsthand, too.