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Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
Sun May 4, 2014, 03:59 AM May 2014

Federal Court: The Police Can Stop and Search You for Behaving Innocently

A federal appeals court just ruled that the police have a legal right to stop, search and arrest you for innocent behavior including driving with your hands at the ten-and-two position on the steering wheel at 7:45 p.m., taking a scenic route and having acne.

To the Tenth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, these factors added up to fit the profile of a person smuggling undocumented immigrants and drugs. The court said, "Although the factors, in isolation, may be consistent with innocent travel ... taken together they may amount to reasonable suspicion."

In other words, the police can now stop you for no reason at all. Law enforcement just needs to add a sinister context to your behavior, and off you go to jail. The court endorsed this expansion of aggressive police behavior in USA v. Cindy Lee Westhoven, No. 13-2065.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/larry-bodine/federal-court-the-police-_b_5223918.html

48 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Federal Court: The Police Can Stop and Search You for Behaving Innocently (Original Post) Ichingcarpenter May 2014 OP
Typical BlindTiresias May 2014 #1
No reason drivers should be exempt from "stop and frisk." Downwinder May 2014 #2
it should apply to no one. n/t 2pooped2pop May 2014 #12
^^^ This^^^ truebrit71 May 2014 #15
Yeah, well that's the way they do it in Russia.. so ya know. we're down with that. 2banon May 2014 #46
I have been told by local law enforcement that, Downwinder May 2014 #47
I can believe that.. 2banon May 2014 #48
I draw the line at random colonoscopy Fairgo May 2014 #3
They actually have random colonoscopies in New Mexico Nevernose May 2014 #30
What the HELL? woo me with science May 2014 #4
As a retired truck driver, I've known this for years. B Calm May 2014 #5
"Reasonable suspicion" is an oxymoron. Scuba May 2014 #6
The first thing I did was look to see if this was "The Onion." Brigid May 2014 #7
That's a trifle hyperbolic to say 'off you go to jail'. randome May 2014 #8
Publisher of the National Trial Lawyer Association or randome? Ichingcarpenter May 2014 #9
It's nice of the HuffPo alarmists to leave out this key section of the ruling: JJChambers May 2014 #10
Reasonable Suspicion to stop, yes. The search? Not so much. X_Digger May 2014 #11
you don't have to actually violate any laws 2pooped2pop May 2014 #14
A drug dog alert is PC to search JJChambers May 2014 #20
The ends justifies the means, eh? X_Digger May 2014 #21
She was trafficking marijuana; apparently their reasonable suspicion was reasonable JJChambers May 2014 #22
Which isn't an answer to my question. What was the RS for the drug dog? X_Digger May 2014 #23
I read it prior to this forum discussion; seems reasonable to me, and to the court, too. JJChambers May 2014 #24
So to confirm: You're cool with acne + nervous driver + tinted windows + two cell phones being RS? X_Digger May 2014 #26
I think you're confused JJChambers May 2014 #38
We're not talking about the stop, we're talking about the search. *sigh* See post 11. X_Digger May 2014 #39
I think you're even more confused JJChambers May 2014 #40
And what was the PC for calling the k-9 unit and detaining the person until then? (A search, btw.) X_Digger May 2014 #41
You should quit before you dig yourself deeper into your hole JJChambers May 2014 #42
Detaining a motorist to wait for a dog is a search, absent specific RS. X_Digger May 2014 #45
*tap* *tap* *tap* Is this thing on? X_Digger May 2014 #34
You omit this: Vattel May 2014 #13
It adds to reasonable suspicion; I thought the search was the result of a drug dog alert ? JJChambers May 2014 #19
Yes, but the use of the dog was itself a search. Vattel May 2014 #29
Actually running a dog around the exterior isn't a search and if the dog alerts JJChambers May 2014 #35
Nope. It depends on the circumstances. Vattel May 2014 #36
A sniff still isn't a search, it's a sniff JJChambers May 2014 #43
A sniff has been ruled by SCOTUS to be a search Vattel May 2014 #44
Almost every car on the road in Ohio is going 10 miles over the speed limit Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2014 #31
The drug dog alert justified the search, not the speeding JJChambers May 2014 #32
Might as well just view cops as the enemy. Lizzie Poppet May 2014 #16
Nope...we're not a police state davidn3600 May 2014 #17
Remember when judges thought the Constitution was more than a piece of paper? Octafish May 2014 #18
Message auto-removed Name removed May 2014 #25
What the fuck? onecaliberal May 2014 #27
They hate us for our WUT? Blue Owl May 2014 #28
Thought crime ... aggiesal May 2014 #33
It just gets worse and worse... ileus May 2014 #37

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
1. Typical
Sun May 4, 2014, 04:05 AM
May 2014

I'm no longer surprised by the trajectory of the emergent police state. Can't wait to see this get turned over to the SCOTUS and have it 5-4'ed.

Downwinder

(12,869 posts)
2. No reason drivers should be exempt from "stop and frisk."
Sun May 4, 2014, 04:27 AM
May 2014

Applies to pedestrians, air travelers, rail and bus passengers, why not autos and trucks?

 

2banon

(7,321 posts)
46. Yeah, well that's the way they do it in Russia.. so ya know. we're down with that.
Mon May 5, 2014, 02:25 AM
May 2014

The Stasi didn't have anything on what we've got going.. yeah we're cool with that.

Downwinder

(12,869 posts)
47. I have been told by local law enforcement that,
Mon May 5, 2014, 03:15 AM
May 2014

"Any pedestrian should expect to be stopped and IDed."

I guess in this day and age it is suspicious to be walking or too poor or disabled to have a car.

I can't speak for Russia or the Stasi but a fellow from Romania tells me that our Police thugs are worse than Ceaușescu's Police thugs.

 

2banon

(7,321 posts)
48. I can believe that..
Mon May 5, 2014, 11:01 AM
May 2014

I forgot to insert the sarcasm coda in my previous post, but I take it that you got it..

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
8. That's a trifle hyperbolic to say 'off you go to jail'.
Sun May 4, 2014, 09:13 AM
May 2014

LE should always have reasonable suspicion to stop someone but that's not the same as arresting someone and having a captain or a DA or a judge decide you should be imprisoned.

I mean, I agree this is an egregious decision but the hyperbole is too much, isn't it?
[hr][font color="blue"][center]A 90% chance of rain means the same as a 10% chance:
It might rain and it might not.
[/center][/font][hr]

Ichingcarpenter

(36,988 posts)
9. Publisher of the National Trial Lawyer Association or randome?
Sun May 4, 2014, 09:18 AM
May 2014

I'll go with Larry.



Larry Bodine is the Publisher of The National Trial Lawyers - http://www.thenationaltriallawyers.org/legal-news-for-consumers. A lawyer and journalist, he is the former Editor in Chief of Lawyers.com and American Bar Association Journal.

 

JJChambers

(1,115 posts)
10. It's nice of the HuffPo alarmists to leave out this key section of the ruling:
Sun May 4, 2014, 09:23 AM
May 2014
Beyond the reasonable suspicion based on Agent Semmerling’s stated reasons for stopping Ms. Westhoven, a traffic violation also supported reasonable suspicion for the stop. Agent Semmerling testified that after he turned around to follow Ms. Westhoven, he paced her at 70 miles per hour. The speed limit in the area was 60 miles per hour. “An observed traffic violation or a reasonable suspicion of such a violation under state law plainly justifies a stop.”


HuffPo is becoming a joke and shouldn't be considered reliable.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
11. Reasonable Suspicion to stop, yes. The search? Not so much.
Sun May 4, 2014, 09:43 AM
May 2014
https://www.ca10.uscourts.gov/opinions/13/13-2065.pdf

Give that a read. Fucking ridiculous. Acne + tinted windows + two cell phones + nervous talking to border patrol? Well hell, that's reasonable suspicion for a search!

 

2pooped2pop

(5,420 posts)
14. you don't have to actually violate any laws
Sun May 4, 2014, 10:09 AM
May 2014

they will just say you did and in court the police always tell the truth.

 

JJChambers

(1,115 posts)
20. A drug dog alert is PC to search
Sun May 4, 2014, 11:58 AM
May 2014

And I would say the alert was founded given the presence of the drugs that were then located in the vehicle.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
21. The ends justifies the means, eh?
Sun May 4, 2014, 12:01 PM
May 2014

What was the RS for calling the canine unit?

The agent didn't smell pot (at least not according to his testimony.)

Nervous driver + acne + tinted windows + two cell phones. That's what it boils down to.

If you're cool with that being good enough for the cops to toss your car, we're done talking.

 

JJChambers

(1,115 posts)
22. She was trafficking marijuana; apparently their reasonable suspicion was reasonable
Sun May 4, 2014, 12:10 PM
May 2014

They were right.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
23. Which isn't an answer to my question. What was the RS for the drug dog?
Sun May 4, 2014, 12:13 PM
May 2014

I linked you to the decision further up.

Go ahead, find it.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
26. So to confirm: You're cool with acne + nervous driver + tinted windows + two cell phones being RS?
Sun May 4, 2014, 01:09 PM
May 2014

That's hunky dory to you?

 

JJChambers

(1,115 posts)
38. I think you're confused
Sun May 4, 2014, 10:16 PM
May 2014

You claim that acne, nervousness, tinted windows and two cell phones were the basis of the reasonable suspicion. The reasonable suspicion to justify the stop was, according to the court, none of those things. Here's what the court had to say:

2. Analysis
The district court concluded Agent Semmerling had objectively reasonable suspicion to justify stopping Ms. Westhoven. Based on the totality of the circumstances we agree. The reasonable suspicion factors here included: (1) the stop location’s characteristics, including proximity to the border; (2) traffic patterns on the road; (3) Ms.Westhoven’s travelling during the border patrol shift change; and (4) Ms. Westhoven’s driving behavior and vehicle characteristics.

First, Ms. Westhoven was driving in a relatively mountainous area 40-45 miles away from the U.S./Mexico border. Agent Semmerling, from his three years on the job, knew this stretch of road, because of its terrain, proximity to the border, and lack of border checkpoints, had high activity for drug and undocumented immigrant smuggling. Agent Semmerling testified this road is one of the only ones leading from Douglas, Arizona, a border town known for smuggling, that does not have a border checkpoint. Thus, smugglers attempting to avoid the Border Patrol’s detection frequent this road.

Second, Agent Semmerling knew out-of-state drivers rarely used the road. Ms. Westhoven’s license plates indicated her truck was registered in Tucson, Arizona. The agent also knew that travelling on this road was particularly unusual for a Tucson driver because it added approximately 100 miles to the drive. The more direct routes had border checkpoints. These facts indicated smuggling activity.

Third, Border Patrol agents changed shifts between 6:00 p.m. and 8:00 p.m., and Agent Semmerling stopped Ms. Westhoven at 7:45 p.m. Smugglers frequently exploited that two-hour window. See Arvizu, 534 U.S. at 277.

Fourth, Agent Semmerling noticed as Ms. Westhoven was driving past him that she appeared stiff with elbows locked and hands in the ten-and-two position on the steering wheel. After he turned around, he had to drive significantly faster to catch up, indicating she increased her speed by an estimated 10 or more miles per hour after passing him. As he approached her vehicle from behind but before he turned on his lights, she abruptly hit her brakes.

1 These circumstances can contribute to reasonable suspicion depending on context. See Arvizu, 534 U.S. at 275-76 (“We think it quite reasonable that a driver’s slowing down, stiffening of posture, and failure to acknowledge a sighted law enforcement officer might well be unremarkable in one instance (such as a busy San Francisco highway) while quite unusual in another (such as a remote portion of rural southeastern Arizona).”). The dark tinted windows on Ms. Westhoven’s truck raised Agent Semmerling’s suspicion that she might be concealing something or someone in the back of her truck. This case is similar to Arvizu. Driving stiffly, having tinted windows, slowing down when seeing law enforcement, and driving in an out-of-the-way area may be innocent conduct by themselves. But when taken together along with driving a vehicle with out-of-state plates in a mountainous smuggling corridor 40-45 miles away from the border, we conclude Agent Semmerling had reasonable suspicion Ms. Westhoven was involved in smuggling activity. “It was reasonable for [Agent Semmerling] to infer from his observations, his registration check, and his experience as a border patrol agent that 1 Agent Semmerling testified that when he caught up to Ms. Westhoven, he paced her at 70 miles per hour and the speed limit was 60 miles per hour. Although Ms. Westhoven’s driving behavior can factor into reasonable suspicion, because border patrol agents do not have jurisdiction over New Mexico traffic laws, a traffic violation such as speeding cannot form the sole basis of reasonable suspicion. See 8 C.F.R. § 287.8(c)(2)(i) (“An arrest shall be made only when the designated immigration officer has reason to believe that the person to be arrested has committed an offense against the United States or is an alien illegally in the United States.”); United States v. Barron- Cabrera, 119 F.3d 1454, 1456, 1461 (10th Cir. 1997) (finding that a defendant’s traffic violations only “partially satisf[ied] the ‘driver’s behavior’ prong of Brignoni-Ponce”). [Ms. Westhoven] had set out . . . [on a] route used by smugglers to avoid the [border] checkpoint[s]” for a criminal purpose. Arvizu, 534 U.S. at 277.

Beyond the reasonable suspicion based on Agent Semmerling’s stated reasons for stopping Ms. Westhoven, a traffic violation also supported reasonable suspicion for the stop. Agent Semmerling testified that after he turned around to follow Ms. Westhoven, he paced her at 70 miles per hour. The speed limit in the area was 60 miles per hour. “An observed traffic violation or a reasonable suspicion of such a violation under state law plainly justifies a stop.” United States v. Gregoire, 425 F.3d 872, 876 (10th Cir. 2005) (citing United States v. Botero-Ospina, 71 F.3d 783, 787 (10th Cir. 1995) (enbanc)). “Once an officer observes a traffic or equipment violation, a Terry stop is objectively justified, regardless of the detaining officer’s subjective motives.” United States v. Winder, 557 F.3d 1129, 1135 (10th Cir. 2009) (holding that a stop was reasonable based on an observed speeding violation even though the officer justified the
stop on other grounds) (quotations omitted).

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
39. We're not talking about the stop, we're talking about the search. *sigh* See post 11.
Sun May 4, 2014, 10:28 PM
May 2014

Unless you think RS for a stop is the same as RS for a search, now?

Free clue: it isn't. Keep reading the decision.

 

JJChambers

(1,115 posts)
40. I think you're even more confused
Sun May 4, 2014, 11:36 PM
May 2014

The search was based on probable cause, not reasonable suspicion. A drug dog alert is probable cause; it is well-established law.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
41. And what was the PC for calling the k-9 unit and detaining the person until then? (A search, btw.)
Sun May 4, 2014, 11:42 PM
May 2014

What, you think that RS for a stop is the same as PC for a search?!?

 

JJChambers

(1,115 posts)
42. You should quit before you dig yourself deeper into your hole
Sun May 4, 2014, 11:50 PM
May 2014

An officer does not need PC to utilize a K9. If a K9 alerts to the presence of drugs, that alert gives the officer probable cause to conduct a search. The courts have consistently ruled that an officer can run a K9 around a vehicle during the course of a routine traffic stop for no reason at all. Additionally, as is the case here, an officer may briefly extend the duration of a routine traffic stop to await the arrival of a K9 even after the routine stop would normally have been over, with the presence of reasonable suspicion. The opinion of the court in this case is that there was plenty of reasonable suspicion to briefly prolong the encounter.

This is all fairly well established case law; the outcome of this case should surprise no one.

X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
45. Detaining a motorist to wait for a dog is a search, absent specific RS.
Mon May 5, 2014, 12:13 AM
May 2014

See Illinois v Caballes. If it had been a k-9 unit that pulled the motorist over, or the k-9 unit showed up during the stop, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Read the text here-

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=000&invol=03-923

A seizure that is justified solely by the interest in issuing a warning ticket to the driver can become unlawful if it is prolonged beyond the time reasonably required to complete that mission. In an earlier case involving a dog sniff that occurred during an unreasonably prolonged traffic stop, the Illinois Supreme Court held that use of the dog and the subsequent discovery of contraband were the product of an unconstitutional seizure. People v. Cox, 202 Ill. 2d 462, 782 N. E. 2d 275 (2002). We may assume that a similar result would be warranted in this case if the dog sniff had been conducted while respondent was being unlawfully detained.


Lawful detention would be with reasonable suspicion.

during the course of a routine traffic stop


Except, the CBP agent wasn't writing a speeding ticket, was he?

Additionally, as is the case here, an officer may briefly extend the duration of a routine traffic stop to await the arrival of a K9 even after the routine stop would normally have been over, with the presence of reasonable suspicion.


What RS was articulated by the officer?

Acne + nervous driver + tinted windows + two cell phones.

And you've circled right back to the original question.

Are you cool with acne + nervous driver + tinted windows + two cell phones being grounds for a search?




X_Digger

(18,585 posts)
34. *tap* *tap* *tap* Is this thing on?
Sun May 4, 2014, 03:26 PM
May 2014

You have a couple of questions pending.

1. What was the reasonable suspicion for calling the k-9 unit?

2. Are you cool with the cops turning out your car for acne + nervous + two cell phones + tinted windows?


Waiting with bated breath.

 

Vattel

(9,289 posts)
13. You omit this:
Sun May 4, 2014, 10:09 AM
May 2014

"Although Ms. Westhoven’s driving behavior can factor into reasonable suspicion, because border patrol
agents do not have jurisdiction over New Mexico traffic laws, a traffic violation such as
speeding cannot form the sole basis of reasonable suspicion."

You also ignore the search, which would have made the founders spin in their graves.

 

JJChambers

(1,115 posts)
19. It adds to reasonable suspicion; I thought the search was the result of a drug dog alert ?
Sun May 4, 2014, 11:55 AM
May 2014

And they found drugs, no? Enough to constitute trafficking?

 

Vattel

(9,289 posts)
29. Yes, but the use of the dog was itself a search.
Sun May 4, 2014, 02:03 PM
May 2014

And the court should have ruled that it was an unconstitutional search.

 

JJChambers

(1,115 posts)
35. Actually running a dog around the exterior isn't a search and if the dog alerts
Sun May 4, 2014, 03:39 PM
May 2014

THEN a search can be conducted. This is all well established law.

 

Vattel

(9,289 posts)
36. Nope. It depends on the circumstances.
Sun May 4, 2014, 03:46 PM
May 2014

See Illinois v Caballes. If a car pulled over for a traffic violation is delayed longer than necessary so that a dog can be brought in to do a sniff, then it is a search. In the case at hand, the border patrol officer delayed held the vehicle so that a dog could be brought to the scene to do the search.

 

JJChambers

(1,115 posts)
43. A sniff still isn't a search, it's a sniff
Sun May 4, 2014, 11:54 PM
May 2014

And officers can legally extend traffic stops to await the arrival of a K9 with articulable reasonable suspicion. Which this officer had.

 

Vattel

(9,289 posts)
44. A sniff has been ruled by SCOTUS to be a search
Mon May 5, 2014, 12:03 AM
May 2014

in certain circumstances, and for very good reasons. And as the requirement of probable cause is replaced with a reasonable suspicion standard and then reasonable suspicion devolves into "Gee, she seemed really nervous, and she had acne scars and her hands were at ten and two on the steering wheel, etc," we see the gradual loss of our once robust fourth amendment rights.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
31. Almost every car on the road in Ohio is going 10 miles over the speed limit
Sun May 4, 2014, 02:53 PM
May 2014

at some point. Generally, the highway patrol ignore you until at least you hit 11 mph over. But even doing 75 in a 65, there will be cars passing you as if you're standing still.

So maybe it justifies a speeding ticket, but not a search.

Response to Ichingcarpenter (Original post)

onecaliberal

(32,916 posts)
27. What the fuck?
Sun May 4, 2014, 01:31 PM
May 2014

We have to get some Ds on these federal benches before they deem breathing a federal crime. The fucking republicans really are trying to turn this country communist. No wonder they are rushing to defend Putin.

aggiesal

(8,935 posts)
33. Thought crime ...
Sun May 4, 2014, 03:18 PM
May 2014

Hollywood and True life merge in Minority Report.

They can now arrest you for a future crime.

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